Excellent article on Korean Life
http://www.economist.com/node/21541713
QuoteThe one-shot society
The system that has helped South Korea prosper is beginning to break down
Dec 17th 2011 | SEOUL | from the print edition
ON NOVEMBER 10th South Korea went silent. Aircraft were grounded. Offices opened late. Commuters stayed off the roads. The police stood by to deal with emergencies among the students who were taking their university entrance exams that day.
Every year the country comes to a halt on the day of the exams, for it is the most important day in most South Koreans' lives. The single set of multiple-choice tests that students take that day determines their future. Those who score well can enter one of Korea's best universities, which has traditionally guaranteed them a job-for-life as a high-flying bureaucrat or desk warrior at a chaebol (conglomerate). Those who score poorly are doomed to attend a lesser university, or no university at all. They will then have to join a less prestigious firm and, since switching employers is frowned upon, may be stuck there for the rest of their lives. Ticking a few wrong boxes, then, may mean that they are permanently locked out of the upper tier of Korean society.
Making so much depend on an exam has several advantages for Korea. It is efficient: a single set of tests identifies intelligent and diligent teenagers, and launches them into society's fast stream. It is meritocratic: poor but clever Koreans can rise to the top by studying very, very hard. The exam's importance prompts children to pay attention in class and parents to hound them about their homework; and that, in turn, ensures that Korea's educational results are the envy of the world. The country is pretty much the leading nation in the scoring system run by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). In 2009 it came fourth after Shanghai, Singapore and Hong Kong, but those are cities rather than full-sized countries.
Korea's well-educated, hard-working population has powered its economic miracle. The country has risen from barefoot to broadband since 1960, and last year, despite the global slowdown, its economy grew by 6.2%. In the age of the knowledge economy, education is economic destiny. So the system has had far-reaching and beneficial consequences.
Yet it also has huge costs. For a start, high school is hell. Two months before the day of his exams Kim Min-sung, a typical student, was monosyllabic and shy. All the joy seemed to have been squeezed out of him, to make room for facts. His classes lasted from 7am until 4pm, after which he headed straight for the library until midnight. He studied seven days a week. "You get used to it," he mumbled.
His parents have spent much of Min-sung's life worrying about his education. His father, a teacher, taught him how to manage his time: to draw up a plan and stick to it, so as to complete as much revision as possible without collapsing exhausted on the desk. His mother kept him fuelled with "delicious food" and urged him to "study more, but not too much".
Min-sung says he doesn't particularly want to go to university, but he feels "social pressure" to do so. He dreams of getting a job as an agent for sports stars, which would not obviously require a university degree. But he reluctantly accepts that in Korea, "You can't get [any] job without a degree."
Min-sung's happiest time was playing football with his friends during the lunch hour. Every child in his school dashes to the cafeteria when the bell goes and gulps down the noodles like a wolf in a hurry. The quicker they eat, the more precious minutes of freedom each day will contain.
A poll by CLSA, a stockbroker, found that 100% of Korean parents want their children to go to university. Such expectations can be stressful. In one survey a fifth of Korean middle and high school students said they felt tempted to commit suicide. In 2009 a tragic 202 actually did so. The suicide rate among young Koreans is high: 15 per 100,000 15-24-year-olds, compared with ten Americans, seven Chinese and five Britons. Min-sung's older sister, Kim Jieun, who took the exams a few years ago, recalls: "I thought of emigrating, I hated the education system so much."
As more and more students cram into universities, the returns to higher education are falling. Because all Korean parents want their children to go to university, most do. An incredible 63% of Koreans aged 25-34 are college graduates—the highest rate in the OECD. Since 1995 there has been a staggering 30 percentage-point increase in the proportion of Koreans who enter university to pursue academic degrees, to 71% in 2009.
This sounds great, but it is unlikely that such a high proportion of young Koreans will actually benefit from chasing an academic degree, as opposed to a vocational qualification. A survey in August found that, four months after leaving university, 40% of graduates had not yet found jobs.
Unemployment represents a poor return on what for most families is a huge financial sacrifice. Not only is college itself expensive; so is getting in. Parents will do anything to help their children pass the college entrance exam. Many send them to private crammers, known as hagwon, after school. Families in Seoul spend a whopping 16% of their income on private tuition.
Seoul children
Korea's rigid social model aggravates the nation's extreme demographic problems. Korean women have stopped having anywhere near enough babies to provide the country with the workforce it will need in the future.
Since Korean women started entering the labour force in large numbers, the opportunity costs of having children have risen sharply. The workplace makes few allowances for women who want to take a career break. If a woman drops off the career track for a couple of years, Korean firms are far less likely than Western ones to welcome her back. And if a firm does take back a working mother, she will face a stark choice: drop off the fast track or work long and inflexible hours.
Flexitime and working from home are frowned on. This makes it staggeringly hard to combine work and child care, especially since Korean mothers are expected to bear most of the responsibility for pushing their children to excel academically.
The direct costs of raising children who can pass that all-important exam are also hefty. Sending one child to a $1,000-a-month hagwon is hard enough. Paying for three is murder. Parents engage in an educational arms race. Those with only one child can afford higher fees, so they bid up the price of the best hagwon. This gives other parents yet another incentive to have fewer children.
Since 1960 the fertility rate in Korea has fallen faster than nearly anywhere on earth, from six children per woman to 1.15 in 2009. That is a recipe for demographic collapse. If each Korean woman has only one baby, each generation will be half as large as the one that came before. Korea will age and shrink into global irrelevance.
Small wonder the government is worried. President Lee Myung-bak talks of the need to create a "fair society". That means, among other things, changing attitudes to educational qualifications. He says he wants employers to start judging potential employees by criteria other than their alma mater. In September he promised that the government would start hiring more non-graduates. "Merit should count more than academic background," he said.
The forces for change
The president is also urging Korean firms to recruit people with a wider range of experiences. Some have agreed to do so. In September, for example, Daewoo Shipbuilding said it would start hiring high-school graduates and set up an institution to train them. But the managers who run big Korean companies are mostly from the generation in which academic background was everything, so they may be reluctant to change.
The government is trying to reduce the leg-up that private tuition gives to the children of the well-off. Since 2008 local authorities have been allowed to limit hagwon hours and fees. Freelance snoops, known as hagparazzi, visit hagwon with hidden cameras to catch them charging too much or breaking a local curfew. The hagparazzi are rewarded with a share of any fines imposed on errant educational establishments. Yet still the hagwon proliferate. By the government's count, there are nearly 100,000.
The other force for change is Korea's young people. Many are questioning whether the old rules about how to live one's life will make them happy. Kang Jeong-im, a musician, puts it bluntly: "I think it's difficult to live the way you want to in South Korea." High school was the worst, she recalls: "We were like memorising machines. Almost every day, I'd fall asleep at my desk. The teacher would shout at me or throw chalk."
Ms Kang made her parents proud by getting into Yonsei, one of Korea's leading universities. But once there, she rebelled. She hung out with radicals and read Marx and Foucault. She went on protest marches, waving a placard, inhaling tear gas and almost getting herself arrested. "I kinda enjoyed it," she says, "I felt I was doing something really important."
She learned to play the guitar. She wrote a thesis on female Korean rock musicians that involved a lot of "field studies": ie, going to concerts and talking to cool people. She even interviewed the singer of 3rd Line Butterfly, a group she loved.
She formed a band with a male friend. They played some gigs in small venues, but eventually he took a full-time job at a news agency and no longer had time for rocking. So Ms Kang started a solo career, writing songs and performing them herself, using the stage name "Flowing". She is working on an album, she says, and performing in clubs. Her parents are not exactly thrilled; they want her to find a respectable job and get married. Their friends and relatives ask: "What is your daughter doing?" and "Why do you let her live like this?"
Ms Kang cannot live on what she makes as a musician, so she takes temporary jobs. She is one of many. Among the young, the proportion of jobs that are part-time has exploded from 8% in 2000 to 23% in 2010; the proportion of workers under 25 on temporary contracts has leapt from zero to 28%. This is partly because cash-strapped companies are backing away from the old tradition of lifetime employment, but also because many young people do not want to be chained to the same desk for 30 years.
According to TNS, a market-research firm, Koreans are markedly more fed up with the companies they work for than people in other countries. Only half would recommend them as a good place to work, compared to three-quarters of TNS's global sample. Only 48% think they receive suitable recognition, as individuals, for their work, compared with 68% of workers in supposedly collectivist China. Only Japanese workers are more disgruntled.
Despite these gripes, 79% of Korean workers expect still to be working for the same employer in a year's time. TNS speculates that this attitude reflects the difficulty of switching employers rather than genuine loyalty; it talks of "captive" employees.
Such averages mask wide variation, of course. Some highflying Korean salarymen feel intensely loyal to their employers and are prepared to slave long hours to help them conquer new markets. But this inner circle is quite small: the chaebol employ only 10% of the workforce. And the rigid way that chaebol tend to seek talent—recruiting only from prestigious universities and promoting only from within—means that, as well as failing to get the best out of Korean women, they miss clever people who are not much good at exams and late developers whose talents blossom in their 20s or 30s. They also shunt older people into retirement when they still have much to offer. (The chaebol tend to promote by seniority, which sounds good for older employees but isn't. There are only a few jobs at the top, so when you reach the age at which you might become a senior manager, you are either promoted or pensioned off.)
Subversive ideas from abroad
It is still rare for a Korean who is clever enough to reach the top by the conventional route to choose a different one; but it is becoming less so. One fertile source of subversion is the Koreans who have studied overseas. Some 13% of Korean tertiary students study abroad, according to the OECD, a higher proportion than in any other rich country. In recent years, many have come home, not least because the American government, in a fit of self-destructive foolishness, made it much harder after September 11th 2001 for foreign students to work in America after they graduate. A survey by Vivek Wadhwa of Duke University found that most foreign students at American universities feared they would not be able to obtain a work visa. And since the application process is long and humiliating, many do not even bother to try. America's loss is Korea's (and India's, and China's) gain.
Returnees are typically bright, and less beholden to tradition than their stay-at-home peers. For example, Richard Choi, whose father was a globe-trotting manager for a chaebol, attended a British school in Hong Kong and learned about America's start-up culture while studying biomedical engineering at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.
Having returned to Korea, he has devised a business model in which customers receive store credits from merchants for recommending their products to their friends. "Let's say you think this pie is good," says Mr Choi, pointing at a chocolate confection your correspondent has just bought. "And you tell your friends about it [via a smartphone app developed by Mr Choi's company, Spoqa]. And they come to this café and spend money. Then you get store credits."
If this model will work anywhere, it will work in Seoul, figures Mr Choi. The Korean capital is densely populated and splendidly connected: nearly everyone with spare cash has a smartphone. And if it does not, he can probably get a good job, he thinks. But he has to hurry. Even with his skills, he reckons that no chaebol would hire him once he is over 30.
A few locally educated Koreans are also challenging the system. Charles Pyo, a young internet entrepreneur, borrowed his mother's credit card when he was 14 and started a business helping people set up websites. His parents did not approve; they thought he should be studying instead. But then they saw all the money coming in, and relented. He made $200,000 in three years.
He then won a place at Yonsei University. He took the exam like anyone else, but what really counted was his interview, in which he argued that he had exceptional talents. Korean universities have traditionally spurned interviews, but the government is now urging them to select many more of their students this way.
While at university, Mr Pyo teamed up with a former hacker, Kim Hyun-chul. (In his teens, Mr Kim set off cyber-terror alarm bells by infecting hundreds of thousands of computers with a virus that deleted files on his birthday. He was caught, but he was too young to send to prison.) Now a reformed character, he helped Mr Pyo start another company, Wizard Works, that supplies "widgets"—little packets of software that make corporate websites work better—and is about to start selling "cloud computing" apps for smartphones. Still only 25, Mr Pyo has now started yet another company, Rubicon Games, that designs online social games.
Mr Pyo says that what he does is much more fun than being a salaryman. But it is hard for him to recruit good staff. People assume that if you don't work for a chaebol, it must be because you are not bright enough, he gripes. "They say: 'Why should I work for you? You're not Samsung.'"
Mr Choi has the same problem. "Older people look at my business card and say: 'What's this?' Younger people admire the fact that I am doing something no one else is doing. But given the choice of working for me or Samsung, people are naturally inclined to go with a big company."
Mr Pyo believes that Korea would be a happier place if more people had the courage to strike out on their own. But talented students "care too much about other people's expectations," he sighs. "They don't want to fall behind their friends. They fear that if they do something different they might be viewed as a failure."
The Land of Miracles must loosen up
The Korean economic boom was built on hard work, benign demography (a bulge of working-age Koreans between 1970 and 1990) and plenty of opportunities to catch up with richer countries. But the world, and Korea, have changed.
Korea is rich, so it can no longer grow fast by copying others. It cannot remain dynamic with an ageing, shrinking workforce. It cannot become creative with a school system that stresses rote learning above thinking. And its people cannot realise their full potential in a society where they get only one shot at doing well in life, and it comes when they are still teenagers. To remain what one writer called "The Land of Miracles", Korea will have to loosen up, and allow many routes to success.
I recall reading a piece in a paper here a few weeks ago about the government cracking down on cram schools and trying to stop kids studying too late as it messed up their schooling.
Thats the trouble with East Asian students, they study hard, they don't study smart. They'll sleep through school because they were up until 2 am studying at home.
I wouldn't wish this system on anyone. Though the way college is 3 years and is far more like school is nice.
These exams...well the UK isn't so different. Everything comes down to a few exams there too.
China appears to be pretty similar as well, except here Party membership is considered the brass ring, as it apparently guarantees a good job, health benefits (extremely lacking here), and pension (also otherwise lacking).
Doesn't Mono have similar stories from Hong Kong?
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:47:26 AM
Doesn't Isn't Mono have a similar stories story from Hong Kong?
FYP
I have a Korean girl at work; total bimbo. I can't even make her do math.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 05:47:26 AM
Doesn't Mono have similar stories from Hong Kong?
Yeah, sort of school as an existential hell where your grades and exam scores determine your whole future, not your actual job performance and skills. It seems a typical thing in East Asia, or at least that's the stereotype.
Of course, some of this isn't confined to that part of the world. In pretty much any country with a reasonably good educational system, people want their children to go to college if possible, and more and more people are getting college degrees, which actually devalues getting a degree as far as actually learning anything that you'll need in your career is concerned, but makes it more important to get one, since employers can easily hire someone with a degree for all but the most menial positions.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 05, 2012, 06:28:12 AM
I have a Korean girl at work; total bimbo. I can't even make her do math.
Are you banging her?
Aww, TNS is one of my sister companies.
Quote from: dps on January 05, 2012, 02:32:32 PM
Of course, some of this isn't confined to that part of the world. In pretty much any country with a reasonably good educational system, people want their children to go to college if possible, and more and more people are getting college degrees, which actually devalues getting a degree as far as actually learning anything that you'll need in your career is concerned, but makes it more important to get one, since employers can easily hire someone with a degree for all but the most menial positions.
Yeah but getting into school here isn't as crazy.
Quote from: garbon on January 05, 2012, 02:44:08 PM
Quote from: dps on January 05, 2012, 02:32:32 PM
Of course, some of this isn't confined to that part of the world. In pretty much any country with a reasonably good educational system, people want their children to go to college if possible, and more and more people are getting college degrees, which actually devalues getting a degree as far as actually learning anything that you'll need in your career is concerned, but makes it more important to get one, since employers can easily hire someone with a degree for all but the most menial positions.
Yeah but getting into school here isn't as crazy.
No but it's crazy expensive.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 05, 2012, 02:46:05 PMNo but it's crazy expensive.
And how. I've got American classmates who are coming to London doing a two year LLB here because it's cheaper than law school in the US. Then they go back and take the New York bar.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 05, 2012, 02:35:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 05, 2012, 06:28:12 AM
I have a Korean girl at work; total bimbo. I can't even make her do math.
Are you banging her?
No. She's one of the fugly ones.
QuoteHe dreams of getting a job as an agent for sports stars
Lololololol.
Sorry, that was as far as I could get. Ah, good times.
If you replace "Korea" with "Hong Kong" in the article, it'll still be largely true.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 05, 2012, 02:46:05 PMNo but it's crazy expensive.
And how. I've got American classmates who are coming to London doing a two year LLB here because it's cheaper than law school in the US. Then they go back and take the New York bar.
And then what... :hmm:
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 05, 2012, 10:28:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 05, 2012, 02:46:05 PMNo but it's crazy expensive.
And how. I've got American classmates who are coming to London doing a two year LLB here because it's cheaper than law school in the US. Then they go back and take the New York bar.
And then what... :hmm:
Then they make salads.
The way I see it, the system is beginning to break down in HK as well. Mainly because the establishment can't keep its end of the bargain any more. The deal is, study crazily hard, get into the best stream in the best university, and you'll be rewarded with a stable, good office job.
But the increased number of university graduates, combined with the falling birth rate, globalization, and automation, mean the ratio of graduates and the number of available office jobs is now very unfavourable.
An additional factor is that, in the past, success is the only option. Your parents work and toil in the construction sites and factories. They borrow money and eat garbage so that the child has a chance to get to university. If the child get an office job, the whole family will be elevated to middle classhood. Now, the parents are already office workers themselves, who likely make a lot more than what the child can ever hope to make. The pressure for the child to succeed is far less, and a lot of people can afford to do what they want to do.
I read somewhere that on the mainland they're closing a lot of university programs because they're straight-up worthless.
I hate to say it, but yeah. Even a broken country is right two times a century, or something like that.
Quote from: Monoriu on January 05, 2012, 10:17:37 PM
If you replace "Korea" with "Hong Kong" in the article, it'll still be largely true.
At least in Korea if you're really talented at some thing they have a special school for it. Sports academies, music academies, etc.
Korea's big enough that it has its own pro leagues, music scene, etc.
Sounds like Hell.
Quote from: Ideologue on January 05, 2012, 11:17:35 PM
I read somewhere that on the mainland they're closing a lot of university programs because they're straight-up worthless.
I hate to say it, but yeah. Even a broken country is right two times a century, or something like that.
I haven't heard of any large scale closing of university programmes. I think that's about dealing with the schemes that are outright frauds.
Quote from: Habbaku on January 05, 2012, 11:28:23 PM
Sounds like Hell.
Pro sports and music sound like hell? :unsure:
Or vocational training sounds like hell?
I'm pretty sure neither really qualify...
Quote from: Monoriu on January 05, 2012, 11:29:05 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 05, 2012, 11:17:35 PM
I read somewhere that on the mainland they're closing a lot of university programs because they're straight-up worthless.
I hate to say it, but yeah. Even a broken country is right two times a century, or something like that.
I haven't heard of any large scale closing of university programmes. I think that's about dealing with the schemes that are outright frauds.
Then they're still well ahead of the ABA, let alone the Department of Education.
Yeah... it's worse than the article makes it sound.
It's technically 830-430 at most schools, but almost all of them attend extra classes that last until 10pm.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 05, 2012, 11:31:52 PM
Yeah... it's worse than the article makes it sound.
It's technically 830-430 at most schools, but almost all of them attend extra classes that last until 10pm.
That's really dumb. Have they never heard of diminishing returns?
It's so foolish and depressing how people will so enthusiastically race to the bottom. No wonder they kill themselves so much more often than us.
Also, fuck Britain with it's 5 in 100,000 rate. Goddamn easy-going limeys.
Quote from: Habbaku on January 05, 2012, 11:28:23 PM
Sounds like Hell.
Depends on how you look at it. The one shot exam model is important for social stability because it allows the poor a reasonable chance at upward social mobility. Sure, the rich still has an edge because they can afford expensive private tutoring. But at the end of the day, it is about ticking the right boxes anonymously. There is no gurantee that the tutoring will help. A poor kid who is hardworking enough has a reasonable shot.
I think I'd like it. I test well.
Quote from: Ideologue on January 05, 2012, 11:36:57 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 05, 2012, 11:31:52 PM
Yeah... it's worse than the article makes it sound.
It's technically 830-430 at most schools, but almost all of them attend extra classes that last until 10pm.
That's really dumb. Have they never heard of diminishing returns?
It's so foolish and depressing how people will so enthusiastically race to the bottom. No wonder they kill themselves so much more often than us.
Also, fuck Britain with it's 5 in 100,000 rate. Goddamn easy-going limeys.
To be fair, doing well in exams is not the only reason to send kids to the private tutors. They also act as babysitters because the parents often have to work long hours. Of course, it is also a convenient excuse if you don't want to see your troublesome kids :menace:
Oh, well that's only more depressing. GOOD WORK. :(
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 05, 2012, 11:25:18 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on January 05, 2012, 10:17:37 PM
If you replace "Korea" with "Hong Kong" in the article, it'll still be largely true.
At least in Korea if you're really talented at some thing they have a special school for it. Sports academies, music academies, etc.
Korea's big enough that it has its own pro leagues, music scene, etc.
Yeah, there are also differences between HK and Korea. In HK, it is very common and acceptable to change jobs and careers. Most graduates can find jobs quite easily, the only problem is that most of the entry level jobs don't pay well. In fact the pay is really lousy. Exam day (or in our case, fortnight) is nothing special.
Quote from: Ideologue on January 06, 2012, 01:19:41 AM
Oh, well that's only more depressing. GOOD WORK. :(
I don't know about Korea, but in HK, there isn't much in terms of publicly funded or subsidized child care. Parents often have to work very long hours, from 9-9. It is also illegal to leave young children alone at home. So unless you have grandparents or relatives who can look after the children, you have to send your children somewhere when they get off school. Might as well be private tutoring.
Huh. 9-9? Weren't you people run by Britain?
This kind of obsessive studying and social isolation leads to high school students who though being full grown physically with the behavior and maturity of middle school students.
Most of the girls at my school act like they're 12.
Quote from: Ideologue on January 06, 2012, 01:28:20 AM
Huh. 9-9? Weren't you people run by Britain?
I don't know where you get the idea that Brits are slackers. Some of the most zealous workaholics in the HK civil service are Brits (we still have a few of them). I know someone who jumped off the roof because of work pressure. His boss was a Brit.
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 01:36:22 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 06, 2012, 01:28:20 AM
Huh. 9-9? Weren't you people run by Britain?
I don't know where you get the idea that Brits are slackers. Some of the most zealous workaholics in the HK civil service are Brits (we still have a few of them). I know someone who jumped off the roof because of work pressure. His boss was a Brit.
I got the idea that Britain imposed 40 hour work weeks because they were civilized people who realized that laissez-faire capitalism would destroy the social fabric if it was permitted and also to spread jobs.*
Guess it didn't make it all the way around the world.
*And it wouldn't be a bad idea to mandate 35 hour work weeks now.
Quote from: Ideologue on January 06, 2012, 01:40:33 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 01:36:22 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 06, 2012, 01:28:20 AM
Huh. 9-9? Weren't you people run by Britain?
I don't know where you get the idea that Brits are slackers. Some of the most zealous workaholics in the HK civil service are Brits (we still have a few of them). I know someone who jumped off the roof because of work pressure. His boss was a Brit.
I got the idea that Britain imposed 40 hour work weeks because they were civilized people who realized that laissez-faire capitalism would destroy the social fabric if it was permitted and also to spread jobs.*
Guess it didn't make it all the way around the world.
*And it wouldn't be a bad idea to mandate 35 hour work weeks now.
You can't limit working hours by legal action. It may work in a factory or a mine but not in an office. The real problem is peer pressure. Officially, everybody who work beyond 6 do so voluntarily, and that's not going to change no matter how many hours the law says.
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 01:47:09 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 06, 2012, 01:40:33 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 01:36:22 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 06, 2012, 01:28:20 AM
Huh. 9-9? Weren't you people run by Britain?
I don't know where you get the idea that Brits are slackers. Some of the most zealous workaholics in the HK civil service are Brits (we still have a few of them). I know someone who jumped off the roof because of work pressure. His boss was a Brit.
I got the idea that Britain imposed 40 hour work weeks because they were civilized people who realized that laissez-faire capitalism would destroy the social fabric if it was permitted and also to spread jobs.*
Guess it didn't make it all the way around the world.
*And it wouldn't be a bad idea to mandate 35 hour work weeks now.
You can't limit working hours by legal action. It may work in a factory or a mine but not in an office. The real problem is peer pressure. Officially, everybody who work beyond 6 do so voluntarily, and that's not going to change no matter how many hours the law says.
Well, you dudes are probably salaried. Our civil servants get overtime.
Of course, you'll probably tell me your superiors and your own government would just flaunt the law entirely and make people work for free. :weep:
It is like this. You are the newcomer in the office. Very soon you discover that everybody leaves at 8 or 9 in the evening, or even later. Some even work on Sundays. When you have conversations with people, the topic of "so and so is a slacker, see, he leaves at 7! Hey, what time do you get off duty?" come up. You don't care about any of that, and leave early anyway. Then one morning, someone discreetly told you that your boss looked for you last night for an urgent task, but couldn't get hold of you. So he asked someone else to do it anyway. And from that day on, whenever you see your boss, it is no longer the same. And next week, your boss is going to write your appraisal report, and that someone else's. Then you get a phone call from HR saying there are rumours that you don't fit in the place well, and if they hear such rumours again they may have to "take action". Yeah, there maybe application forms available to apply for OT compensation, but the officer in charge tells you that no one has ever applied for the past 40 years, and he is not sure what'll happen to you if you do fill in the form. He is not discouraging you, he added.
See what I mean?
I really enjoy my 35 hour workweek by the way.
We have a magical thing called "Time and a half". If you work overtime, they have to pay you your wage plus 50%. Suddenly, the boss don't want your ass there till nine in the evening every night.
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 02:02:49 AM
It is like this. You are the newcomer in the office. Very soon you discover that everybody leaves at 8 or 9 in the evening, or even later. Some even work on Sundays. When you have conversations with people, the topic of "so and so is a slacker, see, he leaves at 7! Hey, what time do you get off duty?" come up. You don't care about any of that, and leave early anyway. Then one morning, someone discreetly told you that your boss looked for you last night for an urgent task, but couldn't get hold of you. So he asked someone else to do it anyway. And from that day on, whenever you see your boss, it is no longer the same. And next week, your boss is going to write your appraisal report, and that someone else's. Then you get a phone call from HR saying there are rumours that you don't fit in the place well, and if they hear such rumours again they may have to "take action". Yeah, there maybe application forms available to apply for OT compensation, but the officer in charge tells you that no one has ever applied for the past 40 years, and he is not sure what'll happen to you if you do fill in the form. He is not discouraging you, he added.
See what I mean?
Yes. It appears that you live in a corrupt society that has no respect for rule of law.
And I'm not saying this just to yell at you. I find it truly disturbing.
Quote from: Zanza on January 06, 2012, 02:09:45 AM
I really enjoy my 35 hour workweek by the way.
My workweek is about 25 hours. -_-
Quote from: Ideologue on January 06, 2012, 02:15:11 AM
Yes. It appears that you live in a corrupt society that has no respect for rule of law.
And I'm not saying this just to yell at you. I find it truly disturbing.
We have no laws that mandate working hours :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 02:02:49 AM
It is like this. You are the newcomer in the office. Very soon you discover that everybody leaves at 8 or 9 in the evening, or even later. Some even work on Sundays. When you have conversations with people, the topic of "so and so is a slacker, see, he leaves at 7! Hey, what time do you get off duty?" come up. You don't care about any of that, and leave early anyway. Then one morning, someone discreetly told you that your boss looked for you last night for an urgent task, but couldn't get hold of you. So he asked someone else to do it anyway. And from that day on, whenever you see your boss, it is no longer the same. And next week, your boss is going to write your appraisal report, and that someone else's. Then you get a phone call from HR saying there are rumours that you don't fit in the place well, and if they hear such rumours again they may have to "take action". Yeah, there maybe application forms available to apply for OT compensation, but the officer in charge tells you that no one has ever applied for the past 40 years, and he is not sure what'll happen to you if you do fill in the form. He is not discouraging you, he added.
See what I mean?
That's why in civilized countries, it's illegal to volunteer extra hours at work (unless you're an exempt professional). Or, more precisely, you can volunteer, but the employer is forced to pay you overtime, whether you asked for his permission or not. It is well understood in such countries that laws designed to improve working conditions can be subverted by "volunteering", so laws have to deal with that.
Quote from: DGuller on January 06, 2012, 02:38:38 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 02:02:49 AM
It is like this. You are the newcomer in the office. Very soon you discover that everybody leaves at 8 or 9 in the evening, or even later. Some even work on Sundays. When you have conversations with people, the topic of "so and so is a slacker, see, he leaves at 7! Hey, what time do you get off duty?" come up. You don't care about any of that, and leave early anyway. Then one morning, someone discreetly told you that your boss looked for you last night for an urgent task, but couldn't get hold of you. So he asked someone else to do it anyway. And from that day on, whenever you see your boss, it is no longer the same. And next week, your boss is going to write your appraisal report, and that someone else's. Then you get a phone call from HR saying there are rumours that you don't fit in the place well, and if they hear such rumours again they may have to "take action". Yeah, there maybe application forms available to apply for OT compensation, but the officer in charge tells you that no one has ever applied for the past 40 years, and he is not sure what'll happen to you if you do fill in the form. He is not discouraging you, he added.
See what I mean?
That's why in civilized countries, it's illegal to volunteer extra hours at work (unless you're an exempt professional). Or, more precisely, you can volunteer, but the employer is forced to pay you overtime, whether you asked for his permission or not. It is well understood in such countries that laws designed to improve working conditions can be subverted by "volunteering", so laws have to deal with that.
Right, unless the workers in question are salaried. But there are rules about who can be salaried. If you're just a clerk, you can't be put on salary just so your employer can avoid paying you overtime.
Quote from: DGuller on January 06, 2012, 02:38:38 AMThat's why in civilized countries, it's illegal to volunteer extra hours at work (unless you're an exempt professional). Or, more precisely, you can volunteer, but the employer is forced to pay you overtime, whether you asked for his permission or not. It is well understood in such countries that laws designed to improve working conditions can be subverted by "volunteering", so laws have to deal with that.
In this civilized country, most overtime is unpaid and not compensated by free time either.
Same here for the most part. Unless you're on an hourly rate you won't get overtime. Sometimes you'll get time in lieu, but that's more for working bank holidays or regularly having to work Saturday or Sunday (my old company had someone who worked a six day week because they had Saudi clients).
Over here you often get overtime until you're in management. And then you often have a bonus system which means you're not really working extra for nothing.
Quote from: DGuller on January 06, 2012, 02:38:38 AM
That's why in civilized countries, it's illegal to volunteer extra hours at work (unless you're an exempt professional). Or, more precisely, you can volunteer, but the employer is forced to pay you overtime, whether you asked for his permission or not. It is well understood in such countries that laws designed to improve working conditions can be subverted by "volunteering", so laws have to deal with that.
If we implement this system, I forsee massive cuts in salary, to be replaced by overtime compensation. So the result is the same: same level of salary, same level of overtime :lol:
Anyway, if not exams, then what? We need a way to differentiate, select and label the youths. Exam is one way. If we do away with one shot exams, there needs to be replacement methods of labelling people.
A cheaper method would be to hold a lottery.
How about multiple exams?
The grade that determines your university access here is based on the last two years of school with about a third from the final exams which are held within a week or so, another third from the grades you got in your major subjects over the two years and another third from the minor subjects over the two years.
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 01:36:22 AM
Some of the most zealous workaholics in the HK civil service are Brits (we still have a few of them). I know someone who jumped off the roof because of work pressure. His boss was a Brit.
Damn, I wish I had a bunch of chinks working for me, so I could learn that trick.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 06, 2012, 07:05:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 01:36:22 AM
Some of the most zealous workaholics in the HK civil service are Brits (we still have a few of them). I know someone who jumped off the roof because of work pressure. His boss was a Brit.
Damn, I wish I had a bunch of chinks working for me, so I could learn that trick.
Its not hard to jump off a building unless you decide to make a 2nd attempt.
Quote from: Zanza on January 06, 2012, 05:51:31 AM
How about multiple exams?
The grade that determines your university access here is based on the last two years of school with about a third from the final exams which are held within a week or so, another third from the grades you got in your major subjects over the two years and another third from the minor subjects over the two years.
The obvious problem is that (at least in HK), different schools have vastly different standards. Under this system, there is also an incentive for school teachers to overgrade their students.
Quote from: Ideologue on January 05, 2012, 10:31:26 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 05, 2012, 10:28:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 05, 2012, 02:46:05 PMNo but it's crazy expensive.
And how. I've got American classmates who are coming to London doing a two year LLB here because it's cheaper than law school in the US. Then they go back and take the New York bar.
And then what... :hmm:
Then they make salads.
No, that's just lawyers that don't take the bar.
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 01:25:57 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 06, 2012, 01:19:41 AM
Oh, well that's only more depressing. GOOD WORK. :(
I don't know about Korea, but in HK, there isn't much in terms of publicly funded or subsidized child care. Parents often have to work very long hours, from 9-9. It is also illegal to leave young children alone at home. So unless you have grandparents or relatives who can look after the children, you have to send your children somewhere when they get off school. Might as well be private tutoring.
From what I've heard, some parents like it when the teachers at my school scold and punish their kid, because they feel incapable of doing that themselves.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 05, 2012, 10:28:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 05, 2012, 02:46:05 PMNo but it's crazy expensive.
And how. I've got American classmates who are coming to London doing a two year LLB here because it's cheaper than law school in the US. Then they go back and take the New York bar.
And then what... :hmm:
Oh Lord knows. I don't spend a great deal of time with them. They're in their early twenties and wear Brooks Brothers casually... <_<
QuoteThe obvious problem is that (at least in HK), different schools have vastly different standards. Under this system, there is also an incentive for school teachers to overgrade their students.
In the UK schools don't mark their own exams. They're distributed through the system.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on January 06, 2012, 07:54:44 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 06, 2012, 07:05:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 01:36:22 AM
Some of the most zealous workaholics in the HK civil service are Brits (we still have a few of them). I know someone who jumped off the roof because of work pressure. His boss was a Brit.
Damn, I wish I had a bunch of chinks working for me, so I could learn that trick.
Its not hard to jump off a building unless you decide to make a 2nd attempt.
:lol: Limping back up the stairs would be a bitch.
Tell me about it. I actually did that once. Turns out, I'm bouncy.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 06, 2012, 09:35:50 PM
Tell me about it. I actually did that once. Turns out, I'm bouncy.
Must be the rubber underwear.
I probably should have found a taller building, but I sure as hell didn't want to climb those stairs again.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 06, 2012, 09:35:50 PM
Tell me about it. I actually did that once. Turns out, I'm bouncy.
:hug:
Quote from: Zanza on January 06, 2012, 04:45:19 AM
Quote from: DGuller on January 06, 2012, 02:38:38 AMThat's why in civilized countries, it's illegal to volunteer extra hours at work (unless you're an exempt professional). Or, more precisely, you can volunteer, but the employer is forced to pay you overtime, whether you asked for his permission or not. It is well understood in such countries that laws designed to improve working conditions can be subverted by "volunteering", so laws have to deal with that.
In this civilized country, most overtime is unpaid and not compensated by free time either.
Here the only people that get paid overtime are electricians, plumbers, welders, assembly line workers and the like.
Quote from: Neil on January 06, 2012, 08:34:55 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on January 05, 2012, 10:31:26 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 05, 2012, 10:28:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 05, 2012, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 05, 2012, 02:46:05 PMNo but it's crazy expensive.
And how. I've got American classmates who are coming to London doing a two year LLB here because it's cheaper than law school in the US. Then they go back and take the New York bar.
And then what... :hmm:
Then they make salads.
No, that's just lawyers that don't take the bar.
I feel my plan comes under unfair criticism simply because it failed. -_-
Also, your statement is untrue.
Quote from: mongers on January 06, 2012, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 06, 2012, 09:35:50 PM
Tell me about it. I actually did that once. Turns out, I'm bouncy.
:hug:
The plan would have worked better if I hadn't been scared of heights and willing to go find a taller building. So I settled on a shorter one. I know it doesn't make any fucking sense.
A guy did that here. Jumped 10 or so floors onto the roof of a lower building, then jumped off that one for the coup de grace.
Quote from: Monoriu on January 06, 2012, 08:05:23 AM
The obvious problem is that (at least in HK), different schools have vastly different standards. Under this system, there is also an incentive for school teachers to overgrade their students.
Overgrading doesn't work when you have (as in the US) a "school profile" that goes in with each application, so that grades are normalized by the university. A lower GPA can thus provide a higher score because it is from a school whose grades are lower overall.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 06, 2012, 10:50:11 PM
Quote from: mongers on January 06, 2012, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 06, 2012, 09:35:50 PM
Tell me about it. I actually did that once. Turns out, I'm bouncy.
:hug:
The plan would have worked better if I hadn't been scared of heights and willing to go find a taller building. So I settled on a shorter one. I know it doesn't make any fucking sense.
:D
Raz, I'd be in the same boat, I can't stand heights, so if in that situation wouldn't be able to do it anyway despite the intent.
I think I have a bit of what Churchill had, with his not liking to be near the edge of a train platform when a train was approaching.
Quote from: mongers on January 07, 2012, 12:58:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 06, 2012, 10:50:11 PM
Quote from: mongers on January 06, 2012, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 06, 2012, 09:35:50 PM
Tell me about it. I actually did that once. Turns out, I'm bouncy.
:hug:
The plan would have worked better if I hadn't been scared of heights and willing to go find a taller building. So I settled on a shorter one. I know it doesn't make any fucking sense.
:D
Raz, I'd be in the same boat, I can't stand heights, so if in that situation wouldn't be able to do it anyway despite the intent.
I think I have a bit of what Churchill had, with his not liking to be near the edge of a train platform when a train was approaching.
A BAC of .25?