Poll
Question:
Was the Waco Massacre a failure of the US law enforcement system?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 12
Option 2: No
votes: 10
I don't think it was, but was wondering what the popular opinion is.
Massacre? Perhaps you would like to elaborate?
My confidence in Mr. Reno remains absolute.
Quote from: Martinus on November 17, 2012, 03:38:54 AM
I don't think it was, but was wondering what the popular opinion is.
Depends on whether or not you hate government, and whether or not you think cult sieges should be allowed to go on forever with the cultists dictating the terms.
:hmm: No, I think it was a success actually.
When children get killed like that, you can't call it a success.
Now perhaps success was impossible by that standard, but sometimes you just can't win.
It was like Jonestown, dude. If Koresh had it his way nobody was leaving that compound alive.
Quote from: Caliga on November 17, 2012, 07:22:05 AM
If Koresh had it his way nobody was leaving that compound alive.
That's why you can't let them complete their terminal demands in a barricade crisis. He wanted time to "finish" writing his "revelations". That's always a bad sign in a hostage negotiation.
Quote from: Caliga on November 17, 2012, 07:22:05 AM
It was like Jonestown, dude. If Koresh had it his way nobody was leaving that compound alive.
Like I said, sometimes you just can't succeed.
I guess it depends how you define success. If you do the best job you can given the circumstances, I'd call that a success.
Quote from: Caliga on November 17, 2012, 08:22:41 AM
I guess it depends how you define success. If you do the best job you can given the circumstances, I'd call that a success.
Lo-ho-hoo... se-he-her!
Quote from: The Brain on November 17, 2012, 05:33:57 AM
My confidence in Mr. Reno remains absolute.
His imdb page is a bit of a trainwreck.
No. It was a failure in tactics and intel.
It was an OK glider, but I am not sure that it was ever used by law enforcement.
The Waco Rangers were an awful Mercenary unit.
:blurgh:
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 17, 2012, 12:37:33 PM
The Waco Rangers were an awful Mercenary unit.
It makes the Moscow theatre siege look like a success.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 17, 2012, 12:37:33 PM
The Waco Rangers were an awful Mercenary unit.
Maybe, but at least they were more legit than Wolf's Munch Dragoons.
Quote from: mongers on November 17, 2012, 12:40:26 PM
It makes the Moscow theatre siege look like a success.
Great concept. Poor execution.
Just like Ruby Ridge there were significant tactical errors that can clearly be laid at the feet of some of the guys running things. In fact they were some of the same people.
I don't take issue with the concept of the initial raid happening, or the later end to the siege. What I think was super-fail was the specific tactics they used when they tried to raid the compound in the first place and then the tactics they used to end the siege. The initial failed raid was particularly stupid, to be honest, and upon review there are glaring points where it seems the guys in charge had done little of the intelligence they should have done. The intelligence they did do was incompetent, they put an agent inside the compound as a "convert" who even moronic David Koresh knew was a government man from day one, and let him stay in the compound keeping that knowledge to himself.
Even the need for the initial raid probably could have been avoided, though, as part of its justification was Koresh rarely left the compound. In fact Koresh frequently left the compound, doing business with the cult's gun store it owned and etc, he could easily have been arrested individually on the outside.
I take issue with the word Massacre. If you commit suicide you can't be massacred.
I think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.
Quote from: Neil on November 17, 2012, 12:43:30 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 17, 2012, 12:37:33 PM
The Waco Rangers were an awful Mercenary unit.
Maybe, but at least they were more legit than Wolf's Munch Dragoons.
I was always fond of Snord's Irregulars.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 17, 2012, 04:52:47 PM
I think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.
Indians?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 17, 2012, 04:52:47 PM
I think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.
Actually no. I was enquiring whether people here share the notion (which I challenge) that an indiscriminate slaughter of extremists is not the right approach.
Personally, I think the outcome was favourable (compared to the alternatives).
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 17, 2012, 01:51:38 PM
Just like Ruby Ridge there were significant tactical errors that can clearly be laid at the feet of some of the guys running things. In fact they were some of the same people.
I don't take issue with the concept of the initial raid happening, or the later end to the siege. What I think was super-fail was the specific tactics they used when they tried to raid the compound in the first place and then the tactics they used to end the siege. The initial failed raid was particularly stupid, to be honest, and upon review there are glaring points where it seems the guys in charge had done little of the intelligence they should have done. The intelligence they did do was incompetent, they put an agent inside the compound as a "convert" who even moronic David Koresh knew was a government man from day one, and let him stay in the compound keeping that knowledge to himself.
Even the need for the initial raid probably could have been avoided, though, as part of its justification was Koresh rarely left the compound. In fact Koresh frequently left the compound, doing business with the cult's gun store it owned and etc, he could easily have been arrested individually on the outside.
Yeah, this is where I think the failure occured. After that point, I don't think that there was much of a better outcome possible.
Quote from: Admiral YiI think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.
Given that the Ruby Ridge guy was actually acquitted of the original charges that lead to the mess (IIRC he was convicted for failure to appear, but not any of the underlying charges) because the jury felt he had been entrapped by the government, I'd say a good case can be made that he was targetted because of his (admittedly extremist) views.
On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal. But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist). The child welfare stuff was a bogus
post hoc justification. Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.
What was the political fallout of Waco? The purpose of law enforcement is to protect the people in charge. Did it succeed this time?
Quote from: The Brain on November 18, 2012, 03:41:25 AM
What was the political fallout of Waco? The purpose of law enforcement is to protect the people in charge. Did it succeed this time?
Republicans got very angry. They got back at government workers in 1995.
Quote from: dps on November 18, 2012, 03:40:02 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 17, 2012, 01:51:38 PM
Just like Ruby Ridge there were significant tactical errors that can clearly be laid at the feet of some of the guys running things. In fact they were some of the same people.
I don't take issue with the concept of the initial raid happening, or the later end to the siege. What I think was super-fail was the specific tactics they used when they tried to raid the compound in the first place and then the tactics they used to end the siege. The initial failed raid was particularly stupid, to be honest, and upon review there are glaring points where it seems the guys in charge had done little of the intelligence they should have done. The intelligence they did do was incompetent, they put an agent inside the compound as a "convert" who even moronic David Koresh knew was a government man from day one, and let him stay in the compound keeping that knowledge to himself.
Even the need for the initial raid probably could have been avoided, though, as part of its justification was Koresh rarely left the compound. In fact Koresh frequently left the compound, doing business with the cult's gun store it owned and etc, he could easily have been arrested individually on the outside.
Yeah, this is where I think the failure occured. After that point, I don't think that there was much of a better outcome possible.
Quote from: Admiral YiI think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.
Given that the Ruby Ridge guy was actually acquitted of the original charges that lead to the mess (IIRC he was convicted for failure to appear, but not any of the underlying charges) because the jury felt he had been entrapped by the government, I'd say a good case can be made that he was targetted because of his (admittedly extremist) views.
On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal. But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist). The child welfare stuff was a bogus post hoc justification. Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.
I think the Ruby Ridge guy was targeted because local police were scared of him and asked the Feds to intervene. The Branch Davidians were a problem before hand. They had gotten into some kind of gun fight/grave robbery thing.
Quote from: dps on November 18, 2012, 03:40:02 AM
On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal. But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist). The child welfare stuff was a bogus post hoc justification. Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.
I thought they had some weapons that they converted to full auto?
Quote from: dps on November 18, 2012, 03:40:02 AM
On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal. But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).
Illegally modifying as many as 50 AR-15 upper receivers illegally was still illegal, as is attempting to illegally reverse inert hand grenades. The .50 cal may have been illegally acquired, considering none of the church members held the appropriate FFL paperwork.
QuoteThe child welfare stuff was a bogus post hoc justification. Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.
If you've ever read the affidavit for the original search warrant you'd know that's not the reason they were originally involved. That he was assbanging little girls was just icing, but not the cake.
And no, child sex abuse is not "strictly a state matter". Go to fucking law school.
I've been wondering in the years since the Waco thing why they never made a David Koresh biopic with Weird Al Yankovic in the lead role.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F0%2F01%2FDavid_Koresh.jpg&hash=3b7ea4123ebe7b3d76affcea827d33aff2e22180)
Nobody was coming out alive in that one.
Yeah, the Waco raid was about automatic weapons. The Branch Davidians had ordered a ton of AR-15s and also lower receivers that were frequently bought in combination with AR-15s to modify them for automatic fire, and then there was apparently a witness who had heard automatic weapons fire coming from the compound.
Ruby Ridge is a very problematic situation. A big part of why it's hard to feel any sympathy for the guy in that situation is he was a huge racist asshole with extremist views. But the initial charges against him were highly bogus. However, instead of going to court to fight those charges he simply refused to appear. I do not believe you can blame law enforcement for taking the position that failure to appear has to be rectified, they can't simply choose to let the guy stay in his house forever just because he thinks the charges against him are bogus. Even if those charges later are proven to be bogus.
Typically in such a situation, where sure the original charge was bogus but there was a legitimate valid warrant, there is no way you don't go to prison for life after you and your compatriots kill multiple Federal agents (you do not have a right to kill people to stop from serving you a warrant you feel is invalid.) But because of the rules of engagement the Feds used, the specific actions they took, and basically the fact that many of the higher ups began to basically lie about everything made it all but impossible to convict Weaver or Harris of any crime related to the siege itself. Weaver and his family actually ended up receiving millions of dollars in a settlement.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2012, 06:22:44 AM
Quote from: dps on November 18, 2012, 03:40:02 AM
On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal. But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).
Illegally modifying as many as 50 AR-15 upper receivers illegally was still illegal, as is attempting to illegally reverse inert hand grenades. The .50 cal may have been illegally acquired, considering none of the church members held the appropriate FFL paperwork.
<shrug> Apparantly, then there is some evidence that the firearms they were stockpiling were illegal. IMO, it doesn't really matter all that much--if the cops are serving a warrant on you, if the charges are false, you fight it in court, not open fire, so even if the weapons were legal, Koresh put himself clearly in the wrong there.
QuoteThe child welfare stuff was a bogus post hoc justification. Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.
QuoteIf you've ever read the affidavit for the original search warrant you'd know that's not the reason they were originally involved. That he was assbanging little girls was just icing, but not the cake.
That's why I said if was a bogus
post hoc justification by the Feds.
To be clear, I'm not saying that the accusastions of child abuse were bogus, I'm saying that the use of those accusations later by the Feds as a justification for the original raid was bogus.
QuoteAnd no, child sex abuse is not "strictly a state matter". Go to fucking law school.
Read the fucking Constitution. And even if it were a Federal matter, it wouldn't fall under ATF, now would it?
If the children were transported over state lines it would be a federal matter.
Quote from: dps on November 18, 2012, 11:45:14 AM
To be clear, I'm not saying that the accusastions of child abuse were bogus, I'm saying that the use of those accusations later by the Feds as a justification for the original raid was bogus.
They weren't used as excuses later; they were also in the original affidavit. Go read it. It's all near the end.
QuoteRead the fucking Constitution. And even if it were a Federal matter, it wouldn't fall under ATF, now would it?
I've read it. Your bullshit about anything "falling" under anybody isn't in there regarding the divvying up of criminal law.
What "falls" under any particular agency is only a matter of administration, not law. Federal, state or local, law enforcement is still law enforcement. That's like saying an ICE agent can't stop a rape in progress, or that multiple agencies can't work together in the same jurisdiction as task forces. Stop smoking so much dope.
QuoteStop smoking so much dope
But it's legal "here" in WA state now. :huh:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 18, 2012, 01:06:02 PM
Quote from: dps on November 18, 2012, 11:45:14 AM
To be clear, I'm not saying that the accusastions of child abuse were bogus, I'm saying that the use of those accusations later by the Feds as a justification for the original raid was bogus.
They weren't used as excuses later; they were also in the original affidavit. Go read it. It's all near the end.
QuoteRead the fucking Constitution. And even if it were a Federal matter, it wouldn't fall under ATF, now would it?
I've read it. Your bullshit about anything "falling" under anybody isn't in there regarding the divvying up of criminal law.
What "falls" under any particular agency is only a matter of administration, not law. Federal, state or local, law enforcement is still law enforcement. That's like saying an ICE agent can't stop a rape in progress, or that multiple agencies can't work together in the same jurisdiction as task forces. Stop smoking so much dope.
The Constitution only gives the Federal government the powers it specifically grants it, not general police powers. The states get those. Though, sadly, any more it seems like the Feds have any power they want, and the courts will just go along. After all, everything's commerce, right?
Forget commerce, "...to provide for the common defence and general welfare..." would work better. But the Constitution meddles pretty significantly into local criminal justice matters, at least as it pertains to how courts are to be conducted.
But police powers? The idea of a modern police force didn't exist at the time...they would usually utilized the "militia". One might then extrapolate from Section 8 that the FBI, et al, is effectively a permanent, Congressionally authorized "militia".
Though I won't defend the ATF, that organization should have been disbanded and rolled into the FBI a long time ago. Hell, if anything, we should only need one federal police agency. Roll it all into the US Marshal service.
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 18, 2012, 08:48:41 PM
Forget commerce, "...to provide for the common defence and general welfare..." would work better. But the Constitution meddles pretty significantly into local criminal justice matters, at least as it pertains to how courts are to be conducted.
At least the commerce clause isn't in the preamble. :P
Quote
Though I won't defend the ATF, that organization should have been disbanded and rolled into the FBI a long time ago. Hell, if anything, we should only need one federal police agency. Roll it all into the US Marshal service.
I like that idea.
Quote from: Tonitrus on November 18, 2012, 08:48:41 PM
Though I won't defend the ATF, that organization should have been disbanded and rolled into the FBI a long time ago. Hell, if anything, we should only need one federal police agency. Roll it all into the US Marshal service.
I abhor the concept of other agencies being reduced to the standards of the Famous But Incompetent.
Their missions may be questionable, but I'd take an ATF or a DEA guy over two dozen FBI retards.