Franco-Benlux-German Confederation FTW!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/09/us-eurozone-future-sarkozy-idUSTRE7A85VV20111109
QuoteFrench and Germans explore idea of smaller euro zone
By Julien Toyer and Annika Breidthardt
BRUSSELS | Wed Nov 9, 2011 4:58pm EST
(Reuters) - German and French officials have discussed plans for a radical overhaul of the European Union that would involve setting up a more integrated and potentially smaller euro zone, EU sources say.
"France and Germany have had intense consultations on this issue over the last months, at all levels," a senior EU official in Brussels told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the discussions.
"We need to move very cautiously, but the truth is that we need to establish exactly the list of those who don't want to be part of the club and those who simply cannot be part," the official said.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy gave some flavor of his thinking during an address to students in the eastern French city of Strasbourg on Tuesday, when he said a two-speed Europe -- the euro zone moving ahead more rapidly than all 27 countries in the EU -- was the only model for the future.
The discussions among senior policymakers in Paris, Berlin and Brussels raised the possibility of one or more countries leaving the euro zone while the remaining core pushes on toward deeper economic integration, including on tax and fiscal policy.
The change has been discussed on an "intellectual" level but had not moved to operational or technical discussions, the EU official said. A French finance ministry spokesman denied there was any project in the works to reduce the currency bloc's membership .
"There have been no conversations between French and German authorities at any level on decreasing the size of the euro zone," the spokesman said .
A radical overhaul of the European Union would be opposed by many members.
"This will unravel everything our forebears have painstakingly built up and repudiate all that they stood for in the past sixty years," one EU diplomat told Reuters."This will redraw the map geopolitically and give rise to new tensions. It could truly be the end of Europe as we know it."
In Berlin, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso warned about the economic costs of any splits in the euro zone. Germany's gross domestic product could contract and its economy would shed one million jobs, he said in a speech.
Barroso said any push toward deeper economic policy integration should not come at the price of creating new divisions among EU members.
"There cannot be peace and prosperity in the North or in the West of Europe, if there is no peace and prosperity in the South or in the East," he said.
To an extent the taboo on a country leaving the 17-member currency bloc was already broken at the G20 summit in Cannes last week, when German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Sarkozy both effectively said that Greece might have to drop out if the euro zone's long-term stability was to be maintained.
But the latest discussions among European officials point to a more fundamental re-evaluation of the 12-year-old currency project -- including which countries and what policies are needed to keep it strong and stable -- before Europe's debt crisis manages to break it apart.
In large part the aim is to reshape the currency bloc along the lines it was originally intended; strong, economically integrated countries sharing a currency, before nations such as Greece managed to get in.
"In doing this exercise, we will be very serious on the criteria that will be used as a benchmark to integrate and share our economic policies," the senior EU official said.
One senior German government official said it was a case of pruning the euro zone to make it stronger.
"You'll still call it the euro, but it will be fewer countries," he said, without identifying those that would have to drop out.
"We won't be able to speak with one voice and make the tough decisions in the euro zone as it is today. You can't have one country, one vote," he said, referring to rules that have made decision-making complex and slow, exacerbating the crisis.
Speaking in Berlin, Merkel reiterated a call for changes to be made to the EU treaty -- the laws which govern the European Union -- saying the situation was now so unpleasant that a rapid breakthrough was needed.
From Germany's point of view, altering the EU treaty would be an opportunity to reinforce euro zone integration and could potentially open a window to make the mooted changes to its make-up.
EU officials have told Reuters treaty change will be formally discussed at a summit in Brussels on December 9, with an 'intergovernmental conference', the process required to make alterations, potentially being convened in the new year, although multiple obstacles remain before such a step is taken.
ACCELERATION
While the two-speed Europe referred to by Sarkozy is already reality in many respects -- and a frustration for the likes of Poland, which hopes to join the euro zone -- the officials interviewed by Reuters spoke of a more formal process to create a two-tier structure and allow the smaller group to push on.
"This is something that has been in the air for some time, at least in high-level talks," said one EU diplomat. "The difference now is that some countries are moving forward very quickly ... The risk of a split, of a two-speed Europe, has never been so real."
In Sarkozy's vision, the euro zone would rapidly deepen its integration, including in sensitive areas such as corporate and personal taxation, while the remainder of the EU would be left as a "confederation", possibly expanding from 27 to 35 in the coming decade, with enlargement to the Balkans and beyond.
Within the euro zone, the critical need would be for core countries to coordinate their economic policies quickly so that defenses could be erected against the sovereign debt crisis.
"Intellectually speaking, I can see it happening in two movements: some technical arrangements in the next weeks to strengthen the euro zone governance, and some more fundamental changes in the coming months," the senior EU official said.
But he cautioned: "Practically speaking, we all know that the crisis may deepen and that the picture can change radically from one day to another."
France and Germany see themselves as the backbone of the euro zone and frequently promote initiatives that other euro zone countries reject. The idea of a core, pared-down euro zone is likely to be strongly opposed by the Netherlands and possibly Austria, although both would be potential members.
"This sort of thinking is not the direction we want to go in. We want to keep the euro zone as it is," said a non Franco-German euro zone diplomat.
Britain, which is adamantly outside the euro zone, is also opposed to any moves that would create a two-speed Europe, or institutionalize a process even if it is already under way.
"We must move together. The greatest danger we face is division," Britain's deputy prime minister, Nick Clegg, said during a visit to Brussels on Wednesday.
(Additional reporting by Robin Emmott and Luke Baker in Brussels, writing by Luke Baker, editing by Angus MacSwan)
They explore this every time the going gets tough. Remember when they were having trouble passing Lisbon without strongarming the lesser states?
don't see how Belgium could be part of it. Ruinous francophone-PS-policies have ruined the country. flanders on its own however would be very much eligible
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 12, 2011, 11:09:36 AM
don't see how Belgium could be part of it. Ruinous francophone-PS-policies have ruined the country. flanders on its own however would be very much eligible
Belgium could be the shitty part of the country that's required to devalue the Euro.
Quote from: Neil on November 12, 2011, 11:13:32 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 12, 2011, 11:09:36 AM
don't see how Belgium could be part of it. Ruinous francophone-PS-policies have ruined the country. flanders on its own however would be very much eligible
Belgium could be the shitty part of the country that's required to devalue the Euro.
seems a better chance that if the euro breaks up Belgium breaks up with it (and that be a good thing)
God I hate Flemingnesses :bleeding:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2011, 11:33:30 AM
God I hate Flemingnesses :bleeding:
Your repressed guilt over the fact that Britain created a disfunctional country to protect its own strategic interests is manifesting as hostility towards the Phlegms.
They tried this in the 1950's, but that eventually got out of hand.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2011, 11:33:30 AM
God I hate Flemingnesses :bleeding:
No kidding. It's not like Belgium is some mighty concept to begin with - so secessionists from it are extra crap.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 12, 2011, 12:19:23 PMYour repressed guilt over the fact that Britain created a disfunctional country to protect its own strategic interests is manifesting as hostility towards the Phlegms.
Belgium's just the most tedious dysfunctional country the British created. The Flems always seem the most whiny nationalists in the world. They make Scottish nationalists look positively chipper and well adjusted :bleeding:
All countries with French-speaking parts are retarded.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2011, 02:09:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 12, 2011, 12:19:23 PMYour repressed guilt over the fact that Britain created a disfunctional country to protect its own strategic interests is manifesting as hostility towards the Phlegms.
Belgium's just the most tedious dysfunctional country the British created. The Flems always seem the most whiny nationalists in the world. They make Scottish nationalists look positively chipper and well adjusted :bleeding:
On the other hand, the Flems are actually being wronged by Belgium, whereas the Scots are the beneficiaries of the UK.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2011, 02:09:04 PM
Belgium's just the most tedious dysfunctional country the British created.
:lol:
Probably right.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2011, 02:09:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 12, 2011, 12:19:23 PMYour repressed guilt over the fact that Britain created a disfunctional country to protect its own strategic interests is manifesting as hostility towards the Phlegms.
Belgium's just the most tedious dysfunctional country the British created.
:lol:
Pakistan?
Quote from: Queequeg on November 12, 2011, 03:56:27 PM
Pakistan?
Constant bloodshed is many things, but it's not tedious.
Always enjoyed my trips to Belgium though, great beer, great food, amenable company, a good place for the self-indulgent.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2011, 02:09:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 12, 2011, 12:19:23 PMYour repressed guilt over the fact that Britain created a disfunctional country to protect its own strategic interests is manifesting as hostility towards the Phlegms.
Belgium's just the most tedious dysfunctional country the British created. The Flems always seem the most whiny nationalists in the world. They make Scottish nationalists look positively chipper and well adjusted :bleeding:
that's because you're (apparently) unknowledgeble on the situation. Your problem, not ours. Same goes for marti on this issue
Actually, most of us don't care. You aren't going to go viper on us are you?
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 12, 2011, 04:38:27 PM
Always enjoyed my trips to Belgium though, great beer, great food, amenable company, a good place for the self-indulgent.
The best thing ever said about belgium is that it has french quality food in dutch sized portions.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2011, 02:09:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 12, 2011, 12:19:23 PMYour repressed guilt over the fact that Britain created a disfunctional country to protect its own strategic interests is manifesting as hostility towards the Phlegms.
Belgium's just the most tedious dysfunctional country the British created. The Flems always seem the most whiny nationalists in the world. They make Scottish nationalists look positively chipper and well adjusted :bleeding:
Maybe it's long past time to break up the nation into smaller states.
Why is it our problem? You talk like we should do something about it. Let them figure it out. It's their country. So long as they don't start annexing other people's countries, they can do what ever the hell they want.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2011, 02:09:04 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 12, 2011, 12:19:23 PMYour repressed guilt over the fact that Britain created a disfunctional country to protect its own strategic interests is manifesting as hostility towards the Phlegms.
Belgium's just the most tedious dysfunctional country the British created. The Flems always seem the most whiny nationalists in the world. They make Scottish nationalists look positively chipper and well adjusted :bleeding:
They both need to be subjected to Trident.
Use it before you lose it, UK.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 12, 2011, 05:19:43 PM
Actually, most of us don't care. You aren't going to go viper on us are you?
why bother? Either we get rid of teh francophones or the francophones get rid of us. In the first case there's two new countries, in the second case a people is wiped of the face of the planet (as has been the stated goal of francophone belgium since its foundation)
I say we make the Flamish part a seperate country, tack the French part onto France, and make Brussels, as EU capital and seat of NATO an international, self governed city.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2011, 02:24:11 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 12, 2011, 05:19:43 PM
Actually, most of us don't care. You aren't going to go viper on us are you?
why bother? Either we get rid of teh francophones or the francophones get rid of us. In the first case there's two new countries, in the second case a people is wiped of the face of the planet (as has been the stated goal of francophone belgium since its foundation)
This makes the Quebecois seps look reasonable and objective.
Do you live in Belgium or Srpska?
Why independence? Why not just give the French parts to France and the Dutch parts to the Netherlands?
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 12, 2011, 04:38:27 PM
Always enjoyed my trips to Belgium though, great beer, great food, amenable company, a good place for the self-indulgent.
I agree, but it's really just the Habsburg Netherlands. They also make lovely lace/doleys.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 13, 2011, 03:08:15 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2011, 02:24:11 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 12, 2011, 05:19:43 PM
Actually, most of us don't care. You aren't going to go viper on us are you?
why bother? Either we get rid of teh francophones or the francophones get rid of us. In the first case there's two new countries, in the second case a people is wiped of the face of the planet (as has been the stated goal of francophone belgium since its foundation)
This makes the Quebecois seps look reasonable and objective.
Do you live in Belgium or Srpska?
you're not too bright are you?
It's not the flemish making territorial claims on francofonistan just because there's a bunch of migrants there that refuse to live by the law of the land.
Quote from: Syt on November 13, 2011, 02:26:52 AM
I say we make the Flamish part a seperate country, tack the French part onto France, and make Brussels, as EU capital and seat of NATO an international, self governed city.
Brussels in 19 different communes, each with their mayor, citycouncil and all that comes with it. Good luck with convincing them that there should be only one mayor.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on November 13, 2011, 03:17:33 AM
Why independence? Why not just give the French parts to France and the Dutch parts to the Netherlands?
Probably because neither France nor the Netherlands would want their parts. :P
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2011, 03:19:29 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 13, 2011, 03:08:15 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2011, 02:24:11 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 12, 2011, 05:19:43 PM
Actually, most of us don't care. You aren't going to go viper on us are you?
why bother? Either we get rid of teh francophones or the francophones get rid of us. In the first case there's two new countries, in the second case a people is wiped of the face of the planet (as has been the stated goal of francophone belgium since its foundation)
This makes the Quebecois seps look reasonable and objective.
Do you live in Belgium or Srpska?
you're not too bright are you?
You're the genius equating the "plight" of Flems to a genocide. I'm just asking on what basis you make that claim.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on November 13, 2011, 03:17:33 AM
Why independence? Why not just give the French parts to France and the Dutch parts to the Netherlands?
Because the dutch don't deserve to have the flemish imposed upon them.
I guess I'll never understand Nationalism. These statements about wiping people out seem absurd to me.
Quote from: Syt on November 13, 2011, 02:26:52 AM
I say we make the Flamish part a seperate country, tack the French part onto France, and make Brussels, as EU capital and seat of NATO an international, self governed city.
You forgot the part going to Germany (Eupen-Malmedy) :contract:
Quote from: Razgovory on November 13, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
I guess I'll never understand Nationalism. These statements about wiping people out seem absurd to me.
You don't understand what it feels like to be part of a group, and what a wonderful thing that can be? That's terrible.
Split Belgium between France and the Netherlands.
Wallonia should not be. The Flems deserve their rightful territory- right down to Dunkirk, Rijsel et al!
Damn you history.
Quote from: Tyr on November 13, 2011, 10:46:50 AM
Wallonia should not be. The Flems deserve their rightful territory- right down to Dunkirk, Rijsel et al!
Damn you history.
Belgium can trade the Pas-de-Calais for Wallonia and TAG-switch from BEL to FLA.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 13, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
I guess I'll never understand Nationalism. These statements about wiping people out seem absurd to me.
The flems don't want to wipe anyone out. Basically what the flems want is this:
- respect for the linguistic integrity of the territory (i.e.: official language is dutch and nothing else. What you speak at home or on the streets is not our problem)
- respect for territorial integrty of Flanders (i.e.: no demands to annex any communities to Brussels just because francophone immigrants refuse to accept the fact that they have moved to Flanders), no demands for corridors running from Brussel to Wallonia)
- respect for the rights of the flemish in Brussel and in the facility-communities in Wallonia (i.e. the total and correct execution of the agreed upon laws, and not like it is now: flanders guaranteeing the rights of the francophones as is agreedupon and the francophones giving us the middlefinger (for example: the agreement that makes Brussel bilingual dates from the 1930s, in all those 80 years the francophones running the place have not even once succeeded in honoring the agreement))
- total and complete transparancy of the way money is used, especially in Brussel and Wallonia, so that we know where and with whom the money that goes from Flanders to Brussel and Wallonia (between 6 and 12 billion euros/year, depending on wether or not the payment on goverment-debt is counted too) is spent. This in order to break the spendthrift, nepotism, corruption, etc of the quasi-communist Parti Socialist. All of which are prerequisits to save socalled solidarity between the north and south of the country.
In short: reciprocity and respect for borders, culture and money. And not like it is now: francophones getting special rights in flanders without equal rights for flems in wallonia, no respect for the agreed upon borders (MR-FDF, CDH demanding an expansion of Brussel with PS and Ecolo agreeing with them), respect for culture (when you migrate you bear the consequences) and respect for the money (you do everything needed to make sure you don't need the money n the future instead of asking more and more and more).
In all this you will not find a claim from any mainstream flemish party to annex francophone communities or create corridors to places where lots of dutchspeaking people live.
The statement that one of the goals for Belgium is the eradication of the germanic element in the country is, however, fact:
"Les premiers principes d'une bonne administration sont basés sur l'emploi exclusif d'une seule langue et il est évident que la seule langue des Belges doit être le français. Pour arriver à ce résultat, il est nécessaire que toutes les fonctions, civiles et militaires, soient confiées à des Wallons et des Luxembourgeois; de cette manière, les Flamands, privés temporairement des avantages attachés à ces emplois, seront contraint d'apprendre le français et l'on détruira ainsi peu à peu l'élément germanique en Belgique", by Charles Rogier in 1832. Also from his mouth are the words: "La Belgique sera latine ou elle ne sera pas"
And the mentality hasn't changed one bit since.
Quote from: Ideologue on November 13, 2011, 05:34:58 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2011, 03:19:29 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on November 13, 2011, 03:08:15 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2011, 02:24:11 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 12, 2011, 05:19:43 PM
Actually, most of us don't care. You aren't going to go viper on us are you?
why bother? Either we get rid of teh francophones or the francophones get rid of us. In the first case there's two new countries, in the second case a people is wiped of the face of the planet (as has been the stated goal of francophone belgium since its foundation)
This makes the Quebecois seps look reasonable and objective.
Do you live in Belgium or Srpska?
you're not too bright are you?
You're the genius equating the "plight" of Flems to a genocide. I'm just asking on what basis you make that claim.
cultural genocide numbnut
Quote from: Neil on November 13, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 13, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
I guess I'll never understand Nationalism. These statements about wiping people out seem absurd to me.
You don't understand what it feels like to be part of a group, and what a wonderful thing that can be? That's terrible.
There is a difference between feeling like part of a group and wanting to exterminate all members of other groups.
Quote from: Viking on November 13, 2011, 06:20:34 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on November 13, 2011, 03:17:33 AM
Why independence? Why not just give the French parts to France and the Dutch parts to the Netherlands?
Because the dutch don't deserve to have the flemish imposed upon them.
the dutch would probably be rather happy to get flanders: two more big ports and a decent sized one all in the vicinity of Rotterdam. 't would make for the biggest port-region of the world in all likelyhood. a rich population, good economy...
the french with wallonia would get a region riddles with an unknown amount of debt (but at least 6 billion a year from latest guesstimates) with a population that has been suckling the PS-teat for decades.
----------
Anyways: should the euro split the chances that Belgium makes it into the new good euro are slim. too much debt, too many taxes, too few people working and a part of the country that resists all reforms needed. If, by some miracle we'd be allowed in, Belgium would be the Greece of the new monetary union. with all the inevitable misery that implies. I don't think the northen europeans are insane.
I don't think you'll find much sympathy for Wallonians here. Uppity francophones aren't popular, and nobody gets more bitchy about language then the Frenchies. That said, none of you should be speaking non-English languages anyways.
Quote from: garbon on November 13, 2011, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 13, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 13, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
I guess I'll never understand Nationalism. These statements about wiping people out seem absurd to me.
You don't understand what it feels like to be part of a group, and what a wonderful thing that can be? That's terrible.
There is a difference between feeling like part of a group and wanting to exterminate all members of other groups.
Nationalism doesn't always lead to a desire for genocide.
Quote from: Neil on November 13, 2011, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 13, 2011, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 13, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 13, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
I guess I'll never understand Nationalism. These statements about wiping people out seem absurd to me.
You don't understand what it feels like to be part of a group, and what a wonderful thing that can be? That's terrible.
There is a difference between feeling like part of a group and wanting to exterminate all members of other groups.
Nationalism doesn't always lead to a desire for genocide.
However, Raz was specifically speaking about an incident where it had. :contract:
Quote from: garbon on November 13, 2011, 02:08:22 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 13, 2011, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 13, 2011, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 13, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 13, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
I guess I'll never understand Nationalism. These statements about wiping people out seem absurd to me.
You don't understand what it feels like to be part of a group, and what a wonderful thing that can be? That's terrible.
There is a difference between feeling like part of a group and wanting to exterminate all members of other groups.
Nationalism doesn't always lead to a desire for genocide.
However, Raz was specifically speaking about an incident where it had. :contract:
He said that he didn't understand nationalism. If he had meant it to be interpreted as you seem to, he would have said that he didn't understand genocide.
Quote from: garbon on November 13, 2011, 02:08:22 PM
However, Raz was specifically speaking about an incident where it had. :contract:
I was specifically referring to a post, not an incident. I actually had no idea what the hell he was talking about. This is why I posted that I don't really understand Nationalism, since it apparently makes you say such bizarre things.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2011, 01:32:16 PM
cultural genocide numbnut
That's pussy genocide. It doesn't even have an agreed meaning. I don't know if your cause is sympathetic or not. I have no idea. But don't talk about "wiping us out" and "cultural genocide". It's silly.
Quote from: Neil on November 13, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 13, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
I guess I'll never understand Nationalism. These statements about wiping people out seem absurd to me.
You don't understand what it feels like to be part of a group, and what a wonderful thing that can be? That's terrible.
I rarely go outside. Of course it's terrible! Still I didn't know being part of group requires this much victimization.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 13, 2011, 03:55:59 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 13, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 13, 2011, 06:32:15 AM
I guess I'll never understand Nationalism. These statements about wiping people out seem absurd to me.
You don't understand what it feels like to be part of a group, and what a wonderful thing that can be? That's terrible.
I rarely go outside. Of course it's terrible! Still I didn't know being part of group requires this much victimization.
I would imagine it depends on whether your group is victimized or not.
Crazy Ivan didn't convince me that he was right, but he did convince me that Sheilbh was right: That was a pretty whiny whine! :lol:
Are all Flems addicted to over-the-top rhetoric and histrionics?
I loved how he wants to eradicate french use in Flanders, but wants special rights from Flems outside of Flanders :lol:
Also, quoting some dude from 200 years ago is not proof of anything dude. Chill out. If you want to separate, have a referendum, win, take your share of the debt and gtfo.
Quote from: Zoupa on November 14, 2011, 01:24:44 AM
Also, quoting some dude from 200 years ago is not proof of anything dude. Chill out. If you want to separate, have a referendum, win, take your share of the debt and gtfo.
Quoted For Truth. :contract:
Quote from: Zoupa on November 14, 2011, 01:24:44 AM
I loved how he wants to eradicate french use in Flanders, but wants special rights from Flems outside of Flanders :lol:
Not what I said but whatever, it's not like francophones are capable of guaranteeing the rights of the flems anyway. the last 180 years were proof of that.
Quote from: Zoupa on November 14, 2011, 01:24:44 AM
I loved how he wants to eradicate french use in Flanders, but wants special rights from Flems outside of Flanders :lol:
Also, quoting some dude from 200 years ago is not proof of anything dude. Chill out. If you want to separate, have a referendum, win, take your share of the debt and gtfo.
So it's similar to the what Quebecis want?
After all they went through to get in, hopefully Estonia won't be kicked out?
Such a decision would have to be made unianmous within the EU, which is not going to happen. Why would the other countries agree to this?
Quote from: grumbler on November 13, 2011, 05:27:46 PM
Crazy Ivan didn't convince me that he was right, but he did convince me that Sheilbh was right: That was a pretty whiny whine! :lol:
Are all Flems addicted to over-the-top rhetoric and histrionics?
The ones addicted to that kind of rhetoric just yell the loudest. :sleep:
Is the country dysfunctional? No. Or at least not more then our immediate neighbours.
Question: Where there any Indians in Flemland before the Flems arrived?
Quote from: Razgovory on November 14, 2011, 08:49:44 AM
Question: Where there any Indians in Flemland before the Flems arrived?
Yes, they were called Neanderthals if I'm not mistaken.
Quote from: BVN on November 14, 2011, 09:02:26 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 14, 2011, 08:49:44 AM
Question: Where there any Indians in Flemland before the Flems arrived?
Yes, they were called Neanderthals if I'm not mistaken.
I think the Belgae were closer.
Quote from: Zoupa on November 14, 2011, 01:24:44 AM
I loved how he wants to eradicate french use in Flanders, but wants special rights from Flems outside of Flanders :lol:
Also, quoting some dude from 200 years ago is not proof of anything dude. Chill out. If you want to separate, have a referendum, win, take your share of the debt and gtfo.
Well viper likes to reference incidents over 200 years ago...
ok?