Paging Sheilbh, mostly.
-the escalating sabre-rattling with Israel (I know the fascists jews help fuel the fire, but Turkey started it in earnest)
-the warning of Cyprus, to no go forward with the jew-funded gas drilling in the East Med
-the warning of EU to not let Cyprus be EU prez
What's the play here? What justifies this rather sudden retardism of Turkish foreign policy? Is Erdogan falling THAT fast in the polls? Are they heading to a debt crisis? They anticipate a mid east war and want to be on the forefront, earning ph3t loot?
Islam. There, Turkey explained.
You were kidding about Israel being fascist, right, Horthy?
Quote from: Ideologue on September 19, 2011, 03:29:06 AM
Islam. There, Turkey explained.
You were kidding about Israel being fascist, right, Horthy?
Well, their foreign minister comes off as a... well, a Russian. What he is.
Their foreign policy goal is to establish themselves as a regional power that needs to be taken into account. To do that, they have to show strength versus the West, show support for Arab matters and to play to the domestic audience.
Yes, I think it is perfectly ordinary hubris. Turkey is enjoying rapid economic growth (8.8%) and it's budget deficit is only 1.55 of GDP, so they are feeling rather superior right now. Time to throw their weight around, get leadership of the muslim world, despatch a corps of Bashi-Bazouks to Bulgaria............all that sort of thing.
However, hubris leads to nemesis, their current account balance is -9.8% of GDP, so at some point the shit will hit the fan and they will be humbled............having lost some friends. Twas ever thus.
Its a bird.
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 19, 2011, 07:34:39 AM
Its a bird.
A fat bird, so more tender than other birds. :mmm:
Turkey before alienating friends and asserting dominance
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Turkey after alienating friends and asserting dominance
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Turkey before alienating friends and asserting dominance
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Turkey after alienating friends and asserting dominance
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But seriously. Turkey after the Cold War conducted some serious reforms of their economy and their politics. Those reforms have driven the economy into high gear growth, soon it might catch Mexico in per capita GDP and they have enabled the usually excluded anatolian majority to influence politics. This results in assertive cryto-islamists in government.
To be honest, the EU has not exactly treated Turkey fairly (Greek Cypriot referendum being the most recent and outrageous screw-the-turks moment). If we ever get to the point where we have to ask ourselves "who lost Turkey" then the answer is not the AKP, but rather the Elyseé Palace and the German Chancellery.
That's baloney, Turks are responsible for their own destiny.
When people say that the turks have been part of European history they are of course correct.
Problem is that the Turks have an image-problem cause they were invaders and occupiers with a wrong religion.
Saying that Turks have been part of European history is like saying that Mongols have been part of Russian history. Maybe that's correct, but it's not exactly the selling point one would want to use.
Quote from: DGuller on September 19, 2011, 11:28:40 AM
Saying that Turks have been part of European history is like saying that Mongols have been part of Russian history. Maybe that's correct, but it's not exactly the selling point one would want to use.
Except pretty much everyone's history in Europe is one of invasion. The germanic tribes, the slavs, the Magyars - hell even the Vikings.
Quote from: Viking on September 19, 2011, 09:40:09 AMIf we ever get to the point where we have to ask ourselves "who lost Turkey" then the answer is not the AKP, but rather the Elyseé Palace and the German Chancellery.
This.
I think the Turks are finding their voice. To be honest they remind me of an Middle Eastern Brazil in that sense. In a similar way I see Erdogan as an Islamist Lula to the more crazy versions in the region.
My view is that externally the Turks have had it made clear to them that they won't join the EU. The only big countries who've been properly supportive are the UK and Spain. At the same time given Turkey's economic growth she's getting mentioned in the same sentence as Brazil and India, now would you choose them or Germany and France. Internally I think we've seen the death of the dominance of an unrepresentative elite, or of an Istanbul cringe towards pious, nationalist Anatolia. Which is a good thing.
Quote from: DGuller on September 19, 2011, 11:28:40 AM
Saying that Turks have been part of European history is like saying that Mongols have been part of Russian history. Maybe that's correct, but it's not exactly the selling point one would want to use.
They've been around for centuries already, they don't need to sell any points.
The problem with Turkey isn't what it has beeen but what it is. We don't want Greece in the EU and we don't want its bigger and more competent cousin in the EU.
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2011, 02:51:19 AM-the warning of Cyprus, to no go forward with the jew-funded gas drilling in the East Med
Ah this one is an old school dispute. I think the Turkish Cypriots claim the oil, the Turks are backing them up. The Greek Cypriots claim it too. The Israelis are just excited about nearby non-hostile oil supply.
Problem is that many Europeans base their opinion of Turks on the migrants coming to their countries from mostly rural, conservative Eastern Turkey areas.
It's as if people were basing their opinion of the U.S. on West Virginian&Alabama hicks.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 19, 2011, 12:04:49 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 19, 2011, 02:51:19 AM-the warning of Cyprus, to no go forward with the jew-funded gas drilling in the East Med
Ah this one is an old school dispute. I think the Turkish Cypriots claim the oil, the Turks are backing them up. The Greek Cypriots claim it too. The Israelis are just excited about nearby non-hostile oil supply.
I don't think "nearby", "non-hostile" and "Israel" can be used in the same sentence.
Quote from: Syt on September 19, 2011, 12:20:44 PM
Problem is that many Europeans base their opinion of Turks on the migrants coming to their countries from mostly rural, conservative Eastern Turkey areas.
It's as if people were basing their opinion of the U.S. on West Virginian&Alabama hicks.
Not really. I base my opinion on Turks on London-based, rather well dressed, pretty hot, ruthless private equity fund hot shots who I meet on transactions. I'd fuck them but they are arrogant assholes. Which is exactly how I feel about Turkey in general.
Quote from: Martinus on September 19, 2011, 12:46:25 PM
Not really. I base my opinion on Turks
I said many Europeans. And I doubt that Turkish migrants are as common a sight in Poland as in Austria, France, the Netherlands or Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_diaspora#Turkish_diaspora
Quote from: Syt on September 19, 2011, 12:20:44 PM
It's as if people were basing their opinion of the U.S. on West Virginian&Alabama hicks.
West Virginia & Alabama hicks aren't really any different from North Carolina hicks.
Quote from: Martinus on September 19, 2011, 12:46:25 PM
Quote from: Syt on September 19, 2011, 12:20:44 PM
Problem is that many Europeans base their opinion of Turks on the migrants coming to their countries from mostly rural, conservative Eastern Turkey areas.
It's as if people were basing their opinion of the U.S. on West Virginian&Alabama hicks.
Not really. I base my opinion on Turks on London-based, rather well dressed, pretty hot, ruthless private equity fund hot shots who I meet on transactions. I'd fuck them but they are arrogant assholes. Which is exactly how I feel about Turkey in general.
Yes, you have to go to places like Spain and Italy for modesty and understatedness to be considered Mediterranean virtues.
Quote from: Viking on September 19, 2011, 09:40:09 AMIf we ever get to the point where we have to ask ourselves "who lost Turkey" then the answer is not the AKP, but rather the Elyseé Palace and the German Chancellery.
And to be more exact the conservatives in both countries. The left parties in Germany support Turkey joining the EU. Austria is against it too AFAIK.
Quote from: Syt on September 19, 2011, 12:20:44 PM
Problem is that many Europeans base their opinion of Turks on the migrants coming to their countries from mostly rural, conservative Eastern Turkey areas.
It's as if people were basing their opinion of the U.S. on West Virginian&Alabama hicks.
No we base our opinions of the U.S. on who WeVi and Alabama hicks vote for.
I base my opinion on katmai.
I'd say the typical American is closer to a Berkut/Caliga hybrid.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 19, 2011, 02:04:31 PM
I'd say the typical American is closer to a Berkut/Caliga hybrid.
I have difficulty imagining such a thing. An easy going, boob loving football referee with an encyclopidic memory of all rules and a fundamental belief in enforcing such rules. I suppose its possible.
And a taste for younger gamer meat.
I'm the average American.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 19, 2011, 03:00:29 PM
I'm the average American.
Somehow I didnt picture you as overweight.
God is an American.
Quote from: crazy canuck on September 19, 2011, 03:05:16 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on September 19, 2011, 03:00:29 PM
I'm the average American.
Somehow I didnt picture you as overweight.
^_^
If there's one thing I can be proud of, it's my figure. Fuck the J.D., it's caused me nothing but misery. But my 31-inch waist? Well, it's not quite ready for homosexuality, but they have warped standards anyway.
Quote from: Jacob on September 20, 2011, 01:38:37 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 19, 2011, 04:12:47 PM
God is an American.
That would explain so much.
Yeah. He throws his weight around, goes ahead with crazy ideas before thinking them through, and does a lot of stupid stuff out of genuinely well meaning reasons. :yes:
Quote from: Zanza on September 19, 2011, 01:52:01 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 19, 2011, 09:40:09 AMIf we ever get to the point where we have to ask ourselves "who lost Turkey" then the answer is not the AKP, but rather the Elyseé Palace and the German Chancellery.
And to be more exact the conservatives in both countries. The left parties in Germany support Turkey joining the EU. Austria is against it too AFAIK.
Chirac is indeed not a conservative :)
Remind me to never waste a Bowie music quote on you heathens ever again.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 19, 2011, 02:04:31 PM
I'd say the typical American is closer to a Berkut/Caliga hybrid.
Depends on where you go, I suppose. I think Berkut and Cal both have above average income, though.
I'm afraid of the world.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 20, 2011, 08:02:19 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 19, 2011, 07:34:39 AM
Its a bird.
Brining works best.
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Disagree indeed. Turkey is best with a good rub & smoked...
Quote from: C.C.R. on September 20, 2011, 08:52:26 AM
Disagree indeed. Turkey is best with a good rub & smoked...
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A rub & a tug, then?
:P
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I'm an apartment dweller, so I dont have a bloody smoker available to me or else I'd do that. Though we do now have a grill with a rotisserie.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 20, 2011, 09:23:39 AM
I'm an apartment dweller, so I dont have a bloody smoker available to me or else I'd do that. Though we do now have a grill with a rotisserie.
I use my gas grill to smoke meat -- I'll fill metal coffee cans with soaked hickory chips & put 'em right over the flames. Purists will call me a douchebag for doing it that way, but I get awesome temp control & get the exact results that I'm looking for, so fuck 'em...
Quote from: C.C.R. on September 20, 2011, 08:52:26 AM
Disagree indeed. Turkey is best with a good rub & smoked...
WHen I've smoked chicken, the taste of chicken is overwhelmed by the smoke. All you can taste is smoke.
Quote from: Barrister on September 20, 2011, 09:45:19 AM
Quote from: C.C.R. on September 20, 2011, 08:52:26 AM
Disagree indeed. Turkey is best with a good rub & smoked...
WHen I've smoked chicken, the taste of chicken is overwhelmed by the smoke. All you can taste is smoke.
You're doing it wrong...
Chicken doesn't have so much flavor that it'd be much of a loss, unless the smoke is really that strong.
I used to think brining was the way to go - we do chicken and Turkey that way. But a friend recently got a real barbaque - ie not just a grill but a smoker - and oh my god was that good.