QuoteIn Virtual Play, Sex Harassment Is All Too Real
By AMY O'LEARY
Published: August 1, 2012
The New York Times
When Miranda Pakozdi entered the Cross Assault video game tournament this year, she knew she had a slim chance of winning the $25,000 prize. But she was ready to compete, and promised fans watching online that she would train just as hard as, if not harder than, anyone else.
Over six days of competition, though, her team's coach, Aris Bakhtanians, interrogated her on camera about her bra size, said "take off your shirt" and focused the team's webcam on her chest, feet and legs. He leaned in over her shoulder and smelled her.
Ms. Pakozdi, 25, an experienced gamer, has said she always expects a certain amount of trash talk. But as the only woman on the team, this was too much, especially from her coach, she said. It was after she overheard Mr. Bakhtanians defending sexual harassment as part of "the fighting game community" that she forfeited the game.
Sexism, racism, homophobia and general name-calling are longstanding facts of life in certain corners of online video games. But the Cross Assault episode was the first of a series this year that have exposed the severity of the harassment that many women experience in virtual gaming communities.
And a backlash — on Twitter, in videos, on blogs and even in an online comic strip — has moved the issue beyond endless debate among gaming insiders to more public calls for change.
Executives in the $25 billion-a-year industry are taking note. One game designer's online call for civility prompted a meeting with Microsoft executives about how to better police Xbox Live. In February, shortly after the Cross Assault tournament, LevelUp, an Internet broadcaster of gaming events, barred two commentators who made light of sexual harassment on camera and issued a formal apology, including statements from the commentators.
Even so, Tom Cannon, co-founder of the largest fighting game tournament, EVO, pulled his company's sponsorship of the weekly LevelUp series, saying that "we cannot continue to let ignorant, hateful speech slide."
"The nasty undercurrent in the scene isn't a joke or a meme," he said. "It's something we need to fix."
Mr. Bakhtanians, whose actions during the Cross Assault tournament were captured on video, later issued a statement in which he apologized if he had offended anyone. He also blamed "my own inability in the heat of the moment to defend myself and the community I have loved for over 15 years."
But the issues raised by the Cross Assault episode gained more attention with Anita Sarkeesian's campaign in May to raise $6,000 on Kickstarter to document how women are portrayed in video games. Her YouTube and Facebook pages were instantly flooded with hate-filled comments. People tried to hack her online accounts. She received violent personal threats.
Ms. Sarkeesian responded by documenting the harassment, posting online the doctored, pornographic images of herself that her detractors had created. Supporters of her efforts, aghast, donated more than $150,000, further angering her critics. A man from Ontario created an Internet game where players could "punch" her, layering bruises and cuts on her image until the screen turns red.
"The gaming industry is actually in the process of changing," Ms. Sarkeesian said. "That's a really positive thing, but I think there is a small group of male gamers who feel like gaming belongs to them, and are really terrified of that change happening."
When Sam Killermann, a gamer in Austin, Tex., saw the reaction to Ms. Sarkeesian's project, something "broke through," he said. A few weeks ago, he began a campaign for "Gamers Against Bigotry," asking people to sign a pledge supporting more positive behavior. The site received 1,500 pledges before it was hacked, erasing its list of names.
Like Ms. Sarkeesian, many women gamers are documenting their experiences on blogs like "Fat, Ugly or Slutty" (whose name comes from the typical insults women receive while playing against others online). It cheekily catalogs the slurs, threats and come-ons women receive while playing games like Resident Evil or Gears of War 3.
The blog publishes screenshots and voice recordings that serve as a kind of universal citation in each new controversy, called upon to settle debates or explode myths. For instance, many of the site's recordings feature deep voices captured from the chat features of online games, debunking the widely held belief that bad behavior begins and ends with 13-year-old boys.
Jessica Hammer, a longtime player of video games and a researcher at Columbia University, said the percentage of women playing such games online ranges from 12 percent to close to half, depending on the game type. Industry statistics from the Entertainment Software Association say 47 percent of game players are women, but that number is frequently viewed as so all-encompassing as to be meaningless, bundling Solitaire alongside Diablo III.
Women report greater levels of harassment in more competitive games involving strangers. Some abandon anonymous play for safer communities or "clans" where good behavior is the norm.
In other game communities, however, sexual threats, taunts and come-ons are common, as is criticism that women's presence is "distracting" or that they are simply trying to seek attention. Some have been offered money or virtual "gold" for online sex. Some have been stalked online and in person.
Stephen Toulouse, who was the head of enforcement for Xbox Live from 2007 until February, policed the most egregious behavior on the network, owned by Microsoft. And women were the most frequent target of harassment, he said. In that role, Mr. Toulouse experienced the wrath of angry gamers firsthand, who figured out where he lived, then called the police with false reports about trouble at his house (more than once, SWAT teams were sent).
If players were reported for bad behavior, they could be disciplined by being muted on voice chat or barred temporarily. At least once a day, Mr. Toulouse said, the company blocked a specific console's serial number from ever accessing the network again.
But policing the two or three million players who are active on Xbox Live at any given time is hard. Just as on the broader Internet, there are people who delight in piquing anger or frustration in others, or "trolling." For trolls, offensive language — sexist, racist, homophobic comments — are interchangeable weapons that vary with the target.
"They treat the Internet like a vast game," where offending others scores points, Mr. Toulouse said. But the standard advice to ignore the taunts ("don't feed the trolls") is now, in the wake of Ms. Sarkeesian's treatment, being accompanied by discussions about "how to kill a troll." And many people are calling for the gaming industry to do more.
James Portnow, a game designer who has worked on titles including Call of Duty and Farmville, wrote an episode about harassment for his animated Web series "Extra Credits." In it, the narrator says: "Right now, it's like we gave the school bully access to the intercom system and told him that everyone would hear whatever he had to say. It's time we take away that megaphone."
At the end of the video, viewers were encouraged to e-mail Microsoft's Xbox Live's team, asking for changes to communication tools and improvements to reporting systems.
After hearing from gamers, Microsoft called Mr. Portnow and invited him to headquarters. He met with a team of executives, including a vice president, for four hours, and they discussed how Microsoft was developing better algorithms for things like automatically muting repeat offenders. Microsoft confirmed it was working toward improvements to its community tools.
"For the longest time, people have seen games as a children's pastime, and we as an industry have stood behind this idea," said Mr. Portnow, who will be speaking on a gaming convention panel later this month called "Ending Harassment in Gaming."
"But that's not true any longer," he added. "We are a real mass medium, and we have a real effect on the culture. We have to take a step beyond this idea that nothing we could possibly do could be negative, or hurt people."
Are women more abused than men in MP games? i know they're more sexually harrased, but you can't step foot into a MP game without some little teenie bopper going into a epileptic fit of curses and insults every time he dies.
What kind of sick stuff was going on in that guy's house?
I'm still not sure why such tournaments exist. WTF wants to watch other people play video games?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 03, 2012, 07:04:12 AM
I'm still not sure why such tournaments exist. WTF wants to watch other people play video games?
WTF wants to watch other people playing basketball, or football, or baseball, or boxing ...
Quote from: The Brain on August 03, 2012, 05:55:06 AM
What kind of sick stuff was going on in that guy's house?
He really knows how to party.
This strikes me as a little different from "online community" stuff as this occured in person not just trash talking online.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 03, 2012, 07:40:24 AM
WTF wants to watch other people playing basketball, or football, or baseball, or boxing ...
Lots of people. You may notice the Olympic thread we have going on this board.
Quote from: Valmy on August 03, 2012, 08:02:36 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 03, 2012, 07:40:24 AM
WTF wants to watch other people playing basketball, or football, or baseball, or boxing ...
Lots of people. You may notice the Olympic thread we have going on this board.
Exactly. So why is it that hard to believe someone might want to watch, for example, a match between the two best Counterstrike clans in the world?
Quote from: Iormlund on August 03, 2012, 08:06:14 AM
Exactly. So why is it that hard to believe someone might want to watch, for example, a match between the two best Counterstrike clans in the world?
Video game tourneys are videotaped to prevent hacking/cheats. Not all platforms have online monitoring and recording/retention capabilities.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 03, 2012, 08:06:14 AM
Exactly. So why is it that hard to believe someone might want to watch, for example, a match between the two best Counterstrike clans in the world?
Well I can see getting a feed to the action onscreen but actually watching them sit there and press the controller does strike me as a little odd...
or maybe not maybe their thumbs move with astonishing dexterity.
Back when I followed CPL and WSG championships they were played over LAN. The matches were available for watching on the Net from a series of proxies. In the case of CS, an spectator could choose from a variety of views (map overview, first-person with or without minimaps, etc).
Quote from: Iormlund on August 03, 2012, 08:30:07 AM
Back when I followed CPL and WSG championships they were played over LAN. The matches were available for watching on the Net from a series of proxies. In the case of CS, an spectator could choose from a variety of views (map overview, first-person with or without minimaps, etc).
NERD!
Quote from: Valmy on August 03, 2012, 08:11:30 AM
or maybe not maybe their thumbs move with astonishing dexterity.
:D
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 03, 2012, 08:32:00 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 03, 2012, 08:30:07 AM
Back when I followed CPL and WSG championships they were played over LAN. The matches were available for watching on the Net from a series of proxies. In the case of CS, an spectator could choose from a variety of views (map overview, first-person with or without minimaps, etc).
NERD!
Dude, I work with robots. :P
So what is her bra size?
Quote
Over six days of competition, though, her team’s coach, Aris Bakhtanians, interrogated her on camera about her bra size, said “take off your shirt” and focused the team’s webcam on her chest, feet and legs. He leaned in over her shoulder and smelled her.
Marti?
Here are the individuals in question. I'd take no shit from that tub of lard.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FTechnology%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2012%2F3%2F6%2F1331035649631%2FMiranda-and-Aris-007.jpg&hash=0492ee1bd3ce0b397fe7d7ccded5b99d388bf402)
Some women have nice feet. One can recognize this without being a fetishist.
Anyway, this happened back in February. Maybe the NYT could be a little more timely with its "news"?
Gaming is one of the few redoubts remaining for maleness, so that's not really that surprising.
The last thing that would jump to mind seeing that guy is 'coach'. Reminds me of an orthodox monk, actually.
The chick was hanging out with MMO types; of course they bare going to act like assholes because that's what MMO types are.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 03, 2012, 10:25:38 AM
The last thing that would jump to mind seeing that guy is 'coach'. Reminds me of an orthodox monk, actually.
That's one thing I've always found a bit unappealing around certain types of hardcore gamers: Overdoing it on facial hair.
Quote from: grumbler on August 03, 2012, 10:26:07 AM
The chick was hanging out with MMO types; of course they bare going to act like assholes because that's what MMO types are.
Oh, was this some kind of MMO thing? If so the case is closed and grumbler wins the thread.
So, did she show the goods?
BTW, the online gaming community is full of filth and annoying kids, that is why I try to play with a clan of grown ups (30UP) and if I play alone I mute everyone.
Quote from: Neil on August 03, 2012, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on August 03, 2012, 10:25:38 AM
The last thing that would jump to mind seeing that guy is 'coach'. Reminds me of an orthodox monk, actually.
That's one thing I've always found a bit unappealing around certain types of hardcore gamers: Overdoing it on facial hair.
No time to shave!
Playing MP is like going to a frat house and yelling "hey you guys wanna come over to my place for a while."
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2012, 10:20:37 AM
Here are the individuals in question. I'd take no shit from that tub of lard.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FTechnology%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2012%2F3%2F6%2F1331035649631%2FMiranda-and-Aris-007.jpg&hash=0492ee1bd3ce0b397fe7d7ccded5b99d388bf402)
This Aris guy sounds (and looks) like a complete sack of shit.
From an interview he did when this thing sparked off:
QuoteTensions were immediately raised over Rea's suggestion the fighting game community, once insular and limited but now steadily growing year-over-year, was potentially alienating outsiders from becoming fans of fighting games or the competitive scene because of inappropriate sexual language. Bakhtanians took issue with Rea's criticism.
Here's a lengthy transcript of their exchange:
Rea: You know what it is, to be honest with you? We're getting older. Do you really want to keep hanging around with a bunch of [guys in their] early 20s who don't know how to treat one another with respect? That's what it is.
Bakhtanians: Alright, man. The thing is...if you don't like the scene, how it is right now, it just seems like you're trying to create...turn it into something that it's not, and it's never going to be. You know what I mean?
Rea: That's really unfortunate [inaudible]...the way it is right now, they want to enjoy fighting games, but they're so incredibly turned off by [the language].
Bakhtanians: This doesn't involve me, Jared, I don't know if you can hear me--this is Aris. This doesn't really involve me, but if you don't like onions, you get your sandwich without onions, man. I mean, this is the fighting game community.
Rea: Can I get my Street Fighter without sexual harassment?
Bakhtanians: You can't. You can't because they're one and the same thing. This is a community that's, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it's not the fighting game community--it's StarCraft. There's nothing wrong with StarCraft if you enjoy it, and there's nothing wrong with anything about eSports, but why would you want just one flavor of ice cream, you know? There's eSports for people who like eSports, and there's fighting games for people who like spicy food and like to have fun. There's no reason to turn them into the same thing, you know?
You can't go to the NBA and say "hey, I like basketball, but I don't want them to play with a basketball, I want them to play with a football." It just doesn't...it doesn't make sense to have that attitude, you know? These things are established for years. That would be like someone from the fighting game community going over to StarCraft and trying to say "hey, StarCraft, you guys are too soft, let's start making sexual harassment jokes to each other on StarCraft." That's not cool, people wouldn't like that. StarCraft isn't like that. People would get defensive, and that's what you're trying to do the fighting game community, and it's not right. It's ethically wrong.
I know that you're thinking "what do you know about ethics? You say racial stuff and sexist stuff." But those are jokes and if you were really a member of the fighting game community, you would know that. You would know that these are jokes.
Rea: So, ensuring that we alienate any and all female viewers...that's the ethical thing to do?
Bakhtanians: Well, you know, there are layers here, if you think about this. There are layers of ethics. There are people who are racist and commit hate crimes, right? And then there are people who are racist but they have tons of friends of all colors and they have deep love for those friends. Do you think those people are one and the same? Absolutely not.
http://www.giantbomb.com/news/when-passions-flare-lines-are-crossed-updated/4006/
Quote from: Neil on August 03, 2012, 10:28:24 AM
Quote from: grumbler on August 03, 2012, 10:26:07 AM
The chick was hanging out with MMO types; of course they bare going to act like assholes because that's what MMO types are.
Oh, was this some kind of MMO thing? If so the case is closed and grumbler wins the thread.
No, they were fighting games.
QuoteBakhtanians: You can't. You can't because they're one and the same thing. This is a community that's, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it's not the fighting game community
:lol: Holy shit.
What's with all the weird Armenian names.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2012, 01:56:11 PM
What's with all the weird Armenian names.
His name must attract women. I'm sure someone of his moral caliber is swimming in female companionship.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2012, 01:56:11 PM
What's with all the weird Armenian names.
Well, I believe the guy is from around LA.
Quote from: Valmy on August 03, 2012, 01:55:32 PM
QuoteBakhtanians: You can't. You can't because they're one and the same thing. This is a community that's, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it's not the fighting game community
:lol: Holy shit.
I know, loved that.
Quote from: Valmy on August 03, 2012, 01:55:32 PM
QuoteBakhtanians: You can't. You can't because they're one and the same thing. This is a community that's, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it's not the fighting game community
:lol: Holy shit.
He is most eloquent. I can, you know, see his point.
I know a bunch of dudes in the fighting game community (as happens when you work in video games), and as far as I know sexual harassment is not central to how the view the community.
AFAI can see, the main thing about the fighting game community is liking fighting games and spending a whole lot of time playing them.
This guy coulda had a job working for the 1960s Southeast Conference explaining why, if you let "blacks" play college football, it won't be college football any more.
(Note that Michigan had a "black" player on its 1890 roster -and a medical student at that - while Alabama didn't have one until 1971)
Quote from: grumbler on August 03, 2012, 03:31:34 PM
This guy coulda had a job working for the 1960s Southeast Conference explaining why, if you let "blacks" play college football, it won't be college football any more.
(Note that Michigan had a "black" player on its 1890 roster -and a medical student at that - while Alabama didn't have one until 1971)
How did bowl games and the like work? Or were those not really nation-wide until televised football?
Quote from: Neil on August 03, 2012, 04:25:16 PM
How did bowl games and the like work? Or were those not really nation-wide until televised football?
Well, for a long time there was just the Rose Bowl, and it didn't invite any segregated teams. In 1935, three bowls were established in states where it was illegal for "the race to mix" on the same football team, and teams invited to the Sugar, Orange, or Sun bowls had to leave their "black" players at home, if they had any.
Interestingly, one of the reasons why the Big Ten and Pac Ten have their deal for the Rose Bowl is that, when the deal was made, they were the only two conferences that banned discrimination in the game. The Tournament of Roses committee didn't want to deal with the issue of teams demanding that the Pac Ten team bench all its non-white players before the visiting team would agree to play.
And the reason why that is especially interesting is that the conferences made that rule after a huge brouhaha at Michigan in 1934, when the Michigan AD agreed to bench Michigan's leading scorer, Willis Ward. There was a huge storm of protest from the students and faculty, but the contract had been signed. Ward's roommate announced that he wouldn't play if Ward didn't play, but rescinded the decision after Ward convinced him that the best revenge would be to beat Georgia Tech, and that the team needed Ward's roommate to do it. Michigan did, indeed, win the game, led by Ward's roommate. That roommate was Gerald R. Ford.
Quote from: grumbler on August 04, 2012, 11:04:43 AM
And the reason why that is especially interesting is that the conferences made that rule after a huge brouhaha at Michigan in 1934, when the Michigan AD agreed to bench Michigan's leading scorer, Willis Ward. There was a huge storm of protest from the students and faculty, but the contract had been signed. Ward's roommate announced that he wouldn't play if Ward didn't play, but rescinded the decision after Ward convinced him that the best revenge would be to beat Georgia Tech, and that the team needed Ward's roommate to do it. Michigan did, indeed, win the game, led by Ward's roommate. That roommate was Gerald R. Ford.
One of the best sports stories ever.
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2012, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2012, 02:08:27 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 03, 2012, 02:07:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 03, 2012, 01:56:11 PM
What's with all the weird Armenian names.
Well, I believe the guy is from around LA.
:mellow:
Armenians aren't uncommon around Los Angeles?
Probably more common there than in Armenia, thanks to the Turks.
Quote from: grumbler
And the reason why that is especially interesting is that the conferences made that rule after a huge brouhaha at Michigan in 1934, when the Michigan AD agreed to bench Michigan's leading scorer, Willis Ward. There was a huge storm of protest from the students and faculty, but the contract had been signed. Ward's roommate announced that he wouldn't play if Ward didn't play, but rescinded the decision after Ward convinced him that the best revenge would be to beat Georgia Tech, and that the team needed Ward's roommate to do it. Michigan did, indeed, win the game, led by Ward's roommate. That roommate was Gerald R. Ford.
I'm sure Raz will be along shortly to explain to us how, despite this story, Ford was clearly a rascist, because he was a Republican.
Why did you bring me in to this? :huh:
Quote from: dps on August 04, 2012, 12:47:41 PM
I'm sure Raz will be along shortly to explain to us how, despite this story, Ford was clearly a rascist, because he was a Republican.
I don't think you understand how this partisan stuff works dps. You can say nice things about a member of the other party once they are out of politics. Especially if they are dead.
Even Reagan?
The Republicans didn't become racist until recently, Ford is clear.
Reagan too probably. He was a senile traitor, but not a racist, I don't think.
I have never come across a chick that will play Halo in her underwear. Or a 'Wii Fit' girl(yes, I know that was clever marketing).
All I've seen is Sims depravity. Like not allowing Sims to have basic toilet facilities. Or getting them set of fire.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 04, 2012, 01:31:08 PM
Even Reagan?
Not really. The current crop of Republicans have too much of a cult around him, they can feed off anything positive said about Reagan.
Quote from: Valmy on August 04, 2012, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: dps on August 04, 2012, 12:47:41 PM
I'm sure Raz will be along shortly to explain to us how, despite this story, Ford was clearly a rascist, because he was a Republican.
I don't think you understand how this partisan stuff works dps. You can say nice things about a member of the other party once they are out of politics. Especially if they are dead.
Besides the South never went for Ford.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 04, 2012, 01:31:08 PM
Even Reagan?
The Republitards, Libertardians, Teabaggers and Dumbfuckistanis are too busy forgetting what he was really like, and are more than happy attributing things to him that even he would say "WTF, people".
The legacy of Ronald Reagan has become a Che Guevara T-shirt/coffee mug combo for only $11.99.
Quote from: sbr on August 04, 2012, 01:31:53 PM
The Republicans didn't become racist until recently, Ford is clear.
Reagan too probably. He was a senile traitor, but not a racist, I don't think.
Reagan wasn't a racist, but he did use racists. On his first presidential run his campaign manager went off to work for one of those scientific racism think tanks. Pioneer fund or something.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 04, 2012, 02:10:51 PM
Besides the South never went for Ford.
http://www.historicjoplin.org/?tag=lynching-in-springfield-missouri (http://www.historicjoplin.org/?tag=lynching-in-springfield-missouri)
http://thegrio.com/2010/11/09/missouri-corrects-record-on-1923-college-town-lynching/ (http://thegrio.com/2010/11/09/missouri-corrects-record-on-1923-college-town-lynching/)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Gunn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Gunn)
Yeah, there as lynching all over the Midwest. A famous one in Duluth I think. Besides, that's nothing. Up until the 1970's you could legally kill Mormons in Missouri.
Raz, please stop shitting yourself.
Oh, and Eddie, if I lived back in the late 1960's and 1970's, there would be a good chance I'd vote Republican. I vote for the party of law and order. I don't like mobs, and by the late '60's the Dems had completely gone off the rails.
Quote from: Neil on August 03, 2012, 04:25:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on August 03, 2012, 03:31:34 PM
This guy coulda had a job working for the 1960s Southeast Conference explaining why, if you let "blacks" play college football, it won't be college football any more.
(Note that Michigan had a "black" player on its 1890 roster -and a medical student at that - while Alabama didn't have one until 1971)
How did bowl games and the like work? Or were those not really nation-wide until televised football?
The University at Buffalo's story about running into the issue: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=buffalo58
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 04, 2012, 03:08:13 PM
Raz, please stop shitting yourself.
Oh, like you wouldn't go for killing Mormons in the 1960's.
Apparently Missouri didn't reverse the "extermination order". Also for a short period forcible rape was legal due to a oversight in the legislature. Not many people knew about it, they fixed it pretty quick. That's what happens when you have a part time legislature.
I like the typical Languish dichotomy here, about how the guy is a misogynist, bigoted jerk regarding sexually demeaning comments, while over in the Olympics thread, female athletes are being rated on HOTTness and "doable-ness". :P
Speaking of which, I'd like to console Maria Sharapova. :perv:
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 04, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
I like the typical Languish dichotomy here, about how the guy is a misogynist, bigoted jerk regarding sexually demeaning comments, while over in the Olympics thread, female athletes are being rated on HOTTness and "doable-ness". :P
There is no contradiction. A positive comment not directed at the object is not demeaning. If two tubby Armenian gamer nerds had been talking to each other about the hottness of gamer chick that wouldn't have been demeaning either.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on August 04, 2012, 03:44:58 PM
The University at Buffalo's story about running into the issue: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=buffalo58
I'd heard that story but couldn't remember the school. Thanks for posting that, it's a great story.
Quote from: grumbler on August 04, 2012, 11:04:43 AM
Quote from: Neil on August 03, 2012, 04:25:16 PM
How did bowl games and the like work? Or were those not really nation-wide until televised football?
Well, for a long time there was just the Rose Bowl, and it didn't invite any segregated teams. In 1935, three bowls were established in states where it was illegal for "the race to mix" on the same football team, and teams invited to the Sugar, Orange, or Sun bowls had to leave their "black" players at home, if they had any.
Interestingly, one of the reasons why the Big Ten and Pac Ten have their deal for the Rose Bowl is that, when the deal was made, they were the only two conferences that banned discrimination in the game. The Tournament of Roses committee didn't want to deal with the issue of teams demanding that the Pac Ten team bench all its non-white players before the visiting team would agree to play.
And the reason why that is especially interesting is that the conferences made that rule after a huge brouhaha at Michigan in 1934, when the Michigan AD agreed to bench Michigan's leading scorer, Willis Ward. There was a huge storm of protest from the students and faculty, but the contract had been signed. Ward's roommate announced that he wouldn't play if Ward didn't play, but rescinded the decision after Ward convinced him that the best revenge would be to beat Georgia Tech, and that the team needed Ward's roommate to do it. Michigan did, indeed, win the game, led by Ward's roommate. That roommate was Gerald R. Ford.
Cool story.
It is a cool story, but Ford played center. How much of a difference would his absence have made?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 04, 2012, 10:17:09 PM
It is a cool story, but Ford played center. How much of a difference would his absence have made?
How bad was his backup?
Well it is Michigan.
Quote from: Iormlund on August 03, 2012, 07:40:24 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 03, 2012, 07:04:12 AM
I'm still not sure why such tournaments exist. WTF wants to watch other people play video games?
WTF wants to watch other people playing basketball, or football, or baseball, or boxing ...
Word. I never understood the point of watching other people having fun.
It must be some form of masochism.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 04, 2012, 10:17:09 PM
It is a cool story, but Ford played center. How much of a difference would his absence have made?
A strong offensive line is the most important part of football, so pretty important.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 04, 2012, 10:17:09 PM
It is a cool story, but Ford played center. How much of a difference would his absence have made?
He was
the team's only All-American, was team MVP, and (at linebacker, his other position) the team's leading tackler (or maybe just the leading tackler to that point in the season; I can't find any data on who was the leading tackler for the season).
Of course, he was the leading tackler for a 1-7 team, so he didn't have to be
all that good to be the leading tackler!
On the other hand, Ford was on two national championship teams in his three years of eligibility, so he was no slouch.
Edit: he wasn't an All-American, he was an "All Star" on the team that played the pro champion Chicago Bears. My bad.
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 04, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
I like the typical Languish dichotomy here, about how the guy is a misogynist, bigoted jerk regarding sexually demeaning comments, while over in the Olympics thread, female athletes are being rated on HOTTness and "doable-ness". :P
Wait saying somebody is hot or doable is insulting? Then I guess most women are bigoted misandrists as well. There is no difference, it seems, between sexual harrassment and finding people attractive.
Quote from: Valmy on August 05, 2012, 11:48:50 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on August 04, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
I like the typical Languish dichotomy here, about how the guy is a misogynist, bigoted jerk regarding sexually demeaning comments, while over in the Olympics thread, female athletes are being rated on HOTTness and "doable-ness". :P
Wait saying somebody is hot or doable is insulting? Then I guess most women are bigoted misandrists as well. There is no difference, it seems, between sexual harrassment and finding people attractive.
If we're posting about someone who doesn't themselves post here, I don't think anything we post could be considered harrassment, sexual or otherwise.
It might be sexist, racist, etc., but it wouldn't be harrassment.