Poll
Question:
As a freerider at the outset of the War, who would you pledge your sword to?
Option 1: Joffrey Baratheon
votes: 2
Option 2: Stannis Baratheon
votes: 3
Option 3: Renly Baratheon
votes: 4
Option 4: Robb Stark
votes: 7
Option 5: Balon Greyjoy
votes: 1
Option 6: Daenerys Targaryen
votes: 8
Option 7: Mance Rayder
votes: 3
Just curious :)
I'm torn between Stannis and Renly.
Clearly one must draw a blade for Stark & Secession.
Non of those, I'd side with the Martell and stay in Dorne getting a tan. :cool:
Quote from: The Larch on May 30, 2011, 05:24:00 PM
Non of those, I'd side with the Martell and stay in Dorne getting a tan. :cool:
Then vote Targaryen. :sleep:
Quote from: Lettow77 on May 30, 2011, 05:22:46 PM
Clearly one must draw a blade for Stark & Secession.
Great, Lettow just tainted the Starks. <_<
I must support Jon Snow and the Night Watch.
Mance Rayder.
Its not fair, we know how some of the Houses fail.
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 05:38:53 PM
Its not fair, we know how some of the Houses fail.
Do we? :ph34r:
Stannis is clearly the heir to Robert, if you care about those things.
If I had not known that Robb was going to fuck his people so badly, I would have flown the Direwolf banner on my humble keep.
The Lannisters. They pay their debt. All the others are way too fucking fickle.
Renly appears to have the best starting position. He's got the rich southwest behind him, while the Starks are mired in the Riverlands, Stannis has no army and the Lannisters' southern flank is extremely vulnerable.
e) Not be lost in a fantasy world
F) Marillion
Mance Rayder, I'm not much for bending any knee to any lordling, plus I suspect he might be Rhaegar in disguise.
Quote from: Viking on May 30, 2011, 06:44:53 PM
Mance Rayder, I'm not much for bending any knee to any lordling, plus I suspect he might be Rhaegar in disguise.
You're getting dangerously into increasingly bizarre theories, you know.
Quote from: The Larch on May 30, 2011, 06:54:50 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 30, 2011, 06:44:53 PM
Mance Rayder, I'm not much for bending any knee to any lordling, plus I suspect he might be Rhaegar in disguise.
You're getting dangerously into increasingly bizarre theories, you know.
I know, but it is just fun. I keep my conspiracy theories strictly to fiction, that is where they belong.
Joffrey and Stannis couldn't rule if their lives depended on it. Danaeris and Greyjoy are overseas, hard to ride to their service, you know. Mance Rayder is a joke.
That leaves Robb and Renly. It would come down to where I lived, probably.
Quote from: Barrister on May 30, 2011, 05:28:52 PM
I must support Jon Snow and the Night Watch.
So an abstention, then. :rolleyes:
Voted Stannis, as he is the rightful heir.
Actually, what are our motives, here? Are we only supposed to be worried about money or lands? Because if that's the case, obviously Joffrey or Renly are the best bet.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 30, 2011, 06:22:13 PM
e) Not be lost in a fantasy world
Vote e) as well.
Not sure I've seen Stannis. Is he the guy who protected the beautiful homoknight after the joust with the horse killer?
Quote from: Habbaku on May 30, 2011, 07:10:37 PM
Actually, what are our motives, here? Are we only supposed to be worried about money or lands? Because if that's the case, obviously Joffrey or Renly are the best bet.
Hmmm, I put freerider instead of sellsword, so let's say honour and glory and all that stuff.
I'm not sure why Stannis is considered a bad ruler, other than he doesn't throw parties.
Who does the watery tart with the scimitar support?
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2011, 05:13:59 PM
Just curious :)
I'm torn between Stannis and Renly.
Jofrrey is a Lannister and the Lannisters are plotting as if they were in Dallas.
Stannis his apparently a younger image of his late brother. Inept king.
The gay dude is, well, gay, so no chance of founding a dynasty here. Besides, he's power hungry.
Robb Stark would make a good ruler, but no one would respect him anymore than they did his father, and he's not as ruthless as the old Baratheon could have been. No.
Balon Greyjoy is the father of the other Greyjoy, the one whom people here said was a traitor. So, no. Unfit to rule.
Don't know the Rayder guy, so no.
Wich leaves us with Daenarys. She seems to be the only one sane enough to rule a country, so far. She will eventually command dragons, they told us so many times and the eggs glow near the candles. Besides, she's very pretty. A pretty non mad-plotting queen is what Westeros needs.
Also, being away from Westheros, I suspect she'll be one of the few left alive by the end of the series :P
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2011, 07:17:22 PM
Not sure I've seen Stannis. Is he the guy who protected the beautiful homoknight after the joust with the horse killer?
I don't think we have seen him yet. He is the late king younger brother (the eldest of his younger brothers). He is away from King's Landing since Stark sent him a message.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 30, 2011, 07:25:24 PM
I'm not sure why Stannis is considered a bad ruler, other than he doesn't throw parties.
Who does the watery tart with the scimitar support?
Wasn't the one lobbing the scimitar a moistened bint? :unsure:
The Martells. I still love Oberyn. :wub:
Winter is Coming.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 30, 2011, 07:17:22 PM
Not sure I've seen Stannis. Is he the guy who protected the beautiful homoknight after the joust with the horse killer?
No, he hasn't been introduced in the TV series aside from several comments made about him (and Ned's supporting him as the rightful king).
Stannis is very much a law and order type of guy and not what one would deem charismatic...
The Starks of those listed, though the Night Watch would probably be my top choice.
Quote from: viper37 on May 30, 2011, 07:30:01 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on May 30, 2011, 05:13:59 PM
Just curious :)
I'm torn between Stannis and Renly.
Jofrrey is a Lannister and the Lannisters are plotting as if they were in Dallas.
Stannis his apparently a younger image of his late brother. Inept king.
The gay dude is, well, gay, so no chance of founding a dynasty here. Besides, he's power hungry.
Robb Stark would make a good ruler, but no one would respect him anymore than they did his father, and he's not as ruthless as the old Baratheon could have been. No.
Balon Greyjoy is the father of the other Greyjoy, the one whom people here said was a traitor. So, no. Unfit to rule.
Don't know the Rayder guy, so no.
Wich leaves us with Daenarys. She seems to be the only one sane enough to rule a country, so far. She will eventually command dragons, they told us so many times and the eggs glow near the candles. Besides, she's very pretty. A pretty non mad-plotting queen is what Westeros needs.
Also, being away from Westheros, I suspect she'll be one of the few left alive by the end of the series :P
I suspect this list was compiled to justify a choice, not make one! :lol:
Stannis was considered a very competent and effective ruler. That is why he was in Dragonstone to begin with , as Dragonstone needed the best ruler available.
Daenarys is of tainted blood. Pretty much all of her adult kin went crazy in one fashion or another. She will turn out crazy as well.
She is, however, the rightful heir (Stannis is heir to a usurper). If one believes in rightful kings and queens and all that fairy-dust stuff, then one supports her simply because she is the rightful heir. Then one hopes her madness won't be as destructive as that of her father and grandfather.
Quote from: grumbler on May 30, 2011, 07:46:48 PM
I suspect this list was compiled to justify a choice, not make one! :lol:
you would be right :P
Quote
Stannis was considered a very competent and effective ruler. That is why he was in Dragonstone to begin with , as Dragonstone needed the best ruler available.
Haven't read the books, only what I've heard so far on tv. It's possible he'd be the best ruler.
Quote
Daenarys is of tainted blood. Pretty much all of her adult kin went crazy in one fashion or another. She will turn out crazy as well.
She is, however, the rightful heir (Stannis is heir to a usurper). If one believes in rightful kings and queens and all that fairy-dust stuff, then one supports her simply because she is the rightful heir. Then one hopes her madness won't be as destructive as that of her father and grandfather.
I liked the comment made by someone in the last episode, I believe it was Daenarys' knight/bodyguard, to the effect that the rightful king was the one to seize power at the opportune moment.
It doesn't look to me like the people of Westheros are that attached to "rigthful heir", but I might be wrong. With so many people declaring themselves king, and nothing to indicate a strong hierarchy of nobility à la France 1788, it would seem unimportant.
The beautiful wannabe queen turning crazy makes me sad though :( I don't think it's gonna happen tough. It seems limited to male heirs of the dynasty :P
Quote from: viper37 on May 30, 2011, 07:55:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 30, 2011, 07:46:48 PM
I suspect this list was compiled to justify a choice, not make one! :lol:
you would be right :P
Quote
Stannis was considered a very competent and effective ruler. That is why he was in Dragonstone to begin with , as Dragonstone needed the best ruler available.
Haven't read the books, only what I've heard so far on tv. It's possible he'd be the best ruler.
Quote
Daenarys is of tainted blood. Pretty much all of her adult kin went crazy in one fashion or another. She will turn out crazy as well.
She is, however, the rightful heir (Stannis is heir to a usurper). If one believes in rightful kings and queens and all that fairy-dust stuff, then one supports her simply because she is the rightful heir. Then one hopes her madness won't be as destructive as that of her father and grandfather.
I liked the comment made by someone in the last episode, I believe it was Daenarys' knight/bodyguard, to the effect that the rightful king was the one to seize power at the opportune moment.
It doesn't look to me like the people of Westheros are that attached to "rigthful heir", but I might be wrong. With so many people declaring themselves king, and nothing to indicate a strong hierarchy of nobility à la France 1788, it would seem unimportant.
The beautiful wannabe queen turning crazy makes me sad though :( I don't think it's gonna happen tough. It seems limited to male heirs of the dynasty :P
Most of the great houses were kings in their own right before the Targaryans came and as one would expect there's a lot intermarriage between the great houses. They all feel they have claim to power.
Quote from: viper37 on May 30, 2011, 07:55:05 PM
I liked the comment made by someone in the last episode, I believe it was Daenarys' knight/bodyguard, to the effect that the rightful king was the one to seize power at the opportune moment.
Well, that's certainly the effective outcome, but if one is young enough and stupid enough to believe in fairy tales like "rightful heir," then one dismisses such realism.
QuoteIt doesn't look to me like the people of Westheros are that attached to "rigthful heir", but I might be wrong. With so many people declaring themselves king, and nothing to indicate a strong hierarchy of nobility à la France 1788, it would seem unimportant.
There is a scene in the book, which may not have made it to the TV screen, in which Robert and Ned fight in the council over whether or not to assassinate Danaerys. It would indicate that enough people did, indeed, care that she was the actual rightful ruler so that her existence worried Robert.
QuoteThe beautiful wannabe queen turning crazy makes me sad though :( I don't think it's gonna happen tough. It seems limited to male heirs of the dynasty :P
If you are a young free rider, you have to choose based on the evidence available at the start of the war. You don't get to see the scripts in advance. :P
This is a really tough one. I'm going to be guided by two considerations - personal survival, and my desire to serve the rightful king.
Mance Rayder is out immediately. He is as far away from rightful king as one can be.
Balon Greyjoy is too pirate like. He aspires to be a regional power, not central authority.
Robb Stark is the same. Though he is probably a good boss.
Stannis can claim to be the rightful king. But his army is small. So probably no. I also hate to have my fingers chopped off.
Joffrey Baratheon is a lunatic and a bad boss. I won't survive working under him. He'll gladly send me on suicide missions.
Daenerys Targaryen can also claim to be the rightful ruler. Her "army" is almost non-existant. She has a huge advantage - she is on another continent. So if she is defeated, I stand a higher chance of escaping. Being weak, she will also welcome help.
Renly is probably the strongest at the start. There is no way he can claim to be the rightful ruler, though.
The real choice is between hiding and following someone. During the war, being a peasant is probably more dangerous. But Dorne seems to be quite safe. So I'll hide there.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2011, 09:41:19 PM
Stannis can claim to be the rightful king. But his army is small. So probably no. I also hate to have my fingers chopped off.
:rolleyes: Then don't smuggle. R'hllor, it's not that hard.
But then he has to pay customs fees.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2011, 09:41:19 PM
This is a really tough one. I'm going to be guided by two considerations - personal survival, and my desire to serve the rightful king.
Mance Rayder is out immediately. He is as far away from rightful king as one can be.
Balon Greyjoy is too pirate like. He aspires to be a regional power, not central authority.
Robb Stark is the same. Though he is probably a good boss.
Stannis can claim to be the rightful king. But his army is small. So probably no. I also hate to have my fingers chopped off.
Joffrey Baratheon is a lunatic and a bad boss. I won't survive working under him. He'll gladly send me on suicide missions.
Daenerys Targaryen can also claim to be the rightful ruler. Her "army" is almost non-existant. She has a huge advantage - she is on another continent. So if she is defeated, I stand a higher chance of escaping. Being weak, she will also welcome help.
Renly is probably the strongest at the start. There is no way he can claim to be the rightful ruler, though.
The real choice is between hiding and following someone. During the war, being a peasant is probably more dangerous. But Dorne seems to be quite safe. So I'll hide there.
Monoriu, a caricature.
Daenerys :wub:
Quote from: grumbler on May 30, 2011, 09:02:48 PM
There is a scene in the book, which may not have made it to the TV screen, in which Robert and Ned fight in the council over whether or not to assassinate Danaerys. It would indicate that enough people did, indeed, care that she was the actual rightful ruler so that her existence worried Robert.
yeah it was there. Robert was worried about a male heir coming from her, with the Dothraki army at his back. Not the rightful heir per see. Could be different in the books, hadn't started the reading yet.
The way I see it presented in the tv show, is that a lot of people feel they, or someone else, are legitimate heir to the throne, by one way or another. But most people around them don't really care about who's legitimate or not, they care about who stands the most chance of ruling and returning favours.
My boy Jorah said it best I believe, "The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are."
Renly of course. :cool:
Quote from: viper37 on May 30, 2011, 07:30:01 PM
The gay dude is, well, gay, so no chance of founding a dynasty here. Besides, he's power hungry.
QuoteWich leaves us with Daenarys.
A teenage girl is a perfect way to found a dynasty. :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 02:04:11 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 30, 2011, 07:30:01 PM
The gay dude is, well, gay, so no chance of founding a dynasty here. Besides, he's power hungry.
QuoteWich leaves us with Daenarys.
:hmm:
Don't spoil him, he hasn't read the books.
Edited.
I would join the Rainbow Guard. :homo:
I love how Robb has the majority, considering he is probably the most clueless of all the pretenders (technically, Joffrey is probably even more of a tard but he has his grandpa and uncle to scheme for him at least).
Oh? He at least had success on the battlefield. What did Renly do? Hold tournaments and build siege engines he never even used while inching his way toward King's Landing? Robb got screwed over on a couple occasions on a level not seen by the other parties, yet still manged to keep things going longer than most. Renly has what exactly? One of the weakest legitimacy claims, an older brother to divide loyalties amongst his family's supporters, an alliance due to his boyfriend, and grand thoughts of himself being a good ruler because people like him for his parties and flashiness? Feh.
Targaryen :)
Quote from: grumbler on May 30, 2011, 07:37:47 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 30, 2011, 07:25:24 PM
I'm not sure why Stannis is considered a bad ruler, other than he doesn't throw parties.
Who does the watery tart with the scimitar support?
Wasn't the one lobbing the scimitar a moistened bint? :unsure:
Technically, Stannis did have a sword distributed to him by a strange woman lighting fires.
Easy answer: Depends on where I was born.
How many free agents exist in this universe, and what manner of people are they? Opportunists, spies and criminals. Would likely work for Lannister or one of the even more dubious people in that case.
As portrayed, I think the Starks would naturally be the kind of people who would inspire loyalty which would be attractive. Who am I in this scenario? A sell-sword? A noble of a small house? A peasant? Can't really answer without knowing my motivations. :hmm:
Edit: Nevermind. My question is partly answered in the poll question. Lannister pays the best, and without knowing my motivations I'm going to assume they're financial.
How Jewish of you.
Voted Greyjoy in the end, because I like their style. :D
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 04:23:44 AM
Voted Greyjoy in the end, because I like their style. :D
a racist scandinavian going with the vikings? stop the presses!
Daenerys Targaryen.
On the grounds that, as I don't read the books, a reputedly pretty girl who just happens to be both the rightful heir and in need of support from within Westeros sounds like the most advantageous choice to me.
Are we supposing here that we are powerful enough Lords to get away with suggesting that oneself would be an appropriate candidate for "Prince Consort"?
Quote from: Agelastus on May 31, 2011, 05:24:08 AM
Daenerys Targaryen.
On the grounds that, as I don't read the books, a reputedly pretty girl who just happens to be both the rightful heir and in need of support from within Westeros sounds like the most advantageous choice to me.
Are we supposing here that we are powerful enough Lords to get away with suggesting that oneself would be an appropriate candidate for "Prince Consort"?
You are a "freerider", so no.
You know, despite Ned's purported honor, I thought Sunday's episode exposed that he's a tad hypocritical. He did help overthrow the mad king, despite his "blood." So obviously he will overthrow the monarchy when needed. But suddenly it matters whether it's Renly or Stannis?
Quote from: Faeelin on May 31, 2011, 06:23:06 AM
You know, despite Ned's purported honor, I thought Sunday's episode exposed that he's a tad hypocritical. He did help overthrow the mad king, despite his "blood." So obviously he will overthrow the monarchy when needed. But suddenly it matters whether it's Renly or Stannis?
There is a bit of inconsistency there, yes. Keep in mind though, that we don't really have a clear picture of the situation that led to the uprising. He's obviously not the kind of mindless drone who will "honourably" defend the proper chain of command regardless of the situation, but he clearly doesn't consider his personal safety in the decision making process.
I think once a king kills your father, brother, And sister the whole fealty thing goes out the window
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 06:35:17 AM
Keep in mind though, that we don't really have a clear picture of the situation that led to the uprising.
We do have the full picture. Aerys went bonkers and wanted Ned's and Robert's heads on a spike, after the complaints by Brandon and Rickard Stark after Lyanna's abduction by Rhaegar that got them both gruseomely executed. Fully justified rebellion.
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2011, 06:37:49 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 06:35:17 AM
Keep in mind though, that we don't really have a clear picture of the situation that led to the uprising.
We do have the full picture. Aerys went bonkers and wanted Ned's and Robert's heads on a spike, after the complaints by Brandon and Rickard Stark after Lyanna's abduction by Rhaegar that got them both gruseomely executed. Fully justified rebellion.
I guess when you put it that way, it's clear enough. :D
Regardless, it's not in Ned's nature to make a power play. He does what he does based on a code of conduct, bedamned the consequences. Note that the moment he hears about the capture of the midget, he doesn't blink but takes full responsibility for the abduction and even claiming it was on his orders.
I would say that Ned acts out of necessity, not out of convenience.
Ned = Balian.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 31, 2011, 06:23:06 AM
You know, despite Ned's purported honor, I thought Sunday's episode exposed that he's a tad hypocritical. He did help overthrow the mad king, despite his "blood." So obviously he will overthrow the monarchy when needed. But suddenly it matters whether it's Renly or Stannis?
He is also not above changing someone else's last will to further his ends.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:45:59 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 31, 2011, 06:23:06 AM
You know, despite Ned's purported honor, I thought Sunday's episode exposed that he's a tad hypocritical. He did help overthrow the mad king, despite his "blood." So obviously he will overthrow the monarchy when needed. But suddenly it matters whether it's Renly or Stannis?
He is also not above changing someone else's last will to further his ends.
When does he do that?
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 06:48:06 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:45:59 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 31, 2011, 06:23:06 AM
You know, despite Ned's purported honor, I thought Sunday's episode exposed that he's a tad hypocritical. He did help overthrow the mad king, despite his "blood." So obviously he will overthrow the monarchy when needed. But suddenly it matters whether it's Renly or Stannis?
He is also not above changing someone else's last will to further his ends.
When does he do that?
Robert dictates his last will to him, naming Joffrey as his heir. Ned does a "write in" trick, replacing "Joffrey" with "my true heir".
The only remotely smart and/or politicky thing he did while in King's Landing.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:49:30 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 06:48:06 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:45:59 AM
He is also not above changing someone else's last will to further his ends.
When does he do that?
Robert dictates his last will to him, naming Joffrey as his heir. Ned does a "write in" trick, replacing "Joffrey" with "my true heir".
When does he "[change] someone else's last will
to further his ends?" What you describe does not serve Ned's ends at all. His ends would have been better served by ignoring his suspicions and allowing Joffrey to marry his daughter and ascend the throne.
He perceives his ends as having the "rightful heir win". I am not saying that his ends are selfish, but that he does something that is, at its basic, dishonorable/unprincipled (altering someone else's last will) in order to further his own "honorable agenda".
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2011, 06:56:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:49:30 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 06:48:06 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:45:59 AM
He is also not above changing someone else's last will to further his ends.
When does he do that?
Robert dictates his last will to him, naming Joffrey as his heir. Ned does a "write in" trick, replacing "Joffrey" with "my true heir".
When does he "[change] someone else's last will to further his ends?" What you describe does not serve Ned's ends at all. His ends would have been better served by ignoring his suspicions and allowing Joffrey to marry his daughter and ascend the throne.
Well. If one is to get technical, that's not exactly true.
The moment he learns the circumstances surrounding Cersei and Jaime, his ends change. It might be true that he is better off just keeping quiet and seeing his daughter made Queen, but that is no longer his goal. Thus your argument, while fundamentally sound, still misses the mark.
Not to get into that discussion again, but it is also interesting how in Joffrey's case, the fact that he is not genetically Robert's son is perceived as a flaw/works against him in the mind of a modern reader, whereas for example Jon's bastardy (and Catelyn's animosity towards him) is viewed more in terms of Catelyn's flaw, not Jon's.
For all the little shit Joffrey is, he is pretty much a true son, psychologically, of an abusive, neglecting, shitty father that Robert was (coupled with an overprotective, over-ambitious mother), and his own bad character is probably much more an effect of this, than any "incestuous DNA".
He would be a shitty king, true (but the same does not need to be said about Tommen, for example) but his and his siblings' claim seem to be dismissed outright whereas that of Stannis isn't, even if he only gets to succeed by being a brother of an usurper (while at least the Baratheon-Lannister kids were groomed for royalty).
So in short, why should Joffrey be denied his birthright if he has lived all his life as a son of his father only because of a biological defect he had no influence on? Why would his case be worse than that of a Robert's bastard, as many seem to believe? I understand that "in character" for SOIAF characters this may matter (but, for all that, they are perfectly happy in deposing kings and advancing people with spurious claims) but why does it matter to a reader boggles my mind.
And Marty has illustrated why I support the workers and peasants of Westeros. I wonder how hard it would be to get some Soviet advisors over there...
So, Joffrey has a "birthright" due to a man who was not his actual father? :hmm:
As for the workers and peasants, I'm skeptical that a revolution is feasible without gunpowder. Or at least crossbow factories.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 31, 2011, 07:53:51 AM
So, Joffrey has a "birthright" due to a man who was not his actual father? :hmm:
As for the workers and peasants, I'm skeptical that a revolution is feasible without gunpowder. Or at least crossbow factories.
There will be one. With zombies.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 31, 2011, 07:53:51 AM
So, Joffrey has a "birthright" due to a man who was not his actual father? :hmm:
As for the workers and peasants, I'm skeptical that a revolution is feasible without gunpowder. Or at least crossbow factories.
Depends on what you mean by "actual father". I would argue that Robert, bad as he was, was more of a father to Joffrey than Jaime. Certainly Joffrey saw it as such.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 31, 2011, 07:53:51 AM
As for the workers and peasants, I'm skeptical that a revolution is feasible without gunpowder. Or at least crossbow factories.
One of the things that mildly annoys me about Westeros is that even though it's a pastiche of feudal Europe in size, the notion of free city, pikemen, etc. doesn't seem to show up.
It's not a big deal, but it'd be nice to see the smallfolk do something other than be gangraped.
Quote from: Maximus on May 31, 2011, 08:09:47 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 31, 2011, 07:53:51 AM
So, Joffrey has a "birthright" due to a man who was not his actual father? :hmm:
As for the workers and peasants, I'm skeptical that a revolution is feasible without gunpowder. Or at least crossbow factories.
Depends on what you mean by "actual father". I would argue that Robert, bad as he was, was more of a father to Joffrey than Jaime. Certainly Joffrey saw it as such.
Exactly my point. I'm a big proponent of the socio-emotional theory of fatherhood than a biological one. We have had this discussion here before. For all purposes, Robert was Joffrey's father, not Jaime. Negating this retroactively because of some action by a third party (Cersei) is not right.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 08:17:04 AM
Exactly my point. I'm a big proponent of the socio-emotional theory of fatherhood than a biological one. We have had this discussion here before. For all purposes, Robert was Joffrey's father, not Jaime. Negating this retroactively because of some action by a third party (Cersei) is not right.
I don't understand your point. You believe that the crown is something you can inherit, but we shouldn't recognize Westeros's definition of how the crown is inherited?
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 08:17:04 AM
Quote from: Maximus on May 31, 2011, 08:09:47 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 31, 2011, 07:53:51 AM
So, Joffrey has a "birthright" due to a man who was not his actual father? :hmm:
As for the workers and peasants, I'm skeptical that a revolution is feasible without gunpowder. Or at least crossbow factories.
Depends on what you mean by "actual father". I would argue that Robert, bad as he was, was more of a father to Joffrey than Jaime. Certainly Joffrey saw it as such.
Exactly my point. I'm a big proponent of the socio-emotional theory of fatherhood than a biological one. We have had this discussion here before. For all purposes, Robert was Joffrey's father, not Jaime. Negating this retroactively because of some action by a third party (Cersei) is not right.
sure. but the point was that you needed clear grounds for inheritance to minimize feuds. biological father was by far the clearest of the era.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 31, 2011, 07:47:11 AM
And Marty has illustrated why I support the workers and peasants of Westeros. I wonder how hard it would be to get some Soviet advisors over there...
The BWB are clearly the Red Menace.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 31, 2011, 08:22:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 08:17:04 AM
Exactly my point. I'm a big proponent of the socio-emotional theory of fatherhood than a biological one. We have had this discussion here before. For all purposes, Robert was Joffrey's father, not Jaime. Negating this retroactively because of some action by a third party (Cersei) is not right.
I don't understand your point. You believe that the crown is something you can inherit, but we shouldn't recognize Westeros's definition of how the crown is inherited?
My point is that readers seem to internalize these rules and consider them rational or fair, even though they aren't (otherwise, why is Ned Stark considered honorable and a "good guy"? If these rules are unfair and immoral, then someone who sticks to them should be seen at best as a amoral legalist, not a hero). Plus, these rules seem flexible and flouted often enough to make anyone who pretends to stick by them a hypocrite (see: Ned Stark).
Quote from: Faeelin on May 31, 2011, 08:13:12 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 31, 2011, 07:53:51 AM
As for the workers and peasants, I'm skeptical that a revolution is feasible without gunpowder. Or at least crossbow factories.
One of the things that mildly annoys me about Westeros is that even though it's a pastiche of feudal Europe in size, the notion of free city, pikemen, etc. doesn't seem to show up.
It's not a big deal, but it'd be nice to see the smallfolk do something other than be gangraped.
They have the Free Cities, just not in Westeros.
The word birthright kinda implies that it's something that's been there since birth... Robert may have been preteen little shit Joff's "actual father" due to having raised him, but he wasn't mewling babe Joff's father.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 08:26:03 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 31, 2011, 08:22:20 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 08:17:04 AM
Exactly my point. I'm a big proponent of the socio-emotional theory of fatherhood than a biological one. We have had this discussion here before. For all purposes, Robert was Joffrey's father, not Jaime. Negating this retroactively because of some action by a third party (Cersei) is not right.
I don't understand your point. You believe that the crown is something you can inherit, but we shouldn't recognize Westeros's definition of how the crown is inherited?
My point is that readers seem to internalize these rules and consider them rational or fair, even though they aren't (otherwise, why is Ned Stark considered honorable and a "good guy"? If these rules are unfair and immoral, then someone who sticks to them should be seen at best as a amoral legalist, not a hero). Plus, these rules seem flexible and flouted often enough to make anyone who pretends to stick by them a hypocrite (see: Ned Stark).
The importance of genetic relation is something that most everyone feels on an intuitive level. It's as close to "natural" law as you can get.
The notion that the social bond is more important than the blood is, I would suspect, a fairly recent invention.
Yes, I am sure you can find exceptions (especially the rometards) but it doesn't really change anything.
The only unnatural thing here is insisting that the concept of "birthright" is "unfair".
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:59:08 AM
He perceives his ends as having the "rightful heir win". I am not saying that his ends are selfish, but that he does something that is, at its basic, dishonorable/unprincipled (altering someone else's last will) in order to further his own "honorable agenda".
What he does is not at all unprincipled or dishonest. He does exactly what he knows Robert would want him to do, if Robert were in any position to comprehend the truth and state a position. He spares Robert the truth for what he sees as honorable and valid reasons (and ones a discerning reader can also perceive as such) but ensures that his concern for his friend does not harm the realm by making Robert's behest read as it would if Robert knew the truth.
Principles and honor come precisely from doing the "right thing," even if that does not serve one's own ends. Ned's actions are practically a poster-child example of such actions. Ned perceives his ends as serving his family and people. He could best serve those ends by having his daughter married to the king. he goes against his own ends first by accepting the job as the Hand, and then again by taking a stand against Cersei and the illegitimate kids. Ned is too honorable to be smart, alas - not the reverse, as it seems you would have it.
All things being equal I would go Targ.
Quote from: Valmy on May 31, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
All things being equal I would go Targ.
Madness and incest? Give back your Jacobin card.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 11:51:59 AM
Madness and incest? Give back your Jacobin card.
Dragons baby. If I am a Hedge Knight I play to win.
Besides a line of mad and incest ridden monarchs will bring about the Westeros Liberal Revolution faster.
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 06:59:54 AM
The moment he learns the circumstances surrounding Cersei and Jaime, his ends change. It might be true that he is better off just keeping quiet and seeing his daughter made Queen, but that is no longer his goal. Thus your argument, while fundamentally sound, still misses the mark.
I think you miss the point. Ned's ends didn't change. He never had as his end to see anyone specific on the throne, or even anyone specifically "legitimate" on the throne. Ned's ends were familial and personal; he wanted to serve his family and people, and he wanted to find out what happened to his mentor and friend. Everything he did came from serving those ends.
A few things that I feel should be thrown into the discussion that I've noticed while reading through the books (Almost done with A Clash of Kings):
Jaimie was there for Joffrey's conception, birth, and raising. Robert was not. Cersei explains how Robert needs to feel loved and feel that people like him, but Joffrey never did. He always cried when Robert tried to interact with him, whereas Robert's bastards loved him and his attention as babies/children. Joffrey did however enjoy Jaimie's presence. This led to even more resentment on Robert's part, and more pushing toward the Lannisters, his legitimate genetic parents.
With regard to legitimacy of claims, House Baratheon is related to House Targaryen, and as such has their claim to the throne via those blood ties. Add in the right of conquest for vanquishing the parent branch of the Targaryens, and you have them as the most legitimate house on two levels. House Lannister has 0 claim to the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, other than Cersei's marriage to Robert. Her bastards with Jaimie have no claim at all then.
In terms of the incest thing, which you've talked down in the past Marti, it is stated that it is considered a terrible crime and unnatural in Westeros. The only reason the Targaryens are excused is because they aren't of Westeros, but of Valereyan descent, and have different customs and ways of doing things that are alien.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 30, 2011, 07:25:24 PM
I'm not sure why Stannis is considered a bad ruler, other than he doesn't throw parties.
He wants to convert the country to a new foreign, extremely intolerant religion.
What could possibly go wrong? :hmm:
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2011, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 06:59:54 AM
The moment he learns the circumstances surrounding Cersei and Jaime, his ends change. It might be true that he is better off just keeping quiet and seeing his daughter made Queen, but that is no longer his goal. Thus your argument, while fundamentally sound, still misses the mark.
I think you miss the point. Ned's ends didn't change. He never had as his end to see anyone specific on the throne, or even anyone specifically "legitimate" on the throne. Ned's ends were familial and personal; he wanted to serve his family and people, and he wanted to find out what happened to his mentor and friend. Everything he did came from serving those ends.
Maybe you're right.
Quote from: Sahib on May 31, 2011, 03:28:00 PM
He wants to convert the country to a new foreign, extremely intolerant religion.
What could possibly go wrong? :hmm:
Stannis will move the capitol to a new city called 'New King's Landing' but everybody will call it 'Stannisville'.
Quote from: Sahib on May 31, 2011, 03:28:00 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 30, 2011, 07:25:24 PM
I'm not sure why Stannis is considered a bad ruler, other than he doesn't throw parties.
He wants to convert the country to a new foreign, extremely intolerant religion.
What could possibly go wrong? :hmm:
Did he ever say he would ban the old faiths?
Quote from: Faeelin on May 31, 2011, 04:02:49 PM
Quote from: Sahib on May 31, 2011, 03:28:00 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on May 30, 2011, 07:25:24 PM
I'm not sure why Stannis is considered a bad ruler, other than he doesn't throw parties.
He wants to convert the country to a new foreign, extremely intolerant religion.
What could possibly go wrong? :hmm:
Did he ever say he would ban the old faiths?
He burned the images of the Seven and their septons, which seems pretty much like banning.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 31, 2011, 02:57:30 PM
In terms of the incest thing, which you've talked down in the past Marti, it is stated that it is considered a terrible crime and unnatural in Westeros. The only reason the Targaryens are excused is because they aren't of Westeros, but of Valereyan descent, and have different customs and ways of doing things that are alien.
That, and it's good to be the King (tm).
Quote from: Habbaku on May 30, 2011, 07:09:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 30, 2011, 05:28:52 PM
I must support Jon Snow and the Night Watch.
So an abstention, then. :rolleyes:
Voted Stannis, as he is the rightful heir.
More than Daenarys?
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 03:35:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2011, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 06:59:54 AM
The moment he learns the circumstances surrounding Cersei and Jaime, his ends change. It might be true that he is better off just keeping quiet and seeing his daughter made Queen, but that is no longer his goal. Thus your argument, while fundamentally sound, still misses the mark.
I think you miss the point. Ned's ends didn't change. He never had as his end to see anyone specific on the throne, or even anyone specifically "legitimate" on the throne. Ned's ends were familial and personal; he wanted to serve his family and people, and he wanted to find out what happened to his mentor and friend. Everything he did came from serving those ends.
Maybe you're right.
:o Wow, I'm speechless.
Stannis.
Daenerys is a woman and cannot inherit.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on May 31, 2011, 02:57:30 PM
With regard to legitimacy of claims, House Baratheon is related to House Targaryen, and as such has their claim to the throne via those blood ties. Add in the right of conquest for vanquishing the parent branch of the Targaryens, and you have them as the most legitimate house on two levels. House Lannister has 0 claim to the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, other than Cersei's marriage to Robert. Her bastards with Jaimie have no claim at all then.
It is stated that the Baratheon-Targaryen connection is disputed and probably invented just to justify Robert's usurpation.
Quote from: Siege on May 31, 2011, 06:38:28 PM
Stannis.
Daenerys is a woman and cannot inherit.
You are a disgrace to Jews
Btw, someone said that Renly's decision to delay military confrontation showed him to be spineless/indecisive. But, wasn't that the best choice in his situation? Unlike the other pretenders, he was in a comfortable situation, without any direct military threat from the other pretenders, and with the best access to resources. He had a huge army and the whole Reach, the breadbasket of the Seven Kingdoms, at his command. Meanwhile, Lannisters' forces were split, having to deal with both the Stark-Tully alliance and Stannis; Stannis's hand was forced, as he could only hope to survive by winning a spectacular victory; and Starks were going for a direct confrontation with Lannisters (also, who is to tell that if Renly moved North with his army, the Greyjoys wouldn't strike at the South of the Reach, rather than Winterfell).
In purely military terms, time was on his side - so wasn't the decision to let others bleed each other out the best in these circumstances? If he wasn't assassinated, he could have probably first moved North to pick up whatever is left after Lannister-Stark confrontation, and then move on King's Landing, already weakened after Stannis's attack.
Btw, I love how a fratricide who uses assassins is considered a "honorable, righteous man" in all this. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:41:44 AM
It is stated that the Baratheon-Targaryen connection is disputed and probably invented just to justify Robert's usurpation.
Where is this stated?
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:51:29 AM
Btw, someone said that Renly's decision to delay military confrontation showed him to be spineless/indecisive. But, wasn't that the best choice in his situation? Unlike the other pretenders, he was in a comfortable situation, without any direct military threat from the other pretenders, and with best access to resources. In purely military terms, time was on his side - so wasn't the decision to let others bleed each other out the best in these circumstances?
No, I think it made absolutely perfect sense for Renly to have done what he did, albeit not in hindsight of course. I view Renly's march on K-L to be akin to an election campaign. He was steadily drawing in more people to his banner, collecting fame along the way, winning the support of the smallfolk, etc.. A quick rush to K-L would end with him as the king, surely, but with what sort of mandate and, as you say, what cost militarily?
Quote from: Siege on May 31, 2011, 06:38:28 PM
Stannis.
Daenerys is a woman and cannot inherit.
:contract:
Though, there seems to be some contention on that matter, as well, since the current Targaryen line descends from a usurped queen.
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2011, 01:53:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:41:44 AM
It is stated that the Baratheon-Targaryen connection is disputed and probably invented just to justify Robert's usurpation.
Where is this stated?
Well, ok, the founder of the house was "rumoured" to be a bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror. That's a pretty flimsy connection, even if it was true.
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2011, 01:56:10 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 31, 2011, 06:38:28 PM
Stannis.
Daenerys is a woman and cannot inherit.
:contract:
Though, there seems to be some contention on that matter, as well, since the current Targaryen line descends from a usurped queen.
Well, if you want to be nitpicky, she was never an uncontested queen. Aegon II ascended to the throne after Viserys I and Rhaenyra was the challenger to the throne. She lost and was eaten by the dragon, and only her male descendants succeeded the childless Aegon II. So it's consistent with what he said (women cannot inherit but male descendants can inherit through females).
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 02:06:21 AM
Well, if you want to be nitpicky, she was never an uncontested queen. Aegon II ascended to the throne after Viserys I and Rhaenyra was the challenger to the throne.
As far as I remember, it was the other way around. Aegon II wanted her to rule after him and put as much in his will, only for others not to accept such a matter which lead to the first Dance of Dragons.
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2011, 01:56:10 AM
Quote from: Siege on May 31, 2011, 06:38:28 PM
Stannis.
Daenerys is a woman and cannot inherit.
:contract:
Though, there seems to be some contention on that matter, as well, since the current Targaryen line descends from a usurped queen.
The mistake you make is treating this like Natural law.
Certainly, to rule without the implied consent of tradition is going to be harder than with it, but it just requires more swords.
That new dynasty has to start somewhere.
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 02:02:24 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2011, 01:53:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:41:44 AM
It is stated that the Baratheon-Targaryen connection is disputed and probably invented just to justify Robert's usurpation.
Where is this stated?
Well, ok, the founder of the house was "rumoured" to be a bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror. That's a pretty flimsy connection, even if it was true.
That relates to the founding of House Baratheon, which is semi-mythical, but Robert's (and Stannis' and Renly's for that matter) paternal grandmother was a Targaryen, which is from whom they drew their claim to the throne.
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2011, 02:09:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 02:06:21 AM
Well, if you want to be nitpicky, she was never an uncontested queen. Aegon II ascended to the throne after Viserys I and Rhaenyra was the challenger to the throne.
As far as I remember, it was the other way around. Aegon II wanted her to rule after him and put as much in his will, only for others not to accept such a matter which lead to the first Dance of Dragons.
Nope, it was Viserys I who put her in his will, but Aegon II (her brother) managed to succeed him nonetheless. He then prompted to kill her during the Dance of Dragons, but was succeeded by Aegon III, her son.
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 02:02:24 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on June 01, 2011, 01:53:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:41:44 AM
It is stated that the Baratheon-Targaryen connection is disputed and probably invented just to justify Robert's usurpation.
Where is this stated?
Well, ok, the founder of the house was "rumoured" to be a bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror. That's a pretty flimsy connection, even if it was true.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaelle_Targaryen
Quote from: Solmyr on June 01, 2011, 03:41:34 AM
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaelle_Targaryen
Yep Robert's grandfather was a Targ and his great-grandfather was Aegon V.
I would pledge my sword to the Return of the Queen.
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2011, 09:12:47 AM
Yep Robert's grandfathermother was a Targ and his great-grandfather was Aegon V.
Fixed, as I understand it.