I am looking at the Toyota Camry hybrid (I don't fit in the Prius) and the Honda Civic hybrid (I dont fit in the new Honda hybrid model).
The Camry is sold as having unique technology that is superior to that of Honda but I until I get into some articles I really have no idea about any of this. Do we have any resident experts?
All things being equal I am leaning toward the Camry simply because it gives more leg room. It is about $10,000 more expensive but Honda does not offer a comparable model - they stopped making Accord Hybrids a couple years ago.
Your advice is as always appreciated.
What I have generally read is that if you buy the more fuel-efficient regular model it comes very close to the fuel economy of the hybrid, with it costing a whole lot less and is a whole lot cheaper to repair down the road.
So take a look at the Camry with the 4cyl engine (and the Accord with 4cyl) and try and figure out how long it will take you before you equal the slight fuel economy savings.
They stopped making the Accord hybrid as it was almost as efficient as the regular accord. :D
Also, while I like my honda civic, it seems to me that it would be a bit tight for a tall person.
It's about Style & a Camry is better at it.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2009, 08:27:08 PM
What I have generally read is that if you buy the more fuel-efficient regular model it comes very close to the fuel economy of the hybrid, with it costing a whole lot less and is a whole lot cheaper to repair down the road.
So take a look at the Camry with the 4cyl engine (and the Accord with 4cyl) and try and figure out how long it will take you before you equal the slight fuel economy savings.
Its a good point BB. There is a government of BC program that reduces the PST by $2000 for hybrid vehicles so that helps close the gap. But you are right I have to look at the fuel economy of the traditional vehicles more closely.
Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2009, 08:39:54 PM
Also, while I like my honda civic, it seems to me that it would be a bit tight for a tall person.
Yep, plus my boys are only a few years away from being over 6' themselves so it would really be tight.
I looked up the mileage for a normal Camry and a Hybrid.
city/highway/average litres/100 km (mpg)
Normal Camry 9.0 (31) / 6.1 (46) / 7.7 (37)
Hybrid Camry 5.7 (50) / 5.7 (50) / 5.7 (50)
I thought hybrids were supposed to get better fuel consumption in the city because the would work on battery power more then fuel but apparently the Toyota hybrid engines are designed so that both the electric and gas motors are always working together rather then on kicking in and out. The result is a really smooth ride compared to the Honda offering which noticeably clunks in and out of the gas motor.
In any event, BB it looks at first blush that the fuel savings - particularly in the city where this will be used most (by my wife - I will still be taking the bus :goodboy:) makes it look that the better buy.
But I am very open to contrary opinions.
So do the math then. Take the estimated miles driven per year, figure out the differing fuel costs, then compare to the difference in price between the two models.
Edit: also make sure those are figures for the 4cyl Camry, not the 6cyl.
Good reminder. I double checked I and was comparing the 4 cylinder with the hybrid. Interestingly the Hybrid also has slightly more horsepower.
On a rough calculation we would save about $1000 bucks a year. The price difference between the two is about 4 k and the warranties go beyond that four year period so it seems like a good deal.
Get a diesel if you want fuel economy.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2009, 09:11:23 PM
Its a good point BB. There is a government of BC program that reduces the PST by $2000 for hybrid vehicles so that helps close the gap. But you are right I have to look at the fuel economy of the traditional vehicles more closely.
It also depends on whether you're mainly driving in the city or on the highway. Hybrids can dramatically improve the efficiency of the city driving, because they overcome a lot of the inefficiencies from the stop-and-go driving. On the highway, however, hybrids over little improvement, given the same level of performance.
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 04, 2009, 12:13:57 AM
Get a diesel if you want fuel economy.
I'd get a hybrid for the city, and diesel for the highway, if fuel economy were the primary concern.
Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2009, 12:26:13 AM
It also depends on whether you're mainly driving in the city or on the highway. Hybrids can dramatically improve the efficiency of the city driving, because they overcome a lot of the inefficiencies from the stop-and-go driving. On the highway, however, hybrids over little improvement, given the same level of performance.
Of course, if highway = stop and go of rush hour, then that's much the same as city driving :D
Quote from: garbon on May 04, 2009, 12:57:25 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2009, 12:26:13 AM
It also depends on whether you're mainly driving in the city or on the highway. Hybrids can dramatically improve the efficiency of the city driving, because they overcome a lot of the inefficiencies from the stop-and-go driving. On the highway, however, hybrids over little improvement, given the same level of performance.
Of course, if highway = stop and go of rush hour, then that's much the same as city driving :D
That doesn't sound like any highway I know if. :goodboy:
Quote from: Barrister on May 04, 2009, 01:07:49 AM
That doesn't sound like any highway I know if. :goodboy:
Bypassing the typo...that's because you live in a sad, sad place....the kind of place that I wouldn't even wish upon my worst enemies. :(
Just get a turbo diesel. Best bang for the buck period.
Also: Hybrids? I thought you wanted car buffs! :lol:
Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2009, 12:26:13 AMIt also depends on whether you're mainly driving in the city or on the highway. Hybrids can dramatically improve the efficiency of the city driving, because they overcome a lot of the inefficiencies from the stop-and-go driving.
You could also get a diesel with a start-stop-automatic for city driving. Not as good as a hybrid, but an improvement.
QuoteOn the highway, however, hybrids over little improvement, given the same level of performance.
They are likely worse because they are considerably heavier. (at least if the normal engined car has the same other fuel saving features e.g. low friction tires)
I don't think that weight would directly have a significant effect on highway cruising mileage. Weight adds to rolling resistance, which is not a big factor at highway speeds compared to aerodynamic drag.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 04, 2009, 03:20:10 AM
Just get a turbo diesel. Best bang for the buck period.
Why is that?
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 04, 2009, 09:28:15 AM
They are likely worse because they are considerably heavier. (at least if the normal engined car has the same other fuel saving features e.g. low friction tires)
No, the mileage on most hybrids goes down on the highway for two reasons. First, the electric motors cut out after reaching a certain speed threshold. Second, they only charge up when the brakes are applied. As a result most hybrids only use the gase engine on the highway and so they get about the same mileage as traditional cars.
The Toyota Camry is a bit different in that the engine is designed so that both engines always work together and so it gets similiar highway and city mileage (both of which are very good) and it has a bit more horsepower then a comparable gas engine only car.
At least that is what the specs say. It seems to good to be true.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 04, 2009, 10:28:33 AM
The VW one do like 1100km per tanks.
I dont think I would fit in it but what is that mileage in litres/100 km.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2009, 10:24:51 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 04, 2009, 03:20:10 AM
Just get a turbo diesel. Best bang for the buck period.
Why is that?
Because they can do this: http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1016178_vw-vindication-jetta-tdi-averages-588-mpg
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2009, 10:31:15 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 04, 2009, 10:28:33 AM
The VW one do like 1100km per tanks.
I dont think I would fit in it but what is that mileage in litres/100 km.
How big are you? I'm 6'2", and Jetta is a bit of a tight fit for me, but not an uncomfortable one at all.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2009, 10:30:11 AM
Second, they only charge up when the brakes are applied.
Actually, the civic charges on the highway when you've gone a steady speed for a bit of time.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2009, 10:31:15 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 04, 2009, 10:28:33 AM
The VW one do like 1100km per tanks.
I dont think I would fit in it but what is that mileage in litres/100 km.
City 6.8 & Highway 4.9
Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2009, 10:35:14 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2009, 10:31:15 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 04, 2009, 10:28:33 AM
The VW one do like 1100km per tanks.
I dont think I would fit in it but what is that mileage in litres/100 km.
How big are you? I'm 6'2", and Jetta is a bit of a tight fit for me, but not an uncomfortable one at all.
Loco Canuck is 6'7"
For everyone advising to get a turbo-deisel - that would mean buying a german car. :(
Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2009, 10:35:14 AM
How big are you? I'm 6'2", and Jetta is a bit of a tight fit for me, but not an uncomfortable one at all.
6'7'' and my boys will both be over 6 in the next 3-4 years. So I need a car big enough to fit tall people in the front and back seats.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 04, 2009, 10:37:38 AM
City 6.8 & Highway 4.9
So that is about the same as the Camry Hybrid - 5.7 for both. Pluse the Camry is a much bigger car.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2009, 10:50:43 AM
6'7'' and my boys will both be over 6 in the next 3-4 years. So I need a car big enough to fit tall people in the front and back seats.
Oh, yeah, that's too big for Jetta, unless you take out the front seats and convert it into a 2-seater.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2009, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 04, 2009, 10:37:38 AM
City 6.8 & Highway 4.9
So that is about the same as the Camry Hybrid - 5.7 for both. Pluse the Camry is a much bigger car.
Pretty much. It's just (h)as a 6k$ lower starting price.
Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2009, 10:52:47 AM
Oh, yeah, that's too big for Jetta, unless you take out the front seats and convert it into a 2-seater.
:lol:
The thing that scares me about hybrids is their complexity - surely having two motors instead of one means twice the potential problems down the road.
Has anyone ever done a study on the long-term cost of ownership of hybrids?
The only thing where I could see problems with hybrids is their battery. As you all know from laptops even high-end batteries don't last more than a couple of years before seriously losing capacity. The motor itself is a) a very proven technology and b) has no moving parts so there is no mechanical wear and tear. I imagine the transmission is more interesting if you have a hybrid that uses the same transmission as your gasoline motor.
Quote from: Barrister on May 04, 2009, 11:22:53 AM
The thing that scares me about hybrids is their complexity - surely having two motors instead of one means twice the potential problems down the road.
Has anyone ever done a study on the long-term cost of ownership of hybrids?
Taxi companies love the Prius because they never break down and the maintenance is cost is low compared to conventional vehicles. Listening to cabby drivers rave about their Prius over the last couple years is what got me thinking about this in the first place.
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 04, 2009, 11:26:58 AM
The only thing where I could see problems with hybrids is their battery. As you all know from laptops even high-end batteries don't last more than a couple of years before seriously losing capacity. The motor itself is a) a very proven technology and b) has no moving parts so there is no mechanical wear and tear. I imagine the transmission is more interesting if you have a hybrid that uses the same transmission as your gasoline motor.
That was my concern as well. However the batteries are warrantied for 8 years. If there is any trouble they will put a new one in. Apparently there are very few bad batteries which allows them to have such a long warranty period. At present the cost of a new battery outside the warranty period is 2,500. Pretty steep but I assume that as the market develops the price will drop. Not sure how long the battery will actually last so this is the biggest potential concern.
But in a conventional car, after 8 years maintenance also becomes more costly and the risk of expensive engine repairs also increase. I figure that if I can get 8-10 years of low maintenance operation out of a vehicle it owes me nothing.
I am also going to look at the Altima and Fusion hybrids. Both seem to be more highly rated then the Camry.
But one is a Ford. I will have to try to view that as objectively as possible while putting my shitty experiences with fords back in the 80s behind me.
The Fusion hybrid is getting rave reviews, and Fords in general have supposedly been much improved in quality.
Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2009, 02:31:21 PM
The Fusion hybrid is getting rave reviews, and Fords in general have supposedly been much improved in quality.
Yeah, I saw some articles about that thing recently. Up to 700 miles on a tank of gas. :blink:
Apparently the Fords have really good quality nowadays. No one knows for sure tho.
Personnally, I'm just waiting to see if the Government will give me 3k$ for getting my 10 + years old car off the road or not.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hybridcars.com%2Ffiles%2FS400-blue-hybrid-side-502.jpg&hash=5dc189ad208cf14abeef86400282afdb4b1b9b19)
Why settle for anything less? ;)
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 04, 2009, 03:07:41 PM
Why settle for anything less? ;)
Agreed.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.myride.com%2Fimages%2Fvehicle%2F2008%2FCadillac%2FEscalade%2Foem%2F2008_Cadillac_Escalade_Hybrid_1_%28768x576%29.jpg&hash=f95dde758e7f9b7ef3b8a9eb94b3538105be862f)
Quote from: Barrister on May 04, 2009, 10:50:40 AM
For everyone advising to get a turbo-deisel - that would mean buying a german car. :(
Indeed. German cars are terrible.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2009, 02:04:14 PM
But one is a Ford. I will have to try to view that as objectively as possible while putting my shitty experiences with fords back in the 80s behind me.
I drive a mid-2000s Ford, and it's been very reliable. They've really got their act together, and although it isn't such a concern for a Vancouverite, they have the best heaters in the industry.
Quote from: Neil on May 04, 2009, 03:30:51 PMIndeed. German cars are terrible.
What do you base that assertion on?
Quote from: Jacob on May 04, 2009, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 04, 2009, 03:30:51 PMIndeed. German cars are terrible.
What do you base that assertion on?
I base it only my former 1985 BMW, plus repeated anecdotes from various people. They all seem to sum up that they are absolutely wonderful cars to drive, but reliability is a serious concern.
Quote from: Jacob on May 04, 2009, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 04, 2009, 03:30:51 PMIndeed. German cars are terrible.
What do you base that assertion on?
Word of mouth, and the design of their most recent dreadnoughts.
Also: Racism.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 04, 2009, 02:04:14 PM
I am also going to look at the Altima and Fusion hybrids. Both seem to be more highly rated then the Camry.
But one is a Ford. I will have to try to view that as objectively as possible while putting my shitty experiences with fords back in the 80s behind me.
You will not fit into the Fusion in the drivers seat. I can barely fit into it. Ford must have some retarded Italian ergonomist designing their driver's seats, because the driving position in the Fusion/Milan/MKZ is straight out of 1980s Ferraris- chin on knees, arms straight out. Fucking shit. That's the number one reason I drive a 2000 Accord coupe- most comfortable driving position of any car, ever.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvehicleimages.usedcar-network.com%2F2009%2FHonda%2F2009-honda-accord-coupe-crystal-black-pearl.jpeg&hash=ac30327e4291b8a3f9f526f723bb06c6f360fef8)
Nothing less than this.
A two door is not going to cut it Siegy. A family of four tall people would do some serious damage trying to squeeze into that.
Quote from: Barrister on May 04, 2009, 11:22:53 AM
The thing that scares me about hybrids is their complexity - surely having two motors instead of one means twice the potential problems down the road.
Has anyone ever done a study on the long-term cost of ownership of hybrids?
Electric engines are much, much, much, much, MUUUUCH simpler than internal combustion ones. I'd wager the problems (if any) will be in transmission.
Quote from: Barrister on May 04, 2009, 10:50:40 AM
For everyone advising to get a turbo-deisel - that would mean buying a german car. :(
Err ... Every single manufacturer uses turbodiesel engines.
Quote from: Scipio on May 04, 2009, 05:36:13 PM
You will not fit into the Fusion in the drivers seat. I can barely fit into it.
Thanks for the tip.
Quote from: Iormlund on May 05, 2009, 01:12:31 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 04, 2009, 10:50:40 AM
For everyone advising to get a turbo-deisel - that would mean buying a german car. :(
Err ... Every single manufacturer uses turbodiesel engines.
I don't think that's the case in US. Ever since emission regulations were tightened for diesels, only VW/Audi and Mercedes ofter turbodiesel passenger cars.