That's funny :)
Text (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/157310)
It must be burning a hole in him. :lol:
Jewish Roots? Kunta Goldschmitt?
Wait wait...so somewhere on this planet there exists a self-loathing Jew?
Heh.
Almost with the same timing, the jewish organization in hungary, as part of an internal power struggle, unleashed (or try to unleash or whatever) the police on one of their leaders because he participated in religious rituals he wasnt supposed, because, as it turned out (omg the suspense!) his FATHER was jewish, not his mother.
"I think that what counts is not to know who is a pure race Hungarian, the important thing is the way one behaves as a Hungarian," he said in an interview."
So...what do pure race Hungarians act like?
Quote from: Tamas on June 28, 2012, 10:46:51 AM
Heh.
Almost with the same timing, the jewish organization in hungary, as part of an internal power struggle, unleashed (or try to unleash or whatever) the police on one of their leaders because he participated in religious rituals he wasnt supposed, because, as it turned out (omg the suspense!) his FATHER was jewish, not his mother.
Judaism is generally matrilinial. Though not all Jews follow this practice.
I dunno what rituals are involved - I presume the issue is whether the guy is Jewish or not. Unlike Nazis, membership in the tribe isn't determined merely by having a percentage ancestry - in most cases, either your mother has to be Jewish, or you have to convert.
He should be very proud.
Quote from: Malthus on June 28, 2012, 12:43:29 PM
Quote from: Tamas on June 28, 2012, 10:46:51 AM
Heh.
Almost with the same timing, the jewish organization in hungary, as part of an internal power struggle, unleashed (or try to unleash or whatever) the police on one of their leaders because he participated in religious rituals he wasnt supposed, because, as it turned out (omg the suspense!) his FATHER was jewish, not his mother.
Judaism is generally matrilinial. Though not all Jews follow this practice.
I dunno what rituals are involved - I presume the issue is whether the guy is Jewish or not. Unlike Nazis, membership in the tribe isn't determined merely by having a percentage ancestry - in most cases, either your mother has to be Jewish, or you have to convert.
yes but it looks stupid, because being jew is officially a religion, not a race. Except in the attack of the nazis, of course.
Quote from: Tamas on June 28, 2012, 01:45:42 PM
yes but it looks stupid, because being jew is officially a religion, not a race. Except in the attack of the nazis, of course.
I dunno who sets what Judaism is "officially". To Jews, Judaism is more a tribal identity - neither simply a religion nor a race. For example, being an atheist doesn't make you 'not Jewish', so it isn't simply a religion; and you can convert TO Judaism, so it isn't racial. OTOH if you convert to another religion that is incompatible with Judaism you are no longer Jewish.
Think of it more like a big extented family. In many nations, you get your family identity patrilinially (that is, you have the name of your father). In Judaism, you get your Jewish identity matrilinially.
You can't think of Judaism like some species of Protestantism, or like being Black. It may be "officially a religion", and Nazi types may think it is a "race" (and so worry about having some Jewish grandparents or whatever), but it is really neither the one nor the other. It is best described as a tribal identity.
Quote from: Malthus on June 28, 2012, 01:53:25 PM
I dunno who sets what Judaism is "officially".
:rolleyes:
Don't be coy. We all know all the official rules are released by the Elders of Zion in their annual secret protocols report.
Seriously though there is no discussion of this sort of thing in the Talmud?
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2012, 02:04:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 28, 2012, 01:53:25 PM
I dunno who sets what Judaism is "officially".
:rolleyes:
Don't be coy. We all know all the official rules are released by the Elders of Zion in their annual secret protocols report.
Seriously though there is no discussion of this sort of thing in the Talmud?
What, the protocols? They aren't in the Talmud - they are secret. :D
But yeah, there is plenty of discussion as to what constitutes a "Jew", and the rules are as I've laid out - you can be one by birth (most say, matrilinially, though for Reform it ain't necessarily so), or by conversion. The Rules(tm) state that a convert is just as Jewish as one born, and it is a serious breach of manners to treat one otherwise - but converting to Judaism is NOT encouraged.
Jews can't even agree on who is a Jew. How is anyone else suppose to?
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2012, 02:13:37 PM
Jews can't even agree on who is a Jew. How is anyone else suppose to?
I consider only those who can prove blood descent from the Khazar Khan Bulan Sabriel to be true Jews.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2012, 02:13:37 PM
Jews can't even agree on who is a Jew. How is anyone else suppose to?
I'll tell you a secret - Jews don't agree on just about anything. ;) Get two Jews together and they have three opinions, as the saying goes.
However, there is some commonality on the range of opinions. Jews more or less all agree that a non-religious Jew is still a Jew, and that Judaism is not a "race". Judaism is better described as a "tribe" or a "nation" (in the pre-modern sense).
This comes straight from the Torah. In Genesis 12, God promises to make of Abraham "a great nation". Jews consider themselves the descendants referred to.
Quote12 Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2012, 02:04:19 PM
Seriously though there is no discussion of this sort of thing in the Talmud?
I don't think the ancient Jews envision a society where this question would arise. I'm pretty sure mixed marriage between a Jew and a non Jew were not encouraged at the time these texts were written.
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2012, 04:42:25 PM
I don't think the ancient Jews envision a society where this question would arise. I'm pretty sure mixed marriage between a Jew and a non Jew were not encouraged at the time these texts were written.
Pretty sure by the time of the middle Roman Empire, when the Talmud first started being written down, the diaspora was well under way and this was a pretty important question.
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2012, 04:49:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2012, 04:42:25 PM
I don't think the ancient Jews envision a society where this question would arise. I'm pretty sure mixed marriage between a Jew and a non Jew were not encouraged at the time these texts were written.
Pretty sure by the time of the middle Roman Empire, when the Talmud first started being written down, the diaspora was well under way and this was a pretty important question.
Yeah. It was obviously an important question since large numbers of Jews intermarried into European population. I'm also to understand that at one time Judaism was more evangelical and converted people.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2012, 10:56:53 PM
Yeah. It was obviously an important question since large numbers of Jews intermarried into European population. I'm also to understand that at one time Judaism was more evangelical and converted people.
The actual story behind that would be interesting but I remember seeing a letter from a Bishop serving Frankish communities in the late Roman period complaining the local Germans were more convinced by the local...um...whatever the fifth century version of a Rabbi would be...and were converting Judaism instead and he was wondering what to do about it. Also there was some prophesy related to the Messiah that there would never be another Jewish King or something once the Messiah had come. So to prove Jesus was not the Messiah they worked hard to find any King who would convert and that is supposedly how the Khazars came to be converted. Interesting stuff but it taking place during the Dark Ages and all there is not a ton of solid evidence.
Quote from: Malthus on June 28, 2012, 01:53:25 PM
I dunno who sets what Judaism is "officially". To Jews, Judaism is more a tribal identity - neither simply a religion nor a race. For example, being an atheist doesn't make you 'not Jewish', so it isn't simply a religion; and you can convert TO Judaism, so it isn't racial. OTOH if you convert to another religion that is incompatible with Judaism you are no longer Jewish.
Which religions are compatible with Judaism?
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2012, 04:49:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 28, 2012, 04:42:25 PM
I don't think the ancient Jews envision a society where this question would arise. I'm pretty sure mixed marriage between a Jew and a non Jew were not encouraged at the time these texts were written.
Pretty sure by the time of the middle Roman Empire, when the Talmud first started being written down, the diaspora was well under way and this was a pretty important question.
I thought it was way older than that?
Quote from: Solmyr on June 29, 2012, 01:40:04 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 28, 2012, 01:53:25 PM
I dunno who sets what Judaism is "officially". To Jews, Judaism is more a tribal identity - neither simply a religion nor a race. For example, being an atheist doesn't make you 'not Jewish', so it isn't simply a religion; and you can convert TO Judaism, so it isn't racial. OTOH if you convert to another religion that is incompatible with Judaism you are no longer Jewish.
Which religions are compatible with Judaism?
Any that don't propose competing gods. For example, it is possible to be a Jewish Buddhist (though not of certain Mahayana sects), a Jewish animist, or a Jewish Taoist (again, not of certain sects).
There are plenty of Jewish Buddhists, for example, among North American intellectual types. Though I suppose one could say that Buddhism, Taoism etc. isn't really a "religion".
Quote from: viper37 on June 29, 2012, 08:05:32 AM
I thought it was way older than that?
The traditions and the laws probably are. But the destruction of the Temple and the diaspora caused by the following wars was the primary reason writing them all down and clarifying them became important. There was no central Temple or priestly class to have authority or make rulings or be guardians of the traditions anymore. It would be like a bunch of little communities trying to use the Canadian Constitution to govern themselves but without any parliament to make alterations or a supreme court to make binding interpretations when situations arise....oh and nobody has actually written down the constitution.
There are Jewish Unitarians.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 29, 2012, 09:09:05 AM
There are Jewish Unitarians.
Once you drop the whole 'Jesus is a God' thing they tend to be more receptive. We have a few at my church.
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2012, 09:12:44 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 29, 2012, 09:09:05 AM
There are Jewish Unitarians.
Once you drop the whole 'Jesus is a God' thing they tend to be more receptive. We have a few at my church.
Well, yeah. You can be a Jew and easily accept stuff like Sufism or Buddhism, or Unitarianism, but going out and worshipping
other gods, or a man who is claimed to be a god, is simply a step beyond the pale.
The notion is that you can worship with folks who call god by another name, or who don't believe in any gods at all, but not with folks who believe in a set of gods obviously incompatible with Jewish mythology. That would be a betrayal.
Edit: the whole thing is complicated by the fact that Christians quite often do not understand the problem, since they are of the opinion that they *are* worshipping the same god as Jews - when it is obvious to Jews that the (mainstream) Christian god is very different. The primary characteristics of the Jewish god are that he is singular and not a jumped-up human.
Christians and Jews worship the same God. Up 'til Jesus Birth. ;) :P
It's just that we added 2 more and merged them with the Supreme Lord to make it easier to recruit the pagans worshipping multiple gods. ;)
Anyway, serious questions: is there a concept of "saints" in judaism, as there is in christianity (for Catholics, at least)?
Quote from: viper37 on June 29, 2012, 02:22:33 PM
Christians and Jews worship the same God. Up 'til Jesus Birth. ;) :P
It's just that we added 2 more and merged them with the Supreme Lord to make it easier to recruit the pagans worshipping multiple gods. ;)
Anyway, serious questions: is there a concept of "saints" in judaism, as there is in christianity (for Catholics, at least)?
Nope.
There are (or were) prophets, but no saints.
The distinction, from what I understand, is that prophets have a direct connection to God while they are alive, like Moses, while saints have a direct connection to god after they are dead; so in Catholicism for example they can intercede for you if you pray to them for help.
There is nothing like that in Judaism.
So once a prophet is dead, he holds no special status, other than being an historical figure. There would be no prayers adressed to Moses, no kind of near-worshipping at all to another "conduit" to God.
Thanks :)
Quote from: viper37 on June 29, 2012, 02:53:17 PM
So once a prophet is dead, he holds no special status, other than being an historical figure. There would be no prayers adressed to Moses, no kind of near-worshipping at all to another "conduit" to God.
Thanks :)
Yup. Indeed, the whole notion of an afterlife is hazy at best in Judaism.
But certainly, Jews do not pray to Moses for intercession with God.
Quote from: Malthus on June 29, 2012, 02:36:45 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 29, 2012, 02:22:33 PM
Christians and Jews worship the same God. Up 'til Jesus Birth. ;) :P
It's just that we added 2 more and merged them with the Supreme Lord to make it easier to recruit the pagans worshipping multiple gods. ;)
Anyway, serious questions: is there a concept of "saints" in judaism, as there is in christianity (for Catholics, at least)?
Nope.
There are (or were) prophets, but no saints.
The distinction, from what I understand, is that prophets have a direct connection to God while they are alive, like Moses, while saints have a direct connection to god after they are dead; so in Catholicism for example they can intercede for you if you pray to them for help.
There is nothing like that in Judaism.
That's pretty much a Catholic view of Christian saints, though. In fact, praying to saints is on of the main things that separates most Protestants from Catholics. To most Protestants, a "saint" is anyone who sets an example of living up to Christian ideals (or coming close to them).
I'm much less familiar with Orthodox attitudes on the subject, but my understanding is that generally, Orthodox Christians for the most part come closer to the Catholic conception of saints than to the Protestant one (not to suggest, given the number of Protestant sects, that there is only "one" Protestant POV here).
Quote from: dps on June 29, 2012, 04:39:44 PM
That's pretty much a Catholic view of Christian saints, though. In fact, praying to saints is on of the main things that separates most Protestants from Catholics. To most Protestants, a "saint" is anyone who sets an example of living up to Christian ideals (or coming close to them).
I'm much less familiar with Orthodox attitudes on the subject, but my understanding is that generally, Orthodox Christians for the most part come closer to the Catholic conception of saints than to the Protestant one (not to suggest, given the number of Protestant sects, that there is only "one" Protestant POV here).
I never really understood the big difference between having some living person pray for you and asking some dead person to pray for you. Or why specifically some Protestants seem to have a problem with it. I mean either way you are getting some third party to talk to God for you.
I mean the theology behind Saints is just this person is so good and so devout they are assured to be in Heaven so they have the hook up right?
I guess it is just the extent some Catholics took the power of these saints to cash in favors. Like how the excesses of the Iconodules might have been one of the motivators for the Byzantine Inconoclasts.
It kinds seems to me that the way saints work is almost like a quasi-paganism. Instead of "god of animals and lost causes", you got "saint" instead.
Popery has nothing to do with real Christianity.
Quote from: Valmy on June 29, 2012, 05:30:36 PM
Quote from: dps on June 29, 2012, 04:39:44 PM
That's pretty much a Catholic view of Christian saints, though. In fact, praying to saints is on of the main things that separates most Protestants from Catholics. To most Protestants, a "saint" is anyone who sets an example of living up to Christian ideals (or coming close to them).
I'm much less familiar with Orthodox attitudes on the subject, but my understanding is that generally, Orthodox Christians for the most part come closer to the Catholic conception of saints than to the Protestant one (not to suggest, given the number of Protestant sects, that there is only "one" Protestant POV here).
I never really understood the big difference between having some living person pray for you and asking some dead person to pray for you. Or why specifically some Protestants seem to have a problem with it. I mean either way you are getting some third party to talk to God for you.
Uhm, because Protestants are praying directly to God himself*, not asking a 3rd party to intercede for them?
*again, with the caveat that this probably isn't true for
all Protestant sects, though I can't think off-hand of a major Protestant denomination for which it wouldn't be.
Do they? How many times have you heard Protestants beseech people to pray for someone who is ill or in danger or invoke God to bless someone or something thing (God Bless America!)?