Wouldn't this violate Federal labor law :unsure:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/tougher_than_wisconsin_arizona_republicans_launch.php?ref=fpblg
QuoteTougher Than Wisconsin: Arizona Republicans Launch 'All Out Assault' On Public Unions
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Nick R. Martin January 31, 2012, 5:13 PM 24656 264
With a sweeping series of bills introduced Monday night in the state Senate, Republicans in Arizona hoped to make Wisconsin's battle against public unions last year look like a lightweight sparring match.
The bills include a total ban on collective bargaining for Arizona's public employees, including at the city and county levels. The move would outpace even the tough bargaining restrictions enacted in Wisconsin in 2011 that led to massive union protests and a Democratic effort to recall Republican Gov. Scott Walker.
"At first glance, it looks like an all out assault on the right of workers to organize," Senate Minority Leader David Schapira (D) told TPM on Tuesday. "And to me, that's a serious problem."
The bills were crafted with the help of the Goldwater Institute, a powerful conservative think tank in Phoenix that flew Walker to the state for an event in November. Nick Dranias, director of the institute's Center for Constitutional Government, told TPM he sees Walker as a "hero" but that Wisconsin's laws were "modest" compared to Arizona's measures.
"In Arizona, we believe that the political will exists to do even more comprehensive reform," Dranias said. "The environment, the climate that we face in Arizona is much more receptive to these kinds of reforms than Wisconsin is."
Beyond a ban on collective bargaining, the bills would also prohibit state and local government workers from deducting money from their paychecks to pay union dues.
They would ban state and local governments from paying anyone to spend time doing union work, a practice known as "release time."
And in another break from the Wisconsin model, the restrictions would affect every type of public union, including police and firefighters.
Arizona is a right-to-work state, which gives unions a much smaller role there than in states like Wisconsin. But laws still currently give labor groups a place at the bargaining table to negotiate pay and other benefits for their members. All of that would change under the proposed rules.
Schapira, who is also running for Congress this year, said he expects the laws to easily pass unless something major happens. Democrats in the Senate are outnumbered 21-9, so he said there isn't much they can do to stop the bills on their own.
"I think it's kind of an all-hands-on-deck thing," Schapira said. "We've got to get people down here at the Capitol to talk to their legislators, to contact them by phone or email and if need be to actually spend a significant amount of time here protesting these bills."
The restrictions are on top of a proposal that Gov. Jan Brewer made earlier this month, saying she would offer state employees their first pay raise in years in exchange for giving up certain protections.
In light of that, Dranias said he expects the governor to be supportive of the new bills. The governor's office did not return a message seeking comment. Sen. Rick Murphy (R), who introduced three of the four bills, also could not be reached for comment.
Dranias said the measures were inspired by Wisconsin but were more modeled after legislation passed in Virginia about 30 years ago. He said the goal of the measures wasn't to ban public unions from Arizona but to make them seem obsolete.
"Gradually this would cause people to leave the unions as they recognized that unions no longer have an unfair bargaining advantage given to them by collective bargaining laws," Dranias said. "They'll realize that unions don't do much for them."
He said the institute has told Arizona's legislators the state will save as much as $550 million a year if they put an end to collective bargaining.
Mine does fuck all, but they are trying - and will probably succeed - in changing the rules so that we eitehr must belong or get terminated. As it is people have to pay the dues whether they are members or not.
In the private sector Unions organize against their employers, against whom are public sector Unions organized? The public? Indiana just converted into a right to work state,
this seems to be a growing movement and the death of the Unions. They're already dead in the private sector and now they're beeing squeezed out of the government as well,
since they're bankrupting State and local gov't. The only thing besides corruption Unions seem to be good at in the US is the death of their employers.
OMG a Hansmeister sighting? :o
As usual Hans goes to far in his analysis, but I am proud to say that I am yet again a non-unionized public servant. :)
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
It's the throwing out the word "corruption" that goes too far Hans. Most unions aren't the Teamsters.
I don't think unions are healthy for the economy, but that doesn't mean they aren't filled with people who aren't well-meaning (but deeply misguided).
Quote from: Barrister on February 02, 2012, 11:12:55 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
It's the throwing out the word "corruption" that goes too far Hans. Most unions aren't the Teamsters.
I don't think unions are healthy for the economy, but that doesn't mean they aren't filled with people who aren't well-meaning (but deeply misguided).
:angry:
Quote from: Barrister on February 02, 2012, 11:12:55 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
It's the throwing out the word "corruption" that goes too far Hans. Most unions aren't the Teamsters.
I don't think unions are healthy for the economy, but that doesn't mean they aren't filled with people who aren't well-meaning (but deeply misguided).
That the Union leadership in most cases in the US is deeply corrupt isn't really a earth-shattering revelation. I've actually always feel sorry for the rank-and-file members being so exploited by their leadership.
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:16:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 02, 2012, 11:12:55 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
It's the throwing out the word "corruption" that goes too far Hans. Most unions aren't the Teamsters.
I don't think unions are healthy for the economy, but that doesn't mean they aren't filled with people who aren't well-meaning (but deeply misguided).
That the Union leadership in most cases in the US is deeply corrupt isn't really a earth-shattering revelation. I've actually always feel sorry for the rank-and-file members being so exploited by their leadership.
Yeah. You should.
This sounds like something good out of Arizona.
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:16:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 02, 2012, 11:12:55 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
It's the throwing out the word "corruption" that goes too far Hans. Most unions aren't the Teamsters.
I don't think unions are healthy for the economy, but that doesn't mean they aren't filled with people who aren't well-meaning (but deeply misguided).
That the Union leadership in most cases in the US is deeply corrupt isn't really a earth-shattering revelation. I've actually always feel sorry for the rank-and-file members being so exploited by their leadership.
Did you know that my wife was President of her local public service union? :yeahright:
So how is it living with such a corrupt woman?
Quote from: katmai on February 02, 2012, 11:44:15 PM
So how is it living with such a corrupt woman?
:perv:
Just disable Sith corruption.
Quote from: Barrister on February 02, 2012, 11:12:55 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
It's the throwing out the word "corruption" that goes too far Hans. Most unions aren't the Teamsters.
I don't think unions are healthy for the economy, but that doesn't mean they aren't filled with people who aren't well-meaning (but deeply misguided).
Hansy often gets "Unions" confused with "United Way".
Unions are the only thing keeping the rich from getting a rifle in the face.
Quote from: Barrister on February 02, 2012, 11:41:36 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:16:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 02, 2012, 11:12:55 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
It's the throwing out the word "corruption" that goes too far Hans. Most unions aren't the Teamsters.
I don't think unions are healthy for the economy, but that doesn't mean they aren't filled with people who aren't well-meaning (but deeply misguided).
That the Union leadership in most cases in the US is deeply corrupt isn't really a earth-shattering revelation. I've actually always feel sorry for the rank-and-file members being so exploited by their leadership.
Did you know that my wife was President of her local public service union? :yeahright:
BB's in Soviet Canuckistan, so his wife is an apparatchik for the local party bureau.
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
You've never made a secret that you hate who ever the Conservative movement tells you to hate. So, have you finally jumped on the Birther bandwagon yet?
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 03, 2012, 07:47:37 AM
Unions are the only thing keeping the rich from getting a rifle in the face.
It's puzzling why so few rich people in right to work states have a rifle currently in their face. :hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2012, 09:19:16 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 03, 2012, 07:47:37 AM
Unions are the only thing keeping the rich from getting a rifle in the face.
It's puzzling why so few rich people in right to work states have a rifle currently in their face. :hmm:
They don't have rifles anyway; they're all loaned out to Teabaggers who take them to Obama rallies.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2012, 09:19:16 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 03, 2012, 07:47:37 AM
Unions are the only thing keeping the rich from getting a rifle in the face.
It's puzzling why so few rich people in right to work states have a rifle currently in their face. :hmm:
They have rifles of their own. Before they had Unions the rich also had small armies.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:11:23 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
You've never made a secret that you hate who ever the Conservative movement tells you to hate. So, have you finally jumped on the Birther bandwagon yet?
You're projecting again. Blindly following a political messiah and his dreams of an utopian state are hallmarks of the left.
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 03, 2012, 09:22:04 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:11:23 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
You've never made a secret that you hate who ever the Conservative movement tells you to hate. So, have you finally jumped on the Birther bandwagon yet?
You're projecting again. Blindly following a political messiah and his dreams of an utopian state are hallmarks of the left.
Enlighten us then, Hansy: name one entrenched GOPtard policy you don't march lockstep with. Not fucking with you, I'd like to know because I don't believe I've identified one yet with you, s'all.
Uh, huh. This messiah crap is something that exists only the Conservative echo chamber.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxdt_f0hwUg On the other hand.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2012, 09:24:51 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 03, 2012, 09:22:04 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:11:23 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
Harrassing you guys from beautiful FOB Gamberi. :D
I've never made much of a secret of how much I hate Unions. Heck, I hated Unions when I lived in Germany, and they're a hundred times better than these corrupt monstrosities we have here.
You've never made a secret that you hate who ever the Conservative movement tells you to hate. So, have you finally jumped on the Birther bandwagon yet?
You're projecting again. Blindly following a political messiah and his dreams of an utopian state are hallmarks of the left.
Enlighten us then, Hansy: name one entrenched GOPtard policy you don't march lockstep with. Not fucking with you, I'd like to know because I don't believe I've identified one yet with you, s'all.
There is no such thing as an entrenched GOP position, since there is usually a conservative and an libertarian position on every issue that are always in conflict. When I argue with conservatives
I tend to take a libertarian position and vise versa. When I argue with
idiots leftists I tend towards ridicule since they seem incapable of having intelligent and consistent positions.
My positions are consistent whatever else is going on, it is the left whose positions are entirely defined by who is in power. prime example would be JR constant raving about President Bush's policies
on Gitmo, wireless surveillance, deficits, the imperial presidency, the politization of the justice dep't, etc. Yet in three years he has never had a single complaint about Obama not only continuing these
policies, but greatly expanding them. That is what a mindless party hack sounds like.
I've criticized Republicans plenty of times, the first time was in the old EUOT when I attacked Bush's steel tarrifs back in 2001. I went back to the think tank I used to work at to defend Obama's surge
in Afghanistan in front of an audience that was very hostile to that idea and smacked down a birther in the process.
When have you ever been anything but a shill for the Democrats? Behind all that bluster you have never veered off the reservation.
You've barely been here in the last 3 years...
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 03, 2012, 09:36:18 AM
I've criticized Republicans plenty of times, the first time was in the old EUOT when I attacked Bush's steel tarrifs back in 2001. I went back to the think tank I used to work at to defend Obama's surge in Afghanistan in front of an audience that was very hostile to that idea and smacked down a birther in the process.
When have you ever been anything but a shill for the Democrats? Behind all that bluster you have never veered off the reservation.
Steel tariffs. OK.
Me? I dunno...my thoughts on immigration, law enforcement, foreign policy, defense and energy policy don't exactly get me invited to Bill Ayers' house. :lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2012, 09:20:51 AM
They don't have rifles anyway; they're all loaned out to Teabaggers who take them to Obama rallies.
All the angry proletarians in right to work states loaned their guns to their Teabagger buddies?
You sure you don't want to rethink this one?
You have revesed yourself many times Hans. Particularly on the Iraq war. You had been telling up it's been hunky dory for years. Then after 2006 you said you had "Private reservations", about it the whole time.
By the way, which one is the Birther issue? Libertarian or Conservative?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2012, 09:40:06 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2012, 09:20:51 AM
They don't have rifles anyway; they're all loaned out to Teabaggers who take them to Obama rallies.
All the angry proletarians in right to work states loaned their guns to their Teabagger buddies?
You sure you don't want to rethink this one?
I like shotguns. All over the place, target not necessarily hit. You know that.
I take down my Hans quote decrying democracy and the next day he shows up. Great. <_<
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:43:51 AM
I take down my Hans quote decrying democracy and the next day he shows up. Great. <_<
That wasn't a quote decrying democracy. It was a quote decrying the safety net/handouts.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:43:51 AM
I take down my Hans quote decrying democracy and the next day he shows up. Great. <_<
I'm sure Guller has a copy. He keeps copies of this place.
Creepy. NKVD creepy.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:40:52 AM
You have revesed yourself many times Hans. Particularly on the Iraq war. You had been telling up it's been hunky dory for years. Then after 2006 you said you had "Private reservations", about it the whole time.
By the way, which one is the Birther issue? Libertarian or Conservative?
Wow, somebody definitely has not been paying attention. I had several times complained about Generals squandering opportunities created by major defeats of Al Qaeda. There were three seperate
occasions early in the war were we virtually wiped out Al Qaeda, only for us to pull back and give them room to reconstitute themselves. Indeed, for years I was very critical of how we were going
about parts of our campaign, though I spent a lot more time ridiculing the silly attacks by the msm and the Democrats on our efforts. Quite frankly, their positions tended to be extremely silly and
uninformed, and very easy to ridicule.
Reminds me of Katrina where the msm and the Democrats fabricated a whole host of ridiculous fantasies for purely political reasons. Doesn't mean Katrina wasn't a disaster, just that most of the
public debate was based on BS.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:43:51 AM
I take down my Hans quote decrying democracy and the next day he shows up. Great. <_<
And you think it is a coincidence?
And of course I oppose democracy, since I oppose rule by mob. I've always favored a Republican style of government. Heck, I oppose universal suffrage. People ought to have to earn the right to vote.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:37:37 AM
You've barely been here in the last 3 years...
Not that Hansy should take it as a complaint in any way.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 03, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:43:51 AM
I take down my Hans quote decrying democracy and the next day he shows up. Great. <_<
I'm sure Guller has a copy. He keeps copies of this place.
Creepy. NKVD creepy.
Unfortunately, I don't keep copies of Raz's signature. Even NKVD has a limit to the amount of surveillance data it can store.
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 03, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
Heck, I oppose universal suffrage. People ought to have to earn the right to vote.
:lol:
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on February 02, 2012, 10:53:27 PM
Mine does fuck all, but they are trying - and will probably succeed - in changing the rules so that we eitehr must belong or get terminated. As it is people have to pay the dues whether they are members or not.
Good luck with that, since that's against Taft-Hartley. Belong or pay dues anyway is as close as they can get.
My positions are pretty consistent.
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 03, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:43:51 AM
I take down my Hans quote decrying democracy and the next day he shows up. Great. <_<
And you think it is a coincidence?
And of course I oppose democracy, since I oppose rule by mob. I've always favored a Republican style of government. Heck, I oppose universal suffrage. People ought to have to earn the right to vote.
Whoa. How come didn't this occurr to me?
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:04:45 PM
In the private sector Unions organize against their employers, against whom are public sector Unions organized? The public?
Yep. Franklin Roosevelt basically said this when he was defending why he did not allow public sector Unions and thought they were a ridiculous idea. I always thought it was funny that basically FDR would be far right on this topic today.
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2012, 01:41:43 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:04:45 PM
In the private sector Unions organize against their employers, against whom are public sector Unions organized? The public?
Yep. Franklin Roosevelt basically said this when he was defending why he did not allow public sector Unions and thought they were a ridiculous idea. I always thought it was funny that basically FDR would be far right on this topic today.
I think it illustrates nicely that the foundation of Democrat support for Unions has nothing really to do with ideology, and everything to do with political influence and corruption.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:43:51 AM
I take down my Hans quote decrying democracy and the next day he shows up. Great. <_<
That wasn't a quote decrying democracy. It was a quote decrying the safety net/handouts.
QuoteAnd of course I oppose democracy, since I oppose rule by mob. I've always favored a Republican style of government. Heck, I oppose universal suffrage. People ought to have to earn the right to vote.
Gotcha.
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 03, 2012, 09:48:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:40:52 AM
You have revesed yourself many times Hans. Particularly on the Iraq war. You had been telling up it's been hunky dory for years. Then after 2006 you said you had "Private reservations", about it the whole time.
By the way, which one is the Birther issue? Libertarian or Conservative?
Wow, somebody definitely has not been paying attention. I had several times complained about Generals squandering opportunities created by major defeats of Al Qaeda. There were three seperate
occasions early in the war were we virtually wiped out Al Qaeda, only for us to pull back and give them room to reconstitute themselves. Indeed, for years I was very critical of how we were going
about parts of our campaign, though I spent a lot more time ridiculing the silly attacks by the msm and the Democrats on our efforts. Quite frankly, their positions tended to be extremely silly and
uninformed, and very easy to ridicule.
Reminds me of Katrina where the msm and the Democrats fabricated a whole host of ridiculous fantasies for purely political reasons. Doesn't mean Katrina wasn't a disaster, just that most of the
public debate was based on BS.
It's shame we don't have the archives here anymore. :(
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 04:00:43 PM
Gotcha.
Those are two seperate quotes. :secret:
Although after Square Head made his post it struck me that the quote you had in your sig might have included something about denying the vote to poor people.
I'm aware that's to separate quotes. Hans just gave us the jist of what he thinks. His post was his hatred of the social contract and how the poor shouldn't vote. I. E. Decrying Democracy.
Doing some net jujitsu I found it.
QuoteFuck the social contract, I didn't sign on to having millions of worthless pieces of shit demanding handouts while contributing no effort themselves. Why should those who work hard, save money for the future, and take responsibility for themselves be required to bail out all the worthless layabouts who blow all their money and then some ob big-screen TVs and XBOX 360's and then want a handout because working would distract from their play time.
Fuck em all. There is nothing more antisocial than the "social contract", which rewards bad behavior and punishes responsibility. This is why the poor shouldn't be allowed to vote: they end up voting to rob the public until eventually society collapses under their irresponsibility.
Hans, April 17th 2011
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 03, 2012, 09:48:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:40:52 AM
You have revesed yourself many times Hans. Particularly on the Iraq war. You had been telling up it's been hunky dory for years. Then after 2006 you said you had "Private reservations", about it the whole time.
By the way, which one is the Birther issue? Libertarian or Conservative?
Wow, somebody definitely has not been paying attention. I had several times complained about Generals squandering opportunities created by major defeats of Al Qaeda. There were three seperate
occasions early in the war were we virtually wiped out Al Qaeda, only for us to pull back and give them room to reconstitute themselves. Indeed, for years I was very critical of how we were going
about parts of our campaign, though I spent a lot more time ridiculing the silly attacks by the msm and the Democrats on our efforts. Quite frankly, their positions tended to be extremely silly and
uninformed, and very easy to ridicule.
Reminds me of Katrina where the msm and the Democrats fabricated a whole host of ridiculous fantasies for purely political reasons. Doesn't mean Katrina wasn't a disaster, just that most of the
public debate was based on BS.
I pay attention enough to know you still have't answered my question on the Birther issue.
So Hans feels it's not OK to be bound by the social contract because he didn't sign it, but thinks it's perfectly fine to have a class of people be subjected to the laws of the government without having a say in it. I know poking holes in Hans's arguments is like taking on a 2-year old in a fist fight, but serioulsy? And the most frustrating part is that this imbecile is living off the tax money (or at least used to).
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 04:18:13 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 03, 2012, 09:48:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2012, 09:40:52 AM
You have revesed yourself many times Hans. Particularly on the Iraq war. You had been telling up it's been hunky dory for years. Then after 2006 you said you had "Private reservations", about it the whole time.
By the way, which one is the Birther issue? Libertarian or Conservative?
Wow, somebody definitely has not been paying attention. I had several times complained about Generals squandering opportunities created by major defeats of Al Qaeda. There were three seperate
occasions early in the war were we virtually wiped out Al Qaeda, only for us to pull back and give them room to reconstitute themselves. Indeed, for years I was very critical of how we were going
about parts of our campaign, though I spent a lot more time ridiculing the silly attacks by the msm and the Democrats on our efforts. Quite frankly, their positions tended to be extremely silly and
uninformed, and very easy to ridicule.
Reminds me of Katrina where the msm and the Democrats fabricated a whole host of ridiculous fantasies for purely political reasons. Doesn't mean Katrina wasn't a disaster, just that most of the
public debate was based on BS.
I pay attention enough to know you still have't answered my question on the Birther issue.
I think Hans has been pretty firm on birthers being idiots.
He even told us an anecdote about giving a speech and having some birther come up and talk to him afterwards.
I don't know why Hans has to answer about birthers or not. I know if somebody gave me the forum equivalent of poking me in the chest, I'd not answer either.
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2012, 04:50:52 PM
So Hans feels it's not OK to be bound by the social contract because he didn't sign it, but thinks it's perfectly fine to have a class of people be subjected to the laws of the government without having a say in it. I know poking holes in Hans's arguments is like taking on a 2-year old in a fist fight, but serioulsy? And the most frustrating part is that this imbecile is living off the tax money (or at least used to).
I can think of a couple of classes of people who are subject to the laws without having a say in them.
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2012, 01:56:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2012, 01:41:43 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 02, 2012, 11:04:45 PM
In the private sector Unions organize against their employers, against whom are public sector Unions organized? The public?
Yep. Franklin Roosevelt basically said this when he was defending why he did not allow public sector Unions and thought they were a ridiculous idea. I always thought it was funny that basically FDR would be far right on this topic today.
I think it illustrates nicely that the foundation of Democrat support for Unions has nothing really to do with ideology, and everything to do with political influence and corruption.
Well I chastised Hans for using the word corruption, so I suppose I should take you to task for it as well.
In what way are public service unions corrupt?
Quote from: Barrister on February 03, 2012, 04:53:01 PM
I think Hans has been pretty firm on birthers being idiots.
He even told us an anecdote about giving a speech and having some birther come up and talk to him afterwards.
He didn't say if it came from the Conservative or Libertarian wing of the party.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2012, 05:09:00 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2012, 04:50:52 PM
So Hans feels it's not OK to be bound by the social contract because he didn't sign it, but thinks it's perfectly fine to have a class of people be subjected to the laws of the government without having a say in it. I know poking holes in Hans's arguments is like taking on a 2-year old in a fist fight, but serioulsy? And the most frustrating part is that this imbecile is living off the tax money (or at least used to).
I can think of a couple of classes of people who are subject to the laws without having a say in them.
Do they include the poor?
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 03, 2012, 05:02:41 PM
I don't know why Hans has to answer about birthers or not. I know if somebody gave me the forum equivalent of poking me in the chest, I'd not answer either.
If he wants to come out swinging he's going to have to take some of the pitches.
Quote from: Barrister on February 03, 2012, 05:13:56 PM
Well I chastised Hans for using the word corruption, so I suppose I should take you to task for it as well.
In what way are public service unions corrupt?
I would say that one type of public unions that should be assumed to be corrupt until proven otherwise are police unions. It seems like a large part of their work involves either protecing police officers from punishment for abuse of power, or facilitating subtle forms of bribery (like giving a sticker in exchange for "donation"), to be displayed conspicuously when pulled over by a cop.
Quote from: Barrister on February 03, 2012, 05:13:56 PM
Well I chastised Hans for using the word corruption, so I suppose I should take you to task for it as well.
In what way are public service unions corrupt?
Big part is the same way private sector unions are corrupt: buying politicians.
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2012, 05:28:41 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 03, 2012, 05:13:56 PM
Well I chastised Hans for using the word corruption, so I suppose I should take you to task for it as well.
In what way are public service unions corrupt?
Big part is the same way private sector unions are corrupt: buying politicians.
They are corrupt because they oppose things Hans wants. If they were on his side, they would be beacons or morality.
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2012, 05:27:18 PM
or facilitating subtle forms of bribery (like giving a sticker in exchange for "donation"), to be displayed conspicuously when pulled over by a cop.
Stickers on a window don't mean shit to cops.
Now license plates, that's a different story.
Quote from: Hansmeister on February 03, 2012, 09:51:39 AM
Heck, I oppose universal suffrage. People ought to have to earn the right to vote.
I think that's overly simplistic. While it sounds pleasant on the surface, if you think about it that's not such a good policy. By including people in the political process, you allow them to air their grievances within the system, and thus you tend to avoid the political violence of previous years. Now, if you wanted to attack universal suffrage from the other side, where people who have done great wrongs should be excluded, then that's another thing. Even then though, such a thing would be pointless, as there are only a tiny number of people to whom one could apply a 'political death penalty', and stripping a tiny number of their vote isn't worth the hassle and potential for abuse of having such a process.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 03, 2012, 05:02:41 PM
I don't know why Hans has to answer about birthers or not. I know if somebody gave me the forum equivalent of poking me in the chest, I'd not answer either.
Especially if that person was Raz. He keeps trying the same tired, pointless and false attacks. He's like the forum equivalent of Tom DeLay.
Quote from: Neil on February 03, 2012, 09:04:58 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 03, 2012, 05:02:41 PM
I don't know why Hans has to answer about birthers or not. I know if somebody gave me the forum equivalent of poking me in the chest, I'd not answer either.
Especially if that person was Raz. He keeps trying the same tired, pointless and false attacks. He's like the forum equivalent of Tom DeLay.
I know you can do better then that. Step up your game. Give me a good one.