http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/silicon-valley-billionaire-funding-creation-artificial-libertarian-islands-140840896.html
QuotePay Pal founder and early Facebook investor Peter Thiel has given $1.25 million to an initiative to create floating libertarian countries in international waters, according to a profile of the billionaire in Details magazine.
Thiel has been a big backer of the Seasteading Institute, which seeks to build sovereign nations on oil rig-like platforms to occupy waters beyond the reach of law-of-the-sea treaties. The idea is for these countries to start from scratch--free from the laws, regulations, and moral codes of any existing place. Details says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."
"There are quite a lot of people who think it's not possible," Thiel said at a Seasteading Institute Conference in 2009, according to Details. (His first donation was in 2008, for $500,000.) "That's a good thing. We don't need to really worry about those people very much, because since they don't think it's possible they won't take us very seriously. And they will not actually try to stop us until it's too late."
The Seasteading Institute's Patri Friedman says the group plans to launch an office park off the San Francisco coast next year, with the first full-time settlements following seven years later.
Thiel made news earlier this year for putting a portion of his $1.5 billion fortune into an initiative to encourage entrepreneurs to skip college.
Another Silicon Valley titan, Amazon founder Jeff Bezos, announced in June that he would be funding the "Clock of the Long Now." The clock is designed to keep ticking for 10,000 years, and will be built in a mountain in west Texas.
:lol:
I was wondering what 'artificial' meant and then suddenly realized they were literal islands.
should build it underwater instead :hmm:
I like that approach. We get to ship the libertarians off to some hellhole far away from us, and we'll get them to actually do it voluntarily all on their own. :)
the movie is gonna be way cool: Libertardian Holocaust.
I am not even sure how that would work. Each person is going to live on fish alone?
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2011, 12:32:15 PM
I am not even sure how that would work. Each person is going to live on fish alone?
Well they are starting off with an ambitious - office park! :lol:
I call dibs on forming an armed gang on one of these and taking it over.
anarcho-capitalism (which I guess is closest to Raynd-ish dreams) is a direction, not a goal.
Rand would disapprove of his homosexuality.
Quote from: LaCroix on August 16, 2011, 12:06:04 PM
should build it underwater instead :hmm:
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 16, 2011, 12:31:08 PM
the movie is gonna be way cool: Libertardian Holocaust.
The game might be even better...
Quote from: garbon on August 16, 2011, 12:53:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2011, 12:32:15 PM
I am not even sure how that would work. Each person is going to live on fish alone?
Well they are starting off with an ambitious - office park! :lol:
The big plan is to import every necessity of life while exporting clerical services?
The only way this works is if they inadvertently create a small, socialist utopia.
Quote from: LaCroix on August 16, 2011, 12:06:04 PM
should build it underwater instead :hmm:
Would you kindly... adopt the gold standard?
Quote from: starbright on August 16, 2011, 01:12:38 PM
The only way this works is if they inadvertently create a small, socialist utopia.
that'll work until someone finds a pretty shell that someone else wants. REplace shell with woman/food/whatever fits your fancy.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fspawnkill.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fbioshock-1.jpg&hash=821bc38ce92f1a426efbad2d152e834bdd0da63b)
Quote from: Slargos on August 16, 2011, 01:26:44 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fspawnkill.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fbioshock-1.jpg&hash=821bc38ce92f1a426efbad2d152e834bdd0da63b)
:huh:
It was a shot at grabon.
Stupid and defensive is no way to go through life son.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 01:56:54 PM
It was a shot at grabon.
Stupid and defensive is no way to go through life son.
Don't worry. If you apply yourself, I'm sure you can change. :hug:
Besides, since every other reply to me is an attempt at a cheap shot, I think I have ample reason to be defensive. :P
Quote from: Slargos on August 16, 2011, 02:01:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 01:56:54 PM
It was a shot at grabon.
Stupid and defensive is no way to go through life son.
Don't worry. If you apply yourself, I'm sure you can change. :hug:
That was weak, even for you.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 16, 2011, 02:01:54 PM
Quote from: Slargos on August 16, 2011, 02:01:15 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 01:56:54 PM
It was a shot at grabon.
Stupid and defensive is no way to go through life son.
Don't worry. If you apply yourself, I'm sure you can change. :hug:
That was weak, even for you.
Every other "witty" retort here is some variation of "you are glue". :P
Cool, I'll move next to them and start up my hog farm. :hmm:
Quote from: Legbiter on August 16, 2011, 02:45:52 PM
Cool, I'll move next to them and start up my hog farm. :hmm:
I shall reinvent myself as Drug-Kingpin Sonny Largos.
On the contingency that I may dispose of... excess human capital... on your pig farm, I shall waive the Protection cost. :shifty:
This quote caught my eye...
QuoteDetails says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."
Yeah, those loose building codes look especially appropriate for an oil rig-like platform far, far out at sea. :lol:
I really, really want to see one of these happen, just to see how rapidly they devolve into anarchy and then totalitarianism.
Or, as implied above, disintegrate and fall into the ocean.
Quote from: DGuller on August 16, 2011, 12:14:12 PM
I like that approach. We get to ship the libertarians off to some hellhole far away from us, and we'll get them to actually do it voluntarily all on their own. :)
We had this idea with America and religious nuts. They came back. :(
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 03:23:22 PM
I really, really want to see one of these happen, just to see how rapidly they devolve into anarchy and then totalitarianism.
Or, as implied above, disintegrate and fall into the ocean.
I actually Wiki'd micronations, and it turns out that this isn't the first or even the second libertarian island experiment. :wacko: Shockingly, none of those experiments have worked out. Unfortunately, none of those experiments ended particularly violently either. :(
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 03:23:22 PM
I really, really want to see one of these happen, just to see how rapidly they devolve into anarchy and then totalitarianism.
Well, hardcore libertarians are just small-a anarchists so right away would be my guess.
Quote from: DGuller on August 16, 2011, 03:29:04 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 03:23:22 PM
I really, really want to see one of these happen, just to see how rapidly they devolve into anarchy and then totalitarianism.
Or, as implied above, disintegrate and fall into the ocean.
I actually Wiki'd micronations, and it turns out that this isn't the first or even the second libertarian island experiment. :wacko: Shockingly, none of those experiments have worked out. Unfortunately, none of those experiments ended particularly violently either. :(
Well, there's Sealand--it's like, what, six people?
Also,
QuoteOperation Atlantis, an early 1970s New York–based libertarian group that built a concrete-hulled ship called Freedom, which they sailed to the Caribbean, intending to anchor it permanently there as their "territory". The ship sank in a hurricane and the project foundered with it.
Republic of Minerva, another libertarian project that succeeded in building a small man-made island on the Minerva Reefs south of Fiji in 1972 before being ejected by troops from Tonga, who later formally annexed it.
Principality of Freedonia, a libertarian project that tried to lease territory from the Sultan of Awdal in Somaliland in 2001. Resulting public dissatisfaction led to rioting, and the reported death of a Somali.
Oceania (also known as "The Atlantis Project", but unrelated to the 1970s project listed above), another libertarian artificial island project that raised US $400,000 before going bankrupt in 1994
:nelson:
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 03:24:56 PM
We had this idea with America and religious nuts. They came back. :(
They did? :hmm:
Quote from: DGuller on August 16, 2011, 03:29:04 PM
I actually Wiki'd micronations, and it turns out that this isn't the first or even the second libertarian island experiment. :wacko: Shockingly, none of those experiments have worked out.
Remember, comrades, true libertarianism has never been tried! ;)
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 16, 2011, 03:29:04 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 03:23:22 PM
I really, really want to see one of these happen, just to see how rapidly they devolve into anarchy and then totalitarianism.
Or, as implied above, disintegrate and fall into the ocean.
I actually Wiki'd micronations, and it turns out that this isn't the first or even the second libertarian island experiment. :wacko: Shockingly, none of those experiments have worked out. Unfortunately, none of those experiments ended particularly violently either. :(
Well, there's Sealand--it's like, what, six people?
Does anybody actually live on Sealand?
Someone is ought to make a statistics about in what division do Languish threads become Slargofied, or grumblerified. I see no third option.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 03:24:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 16, 2011, 12:14:12 PM
I like that approach. We get to ship the libertarians off to some hellhole far away from us, and we'll get them to actually do it voluntarily all on their own. :)
We had this idea with America and religious nuts. They came back. :(
We? I don't recall Poles exiling people to the New World.
Quote from: Tamas on August 16, 2011, 03:41:14 PM
Someone is ought to make a statistics about in what division do Languish threads become Slargofied, or grumblerified. I see no third option.
I apologize for having such a forceful personality. :sleep:
He's good at losing money too.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-15/thiel-s-clarium-hedge-fund-to-make-tech-investments-after-losses.html
Quote from: Legbiter on August 16, 2011, 03:22:31 PM
This quote caught my eye...
QuoteDetails says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."
Yeah, those loose building codes look especially appropriate for an oil rig-like platform far, far out at sea. :lol:
I guess this guy was inspired by this goblin platform/ship in Thousand Needles. :P
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2011, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 03:24:56 PM
We had this idea with America and religious nuts. They came back. :(
They did? :hmm:
They landed in Normandy.
Quote from: Tamas on August 16, 2011, 03:41:14 PM
Someone is ought to make a statistics about in what division do Languish threads become Slargofied, or grumblerified. I see no third option.
I feel overlooked. A thread devolving into ragequit drama and/or gayness is my signature act. <_<
I don't think this will work the way the billionaire thinks it will.
Let's say a bunch of Americans go to live on the oil platform. They will still be US citizens - they will still be subject to significant US criminal and civil jurisdiction, including the obligation to file and pay US taxes. Moreover, to the extent they do anything inimical to the property rights of others while on present in the high seas outside of any sovereign jurisdiction, they could be subject to the international law of piracy.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:18:16 PM
I don't think this will work the way the billionaire thinks it will.
Let's say a bunch of Americans go to live on the oil platform. They will still be US citizens - they will still be subject to significant US criminal and civil jurisdiction, including the obligation to file and pay US taxes. Moreover, to the extent they do anything inimical to the property rights of others while on present in the high seas outside of any sovereign jurisdiction, they could be subject to the international law of piracy.
I largely agree but can't they renounce their US citizenship?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:18:16 PM
I don't think this will work the way the billionaire thinks it will.
Let's say a bunch of Americans go to live on the oil platform. They will still be US citizens - they will still be subject to significant US criminal and civil jurisdiction, including the obligation to file and pay US taxes. Moreover, to the extent they do anything inimical to the property rights of others while on present in the high seas outside of any sovereign jurisdiction, they could be subject to the international law of piracy.
Government tyranny cuts down another one of the most productive members of society. :(
I was wondering the same thing as Marty. Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country. Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands. The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:20:33 PM
I largely agree but can't they renounce their US citizenship?
You can only do it from a foreign consulate, not from a floating oil platform. They could renounce before entering the oil platform but that would leave them stateless, which could prove extremely awkward if anyone decided they wanted to move off the platform back to civilization later.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:26:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:20:33 PM
I largely agree but can't they renounce their US citizenship?
You can only do it from a foreign consulate, not from a floating oil platform. They could renounce before entering the oil platform but that would leave them stateless, which could prove extremely awkward if anyone decided they wanted to move off the platform back to civilization later.
Well, as Yi said there are plenty of pseudo-states willing to give them citizenship for a buck.
And also, considering they are batshit crazy to begin with, I assumed that the prospect of being stateless if this does go bust is not something that would worry them.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
I was wondering the same thing as Marty. Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country. Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands. The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?
They would not become recognized a nation state which is able to exert its own territorial boundaries and therefore the International Law of the Sea will still apply if they are outside the boundaries of a Nation State.
ie they cant escape the Man.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:26:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:20:33 PM
I largely agree but can't they renounce their US citizenship?
You can only do it from a foreign consulate, not from a floating oil platform. They could renounce before entering the oil platform but that would leave them stateless, which could prove extremely awkward if anyone decided they wanted to move off the platform back to civilization later.
And without knowing all the ins and outs, there are all sorts of tax payments that trigger if you renounce your US citizenship with significant assets.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 16, 2011, 04:29:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
I was wondering the same thing as Marty. Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country. Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands. The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?
They would not become recognized a nation state which is able to exert its own territorial boundaries and therefore the International Law of the Sea will still apply if they are outside the boundaries of a Nation State.
Would that mean they have to file taxes in the US? :huh:
Quote from: alfred russel on August 16, 2011, 04:30:02 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:26:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:20:33 PM
I largely agree but can't they renounce their US citizenship?
You can only do it from a foreign consulate, not from a floating oil platform. They could renounce before entering the oil platform but that would leave them stateless, which could prove extremely awkward if anyone decided they wanted to move off the platform back to civilization later.
And without knowing all the ins and outs, there are all sorts of tax payments that trigger if you renounce your US citizenship with significant assets.
Well, the guy is a billionaire. An assumption is that he can hire good tax lawyers.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 16, 2011, 04:29:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
I was wondering the same thing as Marty. Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country. Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands. The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?
They would not become recognized a nation state which is able to exert its own territorial boundaries and therefore the International Law of the Sea will still apply if they are outside the boundaries of a Nation State.
Would that mean they have to file taxes in the US? :huh:
Yes--all American citizens have to file taxes (if you have relevent income) regardless of where you live or what citizenship you pick up. I think some non citizens are supposed to as well.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
I was wondering the same thing as Marty. Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country. Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands. The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?
The tax havens are pretty lax about entry and work requirements as long as you have the resources, but citizenship is another story. Caymans, e.g. requires 3-5 years.
Actually getting recognition from the Caymans would not be possible because the Caymans aren't an independent sovereign territory capable of granting recognition.
Even if all the hoops were jumped through, the US (and I assume many other countries as well) would still reserve the right to call inhabitants to account if their actions resulted in criminal consequences in the US (eg drug or weapons trafficking). For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:20:33 PM
I largely agree but can't they renounce their US citizenship?
Sure, provided they don't mind becoming stateless individuals.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 16, 2011, 04:32:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 16, 2011, 04:29:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
I was wondering the same thing as Marty. Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country. Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands. The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?
They would not become recognized a nation state which is able to exert its own territorial boundaries and therefore the International Law of the Sea will still apply if they are outside the boundaries of a Nation State.
Would that mean they have to file taxes in the US? :huh:
Yes--all American citizens have to file taxes (if you have relevent income) regardless of where you live or what citizenship you pick up. I think some non citizens are supposed to as well.
I'm fairly certain that non-American citizens who do not live in the US probably do not have to. If they do, I'm screwed.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:31:24 PM
Well, the guy is a billionaire. An assumption is that he can hire good tax lawyers.
If he has figured out a way to renounce his US citizenship and still avoid US taxes, that is great for him, but that seems disconnected from living on an oil platform.
I'll enjoy the footage of a SEAL team assraping them on their oil platform
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:34:07 PM
I'm fairly certain that non-American citizens who do not live in the US probably do not have to. If they do, I'm screwed.
yes - this is one of those ways in which the US is "special"
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:33:19 PM
For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.
Even in international waters? :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:34:07 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 16, 2011, 04:32:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 16, 2011, 04:29:03 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
I was wondering the same thing as Marty. Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country. Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands. The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?
They would not become recognized a nation state which is able to exert its own territorial boundaries and therefore the International Law of the Sea will still apply if they are outside the boundaries of a Nation State.
Would that mean they have to file taxes in the US? :huh:
Yes--all American citizens have to file taxes (if you have relevent income) regardless of where you live or what citizenship you pick up. I think some non citizens are supposed to as well.
I'm fairly certain that non-American citizens who do not live in the US probably do not have to. If they do, I'm screwed.
I didn't say all non citizens. :P I was told by a green card holder from Germany that worked in the US for a number of years that he had picked up an obligation to file US taxes for life regardless of where he lived, but I don't know if that is accurate. Obviously there are enforceability problems even with citizens, but presumably a guy worth billions is worth tracking down.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:35:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:34:07 PM
I'm fairly certain that non-American citizens who do not live in the US probably do not have to. If they do, I'm screwed.
yes - this is one of those ways in which the US is "special"
When PDH was arguing that you should tax foreigners living abroad, I thought he was joking. :ph34r:
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:35:39 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:33:19 PM
For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.
Even in international waters? :huh:
QuoteCoast Guard Cutter Bertholf Breaks Up Major Cocaine Smuggling Operation
Source: US Coast Guard, 7/14/2009
The Coast Guard Cutter Bertholf seized two suspected drug smuggling boats, detained four suspected smugglers and recovered a bale of cocaine as evidence after disrupting a major drug smuggling operation in international waters some 80 miles off the coast of Guatemala late Wednesday night.
This seizure is the first drug bust conducted by the crew of the Bertholf. The ship, home ported here and commissioned less than one year ago, is the first of eight planned National Security Cutters being built as part of the Coast Guard's deepwater major-acquisition and modernization program to replace the 378-foot Hamilton-class high endurance cutters which entered service during the 1960s.
"I am proud of the Bertholf's crew and congratulate them on this milestone achievement for the Coast Guard's newest cutter," said Adm. Thad Allen, commandant of the Coast Guard. "The cutter is serving in the Southern approaches to stop the flow of drugs across the Southwest Border along with some of the very Coast Guard ships she was designed to replace -- and she's living up the to a high standard set by her predecessors. The Bertholf's management of this very dynamic law enforcement situation shows the usefulness and importance of launching a new generation of modern, well equipped cutters to protect the American people."
The incident began when a group of four suspicious 'pangas' were spotted by a maritime patrol aircraft and the Bertholf, which was in the area on patrol as part of an ongoing interagency and international counter drug effort, was alerted to the situation. A marksman aboard a U.S. Coast Guard helicopter, operating from the cutter, shot out the engines of two speedboats and fired warning shots at two others in a pursuit during which bales were seen being thrown overboard from all four boats. The seized boats and suspects were apprehended a short time later by crews aboard two of the Bertholf's interceptor boats.
A search for additional jettisoned bales is on-going. The four apprehended individuals and evidence are being detained aboard the Bertholf until final disposition of the case can be determined. The Coast Guard worked closely with Guatemalan officials during the interdiction.
Ok but that's presumably two countries working on capturing a smuggling operation between them both.
I don't see a case for the US jurisdiction if the drugs originated from a country where they are legal (such as Portugal) and the ship was not destined for the US territory.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:33:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
I was wondering the same thing as Marty. Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country. Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands. The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?
The tax havens are pretty lax about entry and work requirements as long as you have the resources, but citizenship is another story. Caymans, e.g. requires 3-5 years.
Actually getting recognition from the Caymans would not be possible because the Caymans aren't an independent sovereign territory capable of granting recognition.
Even if all the hoops were jumped through, the US (and I assume many other countries as well) would still reserve the right to call inhabitants to account if their actions resulted in criminal consequences in the US (eg drug or weapons trafficking). For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.
Yeah, citizenship is still a very valuable right, and no recognized country gives that up cheaply.
On a quick google search, apparently the Carribean island nation of Dominica will sell you citizenship for a cool $75,000.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:35:39 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:33:19 PM
For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.
Even in international waters? :huh:
Oh yeah - that's the whole point.
The law applies not only to non-flagged vessels, but to any flagged vessel where the flagging country consents to US search and seizure. And the US has built up relationships with various common flag of convience countries to get permission.
Quote from: Barrister on August 16, 2011, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 16, 2011, 04:33:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
I was wondering the same thing as Marty. Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country. Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands. The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?
The tax havens are pretty lax about entry and work requirements as long as you have the resources, but citizenship is another story. Caymans, e.g. requires 3-5 years.
Actually getting recognition from the Caymans would not be possible because the Caymans aren't an independent sovereign territory capable of granting recognition.
Even if all the hoops were jumped through, the US (and I assume many other countries as well) would still reserve the right to call inhabitants to account if their actions resulted in criminal consequences in the US (eg drug or weapons trafficking). For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.
Yeah, citizenship is still a very valuable right, and no recognized country gives that up cheaply.
On a quick google search, apparently the Carribean island nation of Dominica will sell you citizenship for a cool $75,000.
Maybe they can get a bulk deal.
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 04:39:37 PM
Ok but that's presumably two countries working on capturing a smuggling operation between them both.
Broader than that: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-5th-circuit/1355913.html
I thought Maritime law was the thing Marty knew about.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 16, 2011, 05:36:29 PM
No Bioshock references? WTF!
:lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.us.playstation.com%2Fservlet%2FJiveServlet%2FshowImage%2F2-36124017-12326%2FNot-sure-if-serious%2B2.jpg&hash=74af35b0a6ec91996781fd02e32298e9105d3c89)
I did a search for bioshock and nothing popped up. -_-
As you can see, I retracted that statement.
China Mieville weighed in on this back on 2007: http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3328/
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 03:36:38 PM
Also,
QuoteOperation Atlantis, an early 1970s New York–based libertarian group that built a concrete-hulled ship called Freedom, which they sailed to the Caribbean, intending to anchor it permanently there as their "territory". The ship sank in a hurricane and the project foundered with it.
Republic of Minerva, another libertarian project that succeeded in building a small man-made island on the Minerva Reefs south of Fiji in 1972 before being ejected by troops from Tonga, who later formally annexed it.
Principality of Freedonia, a libertarian project that tried to lease territory from the Sultan of Awdal in Somaliland in 2001. Resulting public dissatisfaction led to rioting, and the reported death of a Somali.
Oceania (also known as "The Atlantis Project", but unrelated to the 1970s project listed above), another libertarian artificial island project that raised US $400,000 before going bankrupt in 1994
:nelson:
You gotta hand it to the socialists. At least socialist paradises lasted for decades; unlike these fleeting projects.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 16, 2011, 03:53:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 16, 2011, 03:24:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 16, 2011, 12:14:12 PM
I like that approach. We get to ship the libertarians off to some hellhole far away from us, and we'll get them to actually do it voluntarily all on their own. :)
We had this idea with America and religious nuts. They came back. :(
We? I don't recall Poles exiling people to the New World.
No. But they came anyways. :(
Quote from: Josephus on August 16, 2011, 06:34:02 PM
You gotta hand it to the socialists. At least socialist paradises lasted for decades; unlike these fleeting projects.
Alas, when you can't rob the masses, it makes it much harder.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 16, 2011, 06:45:09 PM
Quote from: Josephus on August 16, 2011, 06:34:02 PM
You gotta hand it to the socialists. At least socialist paradises lasted for decades; unlike these fleeting projects.
Alas, when you can't rob the masses, it makes it much harder.
Of course they can rob the masses. What else would be the point? Billionaires want government out of their lives for the same reason wolves want shepherds out of their lives.
The teeming masses that live on windswept rusty oil rigs, yes.
Quote from: Jacob on August 16, 2011, 06:05:20 PM
China Mieville weighed in on this back on 2007: http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3328/
Reminds me of L. Ron Hubbard's Sea Org.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 16, 2011, 06:51:25 PM
The teeming masses that live on windswept rusty oil rigs, yes.
I didn't say they were clear thinkers. Hell, they are trying to build islands to live on. Presumably they still want to do business on the mainland.
Criticism of Freedom Ship kooks by Mieville is like watching a cage match between two retards. It doesn't matter who wins, you just watch to see which one shits himself first.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 16, 2011, 07:01:17 PM
Criticism of Freedom Ship kooks by Mieville is like watching a cage match between two retards. It doesn't matter who wins, you just watch to see which one shits himself first.
I checked, the ship still hasn't begun construction. I doubt it ever will. Still 50,000 libertarians dying at once when the boat capsizes due to ignoring regulations would have been a treat.
:lol:
True.
Sounds like the country in Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, which lived off a factory that canned fish.
I wish we could build colony starships and send people to colonize the galaxy.
Can you imaging all the weirdo colonies that would appear across space?
In a 1000 years, they would be billion people planets.
It could be like the Honorverse, or Hammer Slammers.
Mormon alliance against the Star Kingdom of New Otawa.
I suspect creating islands in the middle of the ocean is a tad more feasible than interstellar travel.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 16, 2011, 07:55:08 PM
I suspect creating islands in the middle of the ocean is a tad more feasible than interstellar travel.
Both are more feasible than creating an libertarian paradise. -_-
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 16, 2011, 07:01:17 PM
Criticism of Freedom Ship kooks by Mieville is like watching a cage match between two retards. It doesn't matter who wins, you just watch to see which one shits himself first.
But this is a hell of a line:
QuoteFor some libertarians, "liberty" is more negotiable than "aryan."
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 03:23:22 PM
I really, really want to see one of these happen, just to see how rapidly they devolve into anarchy and then totalitarianism.
Or, as implied above, disintegrate and fall into the ocean.
Me and some friends have slowly been building up men and weapons to establish a small conservative island nation through a different method.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on August 16, 2011, 10:36:14 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 03:23:22 PM
I really, really want to see one of these happen, just to see how rapidly they devolve into anarchy and then totalitarianism.
Or, as implied above, disintegrate and fall into the ocean.
Me and some friends have slowly been building up men and weapons to establish a small conservative island nation through a different method.
:D
Target: Bahrain.
Advantages: it's unlikely you'd govern it any worse; oil wealth; as a Protestant nation, ToT does not apply.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on August 16, 2011, 10:36:14 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 03:23:22 PM
I really, really want to see one of these happen, just to see how rapidly they devolve into anarchy and then totalitarianism.
Or, as implied above, disintegrate and fall into the ocean.
Me and some friends have slowly been building up men and weapons to establish a small conservative island nation through a different method.
Up to your old tricks again, eh? You old dog. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Dog
Actually, I don't even remember if ToT shields don't work on Protestants.
QuoteOperation Red Dog was the code name of plan by AUBURN Canadian and American mercenaries, largely affiliated with nationalist groups, to overthrow the government of Dominica, where they planned to restore former Prime Minister Patrick John to power. The chief figures included American Klansman Mike Perdue, Canadian nationalist Wolfgang Droege, and Barbadian weapons smuggler Sydney Burnett-Alleyne.[1] After the plot was thwarted by U.S. federal agents in New Orleans, Louisiana, the news media dubbed it "Bayou of Pigs", after the failed 1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion.[1]
The leader Mike Perdue and six other men pleaded guilty to violation of the Neutrality Act; two others were found guilty by a jury.[2] The men received three-year prison sentences.[3]
It goes on continuing not to say wtf they mean by AUBURN.
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 11:54:12 PM
Actually, I don't even remember if ToT shields don't work on Protestants.
They don't, at least in EU2. It's one of the perks for converting away from Catholicism.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 16, 2011, 04:36:33 PM
I didn't say all non citizens. :P I was told by a green card holder from Germany that worked in the US for a number of years that he had picked up an obligation to file US taxes for life regardless of where he lived, but I don't know if that is accurate. Obviously there are enforceability problems even with citizens, but presumably a guy worth billions is worth tracking down.
A couple of years ago, I did an internship in the US. Not on a green card, but a J1 visa. I had to file some documents ("W1" or so?) with the IRS stating that I didn't earn enough to fall under US taxation rules thanks to a German-US tax treaty. If I hadn't done that, I might have gotten problems the next time I wanted to visit the US or at the latest when I ever want to work there again.
Quote from: Zanza on August 17, 2011, 04:06:16 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 16, 2011, 04:36:33 PM
I didn't say all non citizens. :P I was told by a green card holder from Germany that worked in the US for a number of years that he had picked up an obligation to file US taxes for life regardless of where he lived, but I don't know if that is accurate. Obviously there are enforceability problems even with citizens, but presumably a guy worth billions is worth tracking down.
A couple of years ago, I did an internship in the US. Not on a green card, but a J1 visa. I had to file some documents ("W1" or so?) with the IRS stating that I didn't earn enough to fall under US taxation rules thanks to a German-US tax treaty. If I hadn't done that, I might have gotten problems the next time I wanted to visit the US or at the latest when I ever want to work there again.
Meh, Syria is nice this time of year.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 17, 2011, 12:13:08 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 11:54:12 PM
Actually, I don't even remember if ToT shields don't work on Protestants.
They don't, at least in EU2. It's one of the perks for converting away from Catholicism.
And I don't think there was a ToT in Eu3.
Quote from: Josephus on August 17, 2011, 08:58:23 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on August 17, 2011, 12:13:08 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on August 16, 2011, 11:54:12 PM
Actually, I don't even remember if ToT shields don't work on Protestants.
They don't, at least in EU2. It's one of the perks for converting away from Catholicism.
And I don't think there was a ToT in Eu3.
No, Paradox raped the fuck out of that title.
Animist England!
Quote from: Ideologue on August 17, 2011, 09:12:25 AM
Animist England!
Glad to see the Druids returned to power.
Quote from: Jacob on August 16, 2011, 06:05:20 PM
China Mieville weighed in on this back on 2007: http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3328/
You really can spot a Marxist a mile away. He manages to drown out any good points he makes with nonsense and communist buzzwords. To me, the weaker utopian impulse is point in it's favor, not a detraction.
The billionaire would still need income from US sources, presumably, or from anywhere in the world. There's no way this floating island or ship would provide enough revenues for a billionaire to sustain him. All income from the US would be taxed in the US, presumably, given there would be no fiscal agreement with his new nationality and the US.
If he remains a citizen of the US of A, he will have to tax himself on all worlwide income.
The floating island is too small for a fortune 500 company to have its HQ, therefore, that company woud still have to apply US laws as it will be based in the US.
And the cost of such a project is likely to be more than 1.5 million dollars, so you need a lot of libertarians to build it. If the Tea Partyers weren't all on wellfare instead of working productive jobs, they might have enough money to build their paradise island.
But I kinda suspect no one will really want to abandon US citizenship with all the priviledges it gives. Would a libertarian state called Libertaria open diplomatic ambassies worldwide to help their citizens in case of trouble? I doubt it... So, citizens would have to rely on themselves if they or their corporations get in trouble abroad. Not sure that's appealing.
Quote from: viper37 on August 17, 2011, 12:21:25 PM
If the Tea Partyers weren't all on wellfare instead of working productive jobs, they might have enough money to build their paradise island.
Tea Partyers: not libertarians. Even to the extent they are, they are especially not these sorts of libertarians.