I invite Languishites to a debate about the future of the Catholic Church. It seems to be facing a lot of troubles lately. The pedophilia scandals have shaken its foundations in most of Europe and in the USA (a catholic bishop has just apparently been indicted for not reporting a case of child abuse to the authorities - and that could open floodgates for more indictments like that). Spain, one of the most Catholic countries in Europe, has secularized very quickly and it looks like now Ireland and, as the last elections, Poland will follow the suit (the vocally anti-church party is the third force in the parliament, and it is for example more and more common for people to walk out during sermons which become hateful or politicized).
In short, the church in the West seems to be in its biggest crisis since the Enlightenment. So what do you think will happen next? Is it going to weather this crisis like it did before? Will we see some major overhaul of the doctrine? Or perhaps it will adopt the besieged fortress strategy and focus on a small number of hard core Catholics in Europe and, more importantly, in Latin America, Asia and Africa?
I think that there will be floating churches and priests will have lasers. Also virtual reality confession.
The Church will continue shedding believers in the 1st world and being outcompeted by more compelling forms of voodoo in the 3rd. They'll continue carrying on as they always have and covering their asses when they have to because they don't know what else to do.
The Church has no future. In a few decades old age will kill all but a testimonial amount of first world believers. All that will remain will be in backward places like the Philippines, Equatorial Guinea or America.
What you are describing is not indicative of a decline of the Church, but rather a decline of the West. A civilization whose citizens no longer believe in anything other then themselves is rapidly sliding toward apathy and eventual destruction.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2011, 08:15:34 AM
What you are describing is not indicative of a decline of the Church, but rather a decline of the West. A civilization whose citizens no longer believe in anything other then themselves is rapidly sliding toward apathy and eventual destruction.
The boring troll is boring.
Quote from: Martinus on October 15, 2011, 08:25:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2011, 08:15:34 AM
What you are describing is not indicative of a decline of the Church, but rather a decline of the West. A civilization whose citizens no longer believe in anything other then themselves is rapidly sliding toward apathy and eventual destruction.
The boring troll is boring.
He's right though.
meh... nothing's gonna change, the factors driving the CC to act like dicks today are unchanged, so the behavior will remain unchanged and the problems will remain unsolved. The members are vested so they will believe an bs excuse, the non-members are not vested so we think that reform is required. The dissatisfied members, while sympathetic and rightly aggrieved, are two few in number to amount to any threat to the foundation of the church itself.
As long as the church can maintain itself with cosmetic concessions and payouts to the abused they will continue. Nothing is going to happen until they are about to run out of money or out of priests. Note the former is much more likely than the latter as seen by the Anglican/Episcopalian church importing 3rd world priests to the empty parishes in England.
Quote from: Martinus on October 15, 2011, 08:25:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 15, 2011, 08:15:34 AM
What you are describing is not indicative of a decline of the Church, but rather a decline of the West. A civilization whose citizens no longer believe in anything other then themselves is rapidly sliding toward apathy and eventual destruction.
The boring troll is boring.
True, but you shouldn't have started a thread with such an obvious and dull troll. You have only yourself to blame.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 15, 2011, 07:54:22 AM
The Church has no future. In a few decades old age will kill all but a testimonial amount of first world believers. All that will remain will be in backward places like the Philippines, Equatorial Guinea or America.
I think there is a significant minority in society that will stay loyal to the church. It's general influence on society will decline a bit more, but it won't go away any time soon. It's survived two millenia after all.
I think there will be genuine and deep changes of attitude with regard to child abuse and the clergy in general. It's already happened among the laity and that's now being reflected in the clergy themselves. The deference and immediate trust has gone. I think the Irish Church's new policies have been acknowledged as very robust, even in the Cloyne Report, and I think that'll probably be adopted by the Church elsewhere.
At the same time I think on an individual basis the Pope will be a penitent Pontiff, much as JP2 was the pilgrim Pope. It seems that every trip Benedict's made he has impressed. The expectations are so low and the liberal, media elite so dismissive that his rather under-stated charm and sincerity work with the crowd in a way they didn't expect. In addition on every trip he's made he's spent time with victims of clerical abuse. I think that'll continue and that attempt at healing will be as major a part of his trips as canonisations were for JP2. Ireland will be the real test for that in 2012.
As to the Church itself I think we'll see Benedict's vision emerge in the next few years. It'll be a smaller, denser and more coherent church. I think there'll be less of an attempt to play or lead a political role because of the changes that have already taken place; the Church can't lead politically when deference is dead.
Quote from: Zanza on October 15, 2011, 09:15:03 AMI think there is a significant minority in society that will stay loyal to the church. It's general influence on society will decline a bit more, but it won't go away any time soon. It's survived two millenia after all.
Exactly. And I think Benedict's okay with that. Also I think Catholic countries are experiencing this decline more strongly because of the Church's former role. But in the UK the decline's bottomed out (I think the more conservative, more rigorous churches around are now also growing) and I think the same'll happen elsewhere. It won't be a terminal decline to nothing.
I suspect the Church will see a resurgence some time this century. People want to be part of something bigger then themselves and people want rules. A society that says "go off do your own thing, we don't care", is ultimately unrewarding.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 15, 2011, 09:24:18 AM
As to the Church itself I think we'll see Benedict's vision emerge in the next few years. It'll be a smaller, denser and more coherent church. I think there'll be less of an attempt to play or lead a political role because of the changes that have already taken place; the Church can't lead politically when deference is dead.
No. Just no. The Pope has been uttering criticisms at Spanish laws on abortion, gay marriage and adoption, euthanasia and so on for years. He is still trying to play the same role as ever. Only nobody pays attention anymore.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 15, 2011, 10:23:48 AMNo. Just no. The Pope has been uttering criticisms at Spanish laws on abortion, gay marriage and adoption, euthanasia and so on for years. He is still trying to play the same role as ever. Only nobody pays attention anymore.
Yeah the Church'll carry on speaking about these issues, I think more rigorously than used to be the case. But the idea of the clericalist state that used to exist in Ireland, and Spain and possibly Poland is dead. As you indicate no-one listens, I think the Church'll be more or less as it in England. You'll get articles and interviews with senior clerics on these sort of subjects and the occassional strop (gay adoption) but the sort of clerical arrogance and power that used to exist (certainly in Ireland and I'm projecting onto Spain and Poland) is over.
The amount of influence the Church can exert will be one of the most interesting things we will see in the near future.
Zapatero has called for early elections on November 20th, which the Socialist candidate is sure to lose, badly. The Populares have in the past introduced religion-motivated legislation such as the ban on clone therapy research. Will they use the economic debacle to overturn the recent abortion law? Gay marriage?
What's the PP like these days? I remember lots of despairing at the state of them in the early days of Zapatero. Did they reform (like the Tories) or just get lucky with the timing?
For what it's worth I think any government that's elected in the next few years, anywhere in the world, that looks like they're focusing on social or foreign policy issues rather than the economy will get destroyed at the next election.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 15, 2011, 11:39:45 AM
What's the PP like these days? I remember lots of despairing at the state of them in the early days of Zapatero. Did they reform (like the Tories) or just get lucky with the timing?
They'll win by shutting up and not saying anything inconvenient about what they really intend to do economically before the elections. They've shed the hard-core Aznaristas (Acebes, Trillo, Zaplana) from the frontlines in the last few years and Rajoy has been able to build his own team with new faces, so I don't think that they'll do anything really controversial in the social front during the next four years. They've talked about abolishing the last reform on abortion to take it back to its earlier version, though, but nobody in their right mind thinks that they'll, say, abolish gay marriage.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 15, 2011, 11:39:45 AM
What's the PP like these days? I remember lots of despairing at the state of them in the early days of Zapatero. Did they reform (like the Tories) or just get lucky with the timing?
For what it's worth I think any government that's elected in the next few years, anywhere in the world, that looks like they're focusing on social or foreign policy issues rather than the economy will get destroyed at the next election.
They got really lucky. The bubble started long before the Socialists came to power, during the last Popular government, and most of the local and regional administrations with high debt are Popular fiefdoms. But people don't quite grasp the concept of borrowing money and then having to repay. They think things were peachy then, bad now. So Aznar = good, Zapatero = bad.
Of course it doesn't help that Zapatero is indeed extremely incompetent.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 15, 2011, 12:07:12 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 15, 2011, 11:39:45 AM
What's the PP like these days? I remember lots of despairing at the state of them in the early days of Zapatero. Did they reform (like the Tories) or just get lucky with the timing?
For what it's worth I think any government that's elected in the next few years, anywhere in the world, that looks like they're focusing on social or foreign policy issues rather than the economy will get destroyed at the next election.
They got really lucky. The bubble started long before the Socialists came to power, during the last Popular government, and most of the local and regional administrations with high debt are Popular fiefdoms. But people don't quite grasp the concept of borrowing money and then having to repay. They think things were peachy then, bad now. So Aznar = good, Zapatero = bad.
Of course it doesn't help that Zapatero is indeed extremely incompetent.
But people are not going to vote for PP because they think deep down that they'll be better with the economy, but because they're in a "anybody but the PSOE" mentality.
It'll be interesting to see how many votes PP will get, they've hovered around the 10 million mark for the last three elections (10'3 mil in 2000, 9'7 in 2004 and 10'2 in 2008), and that has gotten them one absolute majority and two defeats. I don't think that they'll get much more than that, their voters tend to be very faithful and there's no real right wing alternative party. PP could run a dummy for president and still get a healthy amount of votes.
PSOE will, of course, plummet, the only question will be how much (Zapatero managed to get 11 million votes twice, the highest ever for them). I wonder if it'll be as catastrophic a collapse as the 2000 elections, when PP won an absolute majority because they got just 8 million votes. I guess that most of their voters will simply abstain or go to other smaller parties. Who knows, maybe IU will get its own parlamentary group again.
Quote from: Viking on October 15, 2011, 08:49:56 AM
As long as the church can maintain itself with cosmetic concessions and payouts to the abused they will continue. Nothing is going to happen until they are about to run out of money or out of priests. Note the former is much more likely than the latter as seen by the Anglican/Episcopalian church importing 3rd world priests to the empty parishes in England.
Don't you mean that the latter is more likely?
I've heard mutterings of an Anglican reconcilliation being on the cards....
But yes. As the world develops it will drop off along with other religions.
Unless the world starts going downhill, which is the way things are looking at the current moment....
Quote from: viper37 on October 15, 2011, 04:10:44 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 15, 2011, 08:44:04 AM
He's right though.
No.
The second sentence is, indeed, correct. Not believing in the reality of anything other than one's own existence is a severe mental disorder, and any society whose citizenry is all stricken with a severe mental disorder is on its way to destruction.
Raz is wrong that this describes "the West" though, unless he is talking about some fictional land.
Quote from: Tyr on October 16, 2011, 08:39:29 AM
But yes. As the world develops it will drop off along with other religions.
We'll see.
Quote from: Tyr on October 16, 2011, 08:39:29 AM
I've heard mutterings of an Anglican reconcilliation being on the cards....
But yes. As the world develops it will drop off along with other religions.
Unless the world starts going downhill, which is the way things are looking at the current moment....
Meh, that's been "on the cards" since Henry VIII.
It will continue at least until the time of Sister Miriam Godwinson. That much we know. Under her leadership everyone will DIAF though.
Quote from: grumbler on October 16, 2011, 09:28:39 AM
The second sentence is, indeed, correct. Not believing in the reality of anything other than one's own existence is a severe mental disorder, and any society whose citizenry is all stricken with a severe mental disorder is on its way to destruction.
I do not believe that a society where the citizens believe in an imaginary power greater than themselves to solve their problems is inherently superior to a society who understands the limits of reality.
Quote from: Tyr on October 16, 2011, 08:39:29 AM
But yes. As the world develops it will drop off along with other religions.
Unless the world starts going downhill, which is the way things are looking at the current moment....
The Church has long years to live yet. Governments may be shying away from "religious integration", but that doesn't mean the people have stop believing.
And we should not underestimate the 3rd world, especially as some of these countries are not so 3rd world anymore.
The Church suffers backlash for covering pedophilia in the pasts, but this will go away, in time. The Church has lived through worst. And it survived.
50 years from now, the Church will be in the exact same spot it is now.
The scandals are not the only, not even the main source of troubles for the Church. Their loss of influence predates the scandals.
At least over here you don't have to go 50 years into the future to see change. In a few decades most of their Spanish followers, not to mention priests and nuns, will be dead from old age. I can think of only one person my age who might attend mass or follow Catholic teachings. That's in a country where supposedly 94% of the population is Catholic according to the Church.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 15, 2011, 10:38:23 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 15, 2011, 10:23:48 AMNo. Just no. The Pope has been uttering criticisms at Spanish laws on abortion, gay marriage and adoption, euthanasia and so on for years. He is still trying to play the same role as ever. Only nobody pays attention anymore.
Yeah the Church'll carry on speaking about these issues, I think more rigorously than used to be the case. But the idea of the clericalist state that used to exist in Ireland, and Spain and possibly Poland is dead. As you indicate no-one listens, I think the Church'll be more or less as it in England. You'll get articles and interviews with senior clerics on these sort of subjects and the occassional strop (gay adoption) but the sort of clerical arrogance and power that used to exist (certainly in Ireland and I'm projecting onto Spain and Poland) is over.
WHen this thread first came up I didn't have time to respond.
I think this is where the Catholic Church is heading. Ultimately it is not going to be a "catholic" roman Catholic Church (i.e. universal) - it seems content to stake out its very specific set of beliefs, rather than try to be all things to all people. As uch it is going to wind up being much smaller, but more concentrated. It is surprisingly going the route of American evangelical churches, rather than following the route of Protestant or Orthodox state churches.
In the long run it makes the Catholic Church much more likely to survive as a meaningful institution (if they closed the Church of England would anybody notice?), but it will certainly be a different kind of church.
Quote from: viper37 on October 18, 2011, 03:36:29 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 16, 2011, 09:28:39 AM
The second sentence is, indeed, correct. Not believing in the reality of anything other than one's own existence is a severe mental disorder, and any society whose citizenry is all stricken with a severe mental disorder is on its way to destruction.
I do not believe that a society where the citizens believe in an imaginary power greater than themselves to solve their problems is inherently superior to a society who understands the limits of reality.
I thought you were a Nationalist.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 18, 2011, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 18, 2011, 03:36:29 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 16, 2011, 09:28:39 AM
The second sentence is, indeed, correct. Not believing in the reality of anything other than one's own existence is a severe mental disorder, and any society whose citizenry is all stricken with a severe mental disorder is on its way to destruction.
I do not believe that a society where the citizens believe in an imaginary power greater than themselves to solve their problems is inherently superior to a society who understands the limits of reality.
I thought you were a Nationalist.
:lol:
Quote from: Barrister on October 18, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
WHen this thread first came up I didn't have time to respond.
I think this is where the Catholic Church is heading. Ultimately it is not going to be a "catholic" roman Catholic Church (i.e. universal) - it seems content to stake out its very specific set of beliefs, rather than try to be all things to all people. As uch it is going to wind up being much smaller, but more concentrated. It is surprisingly going the route of American evangelical churches, rather than following the route of Protestant or Orthodox state churches.
In the long run it makes the Catholic Church much more likely to survive as a meaningful institution (if they closed the Church of England would anybody notice?), but it will certainly be a different kind of church.
I think much more people would notice if the CoE disappeared than if any of the hard core evangelical churches did. I think you, as someone not familiar with a catholic country, underestimate the gap that would emerge if the catholic church withdrew the way you describe - it would be a total and abject capitulation.
I also don't think, with the Holy See and vast wealth it has, it would be able to maintain the current "business model" if it became as you describe. Something would have to give. Since humans are ultimately a greedy bunch, I suspect it will rather adapt to please more people (e.g. gay civil partnerships yes, abortion no) than give up all it has accumulated over centuries.
I think what it may do is to become a sort of CoE for the masses (Catholicism-Lite) and then continue to attract the hard core minority with "Super Membership" Experience, such as Opus Dei and Knights of Columbus. I.e. it will continue doing what it has done for centuries.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 18, 2011, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 18, 2011, 03:36:29 PM
I do not believe that a society where the citizens believe in an imaginary power greater than themselves to solve their problems is inherently superior to a society who understands the limits of reality.
I thought you were a Nationalist.
:hug:
Quote from: Martinus on October 19, 2011, 04:42:17 AM
Quote from: Barrister on October 18, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
WHen this thread first came up I didn't have time to respond.
I think this is where the Catholic Church is heading. Ultimately it is not going to be a "catholic" roman Catholic Church (i.e. universal) - it seems content to stake out its very specific set of beliefs, rather than try to be all things to all people. As uch it is going to wind up being much smaller, but more concentrated. It is surprisingly going the route of American evangelical churches, rather than following the route of Protestant or Orthodox state churches.
In the long run it makes the Catholic Church much more likely to survive as a meaningful institution (if they closed the Church of England would anybody notice?), but it will certainly be a different kind of church.
I think much more people would notice if the CoE disappeared than if any of the hard core evangelical churches did. I think you, as someone not familiar with a catholic country, underestimate the gap that would emerge if the catholic church withdrew the way you describe - it would be a total and abject capitulation.
I also don't think, with the Holy See and vast wealth it has, it would be able to maintain the current "business model" if it became as you describe. Something would have to give. Since humans are ultimately a greedy bunch, I suspect it will rather adapt to please more people (e.g. gay civil partnerships yes, abortion no) than give up all it has accumulated over centuries.
I think what it may do is to become a sort of CoE for the masses (Catholicism-Lite) and then continue to attract the hard core minority with "Super Membership" Experience, such as Opus Dei and Knights of Columbus. I.e. it will continue doing what it has done for centuries.
What you describe is certainly an option for the RCC. It is, however, one that the RCC by all accounts is not following. :mellow: The Catholic Church is not adapting to please more people. It is quite adamant in its positions. There have been no changes in policy since Vatican II, and in tone it has if anything retreated into 'orthodoxy'.
The financial aspect is simply one that is impossible to know. The RCC is one of the most secretive organizations in the world when it comes to its finances. I know because I've been involved in lawsuits against it. It is possible however that a smaller but devoted membership base will give more donations than a larger base of less enthusiastic members.
When I say would anyone notice if the CoE closed up - it is of course a rhetorical device. But seriously - if it did close I suspect its parishioners could fairly rapidly find other denominations to attend (or would stop attending altogether and not really miss it). The RCC is not the same, at present. It is unique, and many of its current parishioners would not easily move to other denominations. However if the RCC followed the 'Catholicism lite' approach it risks becoming like the CoE.
As for "someone not familiar with a catholic country"... :yeahright:. As you well know, Canada is an immigrant country. There are no shortage of latin americans and philipinos here, who bring their devotion to the RCC to this country. I'll stack my experience up against yours any time in terms of ability to express an informed opinion. And I'll throw in my jesuit education as well.
Quote from: Barrister on October 19, 2011, 08:40:06 AM
As for "someone not familiar with a catholic country"... :yeahright:. As you well know, Canada is an immigrant country. There are no shortage of latin americans and philipinos here, who bring their devotion to the RCC to this country. I'll stack my experience up against yours any time in terms of ability to express an informed opinion. And I'll throw in my jesuit education as well.
Yeah, but I don't think that we've had the same institutional relationship with the RCC that the shitty countries in Europe had. Maybe Quebec back in the day, but I'm not sure about Manitoba. Even then, there was always the protestant hordes of Ontario and the west keeping the papists neutered on a national level. It's funny listening to the anti-Catholic attitudes of people my parents' age.
Quote from: Neil on October 19, 2011, 02:47:49 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 19, 2011, 08:40:06 AM
As for "someone not familiar with a catholic country"... :yeahright:. As you well know, Canada is an immigrant country. There are no shortage of latin americans and philipinos here, who bring their devotion to the RCC to this country. I'll stack my experience up against yours any time in terms of ability to express an informed opinion. And I'll throw in my jesuit education as well.
Yeah, but I don't think that we've had the same institutional relationship with the RCC that the shitty countries in Europe had. Maybe Quebec back in the day, but I'm not sure about Manitoba. Even then, there was always the protestant hordes of Ontario and the west keeping the papists neutered on a national level. It's funny listening to the anti-Catholic attitudes of people my parents' age.
Your parents age?
Anti-catholic attitudes are more like my grandparents age.
And it's not as if Britain has had any institutional relationship with the RCC for a few hundred years...
Quote from: Barrister on October 19, 2011, 02:49:55 PM
Your parents age?
Anti-catholic attitudes are more like my grandparents age.
And it's not as if Britain has had any institutional relationship with the RCC for a few hundred years...
I dunno. I can think of some people in their 60s who grew up in areas with Catholics who aren't too fond of the Church.
Quote from: Barrister on October 19, 2011, 02:49:55 PM
Your parents age?
Anti-catholic attitudes are more like my grandparents age.
And it's not as if Britain has had any institutional relationship with the RCC for a few hundred years...
Well besides murdering their followers.
Quote from: Barrister on October 18, 2011, 04:29:28 PMIn the long run it makes the Catholic Church much more likely to survive as a meaningful institution (if they closed the Church of England would anybody notice?), but it will certainly be a different kind of church.
I think the CofE's one of those things that we wouldn't know what we had until we lost it. And it's still weirdly important in rural England. The one in my parent's village (incidentally Cardinal Reginald Pole's old parish) is like the pub, the duck race and the carnival an imporant part of the community's life.
QuoteBut seriously - if it did close I suspect its parishioners could fairly rapidly find other denominations to attend (or would stop attending altogether and not really miss it).
Not true especially with the CofE. They're there because they're not religious. If it went they'd just have slightly more lonely, sadder social lives. Catholics and the rest are believers.
I also don't think Marti's right.
First of all as BBoy says there's been no major shift in doctrine since Vatican II. I think we'll see a 'liberalisation' (this is the wrong word) in terms of policy and procedure. So there'll be more external oversight, more roles for the laity and, as I said, I think an end to clericalist arrogance. But I don't think we'll see doctrine move an inch when it hasn't over the past 40 years. And I think in doctrinal terms Vatican II is overstated.
Secondly I'd say that I think Benedict and the conservative wing have a point when they say 'Catholicism-lite' has failed. They've tried content free Catholicism built around JPII's enormous charisma for a while and it hasn't worked. Certainly in this country we're seeing a revival of the Latin mass and the central role for sacred music (as opposed to a guitar) and it is the conservative parishes and dioceses that are thriving. The ones that are more liberal in outlook (on everything not just politically controversial parts of doctrine) that are declining..
Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society. I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion. I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached. Very much a City of God.
All of those trends will, I think, continue and are being strengthened by Benedict's appointments at a diocesan level. I believe in the US he's had an especially strong impact filling up dioceses.
Quote from: viper37 on October 18, 2011, 03:36:29 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 16, 2011, 09:28:39 AM
The second sentence is, indeed, correct. Not believing in the reality of anything other than one's own existence is a severe mental disorder, and any society whose citizenry is all stricken with a severe mental disorder is on its way to destruction.
I do not believe that a society where the citizens believe in an imaginary power greater than themselves to solve their problems is inherently superior to a society who understands the limits of reality.
Ah! A non-sequitur contest! Excellent.
My response: I believe that the secret to a good pot of coffee is in getting the right proportions of water and ground coffee; one rounded tablespoon of ground coffee per 6 ounces of water.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 18, 2011, 04:19:27 PM
At least over here you don't have to go 50 years into the future to see change. In a few decades most of their Spanish followers, not to mention priests and nuns, will be dead from old age. I can think of only one person my age who might attend mass or follow Catholic teachings. That's in a country where supposedly 94% of the population is Catholic according to the Church.
I've seen the same here, yet, nowadays, more&more youths ask to be married in a Church and have their children baptised.
The Church might change, it might scale back a little in 1st world country, but it's still gonna be an important religion 50 years from now, at about the same spot it is right now.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 18, 2011, 05:13:09 PM
I thought you were a Nationalist.
how is that inconsistant?
Quote from: grumbler on October 19, 2011, 06:21:57 PM
My response: I believe that the secret to a good pot of coffee is in getting the right proportions of water and ground coffee; one rounded tablespoon of ground coffee per 6 ounces of water.
I don't speak Imperial, only Metric :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 19, 2011, 05:35:32 PM
Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society. I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion. I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached. Very much a City of God.
I think you may well be right. I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely. The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.
Quote from: viper37 on October 19, 2011, 06:28:44 PM
I don't speak Imperial, only Metric :P
And that's why you can't get good coffee in Canada (though great espresso).
Quote from: viper37 on October 19, 2011, 06:26:14 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 18, 2011, 05:13:09 PM
I thought you were a Nationalist.
how is that inconsistant?
A nation is an imaginary greater power. Nations exist entirely in the human mind.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 19, 2011, 06:54:45 PMA nation is an imaginary greater power. Nations exist entirely in the human mind.
I think you can say nations are human constructs but they don't exist entirely in the mind. Languages, history, culture and all the other things that create a nation are real external things. Far more so than, say, liberty or fraternity which are much-disputed human concepts.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 19, 2011, 06:56:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 19, 2011, 06:54:45 PMA nation is an imaginary greater power. Nations exist entirely in the human mind.
I think you can say nations are human constructs but they don't exist entirely in the mind. Languages, history, culture and all the other things that create a nation are real external things. Far more so than, say, liberty or fraternity which are much-disputed human concepts.
Something can exist only in the human mind but still be real. I'd say language, history and culture exist entirely in the human mind. They may leave artifacts in the observable world, but with out a human mind they aren't a language or a history or a culture. A book becomes nothing more then paper and ink. A historical battlefield is but a field with shards of metal and corpses. A Christmas tree is nothing but a dead tree with glass and plastic strung on it. Somethings do exist in the external world, for instance math. Two Hydrogen atoms combine with one oxygen whether a human being is there to interpret it or not.
There's always the Prophecy of the Popes. So if the next one is named Peter, we'll know it'll end badly.
Quote from: grumbler on October 19, 2011, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 19, 2011, 05:35:32 PM
Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society. I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion. I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached. Very much a City of God.
I think you may well be right. I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely. The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.
seems there's the danger that instead of a refuge of runaway modernity it becomes a group of "refugees" running away from modernity. And we don't need more Amish-type groups. But we're not there yet, might never even get there.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 22, 2011, 10:16:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 19, 2011, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 19, 2011, 05:35:32 PM
Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society. I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion. I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached. Very much a City of God.
I think you may well be right. I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely. The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.
seems there's the danger that instead of a refuge of runaway modernity it becomes a group of "refugees" running away from modernity. And we don't need more Amish-type groups. But we're not there yet, might never even get there.
Do you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole. I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.
As a comment to a lot of the previous posts, especially by Sheilbh and BB, I think you guys are forgetting the fact that the catholic church has its own mini-state in the middle of Europe, and also has a lot of temporal influence in catholic countries. I don't think the withdrawal from the society that you describe will allow them to keep these holdings - in terms of manpower, finances and politics, the liberalizing EU countries will simply not tolerate its continued existence, if it grows more and more conservative and out of touch with the rest of Europe.
For example I can see catholic countries nationalizing historical monuments that are now in the hands of the catholic church, if for example the catholic church grows more conservative and restricts access for the general public to such places.
Quote from: dps on October 22, 2011, 04:37:31 PMDo you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole. I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.
Crazy Ivan is a Belgian. Their king is catholic, catholic church plays a huge role in public life (even if it is more ceremonious now). Again, people from non-catholic countries should take extra care because you are simply not getting it if you think an ultra-conservative catholic church in, say, Belgium, is comparable to amish communities.
To illustrate what Martinus is saying, the government pays here for Catholic religious education in public schools.
Quote from: Martinus on October 22, 2011, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: dps on October 22, 2011, 04:37:31 PMDo you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole. I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.
Crazy Ivan is a Belgian. Their king is catholic, catholic church plays a huge role in public life (even if it is more ceremonious now). Again, people from non-catholic countries should take extra care because you are simply not getting it if you think an ultra-conservative catholic church in, say, Belgium, is comparable to amish communities.
I'm not comparing Catholics, conservative or otherwise, to the Amish. He specifically mentioned that "we don't need more Amish-type groups" and I was trying to find what problem he has with the Amish (or similar groups).
I wouldn't take Marty's word on this, or anything.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 22, 2011, 04:59:07 PM
To illustrate what Martinus is saying, the government pays here for Catholic religious education in public schools.
Our government not only pays for religious education (protestant or catholic), but all the higher-ranking clerics (bishops etc.) are paid by the state. And then there is the church tax that is levied by our IRS. And because many social instiutions such as hospitals, schools, kindergartens etc. are operated by the churches, they get a lot of state money for that too.
And I would argue that Germany is already considerably more secularized than Poland or Spain, so the process of secularization does not necessarily mean that the church will lose all its perks.
Quote from: Martinus on October 22, 2011, 04:51:13 PM
As a comment to a lot of the previous posts, especially by Sheilbh and BB, I think you guys are forgetting the fact that the catholic church has its own mini-state in the middle of Europe, and also has a lot of temporal influence in catholic countries. I don't think the withdrawal from the society that you describe will allow them to keep these holdings - in terms of manpower, finances and politics, the liberalizing EU countries will simply not tolerate its continued existence, if it grows more and more conservative and out of touch with the rest of Europe.
I don't think the Church'll withdraw from society I think they'll give up clericalist power - because society's given that up already - and they'll stand aside modern society. They won't join in with gay marriage or adoption just because society's liberalising. They'll be on the outside because of their own values. I think this is the vision Benedict and the Church has of itself. That it will stand, as it always has, unmoved by trends or fads. I think that any socially liberal Catholicism will end up looking like liberation theologians do now.
I'd be surprised if any state would think about expropriating their property just because they've different views. I don't know what you mean about the national monuments in Poland. I don't know what they are and I don't know how or why the Church could restrict access to them.
QuoteTo illustrate what Martinus is saying, the government pays here for Catholic religious education in public schools.
Same. And we've got thousands of publically funded Catholic schools, hospices and social care groups. That all also exists in Ireland - though some groups have been removed from education entirely. But with education I'd just say it depends on the reputation of Catholic schools or Catholic education in your countries. If they're seen as somehow better then you'll have an enormous fight to change them because you're messing with people's education. I doubt there'll ever be an end to state funding for faith schools over here, or assembly with the local Priest/Vicar. But even in France one of the biggest crises of Mitterrand's Presidency was due to an attempt to limit state financing for kids to go to private Catholic schools.
I think Belgium and Ireland will be the most interesting to watch because they're countries that have gone through the same liberalisation of attitudes without dismantling the Church. But since then they've had child abuse scandals that have, as far as I can see, made the Church be held in contempt. What happens there will be telling.
Quote from: dps on October 22, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 22, 2011, 10:16:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 19, 2011, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 19, 2011, 05:35:32 PM
Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society. I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion. I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached. Very much a City of God.
I think you may well be right. I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely. The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.
seems there's the danger that instead of a refuge of runaway modernity it becomes a group of "refugees" running away from modernity. And we don't need more Amish-type groups. But we're not there yet, might never even get there.
Do you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole. I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.
As a group the Amish aren't all that harmful. The mindset however is, and is not restricted to the amish alone. It's present everywhere and it does it's best to halt the march of progress.
Quote from: Martinus on October 22, 2011, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: dps on October 22, 2011, 04:37:31 PMDo you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole. I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.
Crazy Ivan is a Belgian. Their king is catholic, catholic church plays a huge role in public life (even if it is more ceremonious now). Again, people from non-catholic countries should take extra care because you are simply not getting it if you think an ultra-conservative catholic church in, say, Belgium, is comparable to amish communities.
1) I'm flemish
2) the influence of the church on the general populace in belgium has been all but wiped out in the past 30 to 40 years.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2011, 06:30:46 AM
Quote from: dps on October 22, 2011, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 22, 2011, 10:16:28 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 19, 2011, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 19, 2011, 05:35:32 PM
Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society. I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion. I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached. Very much a City of God.
I think you may well be right. I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely. The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.
seems there's the danger that instead of a refuge of runaway modernity it becomes a group of "refugees" running away from modernity. And we don't need more Amish-type groups. But we're not there yet, might never even get there.
Do you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole. I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.
As a group the Amish aren't all that harmful. The mindset however is, and is not restricted to the amish alone. It's present everywhere and it does it's best to halt the march of progress.
The Amish (at least in America) don't try to keep others from progressing. They just want progress to leave them behind.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 19, 2011, 06:56:33 PM
I think you can say nations are human constructs but they don't exist entirely in the mind. Languages, history, culture and all the other things that create a nation are real external things. Far more so than, say, liberty or fraternity which are much-disputed human concepts.
Agreed. Within the ambiguous limits of definitions, nations do exist (though identification with one is as subjective as any identification). States are the pure legal constructs.
Quote from: dps on October 23, 2011, 04:47:04 PM
The Amish (at least in America) don't try to keep others from progressing. They just want progress to leave them behind.
And, even then, only some kinds of progress. They don't eschew modern medicine, for example, and cooperate in medical studies that rely on their extensive and accurate family histories. As scientific knowledge of inheritable disabilities has advanced, they have accelerated their efforts to broaden the pool of eligible Amish suitors and encourage their children to marry Amish from different communities.
Their primary objection is to any kind of progress that will reduce self-reliance and community. One can argue that they have gone overboard with this, but I don't think one can argue that they do so blindly.
I'd assume the future church will have lasers and a flying Space Pope.
Is it flying if it's in space?
Floating then.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 23, 2011, 06:45:44 PM
I'd assume the future church will have lasers and a flying Space Pope.
*cough*
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 23, 2011, 06:45:44 PM
I'd assume the future church will have lasers and a flying Space Pope.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scottdstrader.com%2Fblog%2Fresources%2Fthe-space-pope.png&hash=4c9b24c148e6c5dd50113af3c76f0348d2e4d374)
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 19, 2011, 06:56:33 PM
Languages, history, culture and all the other things that create a nation are real external things.
Languages, history, and culture are all made up stuff. Most of human existance and the things we concern oursevles with are made up stuff. It is the power and magic of humanity that we can make imaginary things seem as real as sticks and stones.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2011, 06:33:08 AM
1) I'm flemish
Good because I am not an American I am a Texan.
Quote from: Valmy on October 24, 2011, 08:37:18 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2011, 06:33:08 AM
1) I'm flemish
Good because I am not an American.
Your inferiority has long caused us to suspect that.
QuoteLanguages, history, and culture are all made up stuff. Most of human existance and the things we concern oursevles with are made up stuff. It is the power and magic of humanity that we can make imaginary things seem as real as sticks and stones.
Languages, at least, have an external reality relative to their users. Sure, they're a construct, but so's an automobile, and an automobile has an external reality relative to its driver. I'd argue the same for history and culture, though with history, we have to allow for the possibility that it was entirely fictional. (No doubt parts of what is popularly viewed as history, such as the story about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, is fiction, and other parts are distorted and/or speculative, but the main thrust of historical narrative, is, I think, reasonably accurate.)
Quote from: dps on October 24, 2011, 08:53:10 AM
Languages, at least, have an external reality relative to their users. Sure, they're a construct, but so's an automobile, and an automobile has an external reality relative to its driver. I'd argue the same for history and culture, though with history, we have to allow for the possibility that it was entirely fictional. (No doubt parts of what is popularly viewed as history, such as the story about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, is fiction, and other parts are distorted and/or speculative, but the main thrust of historical narrative, is, I think, reasonably accurate.)
That was my entire point. We take these concepts we make up and when enough people agree that they are real they become as real as any material object. I mean at the begining a language is just noise (and symbols) but to people who agree on what the sounds represent they are this incredibly powerful thing.
QuoteYour inferiority has long caused us to suspect that.
This is not the first time you come off a bit hostile to me. Do you just not like me? Should I continue to talk to you or is this just you joking around with me?
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 23, 2011, 06:45:44 PM
I'd assume the future church will have lasers and a flying Space Pope.
That would only be cool if he has a Captain Pike robo-wheelchair.
Quote from: Valmy on October 24, 2011, 09:12:45 AM
Quote from: dps on October 24, 2011, 08:53:10 AM
Languages, at least, have an external reality relative to their users. Sure, they're a construct, but so's an automobile, and an automobile has an external reality relative to its driver. I'd argue the same for history and culture, though with history, we have to allow for the possibility that it was entirely fictional. (No doubt parts of what is popularly viewed as history, such as the story about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, is fiction, and other parts are distorted and/or speculative, but the main thrust of historical narrative, is, I think, reasonably accurate.)
That was my entire point. We take these concepts we make up and when enough people agree that they are real they become as real as any material object. I mean at the begining a language is just noise (and symbols) but to people who agree on what the sounds represent they are this incredibly powerful thing.
Oh, yeah, I agree with you and not Raz on this, though my argument was more along the line that the noise and symbols still exist, even without any agreement on their meaning. For example, there are some ancient texts that haven't ever been translated, so there's no agreement on their meaning, but said texts still exist--they aren't just mental constructs. (Of course, one can take the philosophical tack that the entire cosmos is just a mental construct and that nothing has external physical existance, but I don't think that was what Raz was getting at.)
QuoteQuoteYour inferiority has long caused us to suspect that.
This is not the first time you come off a bit hostile to me. Do you just not like me? Should I continue to talk to you or is this just you joking around with me?
Just joking around. Basically, I'm a smartass, and sometimes I just can't resist trying to throw in a zinger. Sure, I do disagree with you on some political/social issues, but I don't dislike you. Surely you don't think that I don't believe that you're an American?
EDIT: Looking at my attempted joke earlier, I see why it might seem hostile instead of joking. The joke was supposed to be in suggesting that non-Americans are inferior as a group (something that I don't actually believe, hence a joke) not that you are inferior. Sorry.
Quote from: PDH on October 24, 2011, 09:27:20 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 23, 2011, 06:45:44 PM
I'd assume the future church will have lasers and a flying Space Pope.
That would only be cool if he has a Captain Pike robo-wheelchair.
Ever notice that Pike's looks a good bit like Davros'?
Quote from: dps on October 24, 2011, 09:39:36 AM
Quote from: PDH on October 24, 2011, 09:27:20 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 23, 2011, 06:45:44 PM
I'd assume the future church will have lasers and a flying Space Pope.
That would only be cool if he has a Captain Pike robo-wheelchair.
Ever notice that Pike's looks a good bit like Davros'?
Sort of, but Davros's isn't quite as all-encompassing, and has more toys.
The Catholic Church in Poland has started an anti-Halloween campaign, saying this is a pagan and satanistic holiday. Parents are being warned that if they allow their children to participate in Halloween parties and events, they are making them susceptible to satanists, sects and demonic possessions.
I just love how they are marginalizing themselves at an increasing pace lately. 10 more years and we will have discos in cathedrals. :yeah:
Quote from: Valmy on October 24, 2011, 08:37:18 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 23, 2011, 06:33:08 AM
1) I'm flemish
Good because I am not an American I am a Texan.
Lets imagine, Rick Perry gets his wish and Texas Secedes, do you prefer to move to the US or stay with Texas?
Quote from: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 01:47:49 AM
10 more years and we will have discos in cathedrals. :yeah:
Poland - always late to the party.