Was the Waco Massacre a failure of the US law enforcement system?

[11B4V]

 

The Waco Rangers were an awful Mercenary unit.

[Ed Anger]

The Waco Rangers were an awful Mercenary unit.

Too nerdy of a reference? 

[mongers]

It makes the Moscow theatre siege look like a success.

[Neil]

The Waco Rangers were an awful Mercenary unit.

Maybe, but at least they were more legit than Wolf's Munch Dragoons.

[11B4V]

It makes the Moscow theatre siege look like a success.

Great concept. Poor execution.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Just like Ruby Ridge there were significant tactical errors that can clearly be laid at the feet of some of the guys running things. In fact they were some of the same people.

I don't take issue with the concept of the initial raid happening, or the later end to the siege. What I think was super-fail was the specific tactics they used when they tried to raid the compound in the first place and then the tactics they used to end the siege. The initial failed raid was particularly stupid, to be honest, and upon review there are glaring points where it seems the guys in charge had done little of the intelligence they should have done. The intelligence they did do was incompetent, they put an agent inside the compound as a "convert" who even moronic David Koresh knew was a government man from day one, and let him stay in the compound keeping that knowledge to himself.

Even the need for the initial raid probably could have been avoided, though, as part of its justification was Koresh rarely left the compound. In fact Koresh frequently left the compound, doing business with the cult's gun store it owned and etc, he could easily have been arrested individually on the outside.

[Razgovory]

I take issue with the word Massacre.  If you commit suicide you can't be massacred.

[Admiral Yi]

I think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.

[Tonitrus]

The Waco Rangers were an awful Mercenary unit.

Maybe, but at least they were more legit than Wolf's Munch Dragoons.

I was always fond of Snord's Irregulars.

[Razgovory]

I think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.

Indians?

[Martinus]

I think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.

Actually no. I was enquiring whether people here share the notion (which I challenge) that an indiscriminate slaughter of extremists is not the right approach.

Personally, I think the outcome was favourable (compared to the alternatives).

[dps]

Just like Ruby Ridge there were significant tactical errors that can clearly be laid at the feet of some of the guys running things. In fact they were some of the same people.

I don't take issue with the concept of the initial raid happening, or the later end to the siege. What I think was super-fail was the specific tactics they used when they tried to raid the compound in the first place and then the tactics they used to end the siege. The initial failed raid was particularly stupid, to be honest, and upon review there are glaring points where it seems the guys in charge had done little of the intelligence they should have done. The intelligence they did do was incompetent, they put an agent inside the compound as a "convert" who even moronic David Koresh knew was a government man from day one, and let him stay in the compound keeping that knowledge to himself.

Even the need for the initial raid probably could have been avoided, though, as part of its justification was Koresh rarely left the compound. In fact Koresh frequently left the compound, doing business with the cult's gun store it owned and etc, he could easily have been arrested individually on the outside.

Yeah, this is where I think the failure occured.  After that point, I don't think that there was much of a better outcome possible.

I think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.

Given that the Ruby Ridge guy was actually acquitted of the original charges that lead to the mess (IIRC he was convicted for failure to appear, but not any of the underlying charges) because the jury felt he had been entrapped by the government, I'd say a good case can be made that he was targetted because of his (admittedly extremist) views.

On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal.  But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).  The child welfare stuff was a bogus post hoc justification.  Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.

[The Brain]

What was the political fallout of Waco? The purpose of law enforcement is to protect the people in charge. Did it succeed this time?

[Razgovory]

What was the political fallout of Waco? The purpose of law enforcement is to protect the people in charge. Did it succeed this time?

Republicans got very angry.  They got back at government workers in 1995.

[Razgovory]

Just like Ruby Ridge there were significant tactical errors that can clearly be laid at the feet of some of the guys running things. In fact they were some of the same people.

I don't take issue with the concept of the initial raid happening, or the later end to the siege. What I think was super-fail was the specific tactics they used when they tried to raid the compound in the first place and then the tactics they used to end the siege. The initial failed raid was particularly stupid, to be honest, and upon review there are glaring points where it seems the guys in charge had done little of the intelligence they should have done. The intelligence they did do was incompetent, they put an agent inside the compound as a "convert" who even moronic David Koresh knew was a government man from day one, and let him stay in the compound keeping that knowledge to himself.

Even the need for the initial raid probably could have been avoided, though, as part of its justification was Koresh rarely left the compound. In fact Koresh frequently left the compound, doing business with the cult's gun store it owned and etc, he could easily have been arrested individually on the outside.

Yeah, this is where I think the failure occured.  After that point, I don't think that there was much of a better outcome possible.

I think the question Marty was trying to get at, and which he might have asked were he more intelligence, is whether Koresh's wacky cult, or the Ruby Ridge dude's political statements, were the true justification for law enforcement getting up in their faces in the first place, or whether their were legitimate concerns about child welfare and gun violations, with the cultiness and the Indian rights being totally incidental.

Given that the Ruby Ridge guy was actually acquitted of the original charges that lead to the mess (IIRC he was convicted for failure to appear, but not any of the underlying charges) because the jury felt he had been entrapped by the government, I'd say a good case can be made that he was targetted because of his (admittedly extremist) views.

On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal.  But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).  The child welfare stuff was a bogus post hoc justification.  Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.

I think the Ruby Ridge guy was targeted because local police were scared of him and asked the Feds to intervene.  The Branch Davidians were a problem before hand.  They had gotten into some kind of gun fight/grave robbery thing.