Poll
Question:
Who had the best shot at achieving lasting world hegemony?
Option 1: Roman Empire - All Roads Lead to Rome
votes: 2
Option 2: Umayyad Caliphate - Allahu Akbar!
votes: 0
Option 3: Song Dynasty - The Middle Kingdom
votes: 1
Option 4: Mongol Empire - It is not sufficient that I suceed, all others must fail
votes: 1
Option 5: Ming Empire - The 8th voyage of Admirial Zheng He
votes: 0
Option 6: Ottoman Empire - The Eternal State
votes: 0
Option 7: Hapsburg Empire - Let others wage war; you, fortunate Austria, marry
votes: 1
Option 8: Mughal Empire - A king should deem no one his relation
votes: 0
Option 9: House of Bourbon - I am the state
votes: 0
Option 10: First British Empire - The Sun Never Sets on the British Empire
votes: 8
Option 11: First French Empire - Liberté, égalité, fraternité
votes: 2
Option 12: Japanese Empire - All the World Under One Roof
votes: 0
Option 13: Third Reich - Deutschland über alles
votes: 0
Option 14: Soviet Union - Workers of the World Unite!
votes: 0
Option 15: United States of America - An Empire of Liberty
votes: 8
Option 16: Other
votes: 3
Option 17: World Domination is Impossible
votes: 11
Did this a couple of years ago but it's since been lost to the void, so lets see if there any new thoughts on the matter. All the cool super-villains want it, but who had the best chance of getting it?
Added a few new contenders as well and tried to make it less Eurocentric. These include the Song Dynasty, the House of Bourbon, the Mughal Empire and the Empire of Japan.
For those wishing to vote for Spain, it's covered by the Hapsburg and Bourbon options.
QuoteDuetchland
:bleeding:
What is this bullshit? I thought CdM was suppose to protecting us from this kind of thing!
The Song. The combination of technolgy, liberalism, reason, population, resources would be a winning combination had it not been for the squat ugric chaps on small horses.
Quote from: Viking on September 16, 2012, 09:14:30 AM
The Song. The combination of technolgy, liberalism, reason, population, resources would be a winning combination had it not been for the squat ugric chaps on small horses.
Is that by The Band?
None of the above. The pre-modern empires lacked the technology to avoid fracturing, the early modern empires were incapable of overcoming their rivals, and the superpowers were hemmed in by The Bomb.
The United States has not reached its full potential yet. If it becomes less white and increases its birth/immigration rate (while the rest of the world gets Americanized / speaks English), the U.S. can become better positioned to achieve world domination.
Quote from: Syt on September 16, 2012, 09:08:11 AM
QuoteDuetchland
:bleeding:
Whoops. Can a mod fix that if possible?
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 09:35:59 AM
The United States has not reached its full potential yet. If it becomes less white and increases its birth/immigration rate (while the rest of the world gets Americanized / speaks English), the U.S. can become better positioned to achieve world domination.
The evidence doesn't seem to support your assertion.
Quote from: Neil on September 16, 2012, 09:50:36 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 09:35:59 AM
The United States has not reached its full potential yet. If it becomes less white and increases its birth/immigration rate (while the rest of the world gets Americanized / speaks English), the U.S. can become better positioned to achieve world domination.
The evidence doesn't seem to support your assertion.
What evidence.
I'm surprised this mentions The Third Reich (which lasted for 10 years after it started to annex neighbours) and not, eg., Alexander's empire.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2012, 01:40:59 PM
I'm surprised this mentions The Third Reich (which lasted for 10 years after it started to annex neighbours) and not, eg., Alexander's empire.
Two words: Timmaytard. Poll.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 09:35:59 AM
The United States has not reached its full potential yet. If it becomes less white and increases its birth/immigration rate (while the rest of the world gets Americanized / speaks English), the U.S. can become better positioned to achieve world domination.
Man, i'm, on Neil with this one. Becoming less White is the most foolhardy roadmap for success I've yet heard.
Quote
I'm surprised this mentions The Third Reich (which lasted for 10 years after it started to annex neighbours) and not, eg., Alexander's empire.
That might be pretty silly, but it's not quite as bad as the Japanese Empire sneaking into the poll. INFILTRATION DOCTRINE
How does including the Bourbons make it less Eurocentric?
Quote from: Lettow77 on September 16, 2012, 01:44:37 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 09:35:59 AM
The United States has not reached its full potential yet. If it becomes less white and increases its birth/immigration rate (while the rest of the world gets Americanized / speaks English), the U.S. can become better positioned to achieve world domination.
Man, i'm, on Neil with this one. Becoming less White is the most foolhardy roadmap for success I've yet heard.
It's easier to control and assimilate foreign brown people when you have American brown people.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 01:53:41 PM
It's easier to control and assimilate foreign brown people when you have American brown people.
Not at all. In fact, it becomes much, much more difficult.
A big part of the reason Imperialism was so successful is brown people bought into the idea that white people were different, superior, godlike. This is a tough sell for someone who looks just like you do.
When God stopped all the burning bushes and pillars of fire and said "Hey! I'll look just like a typical JEW" they nailed his ass to a cross real quick. Same concept, only without divinity.
Quote from: Jaron on September 16, 2012, 02:09:25 PM
A big part of the reason Imperialism was so successful is brown people bought into the idea that white people were different, superior, godlike. This is a tough sell for someone who looks just like you do.
When God stopped all the burning bushes and pillars of fire and said "Hey! I'll look just like a typical JEW" they nailed his ass to a cross real quick. Same concept, only without divinity.
That was a big reason why imperialism was so successful
in the past. Now, similar looks and understanding of subjugated culture/language is needed. Otherwise, Iraq and Afghanistan should be bending over for us right now.
Poor examples. They aren't blowing people up because they're white. If you look at Africa though, those villagers are in awe of Sally Struthers.
Quote from: Jaron on September 16, 2012, 02:36:59 PM
Poor examples. They aren't blowing people up because they're white. If you look at Africa though, those villagers are in awe of Sally Struthers.
Africans are in awe of Sally Stuthers because she is fat and they want to eat her.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 02:31:53 PM
Quote from: Jaron on September 16, 2012, 02:09:25 PM
A big part of the reason Imperialism was so successful is brown people bought into the idea that white people were different, superior, godlike. This is a tough sell for someone who looks just like you do.
When God stopped all the burning bushes and pillars of fire and said "Hey! I'll look just like a typical JEW" they nailed his ass to a cross real quick. Same concept, only without divinity.
That was a big reason why imperialism was so successful in the past. Now, similar looks and understanding of subjugated culture/language is needed. Otherwise, Iraq and Afghanistan should be bending over for us right now.
Not at all. They're just stronger than you. They're willing to fight for years.
Quote from: Neil on September 16, 2012, 02:43:32 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 02:31:53 PM
Quote from: Jaron on September 16, 2012, 02:09:25 PM
A big part of the reason Imperialism was so successful is brown people bought into the idea that white people were different, superior, godlike. This is a tough sell for someone who looks just like you do.
When God stopped all the burning bushes and pillars of fire and said "Hey! I'll look just like a typical JEW" they nailed his ass to a cross real quick. Same concept, only without divinity.
That was a big reason why imperialism was so successful in the past. Now, similar looks and understanding of subjugated culture/language is needed. Otherwise, Iraq and Afghanistan should be bending over for us right now.
Not at all. They're just stronger than you. They're willing to fight for years.
There is both hard power and soft power. For example, if we decided to indoctrinate Afghan children, making them literate and Americanized, it is just not possible because we lack the human capital.
Also it's hard to get Basic Cable in a mud hut.
Afghanistan would be better if we let (and encouraged) American soldiers to intermarry with the Afghan women.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 03:05:22 PM
Afghanistan would be better if we let (and encouraged) American soldiers to intermarry with the Afghan women.
You'd have few takers I think. Besides, why the hell would we want to rule other countries? Almost every country in the world trades with us and nearly everyone abides by the world system the US put into place. I'm happy with that. The great up and coming power, China, isn't interested in overturning the system, but to rise with in it.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 03:05:22 PM
Afghanistan would be better if we let (and encouraged) American soldiers to intermarry with the Afghan women.
The problem with that is that they'd be bringing their wives back to the US rather than settling in Afganistan. After all, the US will be out of Afghanistan soon enough, and then everybody who collaborated is going to get killed.
That and Afghan women are ugly.
Quote from: Jaron on September 16, 2012, 03:33:58 PM
That and Afghan women are ugly.
Afghan men do seem to like chopping off noses and ears.
Quote from: Phillip V on September 16, 2012, 03:05:22 PM
Afghanistan would be better if we let (and encouraged) American soldiers to intermarry with the Afghan women.
Afghanistan women can make fine wives; I have a few sources.
Of all mentioned I think only the British had even a glimmer of a hope so I voted for them, although up til now I'd say that realistically world domination has not been a real possibility.
The Romans and Alexander both conquered all of the "world that matters" so there is that.
The reason I think the British had the best shot is they were well established as colonial powers, their navy insulated them from any threat from other European powers, they had already acquired a lot of land, and they had a fairly manageable hands-off imperialist policy that meant it wasn't too hard for them to keep their flag flying over places they really didn't have to work very hard to control or keep in the Empire. Of course history showed that once those imperial subjects got the slightest desire to go their own way, all those things I just said contributed to how easy it was, and the British never had the stomach to wage major wars to keep countries subjugated.
Quote from: Jaron on September 16, 2012, 03:33:58 PM
That and Afghan women are ugly.
There's something under there...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.birdsontheblog.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F04%2Fburqua-and-miss-afghanistan.png&hash=54c6a9757ee6878513c649c44dfa55aaaef0e6f9)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3594%2F3311832843_e8061d6141.jpg&hash=cb9b9a34f047f3d2b0ba481505233e5cf5bd5555) (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.afghanchaman.com%2Fimages%2Fvida%2520samadzai1.jpg&hash=fd49a01ebfee9fdd7366641e4b6d3bf5db418ded)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm0.ttxm.co.uk%2Fimages%2Fgalleries%2Fnews%2Fdaily%2F20060831%2Flarge%2F20060831_22_aa002-0831111440.jpg&hash=94d2a435a546f69efb2a25a6f703da5ace81873e)
Quote from: Viking on September 16, 2012, 09:14:30 AM
The Song. The combination of technolgy, liberalism, reason, population, resources would be a winning combination had it not been for the squat ugric chaps on small horses.
Ugric?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on September 16, 2012, 04:51:17 PM
Of all mentioned I think only the British had even a glimmer of a hope so I voted for them, although up til now I'd say that realistically world domination has not been a real possibility.
The Romans and Alexander both conquered all of the "world that matters" so there is that.
Romans never conquered Parthia, and had a pretty good idea that there was a lot of wealth even beyond that. I think there's a real argument to be made that Alexander conquered most of the world that really mattered at that point-the Persian Empire had (IIRC) the highest concentration of GDP within a polity ever by a substantial margin, and during Alexander's time trade links with China were in their infancy. I don't think Carthage, Rome or even Arabia mattered that much compared to what he had.
Quote from: Martinus on September 16, 2012, 01:40:59 PM
I'm surprised this mentions The Third Reich (which lasted for 10 years after it started to annex neighbours) and not, eg., Alexander's empire.
Alexander's Empire also lasted only 10 years from the beginning of Alexander's campaigns and it disintegrated because of internal strife.
I think the Mongols probably came closest to something resembling "global domination"-the Americas and sub-Saharan Africa were obviously out of the question, but Egypt and Western Europe would probably not have been the most taxing Mongol campaign.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on September 16, 2012, 04:51:17 PM
Of course history showed that once those imperial subjects got the slightest desire to go their own way, all those things I just said contributed to how easy it was, and the British never had the stomach to wage major wars to keep countries subjugated.
They did manage to keep the subcontinent for almost a hundred years after the Mutiny.
Who voted for Other and why?
no.
British.
No American revolution, integrate the Americas into the UK setting a prescedent for the future. Bam, solid long lasting empire built on liberty, democracy and mutual-prosperity.
QuoteThey did manage to keep the subcontinent for almost a hundred years after the Mutiny.
That was when the British empire in India began. And it was hardly subjugation. The mutineers were a small minority with little public support and the history of British India is one of continued democratic reform towards the clear end goal of full self rule.
Quote from: Tyr on September 16, 2012, 07:06:15 PM
British.
No American revolution, integrate the Americas into the UK setting a prescedent for the future. Bam, solid long lasting empire built on liberty, democracy and mutual-prosperity.
QuoteThey did manage to keep the subcontinent for almost a hundred years after the Mutiny.
That was when the British empire in India began. And it was hardly subjugation. The mutineers were a small minority with little public support and the history of British India is one of continued democratic reform towards the clear end goal of full self rule.
The East Indian Company was an extension of the British state.
Quote from: Tyr on September 16, 2012, 07:06:15 PM
British.
No American revolution, integrate the Americas into the UK setting a prescedent for the future. Bam, solid long lasting empire built on liberty, democracy and mutual-prosperity.
Until public opinion in Britain turns against slavery and the American colonies revolt. And then there would be the problems with the Western frontier.
Quote from: Neil on September 16, 2012, 07:27:30 PM
Quote from: Tyr on September 16, 2012, 07:06:15 PM
British.
No American revolution, integrate the Americas into the UK setting a prescedent for the future. Bam, solid long lasting empire built on liberty, democracy and mutual-prosperity.
Until public opinion in Britain turns against slavery and the American colonies revolt. And then there would be the problems with the Western frontier.
So, what? The Northern colonies would support Britain and the South would be crushed.
What about the Western frontier. The next time they fight France and Spain the Americans will overrun Louisiana, Texas and California.
I feel a Timmaytard alt-hist map being created right at this very moment.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 16, 2012, 07:31:09 PM
So, what? The Northern colonies would support Britain and the South would be crushed.
What about the Western frontier. The next time they fight France and Spain the Americans will overrun Louisiana, Texas and California.
Why would the North turn their back on slavery? Americans loved slavery. That was the whole point of your little rebellion.
The problem with the West is that Britain would be likely to treat with the local Indians, whereas the Americans would want to steal their land and murder them.
Quote from: Neil on September 16, 2012, 07:46:45 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 16, 2012, 07:31:09 PM
So, what? The Northern colonies would support Britain and the South would be crushed.
What about the Western frontier. The next time they fight France and Spain the Americans will overrun Louisiana, Texas and California.
Why would the North turn their back on slavery? Americans loved slavery. That was the whole point of your little rebellion.
The problem with the West is that Britain would be likely to treat with the local Indians, whereas the Americans would want to steal their land and murder them.
I also doubt that the North would have kept suffering the repression of its trade and manufacturing under Britain's mercantilist policies.
Quote from: Neil on September 16, 2012, 07:46:45 PM
whereas the Americans would want to steal their land and murder them.
Yeah, you Canadians have such a sterling record with them, Duncan Campbell Scott.
Quote from: Viking on September 16, 2012, 09:14:30 AM
The Song. The combination of technolgy, liberalism, reason, population, resources would be a winning combination had it not been for the squat ugric chaps on small horses.
The Song is usually considered the weakest of all Chinese dynasties. The Song was established after the fall of the Tang dynasty. The Tang fell because it placed too much power in the hands of the border generals, eventually leading to warlordism and rebellions. The Song learned the lesson. They centralised power, distrusted their generals and maintained strict civilian control over the military. They considered it fine if they kept their own generals in line even at the expense of losing the border wars with the nomads.
I am therefore surprised that the Song is included in the polls. They spent most of their time defending (and failing to do so). A better choice is the Tang for this poll. They extended to Central Asia on several occasions.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2012, 08:47:18 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 16, 2012, 09:14:30 AM
The Song. The combination of technolgy, liberalism, reason, population, resources would be a winning combination had it not been for the squat ugric chaps on small horses.
The Song is usually considered the weakest of all Chinese dynasties. The Song was established after the fall of the Tang dynasty. The Tang fell because it placed too much power in the hands of the border generals, eventually leading to warlordism and rebellions. The Song learned the lesson. They centralised power, distrusted their generals and maintained strict civilian control over the military. They considered it fine if they kept their own generals in line even at the expense of losing the border wars with the nomads.
I am therefore surprised that the Song is included in the polls. They spent most of their time defending (and failing). A better choice is the Tang for this poll. They extended to Central Asia on several occasions.
The Song are highly regarded in the West for their technological innovations. Without the Mongols, some believe they would have went through the equivalent of a renaissance and industrial revolution first.
Quote from: Monoriu on September 16, 2012, 08:47:18 PM
A better choice is the Tang for this poll.
Or cream of sum yung gai.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 16, 2012, 08:02:35 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 16, 2012, 07:46:45 PM
whereas the Americans would want to steal their land and murder them.
Yeah, you Canadians have such a sterling record with them, Duncan Campbell Scott.
I'm just saying, the early Americans were Nazis. If the Germans had won World War II, in a century they'd be electing Barry Obamawitz for Fuhrer.
Also, I was the one who voted 'other' and made Tim angry.
Quote from: Neil on September 16, 2012, 09:00:05 PM
Also, I was the one who voted 'other' and made Tim angry.
I figured it was Ed, and "Other" meant "Ohio State".
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 16, 2012, 08:50:22 PM
The Song are highly regarded in the West for their technological innovations. Without the Mongols, some believe they would have went through the equivalent of a renaissance and industrial revolution first.
But then they'd invent the automobile and kill themselves. There's a reason for the Asian driver stereotype.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 16, 2012, 09:01:21 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 16, 2012, 09:00:05 PM
Also, I was the one who voted 'other' and made Tim angry.
I figured it was Ed, and "Other" meant "Ohio State".
Brutus would have smashed the Muslim with a power I formation.
Woody Hayes would never have surrendered Jerusalem. Not to Saladin, and certainly not to Schembechler.
:lol:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 16, 2012, 08:50:22 PM
The Song are highly regarded in the West for their technological innovations. Without the Mongols, some believe they would have went through the equivalent of a renaissance and industrial revolution first.
Even without the Mongols, the Song managed to lose their capital, their emperor, almost the entire court, and half their country. They lost the remaining half when the Mongols came along.
Look at the maps. See the greatest extent of the Tang, and the greatest extent of the Song. Chinatown in overseas cities are literally called the "Tang people's streets", not the "Song people's streets".
Brutus would get eaten by a wild animal or carried off to sea.
All this tang talk has made me thirsty.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 16, 2012, 09:12:22 PM
Brutus would get eaten by a wild animal or carried off to sea.
BEHEAD ALL THOSE WHO INSULT BRUTUS
Assuming that all those entities actually desired world domination, I would go with US. For a couple of years they had the monopoly on the bomb, and only two powers that could possibly rival them conventionally. If Truman, Congress, and American people all decided in 1945 that the world had to be ruled by US even at the cost of genocide, US would have the least long odds to actually achieve world domination for a while.
Quote from: Jaron on September 16, 2012, 01:49:43 PM
How does including the Bourbons make it less Eurocentric?
Three of the four new candidates are Asian. The Bourbons were the exception.
The United States, 1945-1948.
Who voted for the 1st French Empire and the Hapsburgs? :hmm:
I wonder if the Other vote was a Spellus write in for the Byzantines.