http://www.slate.com/id/2296536/
Just...wow.
America! Fuck yeah!
Quoten a pediatrician in Ocala (http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/news/100729867) asked the mother of a young child whether she kept guns in the home. She refused to answer because, as she put it, "whether I have a gun has nothing to do with the health of my child."
Though I have to agree. What fucking business is that of his?
The Boggle test?
A country as big as the US produces a lot of wacky things.
I've never had a doc ask me about my guns. I'd give a list in full detail. What she gonna do, lecture me?
Please. I'd have the twins punch her in the fart box.
Quote from: Slargos on June 09, 2011, 12:25:34 PM
America! Fuck yeah!
Quoten a pediatrician in Ocala (http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/news/100729867) asked the mother of a young child whether she kept guns in the home. She refused to answer because, as she put it, "whether I have a gun has nothing to do with the health of my child."
Though I have to agree. What fucking business is that of his?
Like the article says, it is up there with asking other basic questions about household safety, like "Do you have a pool?" If the answer is yes, then doctor can follow up with "Is your pool adequately secured from your new toddler walking into it and drowning?"
It isn't his business per se, but then, so what? It's not like the doctor can do anything with the information other than provide you with advice, like "Are you aware that accidents with guns kill X children a year, mostly because they are improperly stored? Make sure your guns are locked/stored correctly..."
And really, if the patient/parent doesn't think it is their business, isn't there a pretty obvious recourse. Just tell him you aren't interested in answering the question! Why do you need the state to protect you from it being asked???
I mean seriously, the concern here is that this is all some part of a secret conspiracy to use Obamacare to take away your guns? How fucking wacked out do you have to be to believe something like that?
I think the problem was not so much that he asked, but when she told refused to answer, he basically refused to treat her child and told her to find another pediatrician. It would seem to me at that point, his proper professional response would have been to explain why he was asking.
The tea partiers are going to be pissed about another incident where the government gets involved in the patient doctor relationship.
Quote from: Berkut on June 09, 2011, 12:56:33 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 09, 2011, 12:25:34 PM
America! Fuck yeah!
Quoten a pediatrician in Ocala (http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/news/100729867) asked the mother of a young child whether she kept guns in the home. She refused to answer because, as she put it, "whether I have a gun has nothing to do with the health of my child."
Though I have to agree. What fucking business is that of his?
Like the article says, it is up there with asking other basic questions about household safety, like "Do you have a pool?" If the answer is yes, then doctor can follow up with "Is your pool adequately secured from your new toddler walking into it and drowning?"
It isn't his business per se, but then, so what? It's not like the doctor can do anything with the information other than provide you with advice, like "Are you aware that accidents with guns kill X children a year, mostly because they are improperly stored? Make sure your guns are locked/stored correctly..."
And really, if the patient/parent doesn't think it is their business, isn't there a pretty obvious recourse. Just tell him you aren't interested in answering the question! Why do you need the state to protect you from it being asked???
I mean seriously, the concern here is that this is all some part of a secret conspiracy to use Obamacare to take away your guns? How fucking wacked out do you have to be to believe something like that?
I understand what you're saying, but I think it sounds like the good Doctor has an axe to grind. According to the article, they did tell him they thought it wasn't his business, and he then didn't want to deal with them. I doubt they would've gotten the same reaction if they thought whether or not they have a pool is none of his business.
Quote from: dps on June 09, 2011, 04:26:41 PM
I think the problem was not so much that he asked, but when she told refused to answer, he basically refused to treat her child and told her to find another pediatrician. It would seem to me at that point, his proper professional response would have been to explain why he was asking.
Seems he normally answers why he asked that question but didn't because she was such a bitch. Perhaps he just didn't want to deal with someone like that.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 09, 2011, 04:44:10 PM
Quote from: dps on June 09, 2011, 04:26:41 PM
I think the problem was not so much that he asked, but when she told refused to answer, he basically refused to treat her child and told her to find another pediatrician. It would seem to me at that point, his proper professional response would have been to explain why he was asking.
Seems he normally answers why he asked that question but didn't because she was such a bitch. Perhaps he just didn't want to deal with someone like that.
I've no idea, but do private practice docs have any discretion in who they see?
Quote from: Slargos on June 09, 2011, 04:38:06 PMI understand what you're saying, but I think it sounds like the good Doctor has an axe to grind. According to the article, they did tell him they thought it wasn't his business, and he then didn't want to deal with them. I doubt they would've gotten the same reaction if they thought whether or not they have a pool is none of his business.
Doctors, who possess the authority to determine, diagnose and prescribe a plan of action for causes of injury, suicidal idiations; therefore, they also possess the authority to determine the risk involved, and what measures should be implemented to increase the patient's wellness.
And, should patients choose not to participate in the clinical dialogue, doctors also possess the right to "not deal with them".
Doctors every day terminate their relations with patients who choose not to participate in the doctor-patient dialectic regarding their health. Don't want to listen to me for the last 4 years about controlling your illicit drug use/diabetes/alcoholism/unhealthy livestyle/guns in the house with little children? Find another doctor.
:huh:
QuotePediatricians are trained—indeed, they are explicitly advised by the American Academy of Pediatrics—to inquire about the presence of open containers of bleach, swimming pools, balloons, and toilet locks in the homes of their patients.
Wouldn't raising the insurance rates of gun owners make sense, and be socially desirable?
I am very confused. Why would a doctor ask anything about household safety? :unsure:
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
I am very confused. Why would a doctor ask anything about household safety? :unsure:
Doctors are often used to dispense advice on health and injury prevention in the civilized world.
Quote from: Neil on June 09, 2011, 07:19:01 PM
Wouldn't raising the insurance rates of gun owners make sense, and be socially desirable?
Raising what insurance rates?
Quote from: Neil on June 09, 2011, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
I am very confused. Why would a doctor ask anything about household safety? :unsure:
Doctors are often used to dispense advice on health and injury prevention in the civilized world.
This really boggles the mind. You see a doctor if you have an infection, in order to get the drugs that need prescription. You don't talk to a doctor because you need "advice". Especially on injury prevention. That is so outside a doctor's job description that you may as well ask for the safest way to replace a light bulb.
Quote from: Habbaku on June 09, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Quote from: Neil on June 09, 2011, 07:19:01 PM
Wouldn't raising the insurance rates of gun owners make sense, and be socially desirable?
Raising what insurance rates?
Health insurance, for starters. Homeowner's insurance would be good too.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: Neil on June 09, 2011, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
I am very confused. Why would a doctor ask anything about household safety? :unsure:
Doctors are often used to dispense advice on health and injury prevention in the civilized world.
This really boggles the mind. You see a doctor if you have an infection, in order to get the drugs that need prescription. You don't talk to a doctor because you need "advice". Especially on injury prevention. That is so outside a doctor's job description that you may as well ask for the safest way to replace a light bulb.
Hey, you guys talk to doctors when you feel like eating the penis of an endangered animal. Who are you to say what's right?
Quote from: Neil on June 09, 2011, 07:57:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: Neil on June 09, 2011, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
I am very confused. Why would a doctor ask anything about household safety? :unsure:
Doctors are often used to dispense advice on health and injury prevention in the civilized world.
This really boggles the mind. You see a doctor if you have an infection, in order to get the drugs that need prescription. You don't talk to a doctor because you need "advice". Especially on injury prevention. That is so outside a doctor's job description that you may as well ask for the safest way to replace a light bulb.
Hey, you guys talk to doctors when you feel like eating the penis of an endangered animal. Who are you to say what's right?
This. Like a slope-eyed motherfucker. HERE HAVE MORE RHINO HORN AND TIGER PENIS OH WAIT THERE ISNT ANY MORE
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: Neil on June 09, 2011, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
I am very confused. Why would a doctor ask anything about household safety? :unsure:
Doctors are often used to dispense advice on health and injury prevention in the civilized world.
This really boggles the mind. You see a doctor if you have an infection, in order to get the drugs that need prescription. You don't talk to a doctor because you need "advice". Especially on injury prevention. That is so outside a doctor's job description that you may as well ask for the safest way to replace a light bulb.
Umm preventative medicine?
Quote from: garbon on June 09, 2011, 05:12:50 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 09, 2011, 04:44:10 PM
Quote from: dps on June 09, 2011, 04:26:41 PM
I think the problem was not so much that he asked, but when she told refused to answer, he basically refused to treat her child and told her to find another pediatrician. It would seem to me at that point, his proper professional response would have been to explain why he was asking.
Seems he normally answers why he asked that question but didn't because she was such a bitch. Perhaps he just didn't want to deal with someone like that.
I've no idea, but do private practice docs have any discretion in who they see?
AFAIK, yeah.
Quote from: garbon on June 09, 2011, 08:17:01 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: Neil on June 09, 2011, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
I am very confused. Why would a doctor ask anything about household safety? :unsure:
Doctors are often used to dispense advice on health and injury prevention in the civilized world.
This really boggles the mind. You see a doctor if you have an infection, in order to get the drugs that need prescription. You don't talk to a doctor because you need "advice". Especially on injury prevention. That is so outside a doctor's job description that you may as well ask for the safest way to replace a light bulb.
Umm preventative medicine?
Doctors are responsible for treating illnesses after they have happened. Patients engage in preventative medicine ourselves. Stuff like healthy eating.
And I find it very, very hard to classify household safety as part of medicine. There are a gazillion ways in which I can injure myself in my home. I can fall down from a ladder, I can slip in the bathtub (actually my grandmother died that way), objects not securely fastened can fall down and hit my head, I can improperly use training equipment and sustain injuries...can I ask a doctor about any of these? I'll be (rightly) regarded as crazy if I do.
Do doctors in the west really advise patients about how not to fall down a swimming pool? How much time do they have on their hands, anyway? I think the average consultation time I get is about 3 minutes, 5 if the doctor has a really slow day. To talk about swimming pools when they have 50 people waiting in line is nuts.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 08:42:55 PM
Doctors are responsible for treating illnesses after they have happened. Patients engage in preventative medicine ourselves. Stuff like healthy eating.
I'm just telling you how it is. In a world of ever increasing medical costs, preventative medicine is now a big deal.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 08:56:42 PM
And I find it very, very hard to classify household safety as part of medicine. There are a gazillion ways in which I can injure myself in my home. I can fall down from a ladder, I can slip in the bathtub (actually my grandmother died that way), objects not securely fastened can fall down and hit my head, I can improperly use training equipment and sustain injuries...can I ask a doctor about any of these? I'll be (rightly) regarded as crazy if I do.
Do doctors in the west really advise patients about how not to fall down a swimming pool? How much time do they have on their hands, anyway? I think the average consultation time I get is about 3 minutes, 5 if the doctor has a really slow day. To talk about swimming pools when they have 50 people waiting in line is nuts.
Peds don't normally have 50 patients waiting in line. And yes, I think it is important that they cover safety basics, especially with first time parents.
I'll be very surprised if a pediatrician treats fewer than 100 cases a day. The real number is probably a lot higher. No wonder your medical costs go up, when your doctors waste precious time to cover household safety, of all things. If I were a parent, I'll welcome that as very useful and practical advice. I just never expect it to come from a doctor.
Quote from: garbon on June 09, 2011, 09:01:33 PM
I'm just telling you how it is. In a world of ever increasing medical costs, preventative medicine is now a big deal.
Gun ownership isn't medicine, preventative or otherwise. I'm with those who say it's none of the doctor's business. Not sure it needs a law though.
Quote from: Slargos on June 09, 2011, 04:38:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 09, 2011, 12:56:33 PM
Quote from: Slargos on June 09, 2011, 12:25:34 PM
America! Fuck yeah!
Quoten a pediatrician in Ocala (http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/news/100729867) asked the mother of a young child whether she kept guns in the home. She refused to answer because, as she put it, "whether I have a gun has nothing to do with the health of my child."
Though I have to agree. What fucking business is that of his?
Like the article says, it is up there with asking other basic questions about household safety, like "Do you have a pool?" If the answer is yes, then doctor can follow up with "Is your pool adequately secured from your new toddler walking into it and drowning?"
It isn't his business per se, but then, so what? It's not like the doctor can do anything with the information other than provide you with advice, like "Are you aware that accidents with guns kill X children a year, mostly because they are improperly stored? Make sure your guns are locked/stored correctly..."
And really, if the patient/parent doesn't think it is their business, isn't there a pretty obvious recourse. Just tell him you aren't interested in answering the question! Why do you need the state to protect you from it being asked???
I mean seriously, the concern here is that this is all some part of a secret conspiracy to use Obamacare to take away your guns? How fucking wacked out do you have to be to believe something like that?
I understand what you're saying, but I think it sounds like the good Doctor has an axe to grind. According to the article, they did tell him they thought it wasn't his business, and he then didn't want to deal with them. I doubt they would've gotten the same reaction if they thought whether or not they have a pool is none of his business.
So what though? Maybe the doctor is a douchebag, so find another one. Why does the government need to get involved? Because there is a report that one doctor somewhere is an asshole, the state needs to then step in and tell every doctor everywhere what they can and cannot ask their patients?
Quote from: Maximus on June 09, 2011, 09:23:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 09, 2011, 09:01:33 PM
I'm just telling you how it is. In a world of ever increasing medical costs, preventative medicine is now a big deal.
Gun ownership isn't medicine, preventative or otherwise. I'm with those who say it's none of the doctor's business. Not sure it needs a law though.
Not only am I quite sure it doesn't need a law, I would even question the Constitutionality of said law.
Quote from: Maximus on June 09, 2011, 09:23:04 PM
Gun ownership isn't medicine, preventative or otherwise. I'm with those who say it's none of the doctor's business. Not sure it needs a law though.
Neither are pool ownership or babygates put in bad positions. What they all are is potential vectors for injury or death to young children, so yeah- the pediatrician could use the info. If it were an oncologist, sure, I'd say tell 'em to take a hike.
And Mono, that view of healthcare is just retarded. Self-diagnosis is generally no good. You get an infection from a cut finger and need antibiotics, then no, odds are you don't need a doctor to tell you what's wrong with that. But there are so many subtle problems that you can't pick up on your own, like sepsis (blood infection). By the time you see obvious symptoms of sepsis, you're screwed and should probably just be picking out your coffin.
Lets make one thing clear - this law has nothing to do with whether or not these questions are the doctors business or not. Note that it does not tell doctors they cannot ask question that are not medically pertinent, it only restricts them from asking very specific questions about guns.
This is about some fucking nutjobs idiocy in believeing that the government wants to get their guns and is going to use the healthcare system to do it.
Now that the Second Amendment has been saved, it is armed and dangerous and looking to take out the other amendments. Starting with the first . . .
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 09:20:10 PM
I'll be very surprised if a pediatrician treats fewer than 100 cases a day. The real number is probably a lot higher. No wonder your medical costs go up, when your doctors waste precious time to cover household safety, of all things. If I were a parent, I'll welcome that as very useful and practical advice. I just never expect it to come from a doctor.
I'd be rather surprised if a typical American pediatricain in private practice treats more than a couple dozen patients in a day, though I'm just guessing.
I dunno. In my mind a Doctor is a mechanic, not a teacher. If you've gone through high school you should know that guns should be treated with care, and that it's not good to go swimming if you're wearing your platemail. Should he refuse care because they drive a car without ABS?
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 03:42:51 AM
I dunno. In my mind a Doctor is a mechanic, not a teacher. If you've gone through high school you should know that guns should be treated with care, and that it's not good to go swimming if you're wearing your platemail. Should he refuse care because they drive a car without ABS?
Don't mix your red herrings, please.
Quote from: grumbler on June 10, 2011, 06:30:10 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 03:42:51 AM
I dunno. In my mind a Doctor is a mechanic, not a teacher. If you've gone through high school you should know that guns should be treated with care, and that it's not good to go swimming if you're wearing your platemail. Should he refuse care because they drive a car without ABS?
Don't mix your red herrings, please.
A penny in the bucket is worth a whole haystack. :hug:
Quote from: DontSayBanana on June 09, 2011, 10:26:21 PM
Neither are pool ownership or babygates put in bad positions. What they all are is potential vectors for injury or death to young children, so yeah- the pediatrician could use the info. If it were an oncologist, sure, I'd say tell 'em to take a hike.
Those are none of his business either unless he can provide an inoculation against drowning or falling.
Quote from: Maximus on June 10, 2011, 08:04:30 AM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on June 09, 2011, 10:26:21 PM
Neither are pool ownership or babygates put in bad positions. What they all are is potential vectors for injury or death to young children, so yeah- the pediatrician could use the info. If it were an oncologist, sure, I'd say tell 'em to take a hike.
Those are none of his business either unless he can provide an inoculation against drowning or falling.
Why do people keep going on about what is and is not his business?
Surely that is a determination for the doctor and his patients to make, isn't it?
I would *welcome* such questions from my pediatrician, and in fact our doctor is perfectly willing to talk to us about all kinds of things. She sure as hell does not sit around worrying about what the State will or will not allow her to talk about. But even that isn't really relevant - what *I* think is appropriate or not has no bearing on the what ought to be legislated either.
What is scary about stuff like this is that the state is actually sticking its nose into the doctor-patient relationship. The basic idea that doctors should have to worry about what they talk about with a patient because if they ask the wrong thing, they could lose their license should be rather obviously a terrible fucking idea. The repercussions are ridiculous.
Does this mean doctors will now have to make sure they have a witness for every interaction with their patients, to protect them from a charge that they asked something they are not allowed to ask? What will that do to doctor-patient confidentiality, trust and relationships?
There are so many obviously bad second order consequences to legislation like this. How can something like this actually get passed, anywhere???
I've already conceded that the law is unnecessary. I've gone on to talking about what an ass the doctor is. Just a different conversation, that's all.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 09, 2011, 10:37:03 PM
Now that the Second Amendment has been saved, it is armed and dangerous and looking to take out the other amendments. Starting with the first . . .
QFT.
Although, the Supreme Court has agreed that lawyers cannot advise certain clients engaged in criminal activities how to stop engaging in criminal activities. This is likely the next step.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 09, 2011, 10:37:03 PM
Now that the Second Amendment has been saved, it is armed and dangerous and looking to take out the other amendments. Starting with the first . . .
No shit.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 09, 2011, 10:37:03 PM
Now that the Second Amendment has been saved, it is armed and dangerous and looking to take out the other amendments. Starting with the first . . .
I was about to say...it is a crime to ask people a question?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 09, 2011, 06:28:38 PM
:huh:QuotePediatricians are trained—indeed, they are explicitly advised by the American Academy of Pediatrics—to inquire about the presence of open containers of bleach, swimming pools, balloons, and toilet locks in the homes of their patients.
Wouldn't want your kid to drown himself while trying to drink out of the toilet.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 07:47:45 PM
This really boggles the mind. You see a doctor if you have an infection, in order to get the drugs that need prescription. You don't talk to a doctor because you need "advice". Especially on injury prevention. That is so outside a doctor's job description that you may as well ask for the safest way to replace a light bulb.
Um this is a pediatrician. A Doctor for children. He is trying to inform the parents about how to kid-proof the house so the child will not injure itself. Pediatricians inform parents about alot of things like what phase of its developement their child is in and what its needs are.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 09, 2011, 08:56:42 PM
Do doctors in the west really advise patients about how not to fall down a swimming pool?
Any idiot can have a child, and that is not a hypothetical.
So yes - some pediatricians as a practical cautionary measure remind parents of potential household dangers they may not focus on.
Even for adults - doctors may remind patients of the dangers of unhealthy habits. My doc tells me to cut down on the brandy and exercise more, even though the benefits of such a course of action are not unknown to me. If that offends me, I have a very handy recourse - I can tell him to go stuff himself and get a new doctor. What I don't do -- because my health problems do not include a severe case of fascism -- is petition the legislature to take a big dump on the Constitution and order my physician about what he can and cannot say. You would think the gun nuts of all people should get that.
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2011, 08:56:38 AM
Um this is a pediatrician. A Doctor for children. He is trying to inform the parents about how to kid-proof the house so the child will not injure itself. Pediatricians inform parents about alot of things like what phase of its developement their child is in and what its needs are.
That is a teacher's job. I've seen maybe 10-20 pediatricians in my life (I was very weak when I was a kid). They did nothing except treat my flu or stomach problems.
I 100% agree that it is insane for the government to legislate about what a doctor can or cannot ask. That actually sounds like a piece of legislation proposed by the Politburo in Beijing, not the self-proclaimed land of liberty :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on June 10, 2011, 09:34:12 AM
That is a teacher's job.
:huh:
How is a teacher qualified to give health and child safety advice?
But anyway that is idiotic kids do not start school until at the very least 2 1/2. You probably need information about raising a healthy child before then.
QuoteI've seen maybe 10-20 pediatricians in my life (I was very weak when I was a kid). They did nothing except treat my flu or stomach problems.
So you remember checkups from when you were a baby and toddler? I am jealous most of my memories start when I am about 4.
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2011, 09:38:10 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 10, 2011, 09:34:12 AM
That is a teacher's job.
:huh:
How is a teacher qualified to give health and child safety advice?
But anyway that is idiotic kids do not start school until at the very least 2 1/2. You probably need information about raising a healthy child before then.
:lol:
I don't think he meant the
child's teacher's job.
Education should be good enough that you understand why keeping a loaded and cocked revolver in the kid's playpen might be a bad idea.
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 09:42:26 AM
Education should be good enough that you understand why keeping a loaded and cocked revolver in the kid's playpen might be a bad idea.
I do not remember my common sense classes in school.
But just having a gun anywhere in the house not locked up is dangerous. Also there are lots of things you do not think of when you have a kid around. My pediatrician just gave me a sheet with things to keep in mind. I should have ripped it up and just said I remembered by English classes in High School.
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2011, 09:43:31 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 09:42:26 AM
Education should be good enough that you understand why keeping a loaded and cocked revolver in the kid's playpen might be a bad idea.
I do not remember my common sense classes in school.
But just having a gun anywhere in the house not locked up is dangerous.
If the kid can't find the gun, it will have plenty easy access to knives. :ph34r:
Maybe it's a cultural thing. Doctor's orders, and all that. I can't really remember ever having encountered that type of general life-advice from medical practicioners unless it's directly related to a malady. My optician used to scold me over too long hours infront of the computer screen. Of course, it would be equally valid for him to ask me whether I like to stare into the sun for hours on end, but that kind of inquiry would make be a bit puzzled.
But I don't really know how pediatricians work.
Edit: Saw your addition.
QuoteMy pediatrician just gave me a sheet with things to keep in mind. I should have ripped it up and just said I remembered by English classes in High School.
No, you're obviously free to take the advice of your Doctor. However, it just seems outlandish to me that he should refuse service because of a thing like this. Should he also refuse service if they don't want to baby-proof their kitchen cabinets, or install a gate at the stairs?
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 09:48:08 AM
But I don't really know how pediatricians work.
QFT
Heh, this is a silly debate. When you are a first-time parent, chances are you are going to want all the safety advice from actual trained professionals you can get (as opposed to useless advice that tends to get heaped on new parents by the usual suspects). You are going to want your doc to tell you as much as he can. Not all of the precautions are instantly obvious and even smart people make mistakes.
Resenting him because it 'isn't his job' is just odd.
Quote from: Malthus on June 10, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
Heh, this is a silly debate. When you are a first-time parent, chances are you are going to want all the safety advice from actual trained professionals you can get (as opposed to useless advice that tends to get heaped on new parents by the usual suspects). You are going to want your doc to tell you as much as he can. Not all of the precautions are instantly obvious and even smart people make mistakes.
Resenting him because it 'isn't his job' is just odd.
Yes, as I have stated earlier in this thread, if I were a parent I will welcome the advice. I just don't understand why the doctor will want to give out such advice. He should be seeing his next patient, not talking swimming pool with me.
Quote from: Malthus on June 10, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
Heh, this is a silly debate. When you are a first-time parent, chances are you are going to want all the safety advice from actual trained professionals you can get (as opposed to useless advice that tends to get heaped on new parents by the usual suspects). You are going to want your doc to tell you as much as he can. Not all of the precautions are instantly obvious and even smart people make mistakes.
Resenting him because it 'isn't his job' is just odd.
No, I don't think anyone is doing that.
If I wanted advice on how to care for a baby, at the top of my list would be my pediatrician (or rather, at least in the top three, like Monoriu notes I don't think I'd bother him for advice on how to store firearms) for obvious reasons. However, I think I would probably be pretty pissed if my pediatrician
demanded answers to questions I felt were none of his business.
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 09:48:08 AM
No, you're obviously free to take the advice of your Doctor. However, it just seems outlandish to me that he should refuse service because of a thing like this. Should he also refuse service if they don't want to baby-proof their kitchen cabinets, or install a gate at the stairs?
Ok that would be ridiculous. He just gives me advice he does not ask me for a report as to the extent I am doing his bidding. Granted if he did I would tell him I was regardless of whether I was or not.
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 09:56:04 AM
However, I think I would probably be pretty pissed if my pediatrician demanded answers to questions I felt were none of his business.
Then you should get a new pediatrician, not establish a state censorship regime.
What next - if catholics think their priest is being too pushy in confession, should we get a bureaucrat assigned to the booth to audit? That way we can trash separation along with free speech - wouldn't want to leave any of the First Amendment live and kicking.
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2011, 09:59:45 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 09:48:08 AM
No, you're obviously free to take the advice of your Doctor. However, it just seems outlandish to me that he should refuse service because of a thing like this. Should he also refuse service if they don't want to baby-proof their kitchen cabinets, or install a gate at the stairs?
Ok that would be ridiculous. He just gives me advice he does not ask me for a report as to the extent I am doing his bidding. Granted if he did I would tell him I was regardless of whether I was or not.
Yup.
QuoteThe scuffle over "docs vs. Glocks (http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_tampa/NRA-says-the-firearm-privacy-bill-aka-Docs-vs-Glocks-HB-155-takes-politics-out-of-exam-room)" seems to have started when a pediatrician in Ocala (http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/news/100729867) asked the mother of a young child whether she kept guns in the home. She refused to answer because, as she put it, "whether I have a gun has nothing to do with the health of my child." When the doctor told her to find another pediatrician, the women threatened to call a lawyer.
Now, I'm certainly open to the possibility that we're not getting the entire story, but if taken at face value, this Doctor is a fucking asshole and doesn't deserve to keep his license [And before you interject, grumbler, I'll note that this is my opinion on the issue and it clearly has no legal backing, by "deserve" I mean in a moral sense, not any practical one you nit picking son of a whore]
If she refuses to answer questions with immediate medical relevance, I can see why he'd be unable to work with her. This is not such a question.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 10, 2011, 10:06:33 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 09:56:04 AM
However, I think I would probably be pretty pissed if my pediatrician demanded answers to questions I felt were none of his business.
Then you should get a new pediatrician, not establish a state censorship regime.
What next - if catholics think their priest is being too pushy in confession, should we get a bureaucrat assigned to the booth to audit? That way we can trash separation along with free speech - wouldn't want to leave any of the First Amendment live and kicking.
No argument there. I don't think anyone in this thread has expressed that they think it is a good law.
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 09:56:04 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 10, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
Heh, this is a silly debate. When you are a first-time parent, chances are you are going to want all the safety advice from actual trained professionals you can get (as opposed to useless advice that tends to get heaped on new parents by the usual suspects). You are going to want your doc to tell you as much as he can. Not all of the precautions are instantly obvious and even smart people make mistakes.
Resenting him because it 'isn't his job' is just odd.
No, I don't think anyone is doing that.
If I wanted advice on how to care for a baby, at the top of my list would be my pediatrician (or rather, at least in the top three, like Monoriu notes I don't think I'd bother him for advice on how to store firearms) for obvious reasons. However, I think I would probably be pretty pissed if my pediatrician demanded answers to questions I felt were none of his business.
Whether the doc was an asshole in the way he went about giving out advice in the OP story by demanding answers (let alone whether a law was a reasonable response to this alleged 'problem' :lol: ) are seperate issues.
The "debate" I'm referring to is the silly notion that docs have no business advising patients about these matters in the first place.
Quote from: Berkut on June 10, 2011, 08:13:13 AM
There are so many obviously bad second order consequences to legislation like this. How can something like this actually get passed, anywhere???
I think there are two underlying reasons:
1) Stanley Ann Dunham chose a black dude to get knocked up by.
2) The product of that knocking up decided to be a Democrat.
That's really all there is to that paranoia, everything else is just a rationalization.
Quote from: Malthus on June 10, 2011, 10:12:49 AM
The "debate" I'm referring to is the silly notion that docs have no business advising patients about these matters in the first place.
They have no business forcing that advice on the patient.
I blame Dr. Spock for the pussification of parents.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 10, 2011, 10:20:09 AM
I blame Dr. Spock for the pussification of parents.
Back in your day your parents forced you to walk uphill to school bothways in the snow with a loaded Walther P38 amiright?
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2011, 10:22:22 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 10, 2011, 10:20:09 AM
I blame Dr. Spock for the pussification of parents.
Back in your day your parents forced you to walk uphill to school bothways in the snow with a loaded Walther P38 amiright?
We were allowed to walk to school, yes.
And we had Brownings.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 10, 2011, 09:55:43 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 10, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
Heh, this is a silly debate. When you are a first-time parent, chances are you are going to want all the safety advice from actual trained professionals you can get (as opposed to useless advice that tends to get heaped on new parents by the usual suspects). You are going to want your doc to tell you as much as he can. Not all of the precautions are instantly obvious and even smart people make mistakes.
Resenting him because it 'isn't his job' is just odd.
Yes, as I have stated earlier in this thread, if I were a parent I will welcome the advice. I just don't understand why the doctor will want to give out such advice. He should be seeing his next patient, not talking swimming pool with me.
Maybe he wants to do his job? :huh: You seem to have an extremely inflexible idea of what a pediatrician's job description is, and assume that it cannot be anything else than what you think it is. Ever heard the saying: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?"
Quote from: DGuller on June 10, 2011, 10:25:09 AM
Maybe he wants to do his job? :huh: You seem to have an extremely inflexible idea of what a pediatrician's job description is, and assume that it cannot be anything else than what you think it is. Ever heard the saying: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?"
I think my problem is that I consider quick service an important part of good service. Waiting 2 hours to see a doctor is not fun. I'll be very pissed if the wait is due to the doctor talking swimming pool and guns with other patients.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 10, 2011, 10:30:32 AM
I think my problem is that I consider quick service an important part of good service. Waiting 2 hours to see a doctor is not fun. I'll be very pissed if the wait is due to the doctor talking swimming pool and guns with other patients.
Maybe you shouldn't show up 2 hours before your appointment and maybe you should stop seeing your pediatrician and see a doctor for adults :P
But even with safety discussions here in the US your appointments are rarely longer than 20 minutes...maybe 5 minutes with the doctor. Mostly he just says 'oh and keep these things in mind to keep your kid safe'.
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2011, 10:32:58 AM
Maybe you shouldn't show up 2 hours before your appointment and maybe you should stop seeing your pediatrician and see a doctor for adults :P
But even with safety discussions here in the US your appointments are rarely longer than 20 minutes...maybe 5 minutes with the doctor. Mostly he just says 'oh and keep these things in mind to keep your kid safe'.
Doctors in HK generally take in about twice or three times the number of patients as they should. Appointment times are always "indicative" only.
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 09:56:04 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 10, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
Heh, this is a silly debate. When you are a first-time parent, chances are you are going to want all the safety advice from actual trained professionals you can get (as opposed to useless advice that tends to get heaped on new parents by the usual suspects). You are going to want your doc to tell you as much as he can. Not all of the precautions are instantly obvious and even smart people make mistakes.
Resenting him because it 'isn't his job' is just odd.
No, I don't think anyone is doing that.
If I wanted advice on how to care for a baby, at the top of my list would be my pediatrician (or rather, at least in the top three, like Monoriu notes I don't think I'd bother him for advice on how to store firearms) for obvious reasons. However, I think I would probably be pretty pissed if my pediatrician demanded answers to questions I felt were none of his business.
I agree. In which case I would find another pediatrician.
I don't know about the slopes, but the only time I've been received as scheduled to an appointment was the time I was rushed into surgery.
Last time I went to the doctor for a scheduled appointment, I had to spend an hour in his waiting room (15 minutes early, he was 45 minutes late) and it's typically the same thing at the dentist. Of course, if I'm late they'll still charge me even if they were running late themselves. Fucking racket. Soviets. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Monoriu on June 10, 2011, 10:35:21 AM
Doctors in HK generally take in about twice or three times the number of patients as they should. Appointment times are always "indicative" only.
I figured I was joking with you ;)
But mainly understand that despite what that article may say American Doctors want to get you in and out as soon as they can so they can see more patients. These discussions on child safety are usually very short.
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 10:37:33 AM
I don't know about the slopes, but the only time I've been received as scheduled to an appointment was the time I was rushed into surgery.
Last time I went to the doctor for a scheduled appointment, I had to spend an hour in his waiting room (15 minutes early, he was 45 minutes late) and it's typically the same thing at the dentist. Of course, if I'm late they'll still charge me even if they were running late themselves. Fucking racket. Soviets. :rolleyes:
Wow that is outrageous. I hope they at least have a TV and decent magazines in the waiting room.
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2011, 10:38:55 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 10:37:33 AM
I don't know about the slopes, but the only time I've been received as scheduled to an appointment was the time I was rushed into surgery.
Last time I went to the doctor for a scheduled appointment, I had to spend an hour in his waiting room (15 minutes early, he was 45 minutes late) and it's typically the same thing at the dentist. Of course, if I'm late they'll still charge me even if they were running late themselves. Fucking racket. Soviets. :rolleyes:
Wow that is outrageous. I hope they at least have a TV and decent magazines in the waiting room.
2 copies of Highlights. From 2002.
Quote from: Valmy on June 10, 2011, 10:38:55 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 10:37:33 AM
I don't know about the slopes, but the only time I've been received as scheduled to an appointment was the time I was rushed into surgery.
Last time I went to the doctor for a scheduled appointment, I had to spend an hour in his waiting room (15 minutes early, he was 45 minutes late) and it's typically the same thing at the dentist. Of course, if I'm late they'll still charge me even if they were running late themselves. Fucking racket. Soviets. :rolleyes:
Wow that is outrageous. I hope they at least have a TV and decent magazines in the waiting room.
Not really. It was just jam packed with sniveling social parasites and gossip magazines. "Universal" healthcare ain't all it's cracked up to be.
I like it when everybody in the waiting room tries to talk to me.
Them:So, How did you break your leg?
Me: Kicking people that talk to me.
Them: .....
Woman with cold: What a cute child.....
Me: GET YOUR DISEASED PAWS AWAY FROM HER!
Wwc: WELL I NEVER!
Quote from: Slargos on June 10, 2011, 10:37:33 AM
I don't know about the slopes, but the only time I've been received as scheduled to an appointment was the time I was rushed into surgery.
Last time I went to the doctor for a scheduled appointment, I had to spend an hour in his waiting room (15 minutes early, he was 45 minutes late) and it's typically the same thing at the dentist. Of course, if I'm late they'll still charge me even if they were running late themselves. Fucking racket. Soviets. :rolleyes:
Don't tell me you went to a doctor in Norway. Jesus.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 10, 2011, 10:45:20 AM
I like it when everybody in the waiting room tries to talk to me.
Them:So, How did you break your leg?
Me: Kicking people that talk to me.
Them: .....
Woman with cold: What a cute child.....
Me: GET YOUR DISEASED PAWS AWAY FROM HER!
Wwc: WELL I NEVER!
Huh. Maybe you just look like a friendly type. People don't talk to me in waiting rooms. In fact, people tend to avoid making eye-contact with me as much as possible.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 10, 2011, 10:58:03 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 10, 2011, 10:45:20 AM
I like it when everybody in the waiting room tries to talk to me.
Them:So, How did you break your leg?
Me: Kicking people that talk to me.
Them: .....
Woman with cold: What a cute child.....
Me: GET YOUR DISEASED PAWS AWAY FROM HER!
Wwc: WELL I NEVER!
Huh. Maybe you just look like a friendly type. People don't talk to me in waiting rooms. In fact, people tend to avoid making eye-contact with me as much as possible.
I'm reading or holding my kid. THAT MEANS LEAVE ME ALONE. People today are nosy fucks that need a good punch in the snout to remember their manners.
Hell, I've pretended to be asleep, and people bother me.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 10, 2011, 10:35:21 AM
Doctors in HK generally take in about twice or three times the number of patients as they should. Appointment times are always "indicative" only.
Well, that's the problem. Your doctors are just shafting you by giving you shitty care as quickly as possible to maximize their patient intake. You should be complaining about that type of behaviour, not using it to justify doctors not trying to get their patients to practice preventive medicine.
Quote from: dps on June 10, 2011, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 10, 2011, 10:35:21 AM
Doctors in HK generally take in about twice or three times the number of patients as they should. Appointment times are always "indicative" only.
Well, that's the problem. Your doctors are just shafting you by giving you shitty care as quickly as possible to maximize their patient intake. You should be complaining about that type of behaviour, not using it to justify doctors not trying to get their patients to practice preventive medicine.
Like I said, quick service and short waiting times are very important to me. If they all start to spend 10 minutes on each patient I'll be screwed.
Quote from: Maximus on June 10, 2011, 08:16:01 AM
I've already conceded that the law is unnecessary. I've gone on to talking about what an ass the doctor is. Just a different conversation, that's all.
How long have you known him? Or are you declaring him an ass based on some assumption that hearing a fragment of a story entitles you to reach snap decisions about assholiness?
If the latter, who is the ass here?
Quote from: Monoriu on June 10, 2011, 07:13:47 PM
Like I said, quick service and short waiting times are very important to me. If they all start to spend 10 minutes on each patient I'll be screwed.
Is accuracy and helpfulness of the service not important?
Quote from: grumbler on June 10, 2011, 07:34:35 PM
Quote from: Maximus on June 10, 2011, 08:16:01 AM
I've already conceded that the law is unnecessary. I've gone on to talking about what an ass the doctor is. Just a different conversation, that's all.
How long have you known him? Or are you declaring him an ass based on some assumption that hearing a fragment of a story entitles you to reach snap decisions about assholiness?
If the latter, who is the ass here?
:lmfao:
You provide much entertainment, grumbleR.
Quote from: garbon on June 11, 2011, 03:18:42 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 10, 2011, 07:13:47 PM
Like I said, quick service and short waiting times are very important to me. If they all start to spend 10 minutes on each patient I'll be screwed.
Is accuracy and helpfulness of the service not important?
Life is about tradeoffs. There are only so many doctors relative to patient demand. If you increase consultation time per patient, you increase waiting times. It is that simple. Waiting times are already close to intolerable. I really do not want longer waiting times so that the doctor can do some nice to haves.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 11, 2011, 06:38:16 PM
Life is about tradeoffs. There are only so many doctors relative to patient demand. If you increase consultation time per patient, you increase waiting times. It is that simple. Waiting times are already close to intolerable. I really do not want longer waiting times so that the doctor can do some nice to haves.
I'm sorry that you have such a terrible medical system.
I think preventative medicine (in all its forms, not just this case which is a questionable example) is important as it can keep people from developing and suffering from conditions down the road.