This guy's so full of shit. Trying to help him my ass.
That front page makes the Daily Mail look restrained.
http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2012/12/04/15676204-just-crazy-outrage-on-the-web-over-photo-capturing-subway-death?lite
Quote'Just crazy': Outrage on the Web over photo capturing subway death
By Scott Stump, TODAY contributor
A photo on the cover of Tuesday's New York Post depicting a man struggling to climb off a subway track before he was fatally struck by a train has drawn heated reactions — specifically chastising the paper and the photographer. Editor's note: The image appears below, and some viewers may find it disturbing. Scroll down to see the picture, or navigate away from the page to avoid it.
Queens man Ki Suk Han, 58, died after he was pushed on the tracks by an unnamed attacker moments before an oncoming train arrived at the 49th Street N, R, Q subway platform in Manhattan on Monday afternoon, according to police. On Tuesday afternoon, police confirmed they had someone in custody in connection with the attack. The photographer who shot the chilling image, New York Post freelancer R. Umar Abbasi, has sparked outrage on social media from those wondering why he did not do something to help pull Han off the track instead of taking pictures.
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Story: Man questioned in case of NYC subway rider pushed to his death
Abbasi told the New York Post that he started running toward Han and hitting the flash on his camera while shooting photos, hoping to catch the attention of the train's driver.
"The most painful part was I could see him getting closer to the edge. He was getting so close,'' Abbasi told The Post. "And people were running toward him and the train. I didn't think about [the attacker] until after. In that moment, I just wanted to warn the train – to try and save a life."
In the Twitterverse and elsewhere, many are not buying that explanation. One is hard-pressed to find anyone defending Abbasi's actions.
Live Poll
Q: Should the photographer have put down the camera and helped Han?
Yes, he should have done more to help. 80%
No, he did what he could. 4%
Not sure; if I had been in his shoes, I might have frozen 17%
"Getting a conductor's attention with a flash — and maybe even blinding him with it — doesn't seem like the way you'd necessarily help someone that's clinging to the subway platform,'' wrote The Atlantic's Alexander Abad-Santos.
The New York Post's decision to run the photo at all, particularly on the cover with the headline "Doomed," has also been questioned online, given that it shows the final moments of a man's life. There also have been those defending Abbasi by saying not all of the facts are known yet and that the real culprit is the man who pushed Han on the tracks.
The perpetrator has been described as a panhandler who was cursing and intimidating strangers before Han went to try to calm him down. The man then flung Han on the tracks, police and witnesses told The Post.
Take a look at a sampling of reactions to the photo and tell us, what do you think the photographer should have done?
Front page can be looked at here.
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/A9RXxPBCcAArVIP.png
He had enough time to try and climb out, but no bystanders had time to save him? :mad: :(
The provider of that front-page photo pretty much just stood over the fallen old man taking pictures from beginning to death.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imediaethics.org%2Fckfinder%2Fuserfiles%2Fimages%2Flarger2.JPG&hash=9a03e6159a8a3da984891c9989fa3757180378f8)
He would've been better off keeping his mouth shut, rather than make some weak excuse about warning the train operator with a flash. Just again this shows how News Corp employs the utter dregs of humanity.
This wouldn't have happened if Han had shot first.
Quote from: Syt on December 05, 2012, 01:20:42 AM
This wouldn't have happened if Han had shot first.
:lol: :pinch:
Photographs everywhere are scum. Assholes are more likely to take a picture then help you. If I ever see one in distress I'm gonna take pictures of them.
;)
Quote from: DGuller on December 05, 2012, 01:19:45 AM
He would've been better off keeping his mouth shut, rather than make some weak excuse about warning the train operator with a flash. Just again this shows how News Corp employs the utter dregs of humanity.
you can count on them to milk this story too. ;)
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 05, 2012, 08:21:03 AM
Photographs everywhere are scum. Assholes are more likely to take a picture then help you. If I ever see one in distress I'm gonna take pictures of them.
;)
A photograph in distress?
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 08:40:23 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 05, 2012, 08:21:03 AM
Photographs everywhere are scum. Assholes are more likely to take a picture then help you. If I ever see one in distress I'm gonna take pictures of them.
;)
A photograph in distress?
Yes. The odds say they must have car accidents too.
:secret: I think you mean photographers.
:P
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 08:43:02 AM
:secret: I think you mean photographers.
:P
:lol:
I knew there was something I just could not find it.
By the way, if the photographer was really just taking photos then he has some gall:
http://news.yahoo.com/suspect-fatal-nyc-subway-push-implicates-self-072505541.html
QuoteHe said he was shocked that people nearer to the victim did not try to help in the 22 seconds before the train struck.
"It took me a second to figure out what was happening ... I saw the lights in the distance. My mind was to alert the train," Abbasi said.
"The people who were standing close to him ... they could have moved and grabbed him and pulled him up. No one made an effort," he added.
IIRC, police said the old man was on the tracks for up to one-and-a-half minutes.
These stories always piss me right off. I'm 100% sure i would have helped the man, so would any of you guys, no?
So what the hell is going on in these folks' minds? I just don't get it.
Quote from: Zoupa on December 05, 2012, 02:15:40 PM
These stories always piss me right off. I'm 100% sure i would have helped the man, so would any of you guys, no?
So what the hell is going on in these folks' minds? I just don't get it.
The photographer is thinking, "$$$$$$$$$$"
Everyone else just didn't wanna get involved.
You have to get involved, a man is about to die.
Is this a NY thing, where everybody is fucking dead inside?
Quote from: Zoupa on December 05, 2012, 02:19:54 PM
You have to get involved, a man is about to die.
Is this a NY thing, where everybody is fucking dead inside?
I'm not sure how I would have reacted. If the crazy person was still there, I doubt I would have gotten close so as not to get my own chance to be pushed on the tracks as well.
Are there any good samaritan laws in NY? I'm pretty much certain this journalist would have been arrested for non-assisting a person in lethal danger here.
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 02:29:09 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on December 05, 2012, 02:19:54 PM
You have to get involved, a man is about to die.
Is this a NY thing, where everybody is fucking dead inside?
I'm not sure how I would have reacted. If the crazy person was still there, I doubt I would have gotten close so as not to get my own chance to be pushed on the tracks as well.
That's actually what I've been wondering. I haven't heard if the crazy guy left right away, or if he hung around to watch.
I'd hope that I would go help, but there are an awful lot of factors that none of us know. On the face of it, yeah, I'd jump in and help, but if no one helped, there has to be other factors that we're missing.
As for the NY thing comment, that's a bunch of bullshit. Between 9/11 and Sandy, it's obvious that New Yorkers are more than willing to go above and beyond to help others. I just have to believe that there's a reason no one helped this man, and we just haven't been given enough information yet.
In panic mode, many people froze or ran away from the commotion. Or took pictures.
After pushing the old man, the attacker immediately fled.
Quote from: Drakken on December 05, 2012, 03:02:01 PM
Are there any good samaritan laws in NY? I'm pretty much certain this journalist would have been arrested for non-assisting a person in lethal danger here.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/10/no-duty-to-rescue-rule-court-holds-that-new-york-transit-workers-had-no-obligation-to-help-woman-being-raped-in-station/
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:10:04 PM
As for the NY thing comment, that's a bunch of bullshit. Between 9/11 and Sandy, it's obvious that New Yorkers are more than willing to go above and beyond to help others. I just have to believe that there's a reason no one helped this man, and we just haven't been given enough information yet.
I think PV might have the right of it...because yeah New Yorkers aren't actually callous in a crisis.
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:10:04 PM
As for the NY thing comment, that's a bunch of bullshit. Between 9/11 and Sandy, it's obvious that New Yorkers are more than willing to go above and beyond to help others. I just have to believe that there's a reason no one helped this man, and we just haven't been given enough information yet.
In typical north american cities, people do not really notice the others who need help. In Montreal, it's nobody's business if a pimp is beating his girl, if a woman is lying on the iced sidewalk unmaintened by the city's workers. They don't even call the cops when they uncover massive fraud/corruption because it's not their job to do so.
I simply think people noticed a fight, maybe heard some noice, but instincts tell them it's not their business, they wait for the train to come, that's al.
Quote from: viper37 on December 05, 2012, 03:22:29 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 05, 2012, 03:10:04 PM
As for the NY thing comment, that's a bunch of bullshit. Between 9/11 and Sandy, it's obvious that New Yorkers are more than willing to go above and beyond to help others. I just have to believe that there's a reason no one helped this man, and we just haven't been given enough information yet.
In typical north american cities, people do not really notice the others who need help. In Montreal, it's nobody's business if a pimp is beating his girl, if a woman is lying on the iced sidewalk unmaintened by the city's workers. They don't even call the cops when they uncover massive fraud/corruption because it's not their job to do so.
I simply think people noticed a fight, maybe heard some noice, but instincts tell them it's not their business, they wait for the train to come, that's al.
New York isn't really like a typical North American city. ;)
Just the other day I was walking down the street and this girl started shrieking. Everyone nearby stopped to make sure she was okay (turns out she was just being a pain in the ass...).
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:20:30 PM
Quote from: Drakken on December 05, 2012, 03:02:01 PM
Are there any good samaritan laws in NY? I'm pretty much certain this journalist would have been arrested for non-assisting a person in lethal danger here.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/10/no-duty-to-rescue-rule-court-holds-that-new-york-transit-workers-had-no-obligation-to-help-woman-being-raped-in-station/
Wow. Just wow.
Quote from: Zoupa on December 05, 2012, 02:15:40 PM
So what the hell is going on in these folks' minds? I just don't get it.
"I am not a licensed or certified Asian Dude Picker-Upper. I do not want to be sued."
Quote from: garbon on December 05, 2012, 03:20:30 PM
Quote from: Drakken on December 05, 2012, 03:02:01 PM
Are there any good samaritan laws in NY? I'm pretty much certain this journalist would have been arrested for non-assisting a person in lethal danger here.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/10/no-duty-to-rescue-rule-court-holds-that-new-york-transit-workers-had-no-obligation-to-help-woman-being-raped-in-station/ (http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/10/no-duty-to-rescue-rule-court-holds-that-new-york-transit-workers-had-no-obligation-to-help-woman-being-raped-in-station/)
After her case was thrown out, she came forward publicly to tell her story: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/30105703/?GT1=43001#.UL-wIIM0WSo (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/30105703/?GT1=43001#.UL-wIIM0WSo)
The rapist was never arrested.
Woman Sought After 2nd Fatal Shove Onto Subway Tracks This Month
This time, an Indian-American by a Hispanic woman.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/nyregion/man-pushed-to-his-death-under-train-in-queens.html
Watch your back Garbie
There were three incidents on Vienna's U6 line recently.
1: a guy corners a girl in an otherwise empty car and chokes/rapes her for a few stops, and flees when other passengers get on the train. He was apprehended the next day. Police say he's no stranger to them.
2: a guy follows women out of the U6, rapes them, steals their money and cell phone, so they can't alert anyone. He's been apprehended shortly after police released photos of him from subway surveillance cameras.
3: two young men are harassing a girl verbally. A guy tells them to stop. They ignore him. The guy's wife tells them to get off the train and calls them rapists (in reference to #1). They take umbrage to that and beat up the wife who has to be hospitalized.
Subways :yuk:
The U6, running along the not so nice Gürtel for much of its track, has a bit of a reputation of being unpleasant. Subways in Vienna are normally fine to use, though, esp. in the inner city.
Because there's not a specific subway line for winners like myself, getting on a subway means you have to stand in close proximity to poors. No thanks. :(
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Because there's not a specific subway line for winners like myself, getting on a subway means you have to stand in close proximity to poors. No thanks. :(
I thought you liked slumming, Mr Gas Station Junk Food.
I always liked taking the train to work; could be a little hectic in the morning if it was raining, but I appreciated the down time coming home, a chance to decompress without having to deal with the stress of traffic going home.
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Because there's not a specific subway line for winners like myself, getting on a subway means you have to stand in close proximity to poors. No thanks. :(
Do they even have subways in Hicksville?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 29, 2012, 09:14:13 AM
I always liked taking the train to work; could be a little hectic in the morning if it was raining, but I appreciated the down time coming home, a chance to decompress without having to deal with the stress of traffic going home.
I agree. Commuter rail >>>>>>>>>> subways.
Use to take both from Deleware co into center city for work.
Subways :wub:
Any modern city that wants to be worthy of the name needs a decent rail system.
As for helping the guy who fell on the rails- yes, would be good. But there was a famous incident in japan a few years ago where two guys died trying to help someone who fell on the rails. One of them was a South Korean student and it became quite a big deal over there, they even made a film about his life.
Though the photographer should of course be shot out of a cannon.
Quote from: Phillip V on December 29, 2012, 04:00:25 AM
Woman Sought After 2nd Fatal Shove Onto Subway Tracks This Month
This time, an Indian-American by a Hispanic woman.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/nyregion/man-pushed-to-his-death-under-train-in-queens.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/nyregion/man-pushed-to-his-death-under-train-in-queens.html)
Woman being charged with murder as a hate crime. The guy was an Indian immigrant who spent years scrimping together money to recently open his own one-man printing shop; lived in a cramped apartment with three other immigrant men. American Dream ended. :(
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.newsday.com%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.4384565.1356730502%21%2FhttpImage%2Fimage.JPG_gen%2Fderivatives%2Fdisplay_600%2Fimage.JPG&hash=66e1aab6edb9be9d7c0ea963a176555843e6ba96)
Ahh, sucks
Quote from: Phillip V on December 29, 2012, 04:50:46 PM
Woman being charged with murder as a hate crime. The guy was an Indian immigrant who spent years scrimping together money to recently open his own one-man printing shop; lived in a cramped apartment with three other immigrant men. American Dream ended. :(
Being charged? Caught her already?
Quote from: DontSayBanana on December 30, 2012, 12:09:27 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on December 29, 2012, 04:50:46 PM
Woman being charged with murder as a hate crime. The guy was an Indian immigrant who spent years scrimping together money to recently open his own one-man printing shop; lived in a cramped apartment with three other immigrant men. American Dream ended. :(
Being charged? Caught her already?
Yep. http://news.yahoo.com/woman-charged-murder-ny-subway-shove-death-223404308.html
QuoteNEW YORK (AP) — A woman who told police she shoved a man to his death off a subway platform into the path of a train because she has hated Muslims since Sept. 11 and thought he was one was charged Saturday with murder as a hate crime, prosecutors said.
Erika Menendez was charged in the death of Sunando Sen, who was crushed by a 7 train in Queens on Thursday night, the second time this month a commuter has died in such a nightmarish fashion.
Menendez, 31, was awaiting arraignment on the charge Saturday evening, Queens District Attorney Richard A. Brown said. She could face 25 years to life in prison if convicted. She was in custody and couldn't be reached for comment, and it was unclear if she had an attorney.
Menendez, who was arrested after a tip by a passer-by who saw her on a street and thought she looked like the woman in a surveillance video released by police, admitted shoving Sen, who was pushed from behind, authorities said.
"I pushed a Muslim off the train tracks because I hate Hindus and Muslims ever since 2001 when they put down the twin towers I've been beating them up," Menendez told police, according to the district attorney's office.
Sen was from India, but police said it was unclear if he was Muslim, Hindu or of some other faith. The 46-year-old lived in Queens and ran a printing shop. He was shoved from an elevated platform on the 7 train line, which connects Manhattan and Queens. Witnesses said a muttering woman rose from her seat on a platform bench and pushed him on the tracks as a train entered the station and then ran off.
The two had never met before, authorities said, and witnesses told police they hadn't interacted on the platform.
Police released a sketch and security camera video showing a woman running from the station where Sen was killed.
Menendez was arrested by police earlier Saturday after a passer-by on a Brooklyn street spotted her and called 911. Police responded, confirmed her identity and took her into custody, where she made statements implicating herself in the crime, police spokesman Paul Browne said.
The district attorney said such hateful remarks about Muslims and Hindus could not be tolerated.
"The defendant is accused of committing what is every subway commuter's worst nightmare," he said.
On Dec. 3, another man was pushed to his death in a Times Square subway station. A photo of the man clinging to the edge of the platform a split second before he was struck by a train was published on the front page of the New York Post, causing an uproar about whether the photographer, who was catching a train, or anyone else should have tried to help him.
A homeless man was arrested and charged with murder in that case. He claimed he acted in self-defense and is awaiting trial.
It's unclear whether anyone tried — or could have tried — to help Sen on Thursday.
Mayor Michael Bloomberg on Friday urged residents to keep Sen's death in perspective as he touted new historic lows in the city's annual homicide and shooting totals.
"It's a very tragic case, but what we want to focus on today is the overall safety in New York," Bloomberg told reporters following a police academy graduation.
But commuters still expressed concern over subway safety and shock about the arrest of Menendez on a hate crime charge.
"For someone to do something like that ... that's not the way we are made," said David Green, who was waiting for a train in Manhattan. "She needs help."
Green said he caught himself leaning over the subway platform's edge and realized maybe he shouldn't do that.
"It does make you more conscious," he said of the deaths.
Such subway deaths are rare, but other high-profile cases include the 1999 fatal shoving of aspiring screenwriter Kendra Webdale by a former psychiatric patient. That case led to a state law allowing for more supervision of mentally ill people living outside institutions.
Sorry about the formatting.
Great, not only a bigot but an ill informed one. What do Hindus have to do with 9-11?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2012, 01:28:11 AM
Great, not only a bigot but an ill informed one. What do Hindus have to do with 9-11?
I'm guessing: They're brown people who don't believe in Baby Jesus?
Menendez? :bleeding:
Trains don't kill people, people do.
wow. here I thought this was just a new angle o . the story about the crazy black guy pushing th Chinese guy. it happened again eh...
pretty scary, the platforms at some of the Tokyo metrostations are tiny an scary enough
This is a seriously nasty crime. Which is why I really cannot fathom why young people think it's funny to mock shove people when trains are approaching the platform. When I get a good look of the retards I usually make them leave the train if they try and enter.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2012, 01:28:11 AM
Great, not only a bigot but an ill informed one. What do Hindus have to do with 9-11?
Why are you wasting time trying to rationalize the behavior of some racist lunatic?
Quote from: Liep on December 30, 2012, 07:22:00 AM
This is a seriously nasty crime. Which is why I really cannot fathom why young people think it's funny to mock shove people when trains are approaching the platform. When I get a good look of the retards I usually make them leave the train if they try and enter.
:blink:
Yeah, me neither.
Quote from: Phillip V on December 29, 2012, 04:50:46 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/nyregion/man-pushed-to-his-death-under-train-in-queens.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/nyregion/man-pushed-to-his-death-under-train-in-queens.html)
From that article:
Quote
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg said that such attacks were exceedingly rare, but that statistics did not diminish the tragedy for the families of the victims.
"You can say it's only two out of the three or four million people who ride the subway every day, but two is two too many," he told reporters.
"I don't know that there is a way to prevent things," Mr. Bloomberg said. "There is always going to be somebody, a deranged person."
He added: "We do live in a world where our subway platforms are open, and that's not going to change."
:huh: Why not? It's not like they didn't change it elsewhere...
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Depends on the trains I would imagine, some trains are not meant for precision breaking. Ours have a parking break which takes anywhere from 1 to 3 meters to have the train stop completely (3-5 in cold weather), that'd be hard to match with external doors.
I am sure that engineers can retrofit precision brakes on trains. It's just a question of whether it is worth it politically.
Nurse Bloomberg is more concerned about super size soft drinks than subway fixes.
Quote from: Caliga on December 30, 2012, 08:35:56 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2012, 01:28:11 AM
Great, not only a bigot but an ill informed one. What do Hindus have to do with 9-11?
Why are you wasting time trying to rationalize the behavior of some racist lunatic?
This is the M.O. I used when your wife was going on about getting rid of fiat money.
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2012, 12:47:20 PM
I am sure that engineers can retrofit precision brakes on trains. It's just a question of whether it is worth it politically.
A much more practical problem is that NYC doesn't have a single subway car type. The same station can be serviced by both 10-car trains of 60 foot cars and 8-car trains of 75 foot cars. Both 60 foot and 75 foot cars have four doors per side, so 10-car trains have 25% more doors and at different intervals. That alone would be deal breaker.
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2012, 11:26:21 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on December 29, 2012, 04:50:46 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/nyregion/man-pushed-to-his-death-under-train-in-queens.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/nyregion/man-pushed-to-his-death-under-train-in-queens.html)
From that article:
Quote
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg said that such attacks were exceedingly rare, but that statistics did not diminish the tragedy for the families of the victims.
"You can say it's only two out of the three or four million people who ride the subway every day, but two is two too many," he told reporters.
"I don't know that there is a way to prevent things," Mr. Bloomberg said. "There is always going to be somebody, a deranged person."
He added: "We do live in a world where our subway platforms are open, and that's not going to change."
:huh: Why not? It's not like they didn't change it elsewhere...
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Yup, that's changed in Korea since I got here.
Quote from: DGuller on December 30, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2012, 12:47:20 PM
I am sure that engineers can retrofit precision brakes on trains. It's just a question of whether it is worth it politically.
A much more practical problem is that NYC doesn't have a single subway car type. The same station can be serviced by both 10-car trains of 60 foot cars and 8-car trains of 75 foot cars. Both 60 foot and 75 foot cars have four doors per side, so 10-car trains have 25% more doors and at different intervals. That alone would be deal breaker.
Yeah the cost to standardize and align everything would be high.
Exactly, all those other places have money, and clean subways that people care about looking neat and tidy.
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 30, 2012, 08:44:19 PM
Exactly, all those other places have money, and clean subways that people care about looking neat and tidy.
Also, places like south korea have real problems with a demographic crisis/falling birth rate. New York City is one of the largest cities in the world and people from all over want to move there. People are more replaceable.
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 30, 2012, 08:44:19 PM
Exactly, all those other places have money, and clean subways that people care about looking neat and tidy.
As a point of comparison, Seoul's subway system opened in 1974. NYC subway opened in 1904, and various rail lines that were absorbed into it operated even earlier than that. It's a lot easier to start fresh than to keep polishing a turd.
But why does Moscow get to have a much nicer looking turd?
Quote from: DGuller on December 30, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2012, 12:47:20 PM
I am sure that engineers can retrofit precision brakes on trains. It's just a question of whether it is worth it politically.
A much more practical problem is that NYC doesn't have a single subway car type. The same station can be serviced by both 10-car trains of 60 foot cars and 8-car trains of 75 foot cars. Both 60 foot and 75 foot cars have four doors per side, so 10-car trains have 25% more doors and at different intervals. That alone would be deal breaker.
So? If there was political will to take care of the issue, a solution would be found. It's not like New York's metro has the most modern trains anyway, so maybe it's time to switch those. Or build doors that can cope with both kinds of trains. America can send robots to Mars, so I am sure you'll figure out subway double doors if you really want to.
Quote from: DGuller on December 30, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2012, 12:47:20 PM
I am sure that engineers can retrofit precision brakes on trains. It's just a question of whether it is worth it politically.
A much more practical problem is that NYC doesn't have a single subway car type. The same station can be serviced by both 10-car trains of 60 foot cars and 8-car trains of 75 foot cars. Both 60 foot and 75 foot cars have four doors per side, so 10-car trains have 25% more doors and at different intervals. That alone would be deal breaker.
it's the same in Tokyo. lots of different train types with doors in different places. still Though work is underway (and going really slow, becoming a bit of a political issue) to install barriers.
there are ways. some more expensive types of barrier that can accommodate different train types. trying to keep consistent types of train on each line. only using certain doors at certain stations, etc...
Quote from: Zanza on December 31, 2012, 04:43:42 AM
Quote from: DGuller on December 30, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 30, 2012, 12:47:20 PM
I am sure that engineers can retrofit precision brakes on trains. It's just a question of whether it is worth it politically.
A much more practical problem is that NYC doesn't have a single subway car type. The same station can be serviced by both 10-car trains of 60 foot cars and 8-car trains of 75 foot cars. Both 60 foot and 75 foot cars have four doors per side, so 10-car trains have 25% more doors and at different intervals. That alone would be deal breaker.
So? If there was political will to take care of the issue, a solution would be found. It's not like New York's metro has the most modern trains anyway, so maybe it's time to switch those. Or build doors that can cope with both kinds of trains. America can send robots to Mars, so I am sure you'll figure out subway double doors if you really want to.
Are you being serious? Are you really suggesting that NYC should replace virtually the entire rolling stock of its cars to prevent a couple of pushing deaths?
The NYC subway system has 660 miles of operational track, 468 stations, and runs 24 hours a day, 7 days/week, 365/6 days per year. It is only an NYC system: the commuter lines (which share funding with surrounding governments) are separate. Because it is an amalgamation of completely separate former private systems, nothing is standard including platform length, even the "lines" are not fixed and change around pretty regularly, and the switching system is a nightmare.
Enormous sums are being expended now to maintain, upgrade and repair ancient infrastructure; rationalize and automate the lines, and complete a major new line on the east side of Manhattan that was originally planned in the 1950s. So this kind of upgrade is not likely to be a priority for a while.
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 31, 2012, 01:23:28 AM
But why does Moscow get to have a much nicer looking turd?
Because Stalin could keep shooting until the turd came out just right.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 31, 2012, 10:08:44 AM
The NYC subway system has 660 miles of operational track, 468 stations, and runs 24 hours a day, 7 days/week, 365/6 days per year.
24 hours a day? Wow, the subway shuts down in Seoul and Tokyo at 12 and then open at 5:30 and 5 respectively.
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 31, 2012, 01:23:28 AM
But why does Moscow get to have a much nicer looking turd?
Probably because it was built as a show piece, and built to be one organized whole instead of instead of several independent lines cobbled together under one system.
Quote from: DGuller on December 31, 2012, 08:47:41 AM
Are you being serious? Are you really suggesting that NYC should replace virtually the entire rolling stock of its cars to prevent a couple of pushing deaths?
No, I am suggesting that Mayor Bloomberg's statement that nothing can be done to prevent stuff like this is dishonest. It would be possible to do something, he just thinks it's not worth it.
Obvious answer, not an engineering "nightmare." Set the barricade back from the lip of the platform, say 6-12 feet. Barricade doors locked until a train is at the platform.
I'd just like to point out that most rail stations in the US don't even allow passengers on the platform until a train's loading/offloading passengers.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 01, 2013, 11:47:17 AM
Obvious answer, not an engineering "nightmare." Set the barricade back from the lip of the platform, say 6-12 feet. Barricade doors locked until a train is at the platform.
My knowledge of New York platforms (I have seen Crocodile Dundee) suggests that there isn't enough room for this.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 31, 2012, 10:08:44 AM
The NYC subway system has 660 miles of operational track, 468 stations, and runs 24 hours a day, 7 days/week, 365/6 days per year. It is only an NYC system: the commuter lines (which share funding with surrounding governments) are separate. Because it is an amalgamation of completely separate former private systems, nothing is standard including platform length, even the "lines" are not fixed and change around pretty regularly, and the switching system is a nightmare.
Enormous sums are being expended now to maintain, upgrade and repair ancient infrastructure; rationalize and automate the lines, and complete a major new line on the east side of Manhattan that was originally planned in the 1950s. So this kind of upgrade is not likely to be a priority for a while.
How does the non-fixed lines thing work?
They don't have a set map ala the London Underground and most metros and instead work like a regular national train system?
Quote from: Tyr on January 01, 2013, 12:36:46 PM
How does the non-fixed lines thing work?
They don't have a set map ala the London Underground and most metros and instead work like a regular national train system?
There is map, but the routes change at nights, weekends, and holidays. They also shift around periodically depending on construction and maintenance and ridership levels. The bigger lines that tourists might use have more stability for their Manhattan segments, at least during the day.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 31, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
24 hours a day?
Yes.
Obviously this creates unique issues for maintenance and upgrades that most other systems don't face.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 01, 2013, 11:47:17 AM
Obvious answer, not an engineering "nightmare." Set the barricade back from the lip of the platform, say 6-12 feet. Barricade doors locked until a train is at the platform.
I'd just like to point out that most rail stations in the US don't even allow passengers on the platform until a train's loading/offloading passengers.
As is usually the case, the ideas you come with are unorthodox and not something I could've ever imagined someone could come up with, but I see a couple of problems. The first problem is that the back walls of the many open stations are going to interfere with the barricades if you're going to stick with 6-12 foot distance. They can't easily go up and down if there is a retaining wall in the way.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthemidwoodblog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F10%2Fmid_AvenueM-450x337.jpg&hash=bd0a873f26673e0484776745cdd74855730d9d1a)
It's going to be even worse for double-sided platforms, as passengers would be forced to stand on parallel tracks while the barricade is up, which presents its own safety issues.
Secondly, subway is not exactly like passenger rail. There are some differences in operating parameters between subways and trains. No subway system that I know of waits until the train comes in to let passengers on the platform.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on January 01, 2013, 11:47:17 AM
I'd just like to point out that most rail stations in the US don't even allow passengers on the platform until a train's loading/offloading passengers.
I don't think that's true. Maybe at stations in major cities.
Yeah I've never seen that policy.
Was just reading a story on a young woman who stumbled and fell onto the tracks in front of train...it also that there is about one fatality a week due to a subway accident.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 01, 2013, 01:13:02 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 31, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
24 hours a day?
Yes.
Obviously this creates unique issues for maintenance and upgrades that most other systems don't face.
If Tokyo and Seoul can get by with shutting it down at night, I'd think that NYC could do so far at least a few hours (1:30-4:30 maybe) in order to do some regularly scheduled maintenance.
No thanks.
Tokyo and Seoul are bigger and drunker cities than New York, if they can handle it then so can New York.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 01, 2013, 10:17:28 PM
Tokyo and Seoul are bigger and drunker cities than New York, if they can handle it then so can New York.
Solutions from homogenous, mindless hive mind cultures have no place in the Big Apple. So fughedabboudit.
The newer Jubilee Line platforms have a separate platform barrier that aligns with the train doors, presumably to stop drunken MPs staggering onto the line at Westminster.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg809.imageshack.us%2Fimg809%2F8096%2F800pxwestminstertubesta.jpg&hash=1e19088652b9d75c1286b30ffeb3c76323a8074d)
Interestingly, I first saw an arrangement like this in Moscow in the mid-80s.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 01, 2013, 09:46:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 01, 2013, 01:13:02 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 31, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
24 hours a day?
Yes.
Obviously this creates unique issues for maintenance and upgrades that most other systems don't face.
If Tokyo and Seoul can get by with shutting it down at night, I'd think that NYC could do so far at least a few hours (1:30-4:30 maybe) in order to do some regularly scheduled maintenance.
I wish Tokyo wouldnt.
Thats one of the big problems with Tokyo, the trains stop so darn early
But then they mostly are standard trains that people use, the metro isnt anywhere near as popular.
They seemed as packed as any line in Seoul and the Seoul metro has 7 million passengers every day.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 01, 2013, 09:46:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 01, 2013, 01:13:02 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 31, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
24 hours a day?
Yes.
Obviously this creates unique issues for maintenance and upgrades that most other systems don't face.
If Tokyo and Seoul can get by with shutting it down at night, I'd think that NYC could do so far at least a few hours (1:30-4:30 maybe) in order to do some regularly scheduled maintenance.
Tim, so as a result of some people being murdered by being shoved in front of trains, you are proposing NYC replacing all of its trains and shutting down the subway for several hours each night?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on January 02, 2013, 10:39:05 AM
Quote from: katmai on January 01, 2013, 09:03:40 PM
Yeah I've never seen that policy.
Ditto.
I've seen it at Penn Station in New York and and the downtown train station in SF. In the case of the latter, on NJ Transit, you don't even know what platform to go to until once the train is parked in the station.
Quote from: alfred russel on January 02, 2013, 10:27:10 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 01, 2013, 09:46:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 01, 2013, 01:13:02 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 31, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
24 hours a day?
Yes.
Obviously this creates unique issues for maintenance and upgrades that most other systems don't face.
If Tokyo and Seoul can get by with shutting it down at night, I'd think that NYC could do so far at least a few hours (1:30-4:30 maybe) in order to do some regularly scheduled maintenance.
Tim, so as a result of some people being murdered by being shoved in front of trains, you are proposing NYC replacing all of its trains and shutting down the subway for several hours each night?
Yeah, I wasn't really sure what issues he was trying to solve with his proposals.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 01, 2013, 09:46:06 PM
If Tokyo and Seoul can get by with shutting it down at night, I'd think that NYC could do so far at least a few hours (1:30-4:30 maybe) in order to do some regularly scheduled maintenance.
It's not called the City That Never Sleeps for nuttin'.
Seoul and Tokyo are still rocking at that time as well.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 02, 2013, 05:19:18 PM
Seoul and Tokyo are still rocking at that time as well.
so?
Quote from: garbon on January 02, 2013, 10:47:25 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 02, 2013, 10:27:10 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 01, 2013, 09:46:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 01, 2013, 01:13:02 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 31, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
24 hours a day?
Yes.
Obviously this creates unique issues for maintenance and upgrades that most other systems don't face.
If Tokyo and Seoul can get by with shutting it down at night, I'd think that NYC could do so far at least a few hours (1:30-4:30 maybe) in order to do some regularly scheduled maintenance.
Tim, so as a result of some people being murdered by being shoved in front of trains, you are proposing NYC replacing all of its trains and shutting down the subway for several hours each night?
Yeah, I wasn't really sure what issues he was trying to solve with his proposals.
Minsky said there were maintenance issues because of the 24hr run time. I'm saying running it that late is unnecessary.
I imagine that if they need to close a track for necessary maintenance, they simply do so, and post a pubic announcement.
They do that for 24-hour freeways all the time.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 02, 2013, 05:22:42 PM
Minsky said there were maintenance issues because of the 24hr run time. I'm saying running it that late is unnecessary.
You know what the riding rates are during those hours? If not, how can you possibly know what's necessary or unnecessary for NYC based on Seoul and Tokyo? Similar =/= same.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 02, 2013, 05:22:42 PM
I'm saying running it that late is unnecessary.
It's necessary to provide service for people who need intra-city transportation during those hours.
Quote from: Tonitrus on January 02, 2013, 05:24:20 PM
I imagine that if they need to close a track for necessary maintenance, they simply do so, and post a pubic announcement.
They do that for 24-hour freeways all the time.
Well no pubic announcement...:P
What they tried out recently and have seemed to like is being called Fastrack. Basically they will shutdown several stations on a particular line (in example in link they speak about 1-2-3), in the evening for a series of days. Posted well in advance so that everyone can plan accordingly / signs outside affected stations (and inside unaffected ones) relating alternate ways of getting around.
The benefit of this approach is that nearly all lines will still be operational at any given time but allows them concentrated chunks of time to do maintenance on a particular line.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/fastrack.htm
Yea I'm surprised that any major city would have their public transit systems shut down for part of the day.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 02, 2013, 05:22:42 PM
Minsky said there were maintenance issues because of the 24hr run time. I'm saying running it that late is unnecessary.
Minsky only said that in the context of discussing what an undertaking it would be to implement changes that Zanza thinks just like the political will to enact. Why 24/7 was just one small bit in that sentence.
QuoteThe NYC subway system has 660 miles of operational track, 468 stations, and runs 24 hours a day, 7 days/week, 365/6 days per year.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 02, 2013, 05:19:18 PM
Seoul and Tokyo are still rocking at that time as well.
And it fucking sucks when the subway shuts down.
I'm taking Tim's American card away from him. He's turned into a foriegner.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on January 02, 2013, 05:55:18 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 02, 2013, 05:19:18 PM
Seoul and Tokyo are still rocking at that time as well.
And it fucking sucks when the subway shuts down.
Yeah, New York has spoiled me on that. -_-
As it is usually the deciding factor in these cases... I am still trying to figure which of the systems must have better unions. :hmm:
Quote from: garbon on January 02, 2013, 05:33:03 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on January 02, 2013, 05:24:20 PM
I imagine that if they need to close a track for necessary maintenance, they simply do so, and post a pubic announcement.
They do that for 24-hour freeways all the time.
Well no pubic announcement...:P
What they tried out recently and have seemed to like is being called Fastrack. Basically they will shutdown several stations on a particular line (in example in link they speak about 1-2-3), in the evening for a series of days. Posted well in advance so that everyone can plan accordingly / signs outside affected stations (and inside unaffected ones) relating alternate ways of getting around.
The benefit of this approach is that nearly all lines will still be operational at any given time but allows them concentrated chunks of time to do maintenance on a particular line.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/fastrack.htm
I don't want a pubic announcement from some bureaucrat.
I wouldn't mind if it was from Martin O'Malley.
Quote from: Maximus on January 02, 2013, 05:39:22 PM
Yea I'm surprised that any major city would have their public transit systems shut down for part of the day.
They shut down in Boston every night, too.
Quote from: Caliga on January 03, 2013, 06:25:50 AM
Quote from: Maximus on January 02, 2013, 05:39:22 PM
Yea I'm surprised that any major city would have their public transit systems shut down for part of the day.
They shut down in Boston every night, too.
Isn't that typical of most cities?
Always surprised me that Boston's closed up, considering how big the city is. You'd think it'd be 24 hours, like New York's.
At least DC's stays open to 3am on the weekends.
Metro is open late on weekends but runs very intermittently. Sitting in a station 20 minutes waiting for a train completely kills your buzz.