Hungarian Anti-Semitic Deputy Admits Jewish Roots

[viper37]

Seriously though there is no discussion of this sort of thing in the Talmud?

I don't think the ancient Jews envision a society where this question would arise.  I'm pretty sure mixed marriage between a Jew and a non Jew were not encouraged at the time these texts were written.

[Valmy]

I don't think the ancient Jews envision a society where this question would arise.  I'm pretty sure mixed marriage between a Jew and a non Jew were not encouraged at the time these texts were written.

Pretty sure by the time of the middle Roman Empire, when the Talmud first started being written down, the diaspora was well under way and this was a pretty important question.

[Razgovory]

I don't think the ancient Jews envision a society where this question would arise.  I'm pretty sure mixed marriage between a Jew and a non Jew were not encouraged at the time these texts were written.

Pretty sure by the time of the middle Roman Empire, when the Talmud first started being written down, the diaspora was well under way and this was a pretty important question.

Yeah.  It was obviously an important question since large numbers of Jews intermarried into European population.  I'm also to understand that at one time Judaism was more evangelical and converted people.

[Valmy]

Yeah.  It was obviously an important question since large numbers of Jews intermarried into European population.  I'm also to understand that at one time Judaism was more evangelical and converted people.

The actual story behind that would be interesting but I remember seeing a letter from a Bishop serving Frankish communities in the late Roman period complaining the local Germans were more convinced by the local...um...whatever the fifth century version of a Rabbi would be...and were converting Judaism instead and he was wondering what to do about it.  Also there was some prophesy related to the Messiah that there would never be another Jewish King or something once the Messiah had come.  So to prove Jesus was not the Messiah they worked hard to find any King who would convert and that is supposedly how the Khazars came to be converted.  Interesting stuff but it taking place during the Dark Ages and all there is not a ton of solid evidence.

[Solmyr]

I dunno who sets what Judaism is "officially". To Jews, Judaism is more a tribal identity - neither simply a religion nor a race. For example, being an atheist doesn't make you 'not Jewish', so it isn't simply a religion; and you can convert TO Judaism, so it isn't racial. OTOH if you convert to another religion that is incompatible with Judaism you are no longer Jewish.

Which religions are compatible with Judaism?

[viper37]

I don't think the ancient Jews envision a society where this question would arise.  I'm pretty sure mixed marriage between a Jew and a non Jew were not encouraged at the time these texts were written.

Pretty sure by the time of the middle Roman Empire, when the Talmud first started being written down, the diaspora was well under way and this was a pretty important question.

I thought it was way older than that?

[Malthus]

I dunno who sets what Judaism is "officially". To Jews, Judaism is more a tribal identity - neither simply a religion nor a race. For example, being an atheist doesn't make you 'not Jewish', so it isn't simply a religion; and you can convert TO Judaism, so it isn't racial. OTOH if you convert to another religion that is incompatible with Judaism you are no longer Jewish.

Which religions are compatible with Judaism?

Any that don't propose competing gods. For example, it is possible to be a Jewish Buddhist (though not of certain Mahayana sects), a Jewish animist, or a Jewish Taoist (again, not of certain sects).

There are plenty of Jewish Buddhists, for example, among North American intellectual types. Though I suppose one could say that Buddhism, Taoism etc. isn't really a "religion".

[Valmy]

I thought it was way older than that?

The traditions and the laws probably are.   But the destruction of the Temple and the diaspora caused by the following wars was the primary reason writing them all down and clarifying them became important.  There was no central Temple or priestly class to have authority or make rulings or be guardians of the traditions anymore.  It would be like a bunch of little communities trying to use the Canadian Constitution to govern themselves but without any parliament to make alterations or a supreme court to make binding interpretations when situations arise....oh and nobody has actually written down the constitution.

[Darth Wagtaros]

There are Jewish Unitarians.

[Valmy]

There are Jewish Unitarians.

Once you drop the whole 'Jesus is a God' thing they tend to be more receptive.  We have a few at my church.

[Malthus]

There are Jewish Unitarians.

Once you drop the whole 'Jesus is a God' thing they tend to be more receptive.  We have a few at my church.

Well, yeah. You can be a Jew and easily accept stuff like Sufism or Buddhism, or Unitarianism, but going out and worshipping other gods, or a man who is claimed to be a god, is simply a step beyond the pale.

The notion is that you can worship with folks who call god by another name, or who don't believe in any gods at all, but not with folks who believe in a set of gods obviously incompatible with Jewish mythology. That would be a betrayal.

Edit: the whole thing is complicated by the fact that Christians quite often do not understand the problem, since they are of the opinion that they *are* worshipping the same god as Jews - when it is obvious to Jews that the (mainstream) Christian god is very different. The primary characteristics of the Jewish god are that he is singular and not a jumped-up human.

[viper37]

Christians and Jews worship the same God.  Up 'til Jesus Birth.
It's just that we added 2 more and merged them with the Supreme Lord to make it easier to recruit the pagans worshipping multiple gods.

Anyway, serious questions: is there a concept of "saints" in judaism, as there is in christianity (for Catholics, at least)?

[Malthus]

Christians and Jews worship the same God.  Up 'til Jesus Birth.
It's just that we added 2 more and merged them with the Supreme Lord to make it easier to recruit the pagans worshipping multiple gods.

Anyway, serious questions: is there a concept of "saints" in judaism, as there is in christianity (for Catholics, at least)?

Nope.

There are (or were) prophets, but no saints.

The distinction, from what I understand, is that prophets have a direct connection to God while they are alive, like Moses, while saints have a direct connection to god after they are dead; so in Catholicism for example they can intercede for you if you pray to them for help.

There is nothing like that in Judaism.

[viper37]

So once a prophet is dead, he holds no special status, other than being an historical figure.  There would be no prayers adressed to Moses, no kind of near-worshipping at all to another "conduit" to God.
Thanks

[Malthus]

So once a prophet is dead, he holds no special status, other than being an historical figure.  There would be no prayers adressed to Moses, no kind of near-worshipping at all to another "conduit" to God.
Thanks

Yup. Indeed, the whole notion of an afterlife is hazy at best in Judaism.

But certainly, Jews do not pray to Moses for intercession with God.