Is this the dumbest thing imaginable or what?
yes
it is, actually:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUyzUdRR8y4V3tM4AKYqU4uQjqF2lIB1JlSLdqHfE6aawTcdjghA)
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/project_syndicate/2013/03/earth_hour_is_all_wrong_we_need_more_electricity_not_less.html
QuoteAt the same time, another 1 billion people will participate in "Earth Hour" by turning off their lights from 8:30-9:30.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:32:44 AM
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/project_syndicate/2013/03/earth_hour_is_all_wrong_we_need_more_electricity_not_less.html
Okay, Tim is bad enough, but not you now.
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:18:44 AM
it is, actually:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUyzUdRR8y4V3tM4AKYqU4uQjqF2lIB1JlSLdqHfE6aawTcdjghA)
I know you are new to the West and all that, but do you really buy that?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 21, 2013, 04:37:18 AM
QuoteAt the same time, another 1 billion people will participate in "Earth Hour" by turning off their lights from 8:30-9:30.
:lmfao:
To be fair, at least a billion people won't be using electric lights on Saturday night.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 04:47:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:18:44 AM
it is, actually:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUyzUdRR8y4V3tM4AKYqU4uQjqF2lIB1JlSLdqHfE6aawTcdjghA)
I know you are new to the West and all that, but do you really buy that?
don't tell me you dont see the similarities between the "oh we are sinners" culture of Earth Hour and other similar shit, and good old Christian "oh we are sinners" shit?
Why do you even bother responding to Raz?
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:05:56 AM
Is this the dumbest thing imaginable or what?
What Mart, no poll this year? :P
http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,7265.msg396338.html
:D
Same reason as last year, too - HR at my firm sending bullshit e-mails. :P
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 05:12:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 04:47:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:18:44 AM
it is, actually:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUyzUdRR8y4V3tM4AKYqU4uQjqF2lIB1JlSLdqHfE6aawTcdjghA)
I know you are new to the West and all that, but do you really buy that?
don't tell me you dont see the similarities between the "oh we are sinners" culture of Earth Hour and other similar shit, and good old Christian "oh we are sinners" shit?
No, not really. At least not any more then any other idea which views certain acts as positive and other acts as negative.
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 05:21:48 AM
Why do you even bother responding to Raz?
The same reason we respond to eastern European yokels?
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 06:53:04 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 05:12:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 04:47:33 AM
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2013, 04:18:44 AM
it is, actually:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUyzUdRR8y4V3tM4AKYqU4uQjqF2lIB1JlSLdqHfE6aawTcdjghA)
I know you are new to the West and all that, but do you really buy that?
don't tell me you dont see the similarities between the "oh we are sinners" culture of Earth Hour and other similar shit, and good old Christian "oh we are sinners" shit?
No, not really. At least not any more then any other idea which views certain acts as positive and other acts as negative.
well, your loss I guess
Do you regard the strict adherence to free market principles, so called "free market fundamentalism", similar to religion?
I think we have this thread every year with predictable results.
In any event if earth hour coincides with a NCAA game the electrical use in my house will continue unabated.
Anything can be treated like a religion when beliefs are based on faith instead of proofs.
There's nothing intrinsic to the opinion that a free market delivers superior outcomes that makes it like a religion.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 02:54:02 PM
Anything can be treated like a religion when beliefs are based on faith instead of proofs.
There's nothing intrinsic to the opinion that a free market delivers superior outcomes that makes it like a religion.
Thats nice but it has nothing to do with the NCAA tournament.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 02:54:02 PM
Anything can be treated like a religion when beliefs are based on faith instead of proofs.
There's nothing intrinsic to the opinion that a free market delivers superior outcomes that makes it like a religion.
I dunno, the Austrian school seems to eschew mathematical models and empirical testing. This rejection of scientific means seems similar to religion.
However, the point of calling environmental ideas a "religion" is a way for people to rationalize the rejection of scientific studies. Ideologies such as libertarianism is badly undermined by things like climate change. So labeling such it "luddism", or "religious fundamentalism", helps a person ignore information that is damaging to their ideology and still feel rational.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
I dunno, the Austrian school seems to eschew mathematical models and empirical testing. This rejection of scientific means seems similar to religion.
Economics that relies on historical comparison rather than data analysis is not limited to the Austrian school. Keynes was not a model builder and tester, neither was John Kenneth Galbraith.
QuoteHowever, the point of calling environmental ideas a "religion" is a way for people to rationalize the rejection of scientific studies. Ideologies such as libertarianism is badly undermined by things like climate change. So labeling such it "luddism", or "religious fundamentalism", helps a person ignore information that is damaging to their ideology and still feel rational.
That is one possible motivation, out of many, for a person to label environmentalism a religion. I label certain environmentalists religious when they are more concerned about the means than they are about the ends--for example if they oppose offsets or sinks or the like because it's not pure and esthetic enough.
Totally no clue what you mean by libertarianism being undermined by climate change. Because it's an externalilty?
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 02:54:02 PM
Anything can be treated like a religion when beliefs are based on faith instead of proofs.
There's nothing intrinsic to the opinion that a free market delivers superior outcomes that makes it like a religion.
I dunno, the Austrian school seems to eschew mathematical models and empirical testing. This rejection of scientific means seems similar to religion.
However, the point of calling environmental ideas a "religion" is a way for people to rationalize the rejection of scientific studies. Ideologies such as libertarianism is badly undermined by things like climate change. So labeling such it "luddism", or "religious fundamentalism", helps a person ignore information that is damaging to their ideology and still feel rational.
:yes:
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
Ideologies such as libertarianism is badly undermined by things like climate change.
Not really. A Libertarian would just demonstrate how government policies and incentives encouraged pollution and how the problem would be far less with freedom and stuff.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 03:20:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
I dunno, the Austrian school seems to eschew mathematical models and empirical testing. This rejection of scientific means seems similar to religion.
Economics that relies on historical comparison rather than data analysis is not limited to the Austrian school. Keynes was not a model builder and tester, neither was John Kenneth Galbraith.
QuoteHowever, the point of calling environmental ideas a "religion" is a way for people to rationalize the rejection of scientific studies. Ideologies such as libertarianism is badly undermined by things like climate change. So labeling such it "luddism", or "religious fundamentalism", helps a person ignore information that is damaging to their ideology and still feel rational.
That is one possible motivation, out of many, for a person to label environmentalism a religion. I label certain environmentalists religious when they are more concerned about the means than they are about the ends--for example if they oppose offsets or sinks or the like because it's not pure and esthetic enough.
Totally no clue what you mean by libertarianism being undermined by climate change. Because it's an externalilty?
Does Keynesian economics use mathematical models? Which environmental "ends" in particular worry you? The reason that libertarianism is undermined is because one of the central concepts, "I should be able to do what I want so long as I doesn't harm others" breaks down. So yeah, it's an "externality", thing.
Quote from: Valmy on March 21, 2013, 03:23:14 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
Ideologies such as libertarianism is badly undermined by things like climate change.
Not really. A Libertarian would just demonstrate how government policies and incentives encouraged pollution and how the problem would be far less with freedom and stuff.
Yes, blaming the government is the favored solution to all libertarian problems, ideological or practical. In this case they often blame governments for financing studies in the first place!
Many people, Keynesians among them, have tested his theories against data. He personally did not AFAIK, which does not invalidate his work.
I didn't say any enviromental ends worry me. You misread my post.
"As long as I doesn't [sic] harm others." That seems relevant to externalities.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 03:31:06 PM
Yes, blaming the government is the favored solution to all libertarian problems, ideological or practical. In this case they often blame governments for financing studies in the first place!
Wait why is global warming a Libertarian problem that they must solve? Last I checked pollution has tended to be low in societies experiencing anarchy :P
If everyone lived on a 20-acre ranch in Idaho, global warming would be welcome.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 21, 2013, 04:20:49 PM
If everyone lived on a 20-acre ranch in Idaho, global warming would be welcome.
:lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 03:33:30 PM
Many people, Keynesians among them, have tested his theories against data. He personally did not AFAIK, which does not invalidate his work.
I didn't say any enviromental ends worry me. You misread my post.
"As long as I doesn't [sic] harm others." That seems relevant to externalities.
I didn't disagree with you on the externalities. You are sort of dodging the question about the Autrians and the Keynesians. The Keynesians do place importance on mathematical models and empirical evidence. The Austrians do not. Do you disagree with this? The Austrians prefer a type of deductive reasoning, sort of like the method for proving god exists. It's closer to philosophy and religion then it is the world of science. Libertarians tend to view themselves as rationalists and see scientific and industrial process as good. I agree with them on that to a certain extent. However, environmental studies cause conflict here, hence peculiar effort to label climate science which gives them results they don't like a "religion" or "luddism".
Are there ill informed hardline environmental activists that make everyone look silly? Yes, of course. Everyone has that.
No single person has much of an impact on climate.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 05:11:52 PM
The Keynesians do place importance on mathematical models and empirical evidence. The Austrians do not.
Some do, actually. Horowitz, for instance. But you're right in that it doesn't tend to be a strength of the Austrian school.
I think it's silly to blanket-dislike an entire school of economics, however. The Austrians have put forth some pretty dead-on stuff, like opportunity cost. Likewise with the Keynesians.
In the end, though, economics is more like an art than a science. Oftentimes it's like performance art. :D
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 05:11:52 PM
I didn't disagree with you on the externalities. You are sort of dodging the question about the Autrians and the Keynesians. The Keynesians do place importance on mathematical models and empirical evidence. The Austrians do not. Do you disagree with this? The Austrians prefer a type of deductive reasoning, sort of like the method for proving god exists. It's closer to philosophy and religion then it is the world of science. Libertarians tend to view themselves as rationalists and see scientific and industrial process as good. I agree with them on that to a certain extent. However, environmental studies cause conflict here, hence peculiar effort to label climate science which gives them results they don't like a "religion" or "luddism".
Are there ill informed hardline environmental activists that make everyone look silly? Yes, of course. Everyone has that.
The Austrians are dead Raz.
Did their writing depend on empirical evidence? Not the one book that I've (partially) read. Neither did Keynes' General Theory. Nor did Adam Smith, nor David Ricardo. Don't quote me on it, but I think econometrics is a relatively recent invention.
I don't know how to respond to your observation that "the libertarians" "label climate science as religion."
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 05:53:13 PM
Don't quote me on it, but I think econometrics is a relatively recent invention.
*shrug* It's been around since the late '20s.
The problems with econometrics, like a lot of things, have had less to do with econometrics itself and more with 1) starting from flawed premises (which causes problems in any statistical inference), 2) cherry-picking results, and 3) politicizing based on those cherry-picked results. It's plagued by the same bugbears that plague statistics in general.
Quote from: fahdiz on March 21, 2013, 05:56:51 PM
The problems with econometrics, like a lot of things, have had less to do with econometrics itself and more with 1) starting from flawed premises (which causes problems in any statistical inference), 2) cherry-picking results, and 3) politicizing based on those cherry-picked results. It's plagued by the same bugbears that plague statistics in general.
And one of the beauties of econometrics is there are hundreds of thousands of people chomping at the bit to punch holes in your flawed model.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
And one of the beauties of econometrics is there are hundreds of thousands of people chomping at the bit to punch holes in your flawed model.
Oh, absolutely! That's the great thing about math; it's open to very sophisticated peer review.
The unfortunate thing is that often by the time the holes have been punched laypeople have already been swayed one way or another, seeking their confirmation bias.
Quote from: fahdiz on March 21, 2013, 06:10:38 PM
Oh, absolutely! That's the great thing about math; it's open to very sophisticated peer review.
The unfortunate thing is that often by the time the holes have been punched laypeople have already been swayed one way or another, seeking their confirmation bias.
Eh, can you give me an example? I'm stumped trying to think of a case of the econometric coefficient making it into the public discourse.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 21, 2013, 05:53:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 05:11:52 PM
I didn't disagree with you on the externalities. You are sort of dodging the question about the Autrians and the Keynesians. The Keynesians do place importance on mathematical models and empirical evidence. The Austrians do not. Do you disagree with this? The Austrians prefer a type of deductive reasoning, sort of like the method for proving god exists. It's closer to philosophy and religion then it is the world of science. Libertarians tend to view themselves as rationalists and see scientific and industrial process as good. I agree with them on that to a certain extent. However, environmental studies cause conflict here, hence peculiar effort to label climate science which gives them results they don't like a "religion" or "luddism".
Are there ill informed hardline environmental activists that make everyone look silly? Yes, of course. Everyone has that.
The Austrians are dead Raz.
Did their writing depend on empirical evidence? Not the one book that I've (partially) read. Neither did Keynes' General Theory. Nor did Adam Smith, nor David Ricardo. Don't quote me on it, but I think econometrics is a relatively recent invention.
I don't know how to respond to your observation that "the libertarians" "label climate science as religion."
You are dodging the question here, Yi. I'm not talking about the founders, I'm talking about the school. Does Austrian economics enshew mathematical models and empirical evidence? If so does this make them different then some other economic schools?
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 07:27:17 PM
You are dodging the question here, Yi. I'm not talking about the founders, I'm talking about the school. Does Austrian economics enshew mathematical models and empirical evidence? If so does this make them different then some other economic schools?
I'm not dodging the question Raz, and if you continue with the combative tone the discussion is over.
I don't who "the school" is beyond Hayek and the other guy is I think is dead.
Seriously?
Quote from: fahdiz on March 21, 2013, 05:51:48 PM
I think it's silly to blanket-dislike an entire school of economics, however. The Austrians have put forth some pretty dead-on stuff, like opportunity cost. Likewise with the Keynesians.
What about Marxism. Or the Cambodian skull based economy school. :P
Stimulus for a skull-based economy: Ban contraception and subsidize machetes. :P
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2013, 07:56:52 PM
What about Marxism. Or the Cambodian skull based economy school. :P
Marx made some useful observations.
Quote from: Martinus on March 21, 2013, 04:05:56 AM
Is this the dumbest thing imaginable or what?
When the Ley Lines energize, you wont have to worry about it.
Raz took my comment, misinterpreted it, then baited Yi into debating an idiocy.
god. damn.
Quote from: Tamas on March 22, 2013, 03:24:27 AM
Raz took my comment, misinterpreted it, then baited Yi into debating an idiocy.
god. damn.
Oh, and how should I have interpreted it?
I concentrated on the silly repent-your-sin-so-you-can-consume-like-a-mofo-the-other-364-days issue at hand, and didn't make your sweeping generalizations.
Yeah, it was silly for you to post that. Made you look like a fool. I'd avoid posting such inane arguments again.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 22, 2013, 06:08:03 AM
Yeah, it was silly for you to post that. Made you look like a fool. I'd avoid posting such inane arguments again.
Physician, heal thyself.
Daaaaaaamn. Tamas got served.
Fortunately it's this Saturday rather than next, or it'd have been slap-bang in the middle of the Doctor Who Easter special and no-one in the UK would have switched off anything.
Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2013, 06:48:45 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 22, 2013, 06:08:03 AM
Yeah, it was silly for you to post that. Made you look like a fool. I'd avoid posting such inane arguments again.
Physician, heal thyself.
I was wondering how that my work on an internet forum. I came up with "poster, debate thyself."
Quote from: Brazen on March 22, 2013, 07:52:33 AM
Fortunately it's this Saturday rather than next, or it'd have been slap-bang in the middle of the Doctor Who Easter special and no-one in the UK would have switched off anything.
A girl I know was wearing a Hello Kitty-themed Dr. Who sweatshirt the other day. It was like a clash of civilizations.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:07:42 AM
Quote from: Brazen on March 22, 2013, 07:52:33 AM
Fortunately it's this Saturday rather than next, or it'd have been slap-bang in the middle of the Doctor Who Easter special and no-one in the UK would have switched off anything.
A girl I know was wearing a Hello Kitty-themed Dr. Who sweatshirt the other day. It was like a clash of civilizations.
Hittable?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:07:42 AM
A girl I know was wearing a Hello Kitty-themed Dr. Who sweatshirt the other day. It was like a clash of civilizations.
Admiral Togo wore one at the battle of Tsushima.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 10:24:09 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:07:42 AM
A girl I know was wearing a Hello Kitty-themed Dr. Who sweatshirt the other day. It was like a clash of civilizations.
Admiral Togo wore one at the battle of Tsushima.
Hittable?
Not by the Russians.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
:lol:
I suppose you could hit her with a variety of items found around the house, Ed.
:lol: