Yeah for colony status! :)
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/amid-criticism-baird-defends-canada-u-k-shared-embassy-agreement-1.969486
Quote
A former Canadian ambassador slammed the plan as "stupid" while Bob Rae said Canada was "receding" from the world stage under Prime Minister Stephen Harper's leadership.
"This is a dumb idea. There are many parts of the world where it's best not to be identified with Britain, such as in the Caribbean and Africa where Britain was a colonial power," Louis Delvoie, a former Canadian ambassador and current diplomatic relations expert at Queen's University, said in a statement.
Of course, the English Canadians think it's the best move ever done.
In Quebec, we are left wondering, why, of all the countries in the world, it had to be the Empire.
But Canada will close some embassie, share locations with some other and exchange services with some.
Cost wise, it's a sound move. However, we could have made this pact with Australia. But they chose the Motherland, just to reasses Canada's status as a colony. It's not like UK embassies are safe, they're probably the 2nd most likely to be attacked after those of the US.
Us would have been a better option, but people would never accept it (probably us wouldn't either). The other only Anglo nation in the same sphere of influence is the uk.
These kind of diplomatic sharing of resources are fairly common. Canada is now going to be represented in Iran by Italy, IIRC. And it goes both ways - the UK will be represented in Haiti by Canada.
Why UK, not Australia? I doubt very much that Australia has as wide a diplomatic reach as even Canada, never mind UK.
Quote from: HVC on September 25, 2012, 12:51:16 PM
Us would have been a better option, but people would never accept it (probably us wouldn't either). The other only Anglo nation in the same sphere of influence is the uk.
We aren't sharing our embassies with you. You people blew your chance in 1812.
We already have an agreement with Australia: http://www.voyage.gc.ca/laws_lois/australia-canada-australie-eng
Quote from: alfred russel on September 25, 2012, 12:53:11 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 25, 2012, 12:51:16 PM
Us would have been a better option, but people would never accept it (probably us wouldn't either). The other only Anglo nation in the same sphere of influence is the uk.
We aren't sharing our embassies with you. You people blew your chance in 1812.
I wouldn't be surprised if we do not share with them already somewhere.
But Canada should be sharing embassies with France.
What does this mean for the Embassy in London?
You're all ignoring the fact that this makes Canada a slave to England!
Quote from: HVC on September 25, 2012, 01:30:54 PM
You're all ignoring the fact that this makes Canada a slave to England!
The fact that every statement and action the Canadian Federal Government makes is a direct order from Buckingham Palace is such common knowledge and generally known there is no reason to continue to discuss it.
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 25, 2012, 01:30:36 PM
What does this mean for the Embassy in London?
We don't have an embassy in London. :cool:
Awww, Canada thinks it's people.
Retreating from the world stage. Leading from behind. Apologizing for Canada.
Nordic countries have been doing this for years. It was the danish embassy that offered me evacuation from china in june 1989, Iceland only had one embassy in asia (japan) at the time.
But seriously... if you are going to show up for G7 meetings you really really are going to have an independent consular system.
I keep confusing Viper with Tyr now.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 25, 2012, 01:40:10 PM
I keep confusing Viper with Tyr now.
Yeah, that "we" threw me for a loop.
Quote from: Viking on September 25, 2012, 01:38:35 PM
Nordic countries have been doing this for years. It was the danish embassy that offered me evacuation from china in june 1989, Iceland only had one embassy in asia (japan) at the time.
But seriously... if you are going to show up for G7 meetings you really really are going to have an independent consular system.
We have an independent consular system. Wiki even has a map:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F0%2F0c%2FCanadian_embassies_map.png%2F800px-Canadian_embassies_map.png&hash=c5354879ac5eb4ee6588ec656a52866562353875)
Your claim that Wiki is infallible as a source just doesn't hold up. Sorry.
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 25, 2012, 01:30:36 PM
What does this mean for the Embassy in London?
We don't have an embassy in London. :cool:
Why would you? Does Rhode Island have an embassy in Washington DC? :huh:
Quote from: DGuller on September 25, 2012, 01:48:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 25, 2012, 01:30:36 PM
What does this mean for the Embassy in London?
We don't have an embassy in London. :cool:
Why would you? Does Rhode Island have an embassy in Washington DC? :huh:
RI have embassy in Washington root beer pigeon :w00t:
Quote from: DGuller on September 25, 2012, 01:48:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 25, 2012, 01:30:36 PM
What does this mean for the Embassy in London?
We don't have an embassy in London. :cool:
Why would you? Does Rhode Island have an embassy in Washington DC? :huh:
I don't know what that has to do with anything. :huh:
All members of the Commonwealth of Nations exchange High Commissions, not Embassies. :bowler:
He thought you were making a joke, not being a nitpicking asshole.
;)
What's a root beer pigeon?
Quote from: Grey Fox on September 25, 2012, 01:54:44 PM
He thought you were making a joke, not being a nitpicking asshole.
;)
Then he doesn't know me very well. :(
Quote from: HVC on September 25, 2012, 01:30:54 PM
You're all ignoring the fact that this makes Canada a slave to England!
it does sends that message. I'm not sure Canada will be seen in a good light in some former colonies, where the Union Jack will be flying high beside the maple leaf.
Quote from: Viking on September 25, 2012, 01:38:35 PM
Nordic countries have been doing this for years. It was the danish embassy that offered me evacuation from china in june 1989, Iceland only had one embassy in asia (japan) at the time.
But seriously... if you are going to show up for G7 meetings you really really are going to have an independent consular system.
If this is a consular ship then where is the ambassador?
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2012, 02:04:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 25, 2012, 01:30:54 PM
You're all ignoring the fact that this makes Canada a slave to England!
it does sends that message. I'm not sure Canada will be seen in a good light in some former colonies, where the Union Jack will be flying high beside the maple leaf.
They haven't named a lot of examples, but the one they have named is Burma - Canadian consular officials will hang out in the British embassy (I believe Burma is out of the Commonwealth, so its an embassy not high commission). I really can't see that hurting Canada much, especially since before we didn't have anyone on the ground in Burma.
Viper's tears are delicious. This move was worth doing just to rile up the opposition, and I haven't seen anyone sensible come out against it.
Anglophobes can go suck an egg.
What happens if some Brit wants to seek asylum in Canada?
Quote from: DGuller on September 25, 2012, 02:28:08 PM
What happens if some Brit wants to seek asylum in Canada?
Generally speaking you have to make it to the actual country in order to seek refugee status. So if you want to seek asylum in Canada, your brit would have to fly to Canada.
Does this mean I have to apply to the UK embassy for the paperwork if I wanted to haul ass to Canada?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 25, 2012, 02:07:12 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 25, 2012, 01:38:35 PM
Nordic countries have been doing this for years. It was the danish embassy that offered me evacuation from china in june 1989, Iceland only had one embassy in asia (japan) at the time.
But seriously... if you are going to show up for G7 meetings you really really are going to have an independent consular system.
If this is a consular ship then where is the ambassador?
presumably on the ambassadorial ship ;)
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 25, 2012, 02:07:12 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 25, 2012, 01:38:35 PM
Nordic countries have been doing this for years. It was the danish embassy that offered me evacuation from china in june 1989, Iceland only had one embassy in asia (japan) at the time.
But seriously... if you are going to show up for G7 meetings you really really are going to have an independent consular system.
If this is a consular ship then where is the ambassador?
:lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 25, 2012, 02:35:46 PM
Does this mean I have to apply to the UK embassy for the paperwork if I wanted to haul ass to Canada?
I'll go ahead and pack your things.
Quote from: derspiess on September 25, 2012, 02:40:59 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 25, 2012, 02:35:46 PM
Does this mean I have to apply to the UK embassy for the paperwork if I wanted to haul ass to Canada?
I'll go ahead and pack your things.
Fuck if I'm going to stick around for the draft. Have fun in Vietnam.
There is a shared Nordic embassy in Berlin for Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway and Iceland. Nice architecture too.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 25, 2012, 02:44:25 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 25, 2012, 02:40:59 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 25, 2012, 02:35:46 PM
Does this mean I have to apply to the UK embassy for the paperwork if I wanted to haul ass to Canada?
I'll go ahead and pack your things.
Fuck if I'm going to stick around for the draft. Have fun in Vietnam.
Things have changed. We now deport war refusers back to the US. :showoff:
Quote from: Zanza on September 25, 2012, 02:46:50 PM
There is a shared Nordic embassy in Berlin for Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway and Iceland. Nice architecture too.
That is different. They have all the different embassies in the one building. But there are five ambassadors in the building. I have a norwegian passport now, but when I'm in a country without a norwegian embassy I can go to any of the other nordic embassies and be treated as if I were a citizen; that is what I mean by consular union.
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 02:54:11 PM
Things have changed. We now deport war refusers back to the US. :showoff:
We got rid of the draft. :showoff:
Quote from: Viking on September 25, 2012, 02:55:33 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 25, 2012, 02:46:50 PM
There is a shared Nordic embassy in Berlin for Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway and Iceland. Nice architecture too.
That is different. They have all the different embassies in the one building. But there are five ambassadors in the building. I have a norwegian passport now, but when I'm in a country without a norwegian embassy I can go to any of the other nordic embassies and be treated as if I were a citizen; that is what I mean by consular union.
It's not all that different. There will be Canadian consular staff (don't know about a full ambassador) - they will just work out of space in the British embassy. And vice versa.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 25, 2012, 02:56:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 02:54:11 PM
Things have changed. We now deport war refusers back to the US. :showoff:
We got rid of the draft. :showoff:
And that probably explains why we now deport war refusers.
They signed up for the military. They knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 25, 2012, 02:56:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 02:54:11 PM
Things have changed. We now deport war refusers back to the US. :showoff:
We got rid of the draft. :showoff:
Not the NFL draft. Though I don't expect that CdM has to worry about getting taken in that one.
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 02:34:04 PM
Generally speaking you have to make it to the actual country in order to seek refugee status. So if you want to seek asylum in Canada, your brit would have to fly to Canada.
you can seek asylum at any embassy or military ship, no?
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2012, 03:16:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 02:34:04 PM
Generally speaking you have to make it to the actual country in order to seek refugee status. So if you want to seek asylum in Canada, your brit would have to fly to Canada.
you can seek asylum at any embassy or military ship.
can and can.... Norway refuses all requests for asylum made at embassies and doesn't let non-nato furriners anywhere near her military ships
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2012, 03:16:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 02:34:04 PM
Generally speaking you have to make it to the actual country in order to seek refugee status. So if you want to seek asylum in Canada, your brit would have to fly to Canada.
you can seek asylum at any embassy or military ship, no?
For Canada, no.
You are required to claim refugee status when you first enter the country. That's because we don't want to have the "Julian Assange stuck in the embassy" problem in part, but also because of the "first safe country" rule - you're supposed to claim refugee status in the first "safe" country you enter, and not pick and choose.
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2012, 03:16:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 25, 2012, 02:34:04 PM
Generally speaking you have to make it to the actual country in order to seek refugee status. So if you want to seek asylum in Canada, your brit would have to fly to Canada.
you can seek asylum at any embassy or military ship, no?
You can request asylum anywhere you happen to be. But if you're sitting in a jail cell in LA, asking the jailer for asylum in Bangladesh isn't going to do a lick of good. :P:
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2012, 02:04:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 25, 2012, 01:30:54 PM
You're all ignoring the fact that this makes Canada a slave to England!
it does sends that message. I'm not sure Canada will be seen in a good light in some former colonies, where the Union Jack will be flying high beside the maple leaf.
Any former colonies they should be particular concerned about?
Quote from: Valmy on September 25, 2012, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2012, 02:04:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 25, 2012, 01:30:54 PM
You're all ignoring the fact that this makes Canada a slave to England!
it does sends that message. I'm not sure Canada will be seen in a good light in some former colonies, where the Union Jack will be flying high beside the maple leaf.
Any former colonies they should be particular concerned about?
I didn't even know we had colonies. :(
If they are handing them out, we'd like Florida and Costa Rica. Thanks. :)
Quote from: Malthus on September 25, 2012, 04:58:10 PM
If they are handing them out, we'd like Florida and Costa Rica. Thanks. :)
You can't have Florida! :mad:
Cuba's free though.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 25, 2012, 05:03:04 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 25, 2012, 04:58:10 PM
If they are handing them out, we'd like Florida and Costa Rica. Thanks. :)
You can't have Florida! :mad:
Cuba's free though.
Cigars, rum, hott babes? Or former swampland full of geriatric Canucks and Jews? :hmm:
Okay, you talked me into it. :)
Quote from: Malthus on September 25, 2012, 04:58:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 25, 2012, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2012, 02:04:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 25, 2012, 01:30:54 PM
You're all ignoring the fact that this makes Canada a slave to England!
it does sends that message. I'm not sure Canada will be seen in a good light in some former colonies, where the Union Jack will be flying high beside the maple leaf.
Any former colonies they should be particular concerned about?
I didn't even know we had colonies. :(
If they are handing them out, we'd like Florida and Costa Rica. Thanks. :)
Wasn't there some suggestion at the time of the creation of canada that it should include all british territories in the americas including carribean territories like Jamaica, Barbados and Guyana.
Quote from: Viking on September 25, 2012, 05:06:43 PM
Wasn't there some suggestion at the time of the creation of canada that it should include all british territories in the americas including carribean territories like Jamaica, Barbados and Guyana.
Canada was pushing for something like this during the Treaty of Versailles as well IIRC.
It seems a good idea, and apparently there are plans for both countries to do the same with Oz and NZ soon.
Quote from: Viking on September 25, 2012, 05:06:43 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 25, 2012, 04:58:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 25, 2012, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 25, 2012, 02:04:13 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 25, 2012, 01:30:54 PM
You're all ignoring the fact that this makes Canada a slave to England!
it does sends that message. I'm not sure Canada will be seen in a good light in some former colonies, where the Union Jack will be flying high beside the maple leaf.
Any former colonies they should be particular concerned about?
I didn't even know we had colonies. :(
If they are handing them out, we'd like Florida and Costa Rica. Thanks. :)
Wasn't there some suggestion at the time of the creation of canada that it should include all british territories in the americas including carribean territories like Jamaica, Barbados and Guyana.
Not sure, but at the time of its creation Canada didn't include a lot of modern Canada. IIRC, it was just the southern parts of Ontario and Quebec, plus the maritime provinces less Newfoundland. The prarie province and B.C. were added fairly quickly, but they didn't get the Arctic areas until shortly before WWI, and Newfoundland wasn't added until 1949.
The Northwest Territories and Rupert's Land were transfered from the Hudson's Bay Company to Canada in 1870, 3 years after confederation. The northern islands were directly controlled by the UK until 1880.
I heard Alan Goltlieb interviewed this evening about the issue. I thought he summed it up pretty well - "tempest in a teapot"
Quote from: Viking on September 25, 2012, 05:06:43 PM
Wasn't there some suggestion at the time of the creation of canada that it should include all british territories in the americas including carribean territories like Jamaica, Barbados and Guyana.
there has often been suggestions that Quebec or Canada (depending on who's suggesting it) buy some tropical island. Last time, I think it was Turk&Caicos, suggested by a Liberal MP (Federal), but a PQ MP has once suggested, a long, long time ago (end of 70s, early 80s) that we buy our own island once Quebec secede from Canada.
If Quebec secedes, I rather doubt they'll be buying much of anything.
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2012, 03:02:52 PM
If Quebec secedes, I rather doubt they'll be buying much of anything.
This was thought in a time when debt didn't matter, governments spent on anything & everything like there was no tomorrow. Of course, no one is suggesting this now. Well, not unless it involves redefining what is "rich" and finding new ways to tax them to death.
As shielbh says there are already talks about doing this with Australia and NZ too.
Quote"This is a dumb idea. There are many parts of the world where it's best not to be identified with Britain, such as in the Caribbean and Africa where Britain was a colonial power,"
This is an amazingly ignorant quote. There's not many ex-colonies out there where the masses regard Britain badly because of the empire. Britain tends to have pretty good relations with most commonwealth countries.
The truly dodgy thing about this move isn't from the Canadian side but the British side. It really shows the tories being very traditionally tory, boosting the white commonwealth and trying to distance themself from the EU.
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2012, 12:01:11 AM
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2012, 03:02:52 PM
If Quebec secedes, I rather doubt they'll be buying much of anything.
This was thought in a time when debt didn't matter, governments spent on anything & everything like there was no tomorrow. Of course, no one is suggesting this now. Well, not unless it involves redefining what is "rich" and finding new ways to tax them to death.
Yeah, a 60% top rate isn't going to endear Quebec to a lot of high earners, and if I were a doctor, the 55% rate would have me getting the fuck out of dodge.
What are capital gains tax rates like in Quebec?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 29, 2012, 10:01:18 AM
What are capital gains tax rates like in Quebec?
It has yet to come up.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 29, 2012, 10:01:18 AM
What are capital gains tax rates like in Quebec?
50% for now, 75% soon.
Quote from: Tyr on September 29, 2012, 12:24:30 AM
This is an amazingly ignorant quote. There's not many ex-colonies out there where the masses regard Britain badly because of the empire. Britain tends to have pretty good relations with most commonwealth countries.
Yeah I was like...um the Bahamas and Jamaica and company actually have great relations with Britain.
And almost all of the money they take in via taxes goes to organized crime.
Quote from: Neil on September 28, 2012, 03:02:52 PM
If Quebec secedes, I rather doubt they'll be buying much of anything.
They might wind up like the Newfies. Go broke and have Canada buy them back. :P
Quote from: Neil on September 29, 2012, 12:44:45 PM
And almost all of the money they take in via taxes goes to organized crime.
Actually, Ontario is the most corrupt province in Canada, according to the RCMP. Strangely enough, no Canadian media is reporting this on their frontpage... must be a minor oversight.
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2012, 06:45:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 29, 2012, 12:44:45 PM
And almost all of the money they take in via taxes goes to organized crime.
Actually, Ontario is the most corrupt province in Canada, according to the RCMP. Strangely enough, no Canadian media is reporting this on their frontpage... must be a minor oversight.
our politicians, our construction industry, our financial industry? be more precise :P
Quote from: Valmy on September 29, 2012, 12:31:26 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2012, 12:28:19 PM
50% for now, 75% soon.
Holy crap.
50% of it is taxable, soon, 75% of it will be taxable.
Tax rates:
http://www.revenuquebec.ca/en/citoyen/impots/rens_comp/taux.aspx
Two new tax levels will be added, possibly retroactively to January 1st: 28% for 130 000$ - 250 000$ and then 32% for all above.
+ the Federal part:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html
GST+PST = 14,975%, 15% by 2014, but we expect the PQ to raise the taxes one more point to compensante for their spending spree and the destruction of our economy.
+ various wage taxes we have to pay: unemployment insurance, public pension funds (RRQ for Quebec), parental leave insurance, health tax (employer only), work accident insurance (employer only) and non unionized workers tax (employer only).
Quote from: HVC on September 29, 2012, 06:49:50 PM
our politicians, our construction industry, our financial industry? be more precise :P
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Ontario+detective+says+Mafia+groups+operate+light+among/7272824/story.html (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Ontario+detective+says+Mafia+groups+operate+light+among/7272824/story.html)
Quebec also does their provincial tax weird. They tax it on top of the GST (federal tax). so Most civilized province taxed (PST+GST) X Cost, but Quebec does it ((GSTXCost)+cost) X PST.
Trying every little trick to get more cash :lol:
link won't load for me :(
Quote from: HVC on September 29, 2012, 07:04:31 PM
Quebec also does their provincial tax weird. They tax it on top of the GST (federal tax). so Most civilized province taxed (PST+GST) X Cost, but Quebec does it ((GSTXCost)+cost) X PST.
Trying every little trick to get more cash :lol:
It's getting Harmonized in the near future too, the deal is done, HST will be around 19.5%.
19.5? How'd that happen. You have a 9.25 or something pst now, plus 5 for gst. How'd they get the 5 percent bump?
Quote from: HVC on October 02, 2012, 07:19:21 AM
19.5? How'd that happen. You have a 9.25 or something pst now, plus 5 for gst. How'd they get the 5 percent bump?
To compensate the tax on tax.
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2012, 06:45:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 29, 2012, 12:44:45 PM
And almost all of the money they take in via taxes goes to organized crime.
Actually, Ontario is the most corrupt province in Canada, according to the RCMP. Strangely enough, no Canadian media is reporting this on their frontpage... must be a minor oversight.
This is what Vipes is referring to.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/09/18/in-response-to-le-telejournal/
Not exactly the best rebuttal to soothe Quebec nationalists! :lol:
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 02, 2012, 07:09:45 AM
It's getting Harmonized in the near future too, the deal is done, HST will be around 19.5%.
HST will be 15%. The total tax is 14,975% currently.
If the PQ wanted to erase the current deficit, all things being equal, they'd need to raise the sales tax level at 19,5% on top of their tax hikes.
Quote from: Malthus on October 02, 2012, 07:54:26 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 29, 2012, 06:45:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 29, 2012, 12:44:45 PM
And almost all of the money they take in via taxes goes to organized crime.
Actually, Ontario is the most corrupt province in Canada, according to the RCMP. Strangely enough, no Canadian media is reporting this on their frontpage... must be a minor oversight.
This is what Vipes is referring to.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/09/18/in-response-to-le-telejournal/
Not exactly the best rebuttal to soothe Quebec nationalists! :lol:
No, it's not the same officer. The one interviewed by Enquête is a retired police officer. The one interviewed by the Commission Charbonneau is an active duty RCMP investigator specialized in organized crime.
Here is the text:
Quote
MONTREAL - A detective from Ontario took centre stage at Quebec's inquiry into corruption in the construction industry on Thursday, outlining some of the broad trends in organized crime that he has witnessed in his home province.
Detective Constable Mike Amato of the York Regional Police department explained to the commissioners that in Ontario, and the greater Toronto area in particular, the 'Ndrangheta crime families (originating in Italy's Calabria region) are the most powerful players. Quebec, in contrast, has mainly been dominated over the last decades by Cosa Nostra (Sicilian) mob families — namely the Rizzuto clan.
In Toronto, the 'Ndrangheta and Cosa Nostra appear to coexist more easily, Amato said, and even assist each other — when it suits them.
"Obviously, at times there's conflicts," added the 25-year police veteran. "There's murder, there's violence, there's bombings."
Much of this internal strife is undetectable by law enforcement agencies, however, because the Ontario mobsters tend to stay "under the radar," Amato said.
"Every so often, you might see that someone who was walking straight is now walking crooked. ... There is violence, but it's undetected and it's unknown to us."
In many ways, Amato's testimony seemed to echo that of Italian scholar Valentina Tenti, who took the stand earlier in the week and gave the commissioners a crash course in the Italian mob, as it exists both in Italy and abroad. Amato confirmed Tenti's assertion that over the years, Mafia organizations around the globe have become increasingly adept at infiltrating the legitimate business market, using restaurants, trucking companies, construction firms and other businesses as fronts for criminal activities behind the scenes.
"They do not operate in the dark, they operate in the light, among us," Amato said. "You have persons who are accountants, bankers, bus drivers, in all sectors of public life.
"They need these legitimate businesses to launder their criminal profits. ... It also allows someone to explain their wealth."
Like Tenti, Amato also stressed that mob families are highly adaptable and flexible organizations, re-structuring and changing tactics as they move into new regions and as technology improves. The Ontario and Quebec organizations may cooperate when it is advantageous to both parties, he said, as has been the case with certain Internet gambling operations.
"As we evolve as a society, so does organized crime," Amato explained. "They're just sometimes quicker and better at it than we are."
Amato completed his testimony during the morning session.
On Thursday afternoon, Justice Charbonneau was asked by a lawyer representing the Coalition Avenir Québec to consider granting the provincial opposition party "participant" status, which would allow their lawyer to cross-examine witnesses. The Parti Québécois and the City of Montreal, among others, have been granted this status. After calling a recess, Charbonneau chose instead to grant the CAQ "intervenor" status, meaning the party will not be allowed to question witnesses, but will be given access to documents before they are entered into evidence and can propose questions to the commission's lawyers.
Quote from: viper37 on October 02, 2012, 09:11:20 AM
Here is the text:
Quote
MONTREAL - A detective from Ontario took centre stage at Quebec's inquiry into corruption in the construction industry on Thursday, outlining some of the broad trends in organized crime that he has witnessed in his home province.
Detective Constable Mike Amato of the York Regional Police department explained to the commissioners that in Ontario, and the greater Toronto area in particular, the 'Ndrangheta crime families (originating in Italy's Calabria region) are the most powerful players. Quebec, in contrast, has mainly been dominated over the last decades by Cosa Nostra (Sicilian) mob families — namely the Rizzuto clan.
In Toronto, the 'Ndrangheta and Cosa Nostra appear to coexist more easily, Amato said, and even assist each other — when it suits them.
"Obviously, at times there's conflicts," added the 25-year police veteran. "There's murder, there's violence, there's bombings."
Much of this internal strife is undetectable by law enforcement agencies, however, because the Ontario mobsters tend to stay "under the radar," Amato said.
"Every so often, you might see that someone who was walking straight is now walking crooked. ... There is violence, but it's undetected and it's unknown to us."
In many ways, Amato's testimony seemed to echo that of Italian scholar Valentina Tenti, who took the stand earlier in the week and gave the commissioners a crash course in the Italian mob, as it exists both in Italy and abroad. Amato confirmed Tenti's assertion that over the years, Mafia organizations around the globe have become increasingly adept at infiltrating the legitimate business market, using restaurants, trucking companies, construction firms and other businesses as fronts for criminal activities behind the scenes.
"They do not operate in the dark, they operate in the light, among us," Amato said. "You have persons who are accountants, bankers, bus drivers, in all sectors of public life.
"They need these legitimate businesses to launder their criminal profits. ... It also allows someone to explain their wealth."
Like Tenti, Amato also stressed that mob families are highly adaptable and flexible organizations, re-structuring and changing tactics as they move into new regions and as technology improves. The Ontario and Quebec organizations may cooperate when it is advantageous to both parties, he said, as has been the case with certain Internet gambling operations.
"As we evolve as a society, so does organized crime," Amato explained. "They're just sometimes quicker and better at it than we are."
Amato completed his testimony during the morning session.
On Thursday afternoon, Justice Charbonneau was asked by a lawyer representing the Coalition Avenir Québec to consider granting the provincial opposition party "participant" status, which would allow their lawyer to cross-examine witnesses. The Parti Québécois and the City of Montreal, among others, have been granted this status. After calling a recess, Charbonneau chose instead to grant the CAQ "intervenor" status, meaning the party will not be allowed to question witnesses, but will be given access to documents before they are entered into evidence and can propose questions to the commission's lawyers.
Yeah, I read that.
It doesn't say that "Ontario is the most corrupt province in Canada, according to the RCMP". At least, this part you posted doesn't, does it?
It just says that the Mafia operates in his home province of Ontario and that it mostly does so "under the radar" as it were.
The entire testimony is here:
https://www.ceic.gouv.qc.ca/fileadmin/Fichiers_client/fichiers/Transcriptions/Transcription_audience_CEIC_2012-09-20.pdf
There is still no basis to say Quebec is the most corrupt provine, Ontario seems to have the same problem, but they don't want to admit it.
Quote from: viper37 on October 02, 2012, 10:24:51 AM
The entire testimony is here:
https://www.ceic.gouv.qc.ca/fileadmin/Fichiers_client/fichiers/Transcriptions/Transcription_audience_CEIC_2012-09-20.pdf
There is still no basis to say Quebec is the most corrupt provine, Ontario seems to have the same problem, but they don't want to admit it.
No-one denies Ontario (and other provinces) have issues with the Mafia, bikers, and other gangsters.
The problem with Quebec is not that they have mafia and others do not, it is more generally with political corruption - particularly under the Liberals.
This is hardly a secret. The Liberals were just handed a major election defeat, in part because of their lamentable record of corruption.
Of course there is. Francophones are naturally more corrupt than more advanced races.
Quote from: Neil on October 02, 2012, 10:51:22 AM
Of course there is. Francophones are naturally more corrupt than more advanced races.
I know when I spoke French I was overcome with a desire to take bribes, start protection rackets, and put undeserving relatives into positions of authority.
Quote from: Malthus on October 02, 2012, 10:50:40 AM
No-one denies Ontario (and other provinces) have issues with the Mafia, bikers, and other gangsters.
mafia does not operate alone on its side of the fence, in its own sandbox. Where there is mafia, there is political&bureaucratic corruption. Otherwise, they can't freely operate.
QuoteThe problem with Quebec is not that they have mafia and others do not, it is more generally with political corruption - particularly under the Liberals.
So far, only one politician has been accused of corruption and he still is not convicted.
Quote
This is hardly a secret. The Liberals were just handed a major election defeat, in part because of their lamentable record of corruption.
55 MPs for the PQ, 50 for the PLQ. I wouldn't call that a major election defeat, after 9 years and 3 times in government.