Silicon Valley billionaire funding creation of artificial libertarian islands

[alfred russel]

I was wondering the same thing as Marty.  Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country.  Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands.  The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?

They would not become recognized a nation state which is able to exert its own territorial boundaries and therefore the International Law of the Sea will still apply if they are outside the boundaries of a Nation State.

Would that mean they have to file taxes in the US? 

Yes--all American citizens have to file taxes (if you have relevent income) regardless of where you live or what citizenship you pick up. I think some non citizens are supposed to as well.

I'm fairly certain that non-American citizens who do not live in the US probably do not have to. If they do, I'm screwed.

I didn't say all non citizens.  I was told by a green card holder from Germany that worked in the US for a number of years that he had picked up an obligation to file US taxes for life regardless of where he lived, but I don't know if that is accurate. Obviously there are enforceability problems even with citizens, but presumably a guy worth billions is worth tracking down.

[Martinus]

I'm fairly certain that non-American citizens who do not live in the US probably do not have to. If they do, I'm screwed.

yes - this is one of those ways in which the US is "special"

When PDH was arguing that you should tax foreigners living abroad, I thought he was joking. 

[Ed Anger]

For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.

Even in international waters? 

Coast Guard Cutter Bertholf Breaks Up Major Cocaine Smuggling Operation

Source: US Coast Guard, 7/14/2009

The Coast Guard Cutter Bertholf seized two suspected drug smuggling boats, detained four suspected smugglers and recovered a bale of cocaine as evidence after disrupting a major drug smuggling operation in international waters some 80 miles off the coast of Guatemala late Wednesday night.

This seizure is the first drug bust conducted by the crew of the Bertholf. The ship, home ported here and commissioned less than one year ago, is the first of eight planned National Security Cutters being built as part of the Coast Guard's deepwater major-acquisition and modernization program to replace the 378-foot Hamilton-class high endurance cutters which entered service during the 1960s.

"I am proud of the Bertholf's crew and congratulate them on this milestone achievement for the Coast Guard's newest cutter," said Adm. Thad Allen, commandant of the Coast Guard. "The cutter is serving in the Southern approaches to stop the flow of drugs across the Southwest Border along with some of the very Coast Guard ships she was designed to replace -- and she's living up the to a high standard set by her predecessors. The Bertholf's management of this very dynamic law enforcement situation shows the usefulness and importance of launching a new generation of modern, well equipped cutters to protect the American people."

The incident began when a group of four suspicious 'pangas' were spotted by a maritime patrol aircraft and the Bertholf, which was in the area on patrol as part of an ongoing interagency and international counter drug effort, was alerted to the situation. A marksman aboard a U.S. Coast Guard helicopter, operating from the cutter, shot out the engines of two speedboats and fired warning shots at two others in a pursuit during which bales were seen being thrown overboard from all four boats. The seized boats and suspects were apprehended a short time later by crews aboard two of the Bertholf's interceptor boats.

A search for additional jettisoned bales is on-going. The four apprehended individuals and evidence are being detained aboard the Bertholf until final disposition of the case can be determined. The Coast Guard worked closely with Guatemalan officials during the interdiction.

[Martinus]

Ok but that's presumably two countries working on capturing a smuggling operation between them both.

I don't see a case for the US jurisdiction if the drugs originated from a country where they are legal (such as Portugal) and the ship was not destined for the US territory.

[Barrister]

I was wondering the same thing as Marty.  Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country.  Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands.  The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?

The tax havens are pretty lax about entry and work requirements as long as you have the resources, but citizenship is another story.  Caymans, e.g. requires 3-5 years.

Actually getting recognition from the Caymans would not be possible because the Caymans aren't an independent sovereign territory capable of granting recognition.

Even if all the hoops were jumped through, the US (and I assume many other countries as well) would still reserve the right to call inhabitants to account if their actions resulted in criminal consequences in the US (eg drug or weapons trafficking).  For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.

Yeah, citizenship is still a very valuable right, and no recognized country gives that up cheaply.

On a quick google search, apparently the Carribean island nation of Dominica will sell you citizenship for a cool $75,000.

[The Minsky Moment]

For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.

Even in international waters? 

Oh yeah - that's the whole point.

The law applies not only to non-flagged vessels, but to any flagged vessel where the flagging country consents to US search and seizure.  And the US has built up relationships with various common flag of convience countries to get permission.

[Martinus]

I was wondering the same thing as Marty.  Let's say they buy citizenship in the Cayman Islands or some other fake country.  Then they buy recognition of Oilrigistan from the Cayman Islands.  The US no longer has jurisdiction, no?

The tax havens are pretty lax about entry and work requirements as long as you have the resources, but citizenship is another story.  Caymans, e.g. requires 3-5 years.

Actually getting recognition from the Caymans would not be possible because the Caymans aren't an independent sovereign territory capable of granting recognition.

Even if all the hoops were jumped through, the US (and I assume many other countries as well) would still reserve the right to call inhabitants to account if their actions resulted in criminal consequences in the US (eg drug or weapons trafficking).  For example, the US applies its federal drug laws to any stateless (non-flagged) vessel carrying drugs.

Yeah, citizenship is still a very valuable right, and no recognized country gives that up cheaply.

On a quick google search, apparently the Carribean island nation of Dominica will sell you citizenship for a cool $75,000.

Maybe they can get a bulk deal.

[The Minsky Moment]

Ok but that's presumably two countries working on capturing a smuggling operation between them both.

Broader than that: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-5th-circuit/1355913.html

[Razgovory]

I thought Maritime law was the thing Marty knew about.

[Slargos]

No Bioshock references? WTF!

[jimmy olsen]

I did a search for bioshock and nothing popped up.

As you can see, I retracted that statement.

[Jacob]

China Mieville weighed in on this back on 2007: http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3328/

[Josephus]

Also,

Operation Atlantis, an early 1970s New York–based libertarian group that built a concrete-hulled ship called Freedom, which they sailed to the Caribbean, intending to anchor it permanently there as their "territory". The ship sank in a hurricane and the project foundered with it.

Republic of Minerva, another libertarian project that succeeded in building a small man-made island on the Minerva Reefs south of Fiji in 1972 before being ejected by troops from Tonga, who later formally annexed it.

Principality of Freedonia, a libertarian project that tried to lease territory from the Sultan of Awdal in Somaliland in 2001. Resulting public dissatisfaction led to rioting, and the reported death of a Somali.

Oceania (also known as "The Atlantis Project", but unrelated to the 1970s project listed above), another libertarian artificial island project that raised US $400,000 before going bankrupt in 1994

You gotta hand it to the socialists. At least socialist paradises lasted for decades; unlike these fleeting projects.

[Josephus]

I like that approach.  We get to ship the libertarians off to some hellhole far away from us, and we'll get them to actually do it voluntarily all on their own. 

We had this idea with America and religious nuts. They came back.

We?  I don't recall Poles exiling people to the New World.

No. But they came anyways. 

[MadImmortalMan]

You gotta hand it to the socialists. At least socialist paradises lasted for decades; unlike these fleeting projects.

Alas, when you can't rob the masses, it makes it much harder.