We need a Russian smilie for things like this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/04/vladimir-putin-eurasian-union_n_993772.html
QuotePrime Minister Vladimir Putin Proposes 'Eurasian Union'
MOSCOW — Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has proposed forming a "Eurasian Union" of former Soviet nations, saying the bloc could become a major global player competing for influence with the United States, the European Union and Asia.
Putin, who has lamented the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union as the "greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century," denied that his proposal represents an attempt to rebuild the Soviet empire.
But he said in an article published Tuesday in the daily Izvestia that the new alliance should emerge as "one of the poles of the modern world, serving as an efficient link between Europe and the dynamic Asia-Pacific region."
Putin, who is all but certain to reclaim the presidency in March's election, has been accused of rolling back Russia's post-Soviet democratic achievements during his two terms as president in 2000-2008. He has remained Russia's de-facto leader after shifting into the premier's job due to a term limit, and his protege and successor Dmitry Medvedev proposed last month that Putin run for president.
"There is no talk about rebuilding the USSR in one way or another," Putin said. "It would be naive to try to restore or copy something that belongs to the past, but a close integration based on new values and economic and political foundation is a demand of the present time."
Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan already have formed an economic alliance that has removed customs barriers in mutual trade during the past summer. They are to introduce unified market rules and regulations starting Jan. 1. Putin said that Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan are expected to join the grouping.
"We aren't going to stop at that and are putting forward an ambitious task of reaching a new, higher level of integration with the Eurasian Union," Putin said. "Along with other key players and regional structures, such as the European Union, the United States, China and the Asia Pacific Economic Community, it should ensure stability of global development."
Russia has long called for stronger cooperation between ex-Soviet nations, but earlier attempts at forging closer ties between them have failed due to sharp economic differences. Many former Soviet nations have looked westward and remain suspicious of Moscow's intentions, setting a rocky path to Putin's "Eurasian Union."
Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, considered more Russia-friendly than his pro-Western predecessor, has continued to focus on closer relations with the European Union, shattering Moscow's hopes for luring Ukraine into its orbit. Yanukovych complained last month that the Kremlin was trying to coerce Ukraine into joining the customs union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, and said that he wouldn't yield to pressure.
Even Russia's ties with its closest ally, Belarus, has been marred by tensions. Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko, whose government is struggling with a spiraling financial crisis, has staunchly resisted Moscow's push for controlling stake in Belarus' top state-controlled industrial assets.
Putin's plan also comes in potential competition with the Eastern Partnership, an initiative launched two years ago by Poland and Sweden, which aims to deepen European Union integration with six ex-Soviet nations: Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Putin argued that deeper integration between ex-Soviet nations shouldn't contradict their aspirations to forge closer ties with the EU.
Some observers said that Putin's article heralds what could become a top policy goal after his return to presidency. "From the geopolitical viewpoint it represents an attempt to revive the USSR," Alexander Dugin, a political scholar and a longtime proponent of Russian expansionism, said in comments in online news agency Nakanune.
Others were skeptical. Dmitry Oreshkin, an independent political expert, said on Ekho Moskvy radio that Putin's proposal was merely a campaign trick aimed at voters nostalgic about the Soviet past.
Da zdravstvuyet sozhdaniy voley narodov, yedini, moguchi Sovyetskiy Soyuz.
How would a block of poor, weak nations become a major global player?
This isn`t really news, Russia has been in the process of trying such a thing for ages, they`ve got Belarus onside but even Kazakhstan is skeptical otherwise.
I'm a big fan of Putin. I used to be a big fan of Berlusconi, but got bored by his antics. Putin manages to keep coming up with funny, creative tricks though.
Quote from: Neil on October 05, 2011, 07:30:43 PM
How would a block of poor, weak nations become a major global player?
Backward, don't forget backward.
Quote from: Caliga on October 05, 2011, 07:34:25 PM
I'm a big fan of Putin. I used to be a big fan of Berlusconi, but got bored by his antics. Putin manages to keep coming up with funny, creative tricks though.
:lol:
Quote from: Caliga on October 05, 2011, 07:34:25 PM
I'm a big fan of Putin. I used to be a big fan of Berlusconi, but got bored by his antics. Putin manages to keep coming up with funny, creative tricks though.
I got a kick out of him diving underwater and discovering two ancient artifacts, all while being filmed. :lol: Subtlety is something that autocrats just don't do.
Quote from: Habsburg on October 05, 2011, 07:40:22 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 05, 2011, 07:30:43 PM
How would a block of poor, weak nations become a major global player?
Backward, don't forget backward.
America is pretty backward, and yet they're still a major player.
Quote from: DGuller on October 05, 2011, 07:49:14 PM
I got a kick out of him diving underwater and discovering two ancient artifacts, all while being filmed. :lol: Subtlety is something that autocrats just don't do.
I was actually thinking of that when I made my post. You know that was faked, right? :)
Quote from: Neil on October 05, 2011, 07:30:43 PM
How would a block of poor, weak nations become a major global player?
Europe and America are bankrupt.
I wonder if Putin is bold enough to bring some states in by force. He knows he can't get the Baltic states, but getting Ukraine (or at least the ethnic Russian half), might be difficult with out armed intervention. I can easily see him invade Belarus if the country looks like it's going to collapse and possibly Ukraine in the name of protecting ethnic Russians. 2008 showed that he is not shy about using military force against a sovereign country.
Who would stop him?
We halt at the Elbe.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 05, 2011, 09:25:02 PM
Who would stop him?
Dunno. Since the Baltic states are in NATO he won't try that one. But Ukraine? I don't know. Scenario: Russian spooks engineer major protests in Eastern Ukraine. These are deliberately violent and force the Ukrainian government to crack down on rabble rousers. Russian troops march in to "protect" the ethnic Russians. Russian troops don't leave. The Ukraine has some ties with NATO, I don't know if it'll be enough. Putin got away with the Georgian thing. He may try something bigger. I imagine he's prefer to do it peacefully (or at least without overt military operation), but I'm worried he may use violence.
Fuck that. Let Europe handle its own problems. They're the man now, after all.
Hmm..Twilight Struggle II mayhaps? :)
Quote from: Razgovory on October 05, 2011, 08:57:47 PM
I wonder if Putin is bold enough to bring some states in by force. He knows he can't get the Baltic states, but getting Ukraine (or at least the ethnic Russian half), might be difficult with out armed intervention. I can easily see him invade Belarus if the country looks like it's going to collapse and possibly Ukraine in the name of protecting ethnic Russians. 2008 showed that he is not shy about using military force against a sovereign country.
The current Ukrainian government is already Russia-friendly. Heck, one of the leaders (and a hott MILF) of the previous government is soon to be/already a political prisoner.
And if they haven't reunified with Belarus yet, Ukraine is an even longer shot.
As for Georgia, they already own a couple client states inside their borders, and Armenia still has Russian bases (hoping for a long shot at help at taking Nagorno-Karabakh).
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 06, 2011, 12:51:26 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 05, 2011, 08:57:47 PM
I wonder if Putin is bold enough to bring some states in by force. He knows he can't get the Baltic states, but getting Ukraine (or at least the ethnic Russian half), might be difficult with out armed intervention. I can easily see him invade Belarus if the country looks like it's going to collapse and possibly Ukraine in the name of protecting ethnic Russians. 2008 showed that he is not shy about using military force against a sovereign country.
The current Ukrainian government is already Russia-friendly. Heck, one of the leaders (and a hott MILF) of the previous government is soon to be/already a political prisoner.
And if they haven't reunified with Belarus yet, Ukraine is an even longer shot.
As for Georgia, they already own a couple client states inside their borders, and Armenia still has Russian bases (hoping for a long shot at help at taking Nagorno-Karabakh).
Putin is unhappy with current Ukrainian government. They are to independent. He accused them of helping Georgia back in 2008. Some of those released cables have Putin threatening Ukraine's territorial integrity.
http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/91772/
QuoteThe United States believed that comments by former Russian President Vladimir Putin challenging Ukraine's sovereignty were "cause for greater concern" after Russia invaded Georgia.
The concerns were raised in a leaked cable written by Kurt Volker, U.S. ambassador to NATO, and published on the website of Russian magazine Russian Reporter on Nov. 30. The message is undated, but the contents place it around August 2008.
The cable seems to confirm the widely reported scolding about Ukraine that Putin gave then-U.S. President George Bush, who pushed Ukraine's membership ambitions despite strong Russian opposition: "Do you understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a state," Putin allegedly told Bush then during a heated exchange.
At the April 4, 2008, NATO-Russia Council Summit in Bucharest, the cable reads: Putin "implicitly challenged the territorial integrity of Ukraine, suggesting that Ukraine was an artificial creation sewn together from territory of Poland, the Czech Republic, Romania, and especially Russia in the aftermath of the Second World War. He stated, 'the Crimea was simply given to Ukraine by a decision of the Politburo of the Soviet Communist Party Central Committee. There haven't even been any state procedures regarding transfer of the territory, since we take a very calm and responsible approach to the problem.' Putin claimed that 90 percent of inhabitants of the Crimea are Russian, 17 out of 45 million Ukrainian citizens are Russian, and that Ukraine gained enormous amounts of its territory from the east and south at the expense of Russia. He added, 'if we add in the NATO question and other problems, the very existence of the state could find itself under threat.'"
Volker added that Putin's comments "take on profound new meaning in light of Russian military actions in Georgia. 4. ... NATO needs to be mindful of the connective tissue between events in Georgia, Putin's threatening language on the territorial integrity of its neighbors, and Ukraine's (and Georgia's) MAP [Membership Action Plan] aspirations."
Ukraine and Georgia had been denied a Membership Action Plan at NATO's summit in Bucharest in April 2008, but were told that they "will become members."
Volker discusses the split between NATO allies over why Russia acted in Georgia: "The German-led allies argue that the Bucharest decision on eventual membership provoked the Russian aggression, while most others (including the new members and Canada) see it as we do: that Russia interpreted the denial of MAP [Membership Action Plan] as a green light for action against Georgia."
Read more: http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/91772/#ixzz1ZypY0j8N
I don't want to sound like a Timmay type alarmist, but Russia waging aggressive war in Europe is not out of the question.
Those are from 2008. The current Ukrainian government was just elected last year.
The current government has backed off on joining NATO, and signed agreements extending the lease for the Black Sea Fleet on the Crimea for quite some time (in exchange for a discount on natural gas).
Quote from: Razgovory on October 06, 2011, 01:26:18 AM
I don't want to sound like a Timmay type alarmist, but Russia waging aggressive war in Europe is not out of the question.
Russia is also not really capable of fighting an effective war of aggression anyway (well, maybe as well as any other European country).
Their primary weapon against Western Europe and their other neighbors is natural gas.
He said that he did not regard Ukraine as a real country. I don't think that opinion will change because a more friendly government is in power now. From what I heard he doesn't like the new government that well either. Yanukovych is trying to avoid leaning to far East or West. This displeases Putin.
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 06, 2011, 01:38:52 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 06, 2011, 01:26:18 AM
I don't want to sound like a Timmay type alarmist, but Russia waging aggressive war in Europe is not out of the question.
Russia is also not really capable of fighting an effective war of aggression anyway (well, maybe as well as any other European country).
Their primary weapon against Western Europe and their other neighbors is natural gas.
And this is based on... what?
Quote from: Ideologue on October 05, 2011, 10:44:03 PM
Fuck that. Let Europe handle its own problems. They're the man now, after all.
Pro-Soviet proles like you are a good reason why people born into the lower class shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2011, 01:44:41 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on October 05, 2011, 10:44:03 PM
Fuck that. Let Europe handle its own problems. They're the man now, after all.
Pro-Soviet proles like you are a good reason why people born into the lower class shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Aren't you a pro-soviet prole?
I thought Martinus hated Poland but also managed to hate the Soviets.
And Christianity of course. I think he has a long list with considerable overlap. In any event, I do suspect Putin might try to pull some beachy things with Ukraine in the near future, yeah.
If I was Ukraine i'd collaborate to ensure he'd use lube this time.
The time has come for Japan to reclaim karafuto and the kurils.
Quotesuggesting that Ukraine was an artificial creation sewn together from territory of Poland, the Czech Republic, Romania, and especially Russia in the aftermath of the Second World War. He stated, 'the Crimea was simply given to Ukraine by a decision of the Politburo of the Soviet Communist Party Central Committee. There haven't even been any state procedures regarding transfer of the territory, since we take a very calm and responsible approach to the problem.' Putin claimed that 90 percent of inhabitants of the Crimea are Russian, 17 out of 45 million Ukrainian citizens are Russian, and that Ukraine gained enormous amounts of its territory from the east and south at the expense of Russia.
That's pretty accurate though.
Quote from: Lettow77 on October 06, 2011, 02:43:21 AM
I thought Martinus hated Poland but also managed to hate the Soviets.
And Christianity of course. I think he has a long list with considerable overlap. In any event, I do suspect Putin might try to pull some beachy things with Ukraine in the near future, yeah.
If I was Ukraine i'd collaborate to ensure he'd use lube this time.
The time has come for Japan to reclaim karafuto and the kurils.
I like French Englightenment and detest all her enemies.
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2011, 03:21:12 AM
I like French Englightenment and detest all her enemies.
:hug:
Quote from: Josephus on October 05, 2011, 08:18:22 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 05, 2011, 07:30:43 PM
How would a block of poor, weak nations become a major global player?
Europe and America are bankrupt.
Reports of our demise have been greatly exaggerated...especially by Russians.
Subtraction by addition.
As an economic union it would make sense. Most of the former USSR is still far more closely linked economically with Russia than with Europe (or China or Turkey).
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2011, 03:21:12 AM
I like French Englightenment and detest all her enemies.
Scottish Enlightenment's better <_<
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 06, 2011, 09:39:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2011, 03:21:12 AM
I like French Englightenment and detest all her enemies.
Scottish Enlightenment's better <_<
Well now lets not get all nationalistic about it. We can like the Enlightenment in general and detest its collective enemies.
Quote from: Caliga on October 05, 2011, 07:34:25 PM
I'm a big fan of Putin. I used to be a big fan of Berlusconi, but got bored by his antics. Putin manages to keep coming up with funny, creative tricks though.
He's trying his best :
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/go-pussy-berlusconi-finds-new-party-name/story-e6frf7jx-1226160676561
Prussian Enlightenment for me, thanks:P
Quote from: derspiess on October 06, 2011, 02:12:42 PM
Prussian Enlightenment for me, thanks:P
:x
You want to do little more than serve the state? Have at it.
Russian Enlightenment. Partake in arts and science, and have lots of sex.
Oh, and partition Poland.
Quote from: Solmyr on October 06, 2011, 02:41:13 PM
Russian Enlightenment. Partake in arts and science, and have lots of sex.
Oh, and partition Poland.
:cheers:
Quote from: Habbaku on October 06, 2011, 02:46:41 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on October 06, 2011, 02:41:13 PM
Russian Enlightenment. Partake in arts and science, and have lots of sex.
Oh, and partition Poland.
:cheers:
I'd let Americans partition us :P ... or take it all, wth :) it would annoy Marcin too
Putin succeeds :ph34r:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/19/world/europe/russia-3-countries-join-eurasian-union.html?_r=1
QuoteRussia: 3 Countries Join Eurasian Union
By REUTERS
Published: November 18, 2011
The presidents of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan signed agreements on Friday aimed at tightening economic integration, a step toward what Moscow hopes will be a Eurasian Union linking former Soviet states. In a Kremlin ceremony, Presidents Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia, Nursultan Nazarbayev of Kazakhstan, and Aleksandr G. Lukashenko of Belarus signed a Declaration on Eurasian Economic Integration, which Mr. Medvedev called "a new and very powerful step on the path to forming a Eurasian Economic Union."
Quote from: Neil on October 05, 2011, 07:30:43 PM
How would a block of poor, weak nations become a major global player?
Quality has a quantity all of it's own.