Poll
Question:
If you had to choose, would you live in London or Singapore?
Option 1: London
votes: 27
Option 2: Singapore
votes: 7
So my wife has transferred departments within the Evil Empire, and that makes it likely that we will be moving some time in the next few years to one of the two. My own skill set is fungible, so I have no worries about being able to find work. I really like the idea of living in either place for a while. Can't decide.
A distant third possibility is Dublin. Which I really like better but I've been there many times now.
singapore is boring as shit...
Personally, I'd chose Singapore at this point of my life. London if I was in my early 20s.
I don't really find the idea of living in the Far East appealing, so London.
London for the weather. Otherwise both seem overcrowded and overpriced.
According to this site:
http://www.orientexpat.com/singapore/laws
QuoteHomosexual acts may lead to imprisonment. Kissing between men, for example, is illegal.
There are very strict laws in place that keep Singapore the squeaky clean place it is. The following are prohibited... Smoking in public, chewing gum, spitting in public, littering, jaywalking. Failure to observe these laws will result in stiff fines.
If you have a balcony or garden, be aware that if you have flower pots, or anywhere that collects water and mosquito larvae subsequently breed, you risk being fined as a result.
Choice - no brainer.
London. I've not been to Singapore and if given a chance I'd move tomorrow, but my impression is that it seems a little like Asia's Switzerland. Very orderly and nice but best for the travel links and (unlike Switzerland, food). From abroad I'd be more excited about Hong Kong or Jakarta, say. But I am ignorant so could well be wrong.
Quote from: Maximus on August 15, 2012, 02:09:34 PM
London for the weather. Otherwise both seem overcrowded and overpriced.
Yep, though presumably Microsoft will be throwing enough money at them they can afford some decent digs.
Quote from: Maximus on August 15, 2012, 02:09:34 PM
London for the weather. Otherwise both seem overcrowded and overpriced.
True, but it's only temporary. Plus an experience.
London seems better for the ability to hop around Europe in our free time. I've never been to Singapore though. People say it's a paradise for good food.
We will most likely get to choose which we want.
Dublin.
London is a great city, but expensive as hell. Are you ready for that?
I wouldn't put off moving to a place because you have been there--you could travel through Europe (and London) easily from Dublin.
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2012, 02:10:49 PM
According to this site:
http://www.orientexpat.com/singapore/laws
QuoteHomosexual acts may lead to imprisonment. Kissing between men, for example, is illegal.
There are very strict laws in place that keep Singapore the squeaky clean place it is. The following are prohibited... Smoking in public, chewing gum, spitting in public, littering, jaywalking. Failure to observe these laws will result in stiff fines.
If you have a balcony or garden, be aware that if you have flower pots, or anywhere that collects water and mosquito larvae subsequently breed, you risk being fined as a result.
Only the first paragraph is a negative, not for me personally but in a general principles sense. The rest are positives.
Expats get generous packages to deal with cost of living difference etc. my company used to do it. American companies pay above the odds because they're convinced that outsourcing the work on that stuff is cheaper. It's really not :lol:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 15, 2012, 02:12:25 PM
Quote from: Maximus on August 15, 2012, 02:09:34 PM
London for the weather. Otherwise both seem overcrowded and overpriced.
Yep, though presumably Microsoft will be throwing enough money at them they can afford some decent digs.
If they get a fair cost of living adjustment and housing allowance, then London. Otherwise, they could probably fly out of Dublin to spots throughout Europe on weekends and probably still come out ahead versus London.
Definitely London. The shortcomings of the British are abundant and obvious, but one thing they do have going for them is the art of conversation.
Quote from: Maximus on August 15, 2012, 02:17:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2012, 02:10:49 PM
According to this site:
http://www.orientexpat.com/singapore/laws
QuoteHomosexual acts may lead to imprisonment. Kissing between men, for example, is illegal.
There are very strict laws in place that keep Singapore the squeaky clean place it is. The following are prohibited... Smoking in public, chewing gum, spitting in public, littering, jaywalking. Failure to observe these laws will result in stiff fines.
If you have a balcony or garden, be aware that if you have flower pots, or anywhere that collects water and mosquito larvae subsequently breed, you risk being fined as a result.
Only the first paragraph is a negative, not for me personally but in a general principles sense. The rest are positives.
New York would be a terrible place if we had to wait for every light and could only cross streets at proper intersections.
I don't have any problems with people smoking (as long as not on top of me) nor chewing gum (as long as they don't then spit it on the ground).
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 15, 2012, 02:19:48 PM
Expats get generous packages to deal with cost of living difference etc. my company used to do it. American companies pay above the odds because they're convinced that outsourcing the work on that stuff is cheaper. It's really not :lol:
It depends. At my company for instance, if someone truly expatriates they go on local payroll and will not get a cost of living difference at all--they will get the market rate in the new country.
If someone goes shorter term, their pay will be adjusted so the cost of living and taxes in the home country keep them consistent as if they stayed home. For example, if I go to the UK short term, I'll get a bump to compensate for higher taxes. If I go to Hong Kong, they will keep a portion of my pay so that I don't get a tax windfall from the lower taxes (this results in some infuriated people that do an assignment in Hong Kong).
I do know more people in London too. A few of you guys live there.
But yeah, Dublin would be ideal for me. I know it well, and I love that city. It's just less likely than the other two.
We need more American connections and interactions with Southeast Asia / East Asia. Go Singapore to do your duty.
I would be happy to spend time in either city. Singapore probably has a better education system for the littile MiMs. Both are central hubs of travel.
London has a better cultural scene - Singapore is more like a police state.
Singapore allows access to more exotic locations for trips.
It is a hard decision. But it probably boils down to London for the familiar and Singapore for the adventure.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 15, 2012, 02:27:16 PM
It depends. At my company for instance, if someone truly expatriates they go on local payroll and will not get a cost of living difference at all--they will get the market rate in the new country.
If someone goes shorter term, their pay will be adjusted so the cost of living and taxes in the home country keep them consistent as if they stayed home. For example, if I go to the UK short term, I'll get a bump to compensate for higher taxes. If I go to Hong Kong, they will keep a portion of my pay so that I don't get a tax windfall from the lower taxes (this results in some infuriated people that do an assignment in Hong Kong).
Yeah it depends on lots, not least length and purpose of the move and your job - and permanent moves are treated totally differently.
The general rule for Western companies is that your standard of living shouldn't be better or worse off for having taken the trip (practically this normally isn't the case). So the standard policy for a Western company, and they vary widely, is that if you're moving from the US to, say, the UK then they'll calculate your pay net of pension plan, taxes and housing - then they'll index that for cost of living, normally the company will then bear the cost of reasonable housing in a similar area and any extra costs such as higher taxes, education or the move of a working spouse.
Similarly if you go to, say, Hong Kong your net salary will still be your US salary net of housing, tax and pensions and then indexed for cost of living. The company will then take the tax windfall but still have cost of housing.
QuoteI would be happy to spend time in either city. Singapore probably has a better education system for the littile MiMs. Both are central hubs of travel.
Actually London's got great state schools, miles ahead of the national average. But chances are, regardless, they'd go to an international school.
I don't have kids, and if we did have some we would probably be back in the states before they reached school age anyway. So that part is relatively unimportant.
How easy is it to hop around Asia from Singapore anyway? I know Mono takes trips to Bangkok and Sri Lanka. It must be cheap if he does it.
Tiny hobbit houses with their tiny appliances. vs Yang's Hive.
Go Anglo Saxon. White Power.
Singapore is a great travel hub.
Singapore also has cheap flights to/from the US.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 15, 2012, 03:05:35 PM
I know Mono takes trips to Bangkok and Sri Lanka. It must be cheap if he does it.
:D
What more do you need to know.
MiM, if travel options are a major determinant, then you probably can't do much better than Singapore and London for their respective regions. It comes down to whether you would prefer to travel in South Asia or Europe.
My $0.02, Singapore gives easy access to Thailand, Indonesia/Bali, the Malay peninsula, Cambodia, and Vietnam.
I think east asia is too far for an easy trip (but still better than from the US obviously). The same for India and Sri Lanka.
Compare that to easy access to all of Europe from London, and not too tough to parts of Africa and the near east. I'd prefer Europe, but that is just my call. Also, I think European destinations lend themselves better to weekend visits than in Southeast Asia.
In terms of the Middle East/North Africa and London the low cost airlines do cheap flights of 3/4 hours to places like Jordan and Morocco. I really want to go to Jordan, but haven't - if you have the chance now or in the future, Morocco's worth a trip :)
Both, one first then the other? :unsure: Both sound nice.
Is this even up for discussion? Clearly London.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 15, 2012, 02:07:30 PM
I don't really find the idea of living in the Far East appealing, so London.
Ditto. Though if Dublin's in the mix, I might choose it over London.
I'd pick London. Singapore seems appealing but I don't really favor that part of the world. Their law abiding nature has its benefits but they go too far with it.
Singapore is a much safer place than London. But don't go there if you really hate fake democracies, government censorship, very tough laws against minor offences like littering, etc. It is also very hot and humid, although the air pollution is much less of a problem than HK or China. They have blue sky and clean air; we don't. It is congested, but sound city planning makes it much more tolerable than HK. In terms of adventure, London itself is a much bigger adventure than Singapore. Singapore is all about order, and it is quite small. The advantage of Singapore is that it is very close to other SE Asian places.
Dublin I'd put top assuming a three way choice.
Never been to Singapore but it strikes me as by far the better option. So much more interesting than bland, stabby London.
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2012, 08:41:14 PM
Dublin I'd put top assuming a three way choice.
Never been to Singapore but it strikes me as by far the better option. So much more interesting than bland, stabby London.
I got this feeling they might execute you there.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2012, 09:21:50 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2012, 08:41:14 PM
Dublin I'd put top assuming a three way choice.
Never been to Singapore but it strikes me as by far the better option. So much more interesting than bland, stabby London.
I got this feeling they might execute you there.
Why?
They are rather strict there. It's essentially a fascist state.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2012, 09:47:02 PM
They are rather strict there. It's essentially a fascist state.
Strict on what?
I can't think of anything I do that would be against their laws. And I'm a white Brit so its unlikely they'd pick on me for no reason.
Michael Fay thought he was immune being American and they caned his punk ass.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2012, 09:21:50 PM
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2012, 08:41:14 PM
Dublin I'd put top assuming a three way choice.
Never been to Singapore but it strikes me as by far the better option. So much more interesting than bland, stabby London.
I got this feeling they might execute you there.
It is a bit far to say that they are a fascist state. But they really do execute people for drug offences.
The ruling party did adopt the symbol of the British Fascists.
'Yet another wealth report has put tiny Singapore on the top of its charts – this time, as the wealthiest nation in the world by GDP per capita, beating Norway, the U.S., Hong Kong and Switzerland.'
http://blogs.wsj.com/scene/2012/08/16/the-worlds-richest-country/
QuoteThe report, released this week by Knight Frank and Citi Private Wealth, estimates that Singapore's GDP per capita – at US$56,532 in 2010, measured by purchasing power parity – is the highest in the world, topping Norway (US$51, 226), the US (US$45, 511) and Hong Kong (US$45, 301). The report also predicts that Singapore will hold its place as the world's most affluent country in 2050 (by GDP per capita), followed closely by Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea who will displace Norway and Switzerland as the world's richest places.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FOB-UE431_singri_G_20120815063804.jpg&hash=3121095971e94a6772d99b0ef464033a79ced34d)
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 15, 2012, 09:57:06 PM
Michael Fay thought he was immune being American and they caned his punk ass.
Maybe Tyr isn't planning to vandalize cars and spraypaint walls?
London of course, Singapore is merely convenient, London is a great city.
Zanza has spent some time in Singapore. Get some input from him.
Quote from: Jacob on August 15, 2012, 11:38:49 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 15, 2012, 09:57:06 PM
Michael Fay thought he was immune being American and they caned his punk ass.
Maybe Tyr isn't planning to vandalize cars and spraypaint walls?
Tyr is a drunk however.
My experience of expatriate life in SE Asia (in my case, quasi-diplomat) suggests to me that Singapore is great if you want to hang out exclusively in an expat bubble and are given the pay to life an equivalent lifestyle to back home. But be warned that as Asian countries have been getting richer and richer, the old days of the white man lording it up over the locals by virtue of outrageously generous salaries (by local standards) are ending. London is expensive, but so will Singapore be if you want to live the kind of lifestyle you are used to.
London is a far more vivacious place. There's more variety, and the character of the city changes markedly from neighbourhood to neighbourhood. It's chaotic and dirty in parts, though pretty safe as most crime afflicts young black men in poor areas. The world comes to London so at a place like Borough market you can fill your belly from English, Thai, Spanish, Ethiopian, French, German and Chinese food stands which will be within metres of each other. Singapore is more ordered and cleaner, and better planned, but it's just a bit dull.
It's also a lot easier to hope from London to Paris, Amsterdam, Cologne, Barcelona, Copenhagen and Dublin than it is from Singapore to Jakarta. Weekend breaks to European capitals on cheap airlines are pretty easy from London, there's not really an equivalent style of travel in SE Asia (we never considered weekend hops to Singapore, Bangkok or KL from Jakarta, for instance. Maybe things have changed now).
London - no contest. I would never accept a relocation to a country where gay sex is a crime, no matter what they say about law not being enforced and what not.
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2012, 02:10:49 PM
According to this site:
http://www.orientexpat.com/singapore/laws
QuoteHomosexual acts may lead to imprisonment. Kissing between men, for example, is illegal.
There are very strict laws in place that keep Singapore the squeaky clean place it is. The following are prohibited... Smoking in public, chewing gum, spitting in public, littering, jaywalking. Failure to observe these laws will result in stiff fines.
If you have a balcony or garden, be aware that if you have flower pots, or anywhere that collects water and mosquito larvae subsequently breed, you risk being fined as a result.
Choice - no brainer.
Ok so they actually are enforced? Yeah, no brainer.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2012, 07:39:00 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2012, 02:10:49 PM
According to this site:
http://www.orientexpat.com/singapore/laws
QuoteHomosexual acts may lead to imprisonment. Kissing between men, for example, is illegal.
There are very strict laws in place that keep Singapore the squeaky clean place it is. The following are prohibited... Smoking in public, chewing gum, spitting in public, littering, jaywalking. Failure to observe these laws will result in stiff fines.
If you have a balcony or garden, be aware that if you have flower pots, or anywhere that collects water and mosquito larvae subsequently breed, you risk being fined as a result.
Choice - no brainer.
Ok so they actually are enforced? Yeah, no brainer.
Okay so did further research on subject as laws have been shuffled about a bit in the 21st century. Looks like gross indecency as a homosexual (which covers public and private) is still on the books but is typically only enforced in cases where the parties were engaged in sex in a public place. LGBT groups are mad as Singapore already has a general gross indecency law so no need to have a homosexual specific version that gives license to harass consenting adults in private.
Homosexual gatherings (like festivals and films) are banned as well as apparently a TV station getting fined for showing homosexual couples raising children and homosexual couples kissing.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 16, 2012, 07:17:28 AM
Quote from: Jacob on August 15, 2012, 11:38:49 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 15, 2012, 09:57:06 PM
Michael Fay thought he was immune being American and they caned his punk ass.
Maybe Tyr isn't planning to vandalize cars and spraypaint walls?
Tyr is a drunk however.
:lol:
If only it were so.
Singapore is tiny. You'll have seen it all and done it all in two weeks - I did when I worked out there briefly. Plus the work ethic is horrendous - they work 12-hour days as standard, and if you ask anyone what they do as a hobby they say "shopping and going to the gym". And as others have said the regime is horrendously strict - jail for littering and jaywalking.
With London you get the whole of the UK and mainland Europe no more than three hours away even if you hate the city itself.
London is also a series of villages, so you can chose your environment - it doesn't have to be full-on. Where I live it's 20 minutes to the city centre or deep countryside, plus there's a full town centre in its own right on my doorstep within a five-minute walk.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 15, 2012, 02:16:35 PM
Dublin.
London is a great city, but expensive as hell. Are you ready for that?
I wouldn't put off moving to a place because you have been there--you could travel through Europe (and London) easily from Dublin.
Dublin hasn't been cheaper than London since the introduction of the Euro. No Dubliners can afford to live in Dublin any more.
Another thought, You can fly to Singapore from London for £400 return, I'd do that for a week to prove to yourself you made the right choice :D
The ex-pat Brits in Singapore are offensive, and the locals won't mix with you.
Quote from: Brazen on August 16, 2012, 09:00:09 AMNo Dubliners can afford to live in Dublin any more.
So that's why they keep touring Europe all the time.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F991.com%2FnewGallery%2FThe-Dubliners-The-Patriot-Game-490358.jpg&hash=6c75e1a3c737ca05fde58f145dc0882fb96257b1)
London. Easier access to France.
London. Singapore has a hellishly humid climate and the place, although very clean and orderly is basically a sterile, gilded cage. Fun to visit once but that's it.
Quote from: Legbiter on August 16, 2012, 04:51:22 PM
London. Singapore has a hellishly humid climate and the place, although very clean and orderly is basically a sterile, gilded cage. Fun to visit once but that's it.
Yeah it sounds like the anti-Iceland, also what with your volcanoes throwing shit/stone/water all over the place. :P
Actually aren't there like only 10 of you per sq.km of Iceland and I'd guess there's probably 10-50,000 singagporeans per km ? *
*wild guesses here.
edit:
not too bad as guesses go I was about right in terms or relative density between the two, according to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density)
Singaporean population density per sq.km is 7,363 and Icelands just 3, so a ratio of
2450 to one.
Quote from: mongers on August 16, 2012, 05:06:02 PM
Yeah it sounds like the anti-Iceland, also what with your volcanoes throwing shit/stone/water all over the place. :P
Eh, it keeps things fresh, having to name a newly created mountain every now and again. ;)
Quote from: Legbiter on August 16, 2012, 06:09:43 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 16, 2012, 05:06:02 PM
Yeah it sounds like the anti-Iceland, also what with your volcanoes throwing shit/stone/water all over the place. :P
Eh, it keeps things fresh, having to name a newly created mountain every now and again. ;)
:)
Plus you're just about the only place on earth where the old invest in stuff they're no longer making doesn't ring true. :)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 15, 2012, 02:05:16 PM
So my wife has transferred departments within the Evil Empire, and that makes it likely that we will be moving some time in the next few years to one of the two. My own skill set is fungible, so I have no worries about being able to find work. I really like the idea of living in either place for a while. Can't decide.
A distant third possibility is Dublin. Which I really like better but I've been there many times now.
London: fog & rain
Singapore: sun&earthquakes.
I think I'd go with Singapore.