No, this is not a story about how the Axis or the CSA or Novgorod or The Central Powers or The Roman Empire triumphed over the Allies or the USA or Muscovy or The Entente or The Goths respectively. This thread is about a thought experiment that I think we have all done. If I could travel back in time and change the past what would I do. I don't care about the obviously selfish goals that one might have of buing real estate on top of oil/diamonds/gold etc. or shorting the various stock market crashes or monetizing some modern invention in the past. I am talking about the altruistic time traveller, the one that kills hitler or saves James Dean's life etc.
My first foray into this kind of thinking was when I was in high school and though that if I could return to 1923 with a sniper rifle I could kill hitler in the Beer Hall Putch and nobody would be any the wiser. I felt pretty smug about this plot until I heard of the SOE evaluation of the feasability of murdering Hitler. They thought it could be done quite reliably but observed that killing him would be a really really bad idea on the grounds that Hitler was more detrimental to the German war effort than any other person alive at the time. The alternative variants that I concocted were to show up before the 1929 crash, short sell everything become monstrously rich and then use my advanced technology blueprints brought from the future to kit the allies out with über equipment e.g. kitting out the allies with P-51H's and Centurion's in 1939 complete with post war doctrine manuals; the likely result of this is that the allies don't bother buying the stuff because it is way too expensive and the doctrines merely words on paper to them. The other was to approach Churchill with historical foreknowledge of upcoming events to convince him to take correct actions; this only results in Norway being saved and Chamberlain still being PM when France Falls; which in my mind is probably the worst possible result.
Setting aside the Butterfly Effect of Bradbury's "The Sound of Thunder" where everything I do might have a slight effect on the rythm my grand-dads might have a few years later when concieving my parents (resulting in a different sperm arriving first). I cannot think of any actual result which might be better than the present timeline. This is not some panglossian idiocy of the goodness of the world, no. This is the culmination of my Whig view of history. I am a person of my time holding the values of my time and any trip to the past would be to speed them along or help the present values.
Just imagine the French Army of 1939 fielding 1950's technology and doctrine stomping Hitler's Germany in a few weeks. What effect would that have on Nazism? Would it be discredited as it was by the Holocaust? Would we have open Facists and Nazis today decrying the Imperialist Liberal West imposition of "democracy" denying the various peoples of the world their National Will? Would the real philosophical tenents of facism and nazism survive as a Jubal Early style lost cause fetischism [sic]?
I know Neil would travel to 1919 and assasinate Billy Mitchell and Lettow would travel to 1861 to give Stonewall Jackson a Kevlar Vest; these are almost Languish tropes. What I'd like to know is would any actual Languishite wish to travel back in time to change som actual event for altruistic reasons? In asking this question I'll allow you to still come into being despite the fact that any change you might have on the past almost certainly will cause your granddad to scratch his balls at a slightly differnt time in a slightly different manner at some point before conceiving your parents.
What, if anything, would you want to change? Would it really be a change for the better?
Every scenario I've ever posted was 1,000,000,000 times more realistic than this.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 11, 2012, 10:57:11 PM
Every scenario I've ever posted was 1,000,000,000 more like than this.
More like what? :P
Nothing. You didnt watch the movie, "Butterfly Effect"? You cant change anything without it impacting something else.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 11, 2012, 11:02:29 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 11, 2012, 11:00:47 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 11, 2012, 10:57:11 PM
Every scenario I've ever posted was 1,000,000,000 more like than this.
More like what? :P
realistic :blush:
I think that's because my entire point is that my scenarios are completely unrealistic for the simple reason that they cannot achieve their goal and ultimately the goal is to reach today and the only way to reach today is to let the past happen as it did. The question here is is there actually something about today that people will want to change by altering the past.
I'd like to show up before WWI and tell everyone to cut that shit out.
I don't think Hitler was so detrimental to the German cause. His role was paradoxical, they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did if he hadn't been there. Sane people wouldn't have tried to get away with so much with such a poor hand. However, the risky nature of Hitler's rule also meant they would inevitably over reach, eventually destroying them totally.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 11, 2012, 11:06:29 PM
Nothing. You didnt watch the movie, "Butterfly Effect"? You cant change anything without it impacting something else.
No, I didn't watch the "Butterfly Effect" and have no intention of doing so.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 11, 2012, 11:06:29 PM
Nothing. You didnt watch the movie, "Butterfly Effect"? You cant change anything without it impacting something else.
I managed to avoid it as well. Looked terrible.
Quote from: Viking on January 11, 2012, 11:10:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 11, 2012, 11:06:29 PM
Nothing. You didnt watch the movie, "Butterfly Effect"? You cant change anything without it impacting something else.
No, I didn't watch the "Butterfly Effect" and have no intention of doing so.
it's actually an ok movie
Yeah, it was pleasantly surprising. I figured it would suck, instead it was alright, and some parts are pretty good.
Anyway, past people were amoral dolts, and therefore simply dominating them would be in its own way rather altruistic, as we in the present are smarter and more ethical. Therefore, I'd go back with guns, vehicles, ammo, and fuel, with as many people as I can entice to come along, to create a dictatorship amongst the savages in Rome, Carthage, China, or Egypt, based loosely upon U.S. constitutional principles but more solidly upon the fact that we are armed with weapons they cannot defend themselves against.
Stop the American revolution, resolve things peacefully, British Commonwealth goes on to rule the world through peace, democracy and cricket.
I keep imagining myself going back in time - to tell the Germans what to do to win WWII :blush:
Quote from: Tyr on January 12, 2012, 02:06:54 AM
Stop the American revolution, resolve things peacefully, British Commonwealth goes on to rule the world through peace, democracy and cricket.
How would you do that?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
Kill Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky in 1917. :yeah:
Just to see what happens next.
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:23:19 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
I take it under your US style constitutional system the temporal locals would count as 3/5 of man for determining numbers of representatives?
Quote from: Monoriu on January 12, 2012, 03:13:50 AM
I keep imagining myself going back in time - to tell the Germans what to do to win WWII :blush:
What would you be telling them?
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:23:19 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
Hopefully it's a better plan your previous lawyer plan.
The key isn't the Germans, it's the Japs. They need to develop industries in China and roll over Asia with their tanks, including Siberia. This puts immense pressure on the Soviets, so either the Germans or Japanese can break through and pick up Moscow. Once all of Eurasia is under Axis hands, victory is inevitable.
I think there is more then to it then just saying "Build up industry in China", or showing up with an armful of blueprints. The biggest single thing you could take back to the 1930's to change the course of the war would be a transistor (and of course the knowledge of how it works and how to make one). Smaller, cheaper, and more robust electronics would make a huge difference in the war. In particular radios, but also radar and computers.
Show up in 1518 Madrid with a flashlight and take over by pretending to be Jesus for extra irony.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 12, 2012, 05:17:05 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on January 12, 2012, 03:13:50 AM
I keep imagining myself going back in time - to tell the Germans what to do to win WWII :blush:
What would you be telling them?
Depends on the year. But fixing enigma will be high on the list. So is hanging a guy called Stauffenberg.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 12, 2012, 05:32:29 AM
I think there is more then to it then just saying "Build up industry in China",
If you don't build industry in China, you have to waste too many ICs building transport ships. Also, you end up with men rather than tanks, and they can't conquer Asia fast enough.
I would kill the guy who invents fire, steal the recipe and make billions.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on January 12, 2012, 05:50:24 AM
Show up in 1518 Madrid with a flashlight and take over by pretending to be Jesus for extra irony.
Primitive doesn't mean dumb. I think they'd figure it out pretty quick.
If I could only go back and convince George not to mess with the original Star Wars trilogy. :(
Quote from: Razgovory on January 12, 2012, 05:17:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:23:19 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
Hopefully it's a better plan your previous lawyer plan.
My new plan is to go back and strangle Crazy McGlasshouse in his fucking crib.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 12, 2012, 05:19:53 AM
The key isn't the Germans, it's the Japs. They need to develop industries in China and roll over Asia with their tanks, including Siberia.
Sure, that could happen. Because Siberia is easily traversible and not at all large and is not likely to involve a logistical nightmare for the least logistically competent major belligerent in World War II, and also because the Soviets depended entirely upon the industry and population east of Chelyabinsk to beat the Germans.
Probably something like give Archduke Franz Ferdinand's driver a map of Sarajevo. Or heck I would just grab Princip's arm before he can fire.
Or maybe get a few big dudes and surprise John Wilkes Booth on his way to Ford's Theatre. That would be fun to kick that Lettowist fuck around a bit.
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 12, 2012, 01:45:47 PM
If I could only go back and convince George not to mess with the original Star Wars trilogy. :(
Or arrange an accident to kill him the day after The Empire Strikes Back came out.
RotJ was a fine film. You just don't get it.
Quote from: Viking on January 12, 2012, 03:15:30 AM
How would you do that?
Easy. You split the colonies by pandering to the local elites. It was a marriage with a large amount of tension anyway.
You were just going to have to give up on Parliament being able to pass laws for them. But you might work out a deal with the local elites where they most patriotically agree to pay a certain percentage of the expenses for defense of the Empire...in exchange for plum military posts for them as well.
Edit: Oh wait you mean what would Tyr do...um...yeah probably nothing he could do as a time traveler :blush:
I'd go back and fuck 298 widows in Sparta after Thermopylae.
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 12, 2012, 03:33:58 PM
I'd go back and fuck 298 widows in Sparta after Thermopylae.
Meh the rules of the thread require you to do altruistic things. But maybe you are thinking of improving the world by setting your super sperm to strengthen the ancient Greeks.
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 03:35:54 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 12, 2012, 03:33:58 PM
I'd go back and fuck 298 widows in Sparta after Thermopylae.
Meh the rules of the thread require you to do altruistic things. But maybe you are thinking of improving the world by setting your super sperm to strengthen the ancient Greeks.
I don't need no stinkin' rules. And Sparta needs hoplites. I will make them. Little half American, half greek ones. I WILL BE A GOD.
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2012, 03:27:34 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 12, 2012, 01:45:47 PM
If I could only go back and convince George not to mess with the original Star Wars trilogy. :(
Or arrange an accident to kill him the day after The Empire Strikes Back came out.
I thought about that, but I did like the Indy movies and the Star Wars marketing machine (examples: legos, Battlefront II, misc toys).
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:19:11 PM
Sure, that could happen. Because Siberia is easily traversible and not at all large and is not likely to involve a logistical nightmare for the least logistically competent major belligerent in World War II, and also because the Soviets depended entirely upon the industry and population east of Chelyabinsk to beat the Germans.
Are you suggesting the simulation isn't entirely realistic? :o
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 12, 2012, 05:17:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:23:19 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
Hopefully it's a better plan your previous lawyer plan.
My new plan is to go back and strangle Crazy McGlasshouse in his fucking crib.
What if you already did, but felt bad and only did half the job? :homestar:
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 12, 2012, 05:17:54 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:23:19 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
Hopefully it's a better plan your previous lawyer plan.
My new plan is to go back and strangle Crazy McGlasshouse in his fucking crib.
My dad was pretty strong back in those days. He could probably kick your ass.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 12, 2012, 09:52:06 PM
My dad was pretty strong back in those days. He could probably kick your ass.
That's why he does it while your pop's at work.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 12, 2012, 05:19:53 AM
The key isn't the Germans, it's the Japs. They need to develop industries in China and roll over Asia with their tanks, including Siberia. This puts immense pressure on the Soviets, so either the Germans or Japanese can break through and pick up Moscow. Once all of Eurasia is under Axis hands, victory is inevitable.
I agree :yes:
Quote from: Viking on January 12, 2012, 03:15:30 AM
Quote from: Tyr on January 12, 2012, 02:06:54 AM
Stop the American revolution, resolve things peacefully, British Commonwealth goes on to rule the world through peace, democracy and cricket.
How would you do that?
Show up during the 7 years war and become fabulously wealthy "inventing" stuff like the telegraph, the steamship and the railroad establishing the infrastructure that can hold the empire together. Support Pitt the Elder politically.
ATTN: This is a Timmy like thread. :Embarrass:
I am pretty sure that Tyr doesn't know how to make any of those things or even begin to design them. For that matter, does anyone on here?
Quote from: Habbaku on January 12, 2012, 11:51:36 PM
I am pretty sure that Tyr doesn't know how to make any of those things or even begin to design them. For that matter, does anyone on here?
Surely there must be books and technical manuals that he can take back with him.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 12, 2012, 05:32:29 AM
I think there is more then to it then just saying "Build up industry in China", or showing up with an armful of blueprints. The biggest single thing you could take back to the 1930's to change the course of the war would be a transistor (and of course the knowledge of how it works and how to make one). Smaller, cheaper, and more robust electronics would make a huge difference in the war. In particular radios, but also radar and computers.
There are significant oil deposits in Manchuria that were easy to extract that were not found until the late 50s. If the Japanese find them in the early 30s that helps.
Quote from: Habbaku on January 12, 2012, 11:51:36 PM
I am pretty sure that Tyr doesn't know how to make any of those things or even begin to design them. For that matter, does anyone on here?
I know how to make hydroelectric dams and fractional distillation facilities for petroleum. Maybe. I mean, I'm gonna use slaves to build them, so it's okay if they collapse or explode.
I think I could possibly make a crude telegraph if I had a ready electricity source (the big hurdle) and a light filament (that's pretty easy). I mean, a telegraph is just shooting electricity down a wire in a pattern recognizable to the recipient, isn't it?
"Wait, 26 flashes for 'Z'? You didn't really think very hard about this did you?"
"Z is an uncommon letter."
Guys, I think if you manage to build a working time machine, then building a steam engine or a telegraph should be manageable.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 13, 2012, 12:20:52 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 12, 2012, 11:51:36 PM
I am pretty sure that Tyr doesn't know how to make any of those things or even begin to design them. For that matter, does anyone on here?
Surely there must be books and technical manuals that he can take back with him.
Yeah, it's a bit more tough then that. It's one thing to build a copy of a machine. It's another to fabricate the machines to mass produce the machine. Not to mention the chemical plants to make the chemical components needed to build a machine.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 13, 2012, 01:47:03 AM
Guys, I think if you manage to build a working time machine, then building a steam engine or a telegraph should be manageable.
Why is that?
Serious question?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 13, 2012, 01:47:03 AM
Guys, I think if you manage to build a working time machine, then building a steam engine or a telegraph should be manageable.
We didn't build one, Viking gave it to us.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 13, 2012, 02:10:40 AM
Serious question?
Yes. Simply because someone invents one thing doesn't mean they would be able to invent something completely different, especially in a place that doesn't have the materials required to build it. Or is it like Gilligan's Island and you build it out of coconuts?
Screw it. A time machine is already an impossible machine. If you build a time machine you should be able to build a perpetual motion machine, square circles and make diet soda taste as good as regular soda.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2012, 02:33:37 AM
make diet soda taste as good as regular soda.
That's already possible. Make the regular soda taste like crap a la Dr Pepper.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 13, 2012, 02:25:12 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 13, 2012, 01:47:03 AM
Guys, I think if you manage to build a working time machine, then building a steam engine or a telegraph should be manageable.
We didn't build one, Viking gave it to us.
I'm nice like that.
I would go back in time to the jewish tribal period, before the creation of the Kingdom.
And I would stay there.
Who knows, maybe I could become a Judge, and create a better Kingdom.
Shaul and Daavid fucked up the Kingdom from the very begining, by basing their power in their respective tribes, instead of using the federation system.
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 02:07:03 AM
I would go back in time to the jewish tribal period, before the creation of the Kingdom.
And I would stay there.
Who knows, maybe I could become a Judge, and create a better Kingdom.
Shaul and Daavid fucked up the Kingdom from the very begining, by basing their power in their respective tribes, instead of using the federation system.
And how would you do that?
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 02:07:03 AM
I would go back in time to the jewish tribal period, before the creation of the Kingdom.
And I would stay there.
Who knows, maybe I could become a Judge, and create a better Kingdom.
Shaul and Daavid fucked up the Kingdom from the very begining, by basing their power in their respective tribes, instead of using the federation system.
Hey, good to see you here again. I was afraid you'd left permanently.
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:23:19 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
Not viable at all unless you solve two problems:
a) How to resupply your army.
b) How to maintain control of it.
Quote from: Habbaku on January 12, 2012, 11:51:36 PM
I am pretty sure that Tyr doesn't know how to make any of those things or even begin to design them. For that matter, does anyone on here?
I'm sure a few of us remember our courses in thermodynamics, electromagnetism, chemistry and the like. Enough to make a huge difference anyway.
Quote from: Iormlund on January 15, 2012, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:23:19 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
Not viable at all unless you solve two problems:
a) How to resupply your army.
Time machine.
Quoteb) How to maintain control of it.
Rewards beyond human appreciation; what redneck with a gun thought he might be a strategos, or dux? They will be awash in material comfort and trim. No one will seek more.
If they do, then there's always the reign of terror.
Quote from: Iormlund on January 15, 2012, 12:16:29 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 12, 2012, 11:51:36 PM
I am pretty sure that Tyr doesn't know how to make any of those things or even begin to design them. For that matter, does anyone on here?
I'm sure a few of us remember our courses in thermodynamics, electromagnetism, chemistry and the like. Enough to make a huge difference anyway.
Depends when how far you go back, doesn't it? If you go back one hundred years, a few college courses in Physics and Chemistry aren't likely to be enough. Go back too far, and they probably won't do you that much good either. You may know what elements make up a chemical compound, but finding those materials in large quantities might be difficult in say 8th century Germany.
This is why I limit my time machine excursions to fucking the local populace.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2012, 03:20:20 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on January 15, 2012, 12:16:29 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 12, 2012, 11:51:36 PM
I am pretty sure that Tyr doesn't know how to make any of those things or even begin to design them. For that matter, does anyone on here?
I'm sure a few of us remember our courses in thermodynamics, electromagnetism, chemistry and the like. Enough to make a huge difference anyway.
Depends when how far you go back, doesn't it? If you go back one hundred years, a few college courses in Physics and Chemistry aren't likely to be enough. Go back too far, and they probably won't do you that much good either. You may know what elements make up a chemical compound, but finding those materials in large quantities might be difficult in say 8th century Germany.
I imagine if you have the requisite theoretical knowledge (and the ability to enforce that theoretical perspective, which you know to be true, but cannot prove on your own, by force of arms), you could get a lot out of old-time "experts."
Like, the germ theory of disease alone would almost immediately make whatever political unit you managed to carve out superior to any competitor. It doesn't require special medical knowledge, just a vague awareness of microbial life and the possible harm they can accomplish.
And anyway I think I'd be able to find coal in the Rhineland.
I imagine knowing the language and culture might be important as well.
But Ed has the right idea. Go back, and get some dinosaurs and release them in the streets of ancient Rome, toss an old set of car keys in with the burial at Sutton Hoo, or sell an Alarm clock in Sassanid Persia for a chest of gold.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2012, 04:25:52 PM
I imagine knowing the language and culture might be important as well.
I think you're forgetting you have a time machine. You can leave when you're ready.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2012, 04:25:52 PM
I imagine knowing the language and culture might be important as well.
But Ed has the right idea. Go back, and get some dinosaurs and release them in the streets of ancient Rome, toss an old set of car keys in with the burial at Sutton Hoo, or sell an Alarm clock in Sassanid Persia for a chest of gold.
How do you plan to control the dinosaurs?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 15, 2012, 04:59:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2012, 04:25:52 PM
I imagine knowing the language and culture might be important as well.
But Ed has the right idea. Go back, and get some dinosaurs and release them in the streets of ancient Rome, toss an old set of car keys in with the burial at Sutton Hoo, or sell an Alarm clock in Sassanid Persia for a chest of gold.
How do you plan to control the dinosaurs?
I was thinking I wouldn't need to control them. Just drop a net over them, then release in Rome
Really, with a Time Machine you can do pretty much anything. Wipe out the entire Army of Northern Virginia with a Sniper Rifle? Sure thing! Just keep popping in and out of the time line.
Quote from: Ideologue on January 15, 2012, 03:14:34 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on January 15, 2012, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:23:19 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
Not viable at all unless you solve two problems:
a) How to resupply your army.
Time machine.
Quoteb) How to maintain control of it.
Rewards beyond human appreciation; what redneck with a gun thought he might be a strategos, or dux? They will be awash in material comfort and trim. No one will seek more.
If they do, then there's always the reign of terror.
For some reason I thought time travel was a one-way ticket. If you can travel at will it loses a great part of the challenge.
In that case I would kick Paris in the nads and put Helen on all fours.
Quote from: Iormlund on January 15, 2012, 06:13:03 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 15, 2012, 03:14:34 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on January 15, 2012, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 12, 2012, 03:23:19 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has an actual, viable plan in case he ever gets a time machine.
Not viable at all unless you solve two problems:
a) How to resupply your army.
Time machine.
Quoteb) How to maintain control of it.
Rewards beyond human appreciation; what redneck with a gun thought he might be a strategos, or dux? They will be awash in material comfort and trim. No one will seek more.
If they do, then there's always the reign of terror.
For some reason I thought time travel was a one-way ticket. If you can travel at will it loses a great part of the challenge.
In that case I would kick Paris in the nads and put Helen on all fours.
You might be disappointed.
Helen would probably look ugly and hairy to our modern eyes.
Not to mention too fat and too old.
But if I had a time machine I would definitively go forward to the future, arm myself with the ultimate power-armor and laser weapons, then come back to the present and assrape Timmay with my power finger.
Gaaaaaaaaaaaay.
Yeah, I imagine Siege can shove his fingers up Tim's ass without space armor.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2012, 04:25:52 PM
I imagine knowing the language and culture might be important as well.
But Ed has the right idea. Go back, and get some dinosaurs and release them in the streets of ancient Rome, toss an old set of car keys in with the burial at Sutton Hoo, or sell an Alarm clock in Sassanid Persia for a chest of gold.
And ejaculate into the primordial ooze.
Quote from: Siege on January 15, 2012, 06:31:28 PM
You might be disappointed.
Helen would probably look ugly and hairy to our modern eyes.
Not to mention too fat and too old.
Interestingly, if you add up the dates--and bearing in mind that her, Klytemnestra, Castor, and Polydeuces form a quadruplet set--Helen winds up being like 40 or 50 by the time of Homer's Iliad. I worked it out once, but she had to be way older than Paris. She'd also had five children. :yuk: All of whom died except for Hermione, but I forget what happened to her (she was Menelaus' only child iirc). (Of course, according to some traditions she was also a demigoddess, daughter of Zeus like Polydeuces, so maybe that too fat/too old shit doesn't apply in the first place.)
Of course, the other part is the Spartan monarchy passed through her bloodline from Tyndareus, and was Menelaus' only by marriage/what seems to be in the context of what happened to Helen's sister and the fact that Tyndareus is still very much alive when Menelaus becomes king, very thinly veiled threat of force.
Ide, those myths don't have dates. They didn't really happen.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2012, 09:58:50 PM
Ide, those myths don't have dates. They didn't really happen.
Duh. But it's fun to connect them and see how they fit in the context of the whole.
The Greeks themselves couldn't agree upon a chronology for their heroes.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2012, 10:07:56 PM
The Greeks themselves couldn't agree upon a chronology for their heroes.
Not the point. The point is choosing the stories I like best, and which, for me, best form a coherent and interesting narrative. And the idea of the Atreides killing, raping, and threatening their way into hegemonic status, and the Trojan War being largely about neutralizing Helen and Paris as a threat to that hegemony, is coherent, plausible, and interesting to me. And I don't think it's too much to imagine a thruline to the Bronze Age stories of Helen and Klytemnestra trying to achieve their goals and ultimately losing to the villains. I mean, the Oresteia is literally about Agamemnon's line's ultimate triumph, a completely unjust matricide vindicated by the gods.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2012, 03:20:20 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on January 15, 2012, 12:16:29 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 12, 2012, 11:51:36 PM
I am pretty sure that Tyr doesn't know how to make any of those things or even begin to design them. For that matter, does anyone on here?
I'm sure a few of us remember our courses in thermodynamics, electromagnetism, chemistry and the like. Enough to make a huge difference anyway.
Depends when how far you go back, doesn't it? If you go back one hundred years, a few college courses in Physics and Chemistry aren't likely to be enough. Go back too far, and they probably won't do you that much good either. You may know what elements make up a chemical compound, but finding those materials in large quantities might be difficult in say 8th century Germany.
So 1750s Britain is just right :contract:
Uh, I guess. Depends on what you want to do. Also, you are about my age, so you probably haven't had a Small Pox inoculation.