:Joos
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/14/15162504-israel-kills-hamas-military-chief-7-others-in-airstrike-campaign-officials-say?lite
Quote
Israel kills Hamas military chief, 7 others in airstrike campaign, officials say
By Lawahez Jabari, NBC News
Updated at 5:00 p.m. ET: TEL AVIV -- The head of the militant wing of the Palestinian Hamas movement and seven others were killed as Israel launched a series of airstrikes in Gaza Wednesday, officials said.
Hamas spokesman Fauazy Brehom told NBC News that Ahmed Jabari was killed in the attack by Israeli forces. Jabari was the most senior commander of Hamas' military wing, the Ezzidine Al-Qassam Brigades.
A statement from the Al-Qassam Brigades said that Israel had "opened the gates of hell."
In a frequently updated live blog chronicling the attacks, the Israel Defense Forces claimed it had targeted "dozens" of Hamas' medium-range underground rocket launch sites and other weapons storage facilities. The report said Israel had also intercepted 17 rockets fired from Gaza.
"If I were a senior Hamas activist - I would look for a place to hide," IDF spokesman Brgi. Gen. Yoav (Poly) Moredechai said in a statement published online.
Moredechai said the possibility of a ground invasion would not be ruled out, and emphasized that all options remain on the table. "Infantry brigades have been shifted in preparation for the operation," his statement read. "All options that allow us to cause seriously damage to Hamas and the other terrorist organizations are on the table."
A statement from the Israeli embassy blamed Hamas for launching 150 rockets at Israel's south over the past week.
"Israel has the right and duty to defend itself from terrorist attacks designed to kill thousands of its citizens," Israeli Ambassador to the United States Michael Oren said. "We are sending an unequivocal message that our citizens will not be hostage to terrorist missile fire and cross-border attacks. The scope of the IDF's defensive operation depends on Hamas and whether it takes the decision to cease firing missiles on our neighborhoods and homes."
Jabari is the most senior Hamas official to have died due to Israeli military action since the killing of Saeed Seyam four years ago.
Sources at the Kamal Adwan and Al-Shifa hospitals said a total of eight people had been killed and 80 injured.
A statement on the IDF website said that Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz had "approved an expansive strike against terrorist organizations in Gaza."
"As a part of the program, a short while ago, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) struck Ahmed al-Jabari and other senior officers of Hamas' Military Wing, who were involved in planning and implementing dozens of attacks, including the kidnapping of SFC [Israeli soldier] Gilad Shalit," it said.
The airstrike took place in central Gaza, according to the statement, which was headlined "Chief of Hamas' Military Wing Ahmed al-Jabari assassinated." The headline was later changed to "Senior Hamas operative targeted," and the statement dropped the reference to Shalit.
The statement quoted IDF spokesman Mordechai as saying military action began following the "intolerable situation in the south of the country, and seeks to harm terrorist organizations operating in the Gaza Strip."
'Forward base for Iran'
The IDF later announced it had begun "Operation Pillar of Defense." Israel confirmed there had been several airstrikes.
In another update, the statement said the IDF had "targeted a significant number of long range rockets sites ... owned by Hamas. This deals a significant blow to the terror organizations' underground rocket launching capabilities and munitions warehouses that are owned by Hamas and other terror organizations."
"The Gaza strip, has turned it into a forward base for Iran, firing rockets and carrying out terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens. The IDF will continue to target terrorist sites that are used to carry out terror attacks against Israeli citizens," it said.
"The IDF will continue to target sites that are used for carrying out terror attacks against the citizens of Israel while improving their daily security," it added.
An IDF statement Monday said more than 120 rockets fired from Gaza had hit Israel since Saturday and that the Israeli air force had responded with airstrikes on a number of sites.
Jabari had survived numerous assassination attempts in the past and had served close to a decade in an Israeli jail, according to NBC's Ayman Mohyeldin.
He was widely considered the second most important figure within Hamas' overall structure after Khaled Mishaal, the head of the organization's political bureau.
Jabari was instrumental in negotiations about the release of Shalit, Mohyeldin said. Jabari was rarely seen in public and even more seldom filmed but he was seen accompanying Shalit to the border crossing with Egypt ahead of his handover.
US reacts; Israeli ambassador leaves Egypt
U.S. State Department spokesman Mark Toner said the United States "strongly" condemns the rocket fire from Gaza into southern Israel.
"There is no justification for the violence that Hamas and other terrorist organizations are employing against the people of Israel," Toner's statement read. "We call on those responsible to stop these cowardly acts immediately. We support Israel's right to defend itself, and we encourage Israel to continue to take every effort to avoid civilian casualties."
Egypt's foreign minister called Israel's airstrikes on Gaza a dangerous escalation at a critical time for the region, and called on the Israeli government to quickly halt the offensive.
Egypt's ruling Freedom and Justice Party condemned the killing of Jabari, and said Israel was using the military operation as a card in its own political game, ahead of elections in January. The party called on the international community and Arab states to act immediately to stop the massacre against the Palestinian people, adding that Israel's attacks were meant to create instability in the region.
Airport sources in Egypt confirmed to NBC News that the Israeli ambassador and other Israelis were leaving Cairo Wednesday night.
The U.N. chief also called on Israel and Palestinian Hamas militants to prevent an escalation of hostilities, urging both sides to ensure civilians will be protected, a U.N. spokesman said Wednesday.
"The Secretary-General calls for an immediate de-escalation of tensions," U.N. spokesman Martin Nesirky said, adding that it was a reiteration of Ban's already-stated position.
"Both sides should do everything to avoid further escalation and they must respect their obligations under international humanitarian law to ensure the protection of civilians at all times," he told reporters.
:cheers:
QuoteA statement from the Al-Qassam Brigades said that Israel had "opened the gates of hell."
Interesting self-attribution of origin.
I caught the drone footage on tv. IT WAS AWESOME
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 14, 2012, 07:02:53 PM
I caught the drone footage on tv. IT WAS AWESOME
Yeah, it wasn't wheelchair spokes, but the flying car hood was spooge-worthy enough.
QuoteA statement from the Al-Qassam Brigades said that Israel had "opened the gates of hell."
I'm still unsure how HAMAS is going to step up the threat level from ethnic cleansing and genocide.
BTW, in recent Norway/Israel related news
- the media is covering the multiple children injured in the conflict
- researchers from PRIO (the Peace Research Institute of Oslo, founded by anti-semite and holocaust denier Johan Galtung) have already declared that Israel will not escalate to a full scale war
- the Norwegian FD has observed that Israel has a right to defend itself but..... etc.
- anti-semitic and former revolutionary maoist and convert to islam Trond Ali Linstad almost got the norwegian equivalent of the OBE before the mayor of oslo declared that he would under no circumstances hand it out. Presumably this was due to Ali Linstad's homophobia.
- The annual Kristallnacht memorial now has no jewish representation as an american jewish musician scheduled to play has backed out on the advice of the norwegian jewish congregation protesting anti-semitic and anti-zionist speakers.
- In the last few months studies on attitudes towards jews revealed that all 2000 norwegian jews have experienced anti-semetism and report a rate of 6000 incidents per month (yeah, that's 3 per jew per month on average).
- After a local Islamist group posted on facebook that they were getting hunting licences so they could shoot jews in norway it took a few weeks of public pressure to get a police guard for the synagogue and whatever joos call a sunday school. The islamists have been arrested. The islamist that did shoot at the oslo synagogue a few years ago is somewhere in pakistan training with the pakistan according to himself, although norwegian muslim sources say he's too much of a lazy twit to actually do any hard work.
It's like the shit hit the fan. The norwegian media is gearing up for war. I'm trying to keep the blood-pressure down as I read unverifiable assertions made by anti-israeli activists treated as true while verifiable statements by the official IDF spokesperson being treated as probably untrue hearsay and propaganda.
e.g. "Palestinian children injured in the bombing of civilian targets brought to hospital by crying mothers." and "The IDF claims that 70 "rockets" have been launched at a "major Israeli city" by "terrorists"."
Things are escalating quickly. An Israeli invasion maybe on the horizon.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/15/15182123-israel-three-civilians-killed-by-rockets-fired-from-gaza-as-violence-escalates?lite
damn, will Syria be busy looking like fighting the zionist pigdog capitalist evils or what?
Egypt recalled its ambassador to Israel. Not cool.
What is cool is the IDF using Twitter:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic3.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F50a3e320eab8ea581c000010-632-363%2Fidf-tweet.png%3FmaxX%3D591%26amp%3BmaxY%3D339&hash=d5ff398a08885e8bb6e5c4234471e5e1667ff20b)
Time to start yanking on egypt's short military logistical chain.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 15, 2012, 08:09:21 AM
Time to start yanking on egypt's short military logistical chain.
Yeah, I think it's time to go over the itemized shopping cart and start drawing lines through it.
this item is temporarily out of stock.
No rain checks
CURRENTLY OUT OF PRINT!
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 15, 2012, 08:04:50 AM
Egypt recalled its ambassador to Israel. Not cool.
What is cool is the IDF using Twitter:
Did you see Hamas's response? :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAJuxL.png&hash=40e20a0d5a47180513f2d32f9610cb0e49723053)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 15, 2012, 09:27:50 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 15, 2012, 08:04:50 AM
Egypt recalled its ambassador to Israel. Not cool.
What is cool is the IDF using Twitter:
Did you see Hamas's response? :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAJuxL.png&hash=40e20a0d5a47180513f2d32f9610cb0e49723053)
Yes, IDFSpokesperson is liveblogging the second gaza war.
If only there were a way to de-escalate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to just vicious exchanges of internet trolling.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 15, 2012, 08:04:50 AM
Egypt recalled its ambassador to Israel. Not cool.
Plus ca change, Mubarak did it relatively regularly too. It doesn't necessarily matter.
What does matter and is new is that Egypt's opened the Rafah crossing for wounded Palestinians.
Because of Israel's position I always feel that a lot of these wars serve the strategic interests of someone else (as in Israel can rarely strike pre-emptively or at a time of their choosing when they could have maximum effect against Hamas, so they're normally retaliating which I think is what Hamas and others want), which makes this sort of conflict particularly sad.
The IDF has adopted the hashtag #IsraelUnderFire :rolleyes:
Quote from: Brazen on November 15, 2012, 11:10:57 AM
The IDF has adopted the hashtag #IsraelUnderFire :rolleyes:
European antisemites. :rolleyes:
I agreed with this from Jeffrey Goldberg earlier - since then there have been rockets at Tel Aviv and three killed in South Israel, so all bets are off and an invasion's possible:
QuoteWhat Does the Gaza Attack Mean?
inShare
NOV 14 2012, 5:21 PM ET 45
So, weirdly, my advice to the Israelis to take a deep breath before taking a big swing at Gaza again was not heeded.
I'm on the road again -- I just got into a fight with a former head of the Pakistani ISI at a security conference here in Istanbul (the moderator of our panel was surprised, I think, that we got into a fight) that I can't tell you about because the aforementioned ISI chief declared that most of his remarks would be off the record. Suffice it to say I won the argument.
But I digress, and I don't have much time to post, but let me just ask one question: What is this Gaza conflagration about, exactly? Or let me rephrase the question: What are the goals of the Israeli counter-attack on Hamas? Right now, we're seeing, once again, a tactical response, provoked by a vile Hamas policy of acquiescing to, or even helping to launch, rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets. But what is the strategy? The fact remains that there is no long-term military solution to the challenge posed by Gaza, but the Israeli government doesn't want to acknowledge this.
There are enough weapons, and enough young men in Gaza ready to use those weapons, to make life miserable for millions of Israelis for years to come, barring a full-scale invasion by the IDF of Gaza that wipes out the entire military structure of Hamas. And good luck with that, by the way -- good luck to Bibi getting the world to acquiesce. Netanyahu's failure to convince the world that he is serious about compromise (he might have succeeded, given his Palestinian counterpart's own alternately lackadaisical and obstreperous approach to peace talks, if he wasn't hell-bent on growing settlements) means that he has no political capital to spend.
This operation will put President Obama in a tough spot, and remember, Netanyahu needs Obama for what he allegedly believes is the most important threat facing Israel. This operation also drives Egypt's president even further away from Israel (he wasn't close before but, like the Qataris, he might have been encouraged to to talk some sense to Hamas).
But it does help Netanyahu's reelection campaign, and, it must be acknowledged, it might set back Hamas in some ways, but only temporarily. Another big question, of course, is, will Hamas use its longer-range rockets to bring Tel Aviv into the fight? I don't think this is overly likely, because this would put immense pressure on Netanyahu to launch a massive retaliation, even invasion. Hamas doesn't want an Israeli invasion of Gaza right now. Its leaders are already surprised by the Israeli response, though I don't know why; have they not been paying attention?
Meanwhile, this gives Bashar al-Assad sufficient cover to kill even more of his citizens over the coming days. Keep an eye out for that.
More coming....
One thing that I hope is noticed in America is the amount of support the Obama Administration's given Israel in helping fund and build their Iron Dome system and in supplying it. Given Bibi's behaviour over the last four years, you'd never know.
Quote from: Brazen on November 15, 2012, 11:10:57 AM
The IDF has adopted the hashtag #IsraelUnderFire :rolleyes:
Yeah I mean the Canadians shoot 150 rockets at us at least once a week and you don't see us using hashtags.
#SiegeBreakerBreakingOutTheWineCoolers
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 15, 2012, 12:38:12 PM
I agreed with this from Jeffrey Goldberg earlier - since then there have been rockets at Tel Aviv and three killed in South Israel, so all bets are off and an invasion's possible:
QuoteWhat Does the Gaza Attack Mean?
inShare
NOV 14 2012, 5:21 PM ET 45
So, weirdly, my advice to the Israelis to take a deep breath before taking a big swing at Gaza again was not heeded.
I'm on the road again -- I just got into a fight with a former head of the Pakistani ISI at a security conference here in Istanbul (the moderator of our panel was surprised, I think, that we got into a fight) that I can't tell you about because the aforementioned ISI chief declared that most of his remarks would be off the record. Suffice it to say I won the argument.
But I digress, and I don't have much time to post, but let me just ask one question: What is this Gaza conflagration about, exactly? Or let me rephrase the question: What are the goals of the Israeli counter-attack on Hamas? Right now, we're seeing, once again, a tactical response, provoked by a vile Hamas policy of acquiescing to, or even helping to launch, rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets. But what is the strategy? The fact remains that there is no long-term military solution to the challenge posed by Gaza, but the Israeli government doesn't want to acknowledge this.
There are enough weapons, and enough young men in Gaza ready to use those weapons, to make life miserable for millions of Israelis for years to come, barring a full-scale invasion by the IDF of Gaza that wipes out the entire military structure of Hamas. And good luck with that, by the way -- good luck to Bibi getting the world to acquiesce. Netanyahu's failure to convince the world that he is serious about compromise (he might have succeeded, given his Palestinian counterpart's own alternately lackadaisical and obstreperous approach to peace talks, if he wasn't hell-bent on growing settlements) means that he has no political capital to spend.
This operation will put President Obama in a tough spot, and remember, Netanyahu needs Obama for what he allegedly believes is the most important threat facing Israel. This operation also drives Egypt's president even further away from Israel (he wasn't close before but, like the Qataris, he might have been encouraged to to talk some sense to Hamas).
But it does help Netanyahu's reelection campaign, and, it must be acknowledged, it might set back Hamas in some ways, but only temporarily. Another big question, of course, is, will Hamas use its longer-range rockets to bring Tel Aviv into the fight? I don't think this is overly likely, because this would put immense pressure on Netanyahu to launch a massive retaliation, even invasion. Hamas doesn't want an Israeli invasion of Gaza right now. Its leaders are already surprised by the Israeli response, though I don't know why; have they not been paying attention?
Meanwhile, this gives Bashar al-Assad sufficient cover to kill even more of his citizens over the coming days. Keep an eye out for that.
More coming....
One thing that I hope is noticed in America is the amount of support the Obama Administration's given Israel in helping fund and build their Iron Dome system and in supplying it. Given Bibi's behaviour over the last four years, you'd never know.
I've seen lots of commentary of this sort, and all of it is a waste of time - what these commentators eternally fail to realize is that local politics are local. Bibi, surprisingly enough, cares more about what Israeli voters think that what the rest of the world thinks, and so it is politically impossible for him to just sit back and do nothing in response to Hamas provocations (even if the rest of the world wants him too - and even if "doing nothing" is, objectively, the best policy).
Same would hold true for a US politician of course - try firing rockets at US cities and see what happens. Even if the best response would be "nothing".
Quote from: Valmy on November 15, 2012, 01:00:24 PM
Quote from: Brazen on November 15, 2012, 11:10:57 AM
The IDF has adopted the hashtag #IsraelUnderFire :rolleyes:
Yeah I mean the Canadians shoot 150 rockets at us at least once a week and you don't see us using hashtags.
Yeah but those were aimed at Detrot. You are luck we didn't send you the bill for civic improvements. :P
Looked it up today: Gaza is actually a smaller area than Vienna.
Quote from: Malthus on November 15, 2012, 01:54:11 PM
I've seen lots of commentary of this sort, and all of it is a waste of time - what these commentators eternally fail to realize is that local politics are local. Bibi, surprisingly enough, cares more about what Israeli voters think that what the rest of the world thinks, and so it is politically impossible for him to just sit back and do nothing in response to Hamas provocations (even if the rest of the world wants him too - and even if "doing nothing" is, objectively, the best policy).
That's a fair point but I think Goldberg's generally pretty good on Israeli politics and I know of no better writer on Israel-US relations.
Secondly it's not politically impossible for Bibi to sit back and do nothing because that's what he's done for most of this term - with a few brief exceptions - despite regular rocket assaults. It hasn't affected his political position. As you say, all politics is local and the failure of the Israeli centre and left, combined with his merger with Lieberman, have left him in a very strong position. There's been a lot more rockets fired in the last two weeks but still less than there was in October.
So the political necessity isn't there and the rationale for an Israeli response wasn't clear to me for the reasons Goldberg gives. The situation's changed today. A family were killed and rockets were launched at central Israel and the warning's gone off in Tel Aviv which are two things that Israel's always made clear they will retaliate over. Given that that's happened I think it's difficult to predict what we can expect but I wouldn't be surprised by an invasion.
Quote from: Viking on November 14, 2012, 08:20:07 PM
BTW, in recent Norway/Israel related news
- the media is covering the multiple children injured in the conflict
- researchers from PRIO (the Peace Research Institute of Oslo, founded by anti-semite and holocaust denier Johan Galtung) have already declared that Israel will not escalate to a full scale war
- the Norwegian FD has observed that Israel has a right to defend itself but..... etc.
- anti-semitic and former revolutionary maoist and convert to islam Trond Ali Linstad almost got the norwegian equivalent of the OBE before the mayor of oslo declared that he would under no circumstances hand it out. Presumably this was due to Ali Linstad's homophobia.
- The annual Kristallnacht memorial now has no jewish representation as an american jewish musician scheduled to play has backed out on the advice of the norwegian jewish congregation protesting anti-semitic and anti-zionist speakers.
- In the last few months studies on attitudes towards jews revealed that all 2000 norwegian jews have experienced anti-semetism and report a rate of 6000 incidents per month (yeah, that's 3 per jew per month on average).
- After a local Islamist group posted on facebook that they were getting hunting licences so they could shoot jews in norway it took a few weeks of public pressure to get a police guard for the synagogue and whatever joos call a sunday school. The islamists have been arrested. The islamist that did shoot at the oslo synagogue a few years ago is somewhere in pakistan training with the pakistan according to himself, although norwegian muslim sources say he's too much of a lazy twit to actually do any hard work.
It's like the shit hit the fan. The norwegian media is gearing up for war. I'm trying to keep the blood-pressure down as I read unverifiable assertions made by anti-israeli activists treated as true while verifiable statements by the official IDF spokesperson being treated as probably untrue hearsay and propaganda.
e.g. "Palestinian children injured in the bombing of civilian targets brought to hospital by crying mothers." and "The IDF claims that 70 "rockets" have been launched at a "major Israeli city" by "terrorists"."
so far, nothing of the sort here. Not even an editorial about it, as far as I can see, mostly stuff from Reuters, AFP and other press agencies.
Quote from: viper37 on November 15, 2012, 02:35:45 PM
so far, nothing of the sort here. Not even an editorial about it, as far as I can see, mostly stuff from Reuters, AFP and other press agencies.
It actually seems a bit contrived, at least compared to last time round. The media is reacting to the expected public reaction.. it's just that public reaction hasn't materialized yet. I think the israelis are able to get out the point that this is a long delayed reaction to rocketing over months.
Seems as though they're firing rockets into Tel Aviv now. Stratfor is predicting a ground invasion to be imminent.
Do these invasions actually work? It seems like we've gone through this routine a few times before.
Does anything really work in the Middle East?
Quote from: Josephus on November 15, 2012, 03:53:29 PM
Does anything really work in the Middle East?
Well, things in Israel work for the most part, it's the interactions with Israel's neighbors that don't work.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 15, 2012, 03:16:10 PM
Do these invasions actually work? It seems like we've gone through this routine a few times before.
Define "work".
It'll disrupt Hamas in the short term. They will seize some supplies, kill some militants. It will play well with Israeli voters. Rocket attacks will slow or stop, for awhile.
Quote from: Barrister on November 15, 2012, 03:55:00 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 15, 2012, 03:16:10 PM
Do these invasions actually work? It seems like we've gone through this routine a few times before.
Define "work".
It'll disrupt Hamas in the short term. They will seize some supplies, kill some militants. It will play well with Israeli voters. Rocket attacks will slow or stop, for awhile.
Oh God let me think. Work is Force times Distance. I think. I don't really remember that well.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 15, 2012, 05:08:53 PM
Oh God let me think. Work is Force times Distance. I think. I don't really remember that well.
That's right! One Newton point for you!
Quote from: Razgovory on November 15, 2012, 05:08:53 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 15, 2012, 03:55:00 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 15, 2012, 03:16:10 PM
Do these invasions actually work? It seems like we've gone through this routine a few times before.
Define "work".
It'll disrupt Hamas in the short term. They will seize some supplies, kill some militants. It will play well with Israeli voters. Rocket attacks will slow or stop, for awhile.
Oh God let me think. Work is Force times Distance. I think. I don't really remember that well.
So, Israel should hit invade Gaza with everything they've got, and go all the way to the other end of it?
Quote from: Valmy on November 15, 2012, 05:13:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 15, 2012, 05:08:53 PM
Oh God let me think. Work is Force times Distance. I think. I don't really remember that well.
That's right! One Newton point for you!
How convenient of Hamas to open the gates of hell right there in Gaza then... shortens the distance thus reducing the work the :Joos need to get done.
QuoteMiddle East Twitter users mock Arab League's slow response to Gaza
Posted by Max Fisher on November 15, 2012 at 11:43 am
The Arab League has never really had much of a reputation for action or efficiency. Still, its slow response to the unfolding violence between Israel and Gaza-based Hamas is drawing some derision on social media.
Though the United Nations Security Council held an emergency session on Wednesday night to discuss the crisis, the Arab League, which represents neighboring Arab states, will not meet until Saturday. A spokesman had earlier told Reuters that the body would meet "either Thursday or Saturday," which seems to have added to the sense of non-urgency.
Amira Al Hussaini of Global Voices rounded up some of the "ridicule and anger from netizens around the Arab world" toward the Arab League's response. Here are some of her finds (the first two are my favorites), plus a couple I've added.
When will the Arab world develop the advanced technology of conference calling?
— عمرو (@3amrB) November 14, 2012
Imagine the FMs on the phone, none of them knows what buttons to press, everyone speaking at the same time, no one knows who's talking.
— عمرو (@3amrB) November 14, 2012
The Arab League, showing a sense of urgency as always, will discuss Israeli attack on Gaza in an emergency meeting... on Saturday.
— Gregg Carlstrom (@glcarlstrom) November 14, 2012
[J]Arab League is reportedly getting ready to hold its emergency meeting, may start as soon as the fancy food and drinks to arrive
— Palestine Video (@PalestineVideo) November 14, 2012
Why no one takes them seriously———> Arab League to hold "emergency meeting"......... on Saturday #hamas #gaza #Israel
— Yousef Munayyer (@YousefMunayyer) November 14, 2012
Israeli and Palestinian news sources are reporting the same figures of rockets getting through Israel's Iron Dome missile shield (about a third) as a success and failure of the technology respectively.
The propaganda war seems terribly old fashioned - WWII tactics using modern media. The latest from @IDFSpokesperson:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn541%2FBerenice67%2FIDFpropoganda.jpg&hash=4885d429ef6210b04e11058d99ba58110b573f09)
Quote from: Brazen on November 16, 2012, 09:29:29 AM
The propaganda war seems terribly old fashioned - WWII tactics using modern media. The latest from @IDFSpokesperson:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn541%2FBerenice67%2FIDFpropoganda.jpg&hash=4885d429ef6210b04e11058d99ba58110b573f09)
You mean censorship? :hmm:
They deleted the image? I thought WWII preferred Photoshopping.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nypost.com%2Frw%2Fnypost%2F2012%2F11%2F21%2Fcovers%2Ffront112112.jpg&hash=5c17d1eb52b006f8de13ea71286e82e664c87c88)
Hey, look....Carmelo dropped 29 points inside 28 minutes.
Savages indeed! No helmets? And the way they ride motorcycles in twos or threes seems rather reckless, as well!
Whelp, somebody blew up a bus in Tel Aviv. Haven't seen that trick for a while.
Yep. Love some of the comments on Austrian news sites.
"It's a heinous crime, but really - can you blame them?" Idiots.
Quote from: Syt on November 21, 2012, 06:18:36 AM
Yep. Love some of the comments on Austrian news sites.
"It's a heinous crime, but really - can you blame them?" Idiots.
:lol: Ah, Austrians. Don't ever change.
The world isn't so black and white.
I believe in Israel's right to imperialist conquest and colonization, and I believe in the Palestinian right to resist it by any means necessary. :sleep:
I really wish you were blown up on the Bang Dong Express, dying in an explosion of cheaply made Asian dildos.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2012, 07:05:16 AM
I really wish you were blown up on the Bang Dong Express, dying in an explosion of cheaply made Asian dildos.
Dong Bang
It means East Room
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2012, 06:25:31 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 21, 2012, 06:18:36 AM
Yep. Love some of the comments on Austrian news sites.
"It's a heinous crime, but really - can you blame them?" Idiots.
:lol: Ah, Austrians. Don't ever change.
I think there's a knee jerk "Support the underdog" sentiment in large parts of Germany/Austria when it comes to conflicts. No matter who the underdog is - they're right to oppose whatever the oppressive juggernaut de jour is - U.S. vs. Iraq, Israel vs. Palestinians, China vs. Tibetans etc. There seems to be a feeling that supporting the outnumbered, outgunned underdog is the right moral choice to do.
That's because it is. And don't let Seedy trick you in thinking the Yanks are different. They are not.
Quote from: Syt on November 21, 2012, 07:51:08 AM
I think there's a knee jerk "Support the underdog" sentiment in large parts of Germany/Austria when it comes to conflicts. No matter who the underdog is - they're right to oppose whatever the oppressive juggernaut de jour is - U.S. vs. Iraq, Israel vs. Palestinians, China vs. Tibetans etc. There seems to be a feeling that supporting the outnumbered, outgunned underdog is the right moral choice to do.
Meh, I think it's a knee jerk "Support killing the Jews" sentiment.
The European populace didn't support Israel back in the 50s, 60s and 70s with the same level of frothing when they were the underdog.
It's just more of the same old antisemitism.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 07:57:13 AM
That's because it is. And don't let Seedy trick you in thinking the Yanks are different. They are not.
No tricks necessary. "Pro-Palestinian neutrality" doesn't fool anybody, either.
It's true.
In this conflict only of the side has the means to end the conflict. At some point Isreal and the rest of the World going to have to face that fact.
Quote from: Syt on November 21, 2012, 07:51:08 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 21, 2012, 06:25:31 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 21, 2012, 06:18:36 AM
Yep. Love some of the comments on Austrian news sites.
"It's a heinous crime, but really - can you blame them?" Idiots.
:lol: Ah, Austrians. Don't ever change.
I think there's a knee jerk "Support the underdog" sentiment in large parts of Germany/Austria when it comes to conflicts. No matter who the underdog is - they're right to oppose whatever the oppressive juggernaut de jour is - U.S. vs. Iraq, Israel vs. Palestinians, China vs. Tibetans etc. There seems to be a feeling that supporting the outnumbered, outgunned underdog is the right moral choice to do.
That's Marxian history analysis in action. Twisting every act in history into a cookie cutter mold of oppressor vs. oppressed fighting over resources results virtually every time i the stronger side being defied as evil by virtue of being stronger.
I posted this on facebook recently and am doing it here, because it addresses a few of the points as well as being hellishly clever in content if I might say so myself. Commenting on Murdoch's bafflement over how the Jewish conspiracy wasn't being very competent.
QuoteApart from the obviously anti-semitic musings where Murdoch is baffled by the absence of the evidence for the conspiracy he expected this is important to remember. Media, "Jewish Owned" or not, is first and foremost Media. Media behaves like media and the forces that work on all media are the same, "Jewish Owned" or not. Bill Maher have pointed out that there isn't a liberal bias in media, there is a sloppy journalism bias in the media.
The "Jewish Owned" media is Anti-Israel for the same reason that people choose to go into the media. People do not become study journalism because they want to write obituaries. They want to become like Woodward and Berntstein and expose corruption and exploitation or campaign to write (yes, this is a pun) a wrong. The very impulse that drives people into journalism is mistrust of power and concern for those who are weak. Journalists as a self selecting class do not believe that might makes right. The presumption is that might makes wrong and the powers that be need to prove this wrong if they are to be believed.
Israel is more powerful than the Palestinians and the Palestinians suffer more than the Israelis. Someone with a mistrust of power and wishes to advocate for those who suffer will naturally be anti-israel.
The thing is that might has little to do with right; the little that might has to do with right is that might that is wrong is more often defeated (viz Nazi Germany, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin etc.) than might that is right. Might also is more stable than weakness (compare the wrong might of north vietnam against the wrong weakness of south vietnam).
Israel acting within the laws and customs of war is "Dog bites man" and accusations of Israel not doing this is "Man bites dog". Naturally the media is going to tend by virtue of it's own nature to be anti-israeli.
The knee jerk anti-israelism of media is natural and normal and to be expected because of the nature of journalism students. Apart from me mis-spelling Bernstein's name I'm pretty proud of it.
Is this translated directly from Norwegian? The grammar's a bit off.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 08:20:56 AM
That's Marxian history analysis in action. Twisting every act in history into a cookie cutter mold of oppressor vs. oppressed fighting over resources results virtually every time i the stronger side being defied as evil by virtue of being stronger.
Might makes wrong?
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 08:17:59 AM
It's true.
In this conflict only of the side has the means to end the conflict. At some point Isreal and the rest of the World going to have to face that fact.
Neither side has the means to end the conflict. If either side tried they would be undermined by the radical elements of both sides. This is the key element to having a conflict that stretches on for decades that benefits nobody.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 08:17:59 AM
In this conflict only of the side has the means to end the conflict. At some point Isreal and the rest of the World going to have to face that fact.
You mean the Israelis should just kill all the Palestinians and have done with it? :hmm:
In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes. You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale. Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.
Quote from: Kleves on November 21, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 08:17:59 AM
In this conflict only of the side has the means to end the conflict. At some point Isreal and the rest of the World going to have to face that fact.
You mean the Israelis should just kill all the Palestinians and have done with it? :hmm:
Kick them all out would suffice, I think.
:huh:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 21, 2012, 09:12:20 AM
Is this translated directly from Norwegian? The grammar's a bit off.
Grammar is bad because I wrote it without editing.
Quote from: DGuller on November 21, 2012, 09:50:10 AM
In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes. You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale. Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.
My ancestors just packed up and left.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 09:53:48 AM
Quote from: Kleves on November 21, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 08:17:59 AM
In this conflict only of the side has the means to end the conflict. At some point Isreal and the rest of the World going to have to face that fact.
You mean the Israelis should just kill all the Palestinians and have done with it? :hmm:
Kick them all out would suffice, I think.
Send them to Madagascar?
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 08:17:59 AM
It's true.
In this conflict only of the side has the means to end the conflict. At some point Isreal and the rest of the World going to have to face that fact.
You suggest that this conflict is a voluntary one and that if Israel just withdraws to it's legally recognized international border with the legally recognized UN member Arab Republic of Palestine and ceases to be exceptionally vile and malevolent in it's patently illegal occupation of Palestine then all will be well and dandy?
Because that worked so well when Israel did that in Lebanon and Gaza. Oh, and there is no international border or state. The conflict ends when the parties negotiate an end. Israeli political leaders of both sides of the spectrum have offered detailed final status proposals that will end the conflict the Palestinians have not, in fact when the Israelis do the Palestinian leaders usually do their level best to escape the negotiation location. Abbas is boycotting talks, not Netanyahu.
Quote from: Valmy on November 21, 2012, 09:16:37 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 08:20:56 AM
That's Marxian history analysis in action. Twisting every act in history into a cookie cutter mold of oppressor vs. oppressed fighting over resources results virtually every time i the stronger side being defied as evil by virtue of being stronger.
Might makes wrong?
That's the assumption. It's a zero sum view of the world, if you have power and wealth then you stole it from those who have less than you.
Quote from: DGuller on November 21, 2012, 09:50:10 AM
In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes. You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale. Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.
That's claptrap.
Lets say, you are locked in a tight urban area surrounded by enemies who are at best blithely callous of your fate and at worst plotting genocide against you. Do you send commandos through the tunnels or sewers to murder their civilians as your only means of resistance? Well, I know what the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto didn't do. They didn't even try to kill any of the German civilians, often the wives and children of the SS men getting ready to send them to Auschwitz.
Lets say, you are heavily outnumbered by a more technologically advanced foe with modern army leadership equipped with some of the best planes and tanks in the world and you are only equipped with home made bombs and small arms. Do you refuse to negotiate and kill any and all enemy civilians you can find? Do you permit murderous terror groups to operate freely? Well, I know the Jews in the 1947 war were outnumbered by Arab state armies equipped with Spitfires and Shermans equipped only with light arms. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 10:09:06 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 08:17:59 AM
It's true.
In this conflict only of the side has the means to end the conflict. At some point Isreal and the rest of the World going to have to face that fact.
You suggest that this conflict is a voluntary one and that if Israel just withdraws to it's legally recognized international border with the legally recognized UN member Arab Republic of Palestine and ceases to be exceptionally vile and malevolent in it's patently illegal occupation of Palestine then all will be well and dandy?
Because that worked so well when Israel did that in Lebanon and Gaza. Oh, and there is no international border or state. The conflict ends when the parties negotiate an end. Israeli political leaders of both sides of the spectrum have offered detailed final status proposals that will end the conflict the Palestinians have not, in fact when the Israelis do the Palestinian leaders usually do their level best to escape the negotiation location. Abbas is boycotting talks, not Netanyahu.
Yes but exactly the opposite.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:10:57 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 10:09:06 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 08:17:59 AM
It's true.
In this conflict only of the side has the means to end the conflict. At some point Isreal and the rest of the World going to have to face that fact.
You suggest that this conflict is a voluntary one and that if Israel just withdraws to it's legally recognized international border with the legally recognized UN member Arab Republic of Palestine and ceases to be exceptionally vile and malevolent in it's patently illegal occupation of Palestine then all will be well and dandy?
Because that worked so well when Israel did that in Lebanon and Gaza. Oh, and there is no international border or state. The conflict ends when the parties negotiate an end. Israeli political leaders of both sides of the spectrum have offered detailed final status proposals that will end the conflict the Palestinians have not, in fact when the Israelis do the Palestinian leaders usually do their level best to escape the negotiation location. Abbas is boycotting talks, not Netanyahu.
Yes but exactly the opposite.
ah, so you suggest that there is a recognized international border or a palestinian state or the occupation is illegal or that the occupation is exceptionally vile and malevolent or are you suggesting that israels unilateral withdrawls from lebanon and gaza produced peace or that the israelis have not made detailed final status proposals or that the palestinians have or that israeli leaders have skiddadled from peace talks or that netanyahu is boycotting the talks?
details please...
I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.
That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
Quote from: DGuller on November 21, 2012, 09:50:10 AM
In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes. You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale. Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.
.. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.
And then made him their leader? That's one strong condemnation of terrorism. :sleep:
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.
That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.
Why is it stupid?
The Palestinians could also get a clue & stop following Hamas line of conduct but that is asking too much out of Muslims.
Quote from: DGuller on November 21, 2012, 09:50:10 AM
In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes. You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale. Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.
I don't know. I mean I am not there being a Palestinian but it seems crazy to keep poking the bear like that.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.
That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.
I think that he's just being sarcastic with you now. I think his original meaning was that the one side that could stop the conflict was the Palestinians, by actually accepting Isreal's right to exist and arriving at a reasonable agreement as to borders and the like.
Quote from: Valmy on November 21, 2012, 11:23:39 AM
Quote from: DGuller on November 21, 2012, 09:50:10 AM
In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes. You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale. Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.
I don't know. I mean I am not there being a Palestinian but it seems crazy to keep poking the bear like that.
If you don't want the current fences to become the de jure ones, then continuing this low level conflict seems like the best way to keep your claim alive in the international public's view. I think it's quite sane.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
Lets say, you are locked in a tight urban area surrounded by enemies who are at best blithely callous of your fate and at worst plotting genocide against you. Do you send commandos through the tunnels or sewers to murder their civilians as your only means of resistance? Well, I know what the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto didn't do. They didn't even try to kill any of the German civilians, often the wives and children of the SS men getting ready to send them to Auschwitz.
Wait, are you for or against that? Because the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were annihilated.
QuoteLets say, you are heavily outnumbered by a more technologically advanced foe with modern army leadership equipped with some of the best planes and tanks in the world and you are only equipped with home made bombs and small arms. Do you refuse to negotiate and kill any and all enemy civilians you can find? Do you permit murderous terror groups to operate freely? Well, I know the Jews in the 1947 war were outnumbered by Arab state armies equipped with Spitfires and Shermans equipped only with light arms. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.
I guess it depends on which method you think will get you a better deal.
Quote from: Fate on November 21, 2012, 11:20:05 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
Quote from: DGuller on November 21, 2012, 09:50:10 AM
In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes. You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale. Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.
.. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.
And then made him their leader? That's one strong condemnation of terrorism. :sleep:
Yes, after 30 years of peaceful democratic behavior. The thing is they did arrest him and disarm his group. Then, after playing fair in the rules of democracy for 30 years he got elected.
Please, tell me, how should reformed terrorists behave? Being an active terrorist seems to be the pre-requisite for office among the Palestinians. One would think that voting for Abbas would mean an endorsement of holocaust denial given that was what he doctoral thesis claimed.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
Quote from: Fate on November 21, 2012, 11:20:05 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
Quote from: DGuller on November 21, 2012, 09:50:10 AM
In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes. You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale. Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.
.. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.
And then made him their leader? That's one strong condemnation of terrorism. :sleep:
Yes, after 30 years of peaceful democratic behavior. The thing is they did arrest him and disarm his group. Then, after playing fair in the rules of democracy for 30 years he got elected.
Please, tell me, how should reformed terrorists behave? Being an active terrorist seems to be the pre-requisite for office among the Palestinians. One would think that voting for Abbas would mean an endorsement of holocaust denial given that was what he doctoral thesis claimed.
Terrorists shouldn't be allowed in government. There was no shortage of honorable men in Israel who didn't engage in murder.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:22:56 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.
That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.
Why is it stupid?
The Palestinians could also get a clue & stop following Hamas line of conduct but that is asking too much out of Muslims.
Ethnic cleansing and genocide is many things, among those things that they are is being stupid. I think that is an assertion that I can make without needing to justify it.
Merely stopping following the HAMAS (remember its an acronym) line is not enough. There is still the problem of resolving the status of the palestinian and jewish refugees (since the UN fucked that up for us generations ago). Merely stopping shooting is not going to end or resolve anything. Both sides need to come to an agreement.
Quote from: Valmy on November 21, 2012, 11:23:39 AM
Quote from: DGuller on November 21, 2012, 09:50:10 AM
In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes. You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale. Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.
I don't know. I mean I am not there being a Palestinian but it seems crazy to keep poking the bear like that.
The thing is that political leaders and aspiring political leaders in Palestinian society gain legitimacy by performing resistance. To stay in power any leader needs to do some resisting because that is what society itself expects of him. If he doesn't he gets "primary'ed" from the right by HAMAS or Islamic Jihad or some other group of anti-semitic sociopathic murderous scum.
Quote from: Fate on November 21, 2012, 11:30:10 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
Yes, after 30 years of peaceful democratic behavior. The thing is they did arrest him and disarm his group. Then, after playing fair in the rules of democracy for 30 years he got elected.
Please, tell me, how should reformed terrorists behave? Being an active terrorist seems to be the pre-requisite for office among the Palestinians. One would think that voting for Abbas would mean an endorsement of holocaust denial given that was what he doctoral thesis claimed.
Terrorists shouldn't be allowed in government. There was no shortage of honorable men in Israel who didn't engage in murder.
Well, yes, obviously he wasn't a reformed chap and proved it by not making peace with Egypt right? Now, pray, why this doesn't apply to Arafat or Mashaal or Nasrallah or Abbas or ... well I could go on for a while sticking within the arab world.
Quote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 11:26:58 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
Lets say, you are locked in a tight urban area surrounded by enemies who are at best blithely callous of your fate and at worst plotting genocide against you. Do you send commandos through the tunnels or sewers to murder their civilians as your only means of resistance? Well, I know what the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto didn't do. They didn't even try to kill any of the German civilians, often the wives and children of the SS men getting ready to send them to Auschwitz.
Wait, are you for or against that? Because the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were annihilated.
Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.
Quote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 11:26:58 AM
QuoteLets say, you are heavily outnumbered by a more technologically advanced foe with modern army leadership equipped with some of the best planes and tanks in the world and you are only equipped with home made bombs and small arms. Do you refuse to negotiate and kill any and all enemy civilians you can find? Do you permit murderous terror groups to operate freely? Well, I know the Jews in the 1947 war were outnumbered by Arab state armies equipped with Spitfires and Shermans equipped only with light arms. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.
I guess it depends on which method you think will get you a better deal.
I suggest that the jews got a better deal in 1948 than HAMAS got in 2009.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:32:08 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:22:56 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.
That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.
Why is it stupid?
The Palestinians could also get a clue & stop following Hamas line of conduct but that is asking too much out of Muslims.
Ethnic cleansing and genocide is many things, among those things that they are is being stupid. I think that is an assertion that I can make without needing to justify it.
Merely stopping following the HAMAS (remember its an acronym) line is not enough. There is still the problem of resolving the status of the palestinian and jewish refugees (since the UN fucked that up for us generations ago). Merely stopping shooting is not going to end or resolve anything. Both sides need to come to an agreement.
It depends on who you ask tho. I don't think Nazis leaders thought their final solution was stupid.
It's an acronym? Didn't know that.
I think I need to clarify my points.
The status quo cannot remain any longer( and for about 20 years now too). They cannot live as neighbors nor can they live together. One of them has to leave. The Jews are not going to, they don't have anywhere else to go. The Palestinians do, it surrounds Israel from all sides.
I don't advocate that Israel kills them per se, I have no horse in the matter. Only the end game of peace matters.
I used to be more pro-palestinians but Languish has made me hard. Muslims are idiots.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:36:45 AM
Quote from: Fate on November 21, 2012, 11:30:10 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
Yes, after 30 years of peaceful democratic behavior. The thing is they did arrest him and disarm his group. Then, after playing fair in the rules of democracy for 30 years he got elected.
Please, tell me, how should reformed terrorists behave? Being an active terrorist seems to be the pre-requisite for office among the Palestinians. One would think that voting for Abbas would mean an endorsement of holocaust denial given that was what he doctoral thesis claimed.
Terrorists shouldn't be allowed in government. There was no shortage of honorable men in Israel who didn't engage in murder.
Well, yes, obviously he wasn't a reformed chap and proved it by not making peace with Egypt right? Now, pray, why this doesn't apply to Arafat or Mashaal or Nasrallah or Abbas or ... well I could go on for a while sticking within the arab world.
Of course this applies to all of them.
A murderer who signs a peace accord is no less a murderer. The fact that Begin was elected to the highest level of government reflects poorly on the people who put him in office.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:32:08 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:22:56 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.
That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.
Why is it stupid?
The Palestinians could also get a clue & stop following Hamas line of conduct but that is asking too much out of Muslims.
Ethnic cleansing and genocide is many things, among those things that they are is being stupid. I think that is an assertion that I can make without needing to justify it.
Merely stopping following the HAMAS (remember its an acronym) line is not enough. There is still the problem of resolving the status of the palestinian and jewish refugees (since the UN fucked that up for us generations ago). Merely stopping shooting is not going to end or resolve anything. Both sides need to come to an agreement.
It depends on who you ask tho. I don't think Nazis leaders thought their final solution was stupid.
It's an acronym? Didn't know that.
I think I need to clarify my points.
The status quo cannot remain any longer( and for about 20 years now too). They cannot live as neighbors nor can they live together. One of them has to leave. The Jews are not going to, they don't have anywhere else to go. The Palestinians do, it surrounds Israel from all sides.
I don't advocate that Israel kills them per se, I have no horse in the matter. Only the end game of peace matters.
I used to be more pro-palestinians but Languish has made me hard. Muslims are idiots.
I see no reason why this current tit for tat cannot continue for another 50 years. Neither side seems tired. Every week brings new reasons to be enraged and replenishes the reservoir of national resolve.
Quote from: Fate on November 21, 2012, 11:47:55 AM
I see no reason why this current tit for tat cannot continue for another 50 years. Neither side seems tired. Every week brings new reasons to be enraged and replenishes the reservoir of national resolve.
And more to the point neither side has a choice. The Israelis I have talked to have basically decided there is no alternative than continuing like this indefinitely.
Quote from: Fate on November 21, 2012, 11:42:46 AM
Of course this applies to all of them.
A murderer who signs a peace accord is no less a murderer. The fact that Begin was elected to the highest level of government reflects poorly on the people who put him in office.
Does this apply to Nelson Mandela and South Africa?
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
It's an acronym? Didn't know that.
Yeah. Don't know what the Arabic words are, but they translate as "Islamic Resistance Movement".
QuoteI think I need to clarify my points.
Well, I at least certainly misunderstood what you were getting at.
QuoteThe status quo cannot remain any longer( and for about 20 years now too). They cannot live as neighbors nor can they live together. One of them has to leave. The Jews are not going to, they don't have anywhere else to go. The Palestinians do, it surrounds Israel from all sides.
I don't advocate that Israel kills them per se, I have no horse in the matter. Only the end game of peace matters.
I know this sounds terrible, but if you and I have no horse in the matter, why does the end game of peace matter? Why should we care if the Isrealis and Palestinians are still killing each other 20, 40, 1000 years from now?
Or, put another way--if we think that one side is the culprit in the matter, and it can only be resolved by one or the other being exterminated or driven out, then if we actually care about acheiving peace, it seems we should doing everything in our power, up to and including the use of our military power, to expell the culprits. (OTOH, if we fell both sides are at least somewhat equally to blame, I'm not sure what we should do.)
Quote from: Valmy on November 21, 2012, 11:53:06 AM
Quote from: Fate on November 21, 2012, 11:42:46 AM
Of course this applies to all of them.
A murderer who signs a peace accord is no less a murderer. The fact that Begin was elected to the highest level of government reflects poorly on the people who put him in office.
Does this apply to Nelson Mandela and South Africa?
Did Mandela ever actually murder anyone? Nelson, that is; we know that his wife did.
Quote from: dps on November 21, 2012, 11:58:27 AM
Did Mandela ever actually murder anyone? Nelson, that is; we know that his wife did.
He bombed alot of places, but he may have never actually killed anybody I do not remember. If he did it was probably not by design. His organization killed alot of people though, but that might have been after he was arrested.
But still he was an advocate of violence.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 11:26:58 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
Lets say, you are locked in a tight urban area surrounded by enemies who are at best blithely callous of your fate and at worst plotting genocide against you. Do you send commandos through the tunnels or sewers to murder their civilians as your only means of resistance? Well, I know what the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto didn't do. They didn't even try to kill any of the German civilians, often the wives and children of the SS men getting ready to send them to Auschwitz.
Wait, are you for or against that? Because the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were annihilated.
Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.
Morality doesn't matter when you're the one under the boot. The Jews didn't realize what was going to happen to them, and figured they'd survive this the way that they'd survived previous persecutions. The Palestinians, on the other hand, know exactly what their fate will be.
QuoteQuote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 11:26:58 AM
QuoteLets say, you are heavily outnumbered by a more technologically advanced foe with modern army leadership equipped with some of the best planes and tanks in the world and you are only equipped with home made bombs and small arms. Do you refuse to negotiate and kill any and all enemy civilians you can find? Do you permit murderous terror groups to operate freely? Well, I know the Jews in the 1947 war were outnumbered by Arab state armies equipped with Spitfires and Shermans equipped only with light arms. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.
I guess it depends on which method you think will get you a better deal.
I suggest that the jews got a better deal in 1948 than HAMAS got in 2009.
The Jews in 1948 were dealing from a position of strength. Terrorist attacks are the only leverage that HAMAS has.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
It depends on who you ask tho. I don't think Nazis leaders thought their final solution was stupid.
Look how that turned out for them.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
It's an acronym? Didn't know that.
It's short for Islamic Resistance Movement, but the arabic word "hamas" means enthusiasm.
Interestingly FATAH is also an acronym, but it is backwards. HATAF is short for Palestinians National Liberation Movement, but unlike the positive connotation that "hamas" has, "hataf" means death or sometimes hate in arabic. So they spelled it backwards as FATAH which means conquest or victory over the infidels.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
I think I need to clarify my points.
The status quo cannot remain any longer( and for about 20 years now too). They cannot live as neighbors nor can they live together. One of them has to leave. The Jews are not going to, they don't have anywhere else to go. The Palestinians do, it surrounds Israel from all sides.
I don't advocate that Israel kills them per se, I have no horse in the matter. Only the end game of peace matters.
I used to be more pro-palestinians but Languish has made me hard. Muslims are idiots.
I'm about as pro-israeli as it gets here on languish it's just that I'm not anti-palestinian. But you bring up a good point. Normally when an enemy is totally defeated and refuses to make peace it just gets slaughtered. Basically palestine is like a wrestler that is pinned demanding that he be let up and declaring at the same time he will murder the other wrestler as soon as he is let up.
This is why there is no way for there to be a unilateral or a parallell unilateral solution to the conflict like they tried in '67 and '73. Yes, the palestinians have nothing more to lose, not because they have nothing left, but rather because the israelis are trying desperately not to destroy them. The palestinians see this as weakness so they press on thinking victory is near.
It has been suggested that at some point Israel will be forced to accept the bi-national state by demographic pressure. At that point Israel might be forced to choose between survial and dishonour I agree. But any action of that kind before that point is pre-mature since that kind of dishonour will mean that there will never be peace. But then again, HAMAS keeps telling the Israelis that there will never be peace.
Muslims are not idiots, they are products of their own societies.
Quote from: Fate on November 21, 2012, 11:42:46 AM
Of course this applies to all of them.
A murderer who signs a peace accord is no less a murderer. The fact that Begin was elected to the highest level of government reflects poorly on the people who put him in office.
I agree. Will you, however, agree that imprisoning him in the first place reflects well on the same people?
Quote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 12:04:16 PM
The Jews in 1948 were dealing from a position of strength. Terrorist attacks are the only leverage that HAMAS has.
The Jews of 1948 dealt from a position of strength because rather than going all bonkers and trying to murder as many civilians as possible for emotional reasons they built a strong state with a chain of command and a monopoly of violence which would act on the will of the government and promptly thrashed the disunited disorganized and quarreling Arabs.
All I needed to learn about Arab nature I learned from Lawrence of Arabia. :P
Quote from: dps on November 21, 2012, 11:56:43 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 21, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
It's an acronym? Didn't know that.
Yeah. Don't know what the Arabic words are, but they translate as "Islamic Resistance Movement".
QuoteI think I need to clarify my points.
Well, I at least certainly misunderstood what you were getting at.
QuoteThe status quo cannot remain any longer( and for about 20 years now too). They cannot live as neighbors nor can they live together. One of them has to leave. The Jews are not going to, they don't have anywhere else to go. The Palestinians do, it surrounds Israel from all sides.
I don't advocate that Israel kills them per se, I have no horse in the matter. Only the end game of peace matters.
I know this sounds terrible, but if you and I have no horse in the matter, why does the end game of peace matter? Why should we care if the Isrealis and Palestinians are still killing each other 20, 40, 1000 years from now?
Or, put another way--if we think that one side is the culprit in the matter, and it can only be resolved by one or the other being exterminated or driven out, then if we actually care about acheiving peace, it seems we should doing everything in our power, up to and including the use of our military power, to expell the culprits. (OTOH, if we fell both sides are at least somewhat equally to blame, I'm not sure what we should do.)
I did like the point you made trying to understand what I said, it could work.
I don't know why I care that peace is the end game. Not much logic to that one I agree.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 12:31:54 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 12:04:16 PM
The Jews in 1948 were dealing from a position of strength. Terrorist attacks are the only leverage that HAMAS has.
The Jews of 1948 dealt from a position of strength because rather than going all bonkers and trying to murder as many civilians as possible for emotional reasons they built a strong state with a chain of command and a monopoly of violence which would act on the will of the government and promptly thrashed the disunited disorganized and quarreling Arabs.
An option which currently isn't available to the Palestinians.
So there's a cease-fire now. Of course, since everybody's likening this to the October 2008 incident, that may not mean much- IIRC, the first cease-fire in that case lasted less than 48 hours before Hamas started shooting again.
The Egyptians are guaranteeing it, so it might carry some more weight.
One good thing about the new Egyptian government, by the way, is that it no longer will be seen as a pawn of the US and Israel like under Mubarak. If they are willing to play the part, they could be a positive influence.
Quote from: celedhring on November 21, 2012, 02:08:58 PM
The Egyptians are guaranteeing it, so it might carry some more weight.
I give it until tomorrow night. Hamas is having too much fun with this.
Quote from: celedhring on November 21, 2012, 02:08:58 PM
The Egyptians are guaranteeing it, so it might carry some more weight.
One good thing about the new Egyptian government, by the way, is that it no longer will be seen as a pawn of the US and Israel like under Mubarak. If they are willing to play the part, they could be a positive influence.
MURSI!!!
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuserserve-ak.last.fm%2Fserve%2F_%2F34787831%2FRoy%2BOrbison%2Broyorbison2.jpg&hash=71d4afc218296d2a6d3a6ec62c9a800b01cba7d6)
Quote from: celedhring on November 21, 2012, 02:08:58 PM
The Egyptians negotiated it, so it might carry some more weight.
One good thing about the new Egyptian government, by the way, is that it no longer will be seen as a pawn of the US and Israel like under Mubarak. If they are willing to play the part, they could be a positive influence.
To Abbas, sure. The lingering problem is the remaining rift between Fatah and Hamas. Would the Egyptian influence be enough to convince Hamas to recognize the ceasefire?
Quote from: Fate on November 21, 2012, 11:42:46 AM
Of course this applies to all of them.
Indeed, Arafat, Gerry Adams, George Washington... all of them.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on November 21, 2012, 01:52:21 PM
So there's a cease-fire now. Of course, since everybody's likening this to the October 2008 incident, that may not mean much- IIRC, the first cease-fire in that case lasted less than 48 hours before Hamas started shooting again.
apparently the alarms went of and missiles were sent Against Ashdod and Gan Yavne and surroundings... according to someone who lives there.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:40:16 AM
Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.
If the Jews were penned in a Warsaw ghetto for 60+ years I think they would have radicalized just a wee bit.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 21, 2012, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:40:16 AM
Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.
If the Jews were penned in a Warsaw ghetto for 60+ years I think they would have radicalized just a wee bit.
:secret: Jews have been forced to live in Ghettos for several hundred years.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2012, 05:08:46 PM
:secret: Jews have been forced to live in Ghettos for several hundred years.
Yeah that one had me :frusty:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 21, 2012, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:40:16 AM
Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.
If the Jews were penned in a Warsaw ghetto for 60+ years I think they would have radicalized just a wee bit.
That doesn't explain the Hebron and Jerusalem Pogroms in the 1920s, the Great Arab Revolt and it's Pogroms in the 1930s or the Farhud in Iraq and the total ethnic cleansing of jews from east jerusalem and the west bank in the 1940s as well as the de-jewification of the arab world in the 1950s.
Naturally this misses the main point, which is that the deliberate murder of civilians by means of suicide bombing began when there were few, if any, travel restrictions between the occupied territories and israel proper.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2012, 05:08:46 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 21, 2012, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 11:40:16 AM
Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.
If the Jews were penned in a Warsaw ghetto for 60+ years I think they would have radicalized just a wee bit.
:secret: Jews have been forced to live in Ghettos for several hundred years.
Jews initially choose to live in Ghettos to keep their religion and traditions pure. In liberal western countries where jews were choosing to integrate Ghettos disappeared. The Warsaw Ghetto was not a traditional Ghetto. It was a concentration camp located on the site and using the buildings of the Warsaw Ghetto. This is an important distinction to remember.
Such a minor cull of Hamas won't last beyond next week. I suppose Israel got some good data testing their Iron Dome system, but beyond that, meh. The last Lebanon and Cast Lead Gaza wars cost Israel it's strategic alliance with Turkey and this last Bibi escapade almost sheared Egypt away from it's sullen neutrality.
Maybe Hamas will tiptoe with the missile attacks for a few months afterwards which might help Bibi with the re-election.
So, it seems that the Palestinians are holding a victory parade. It's nice to know that some of their guys won't be at the trophy ceremony.
Quote from: Legbiter on November 21, 2012, 05:45:41 PM
Such a minor cull of Hamas won't last beyond next week. I suppose Israel got some good data testing their Iron Dome system, but beyond that, meh. The last Lebanon and Cast Lead Gaza wars cost Israel it's strategic alliance with Turkey and this last Bibi escapade almost sheared Egypt away from it's sullen neutrality.
Maybe Hamas will tiptoe with the missile attacks for a few months afterwards which might help Bibi with the re-election.
Disagree on the first - it wasn't Israeli beating up on Gaza that cost Israel its relations with the Turks, but a rather more serious issue - namely, the discovery of huge natural gas reserves in the Med. which both Israel and Turkey are scrambling to control. Turkish "outrage" is real enough but the government is using that as a pretext to gain leverage in its ongoing attempt to oust the Israelis from what they considef their part of the Med (Israel recently signed a defence - and gas exploration - deal with the "Greek" part of Cyprus, much to Turkish outrage).
As is so often the case in the ME, there is the "public" reasons for stuff happening, and then there is the byzantine politics of self-interest that mostly happens behind the scenes. The Turks discovered a burning care for the fate of Palestinians at exactly the moment that they discovered they were in a competition with Israel for resources.
Quote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 05:53:54 PM
So, it seems that the Palestinians are holding a victory parade. It's nice to know that some of their guys won't be at the trophy ceremony.
Arabs always do this. The more crushing their defeat, the more the idiots celebrate victory.
Quote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 05:53:54 PM
So, it seems that the Palestinians are holding a victory parade. It's nice to know that some of their guys won't be at the trophy ceremony.
Those are getting thier 72 virgins. Star Trek and star wars nerds, paradox forum users and bronies.
Enjoy Hamas leaders!
Quote from: Malthus on November 21, 2012, 05:54:13 PM
Disagree on the first - it wasn't Israeli beating up on Gaza that cost Israel its relations with the Turks, but a rather more serious issue - namely, the discovery of huge natural gas reserves in the Med. which both Israel and Turkey are scrambling to control. Turkish "outrage" is real enough but the government is using that as a pretext to gain leverage in its ongoing attempt to oust the Israelis from what they considef their part of the Med (Israel recently signed a defence - and gas exploration - deal with the "Greek" part of Cyprus, much to Turkish outrage).
As is so often the case in the ME, there is the "public" reasons for stuff happening, and then there is the byzantine politics of self-interest that mostly happens behind the scenes. The Turks discovered a burning care for the fate of Palestinians at exactly the moment that they discovered they were in a competition with Israel for resources.
Never seen that angle represented anywhere in my readings. Interesting.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 21, 2012, 06:00:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 05:53:54 PM
So, it seems that the Palestinians are holding a victory parade. It's nice to know that some of their guys won't be at the trophy ceremony.
Those are getting thier 72 virgins. Star Trek and star wars nerds, paradox forum users and bronies.
Enjoy Hamas leaders!
And as Hitchens pointed out, 72 Mothers in Law.
Quote from: Legbiter on November 21, 2012, 06:01:57 PM
Never seen that angle represented anywhere in my readings. Interesting.
Here's some more info on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus%E2%80%93Israel_relations#Energy_and_natural_gas
Really, the two went hand-in-hand: the Turks used the "flotilla" incident to increase naval presence in that part of the Med. containing the natural gas prize.
In short, without the spur of energy (in this case, the Leviathan gas field), Turkish-Israeli relations would not have been irrepairably damaged by Palestinian shennanigans - as it is, relations cannot impove until the two countries work out who will control Cyprus and the natural gas prize. Right now, Israel has the edge in that, and the Turks are seriously angry about it - they invaded Cyprus fair and square and feel *they* should get the rewards.
Quote from: Viking on November 21, 2012, 06:02:41 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 21, 2012, 06:00:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 21, 2012, 05:53:54 PM
So, it seems that the Palestinians are holding a victory parade. It's nice to know that some of their guys won't be at the trophy ceremony.
Those are getting thier 72 virgins. Star Trek and star wars nerds, paradox forum users and bronies.
Enjoy Hamas leaders!
And as Hitchens pointed out, 72 Mothers in Law.
I suppose he'd know, being dead and all.
Foolish analysis, this latest skirmish can't possibly compare to what would be unleashed by Iran and Hezbollah if Israel carried out a first strike on their nuclear sites
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/23/15357759-what-gaza-fighting-taught-israel-about-possible-war-with-iran?lite.