Something's not quite right here. :hmm:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42649318/ns/local_news-new_york_ny/
QuoteIn NY, many school janitors paid more than teachers
Base pay for union custodians more than highest paid teachers, NBC analysis finds
By Chris Glorioso
NBCNewYork.com
updated 4/18/2011 2:51:18 PM ET
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Teachers in at least one Bronx school earn less money than the building custodian, a stat that has surprised students and parents.
Although it is commonly assumed teachers' wages top the salaries of custodians, an NBC New York analysis of public payrolls shows many custodians make more money than even the highest paid city teachers.
According to the union contract governing New York City Custodian Engineers, the men and women responsible for keeping school buildings clean and operating can make up to $114,000 a year in base pay. The highest paid teacher, with a masters degree and decades of tenure, can hope to make just over $100,000 in base pay.
Courtney Davis, a 10th-grader at the Roosevelt Education Campus in the Bronx, believes it should be the other way around.
"I think that the teachers should be making more money because we depend on them more than we depend on the custodians," she said.
The pay-scale differences are even more pronounced for rookie teachers and custodians.
First-year New York City school teachers without graduate degrees,make about $45,000 a year. The minimum pay for a first-year custodial engineer is almost $80,000 a year.
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"On what theory do custodians get paid more than senior teachers? It's outrageous," said former New York City Schools Chancellor Harold Levy.
The relatively generous pay packages for custodians represent squandered resources, says Levy. He argues it's money that would be better spent on recruiting talented teachers.
Local 891, the union that represents custodians, defends the salaries its members collect.
"The salaries earned by our members are based on their responsibilities ... they are by no means excessive. There is nothing to be gained by pitting one segment of the work force against another," said Robert Troeller, Local 891 president.
Unionized custodian engineers are paid based upon the square footage of the school facilities they are responsible for keeping clean and operating. They work 12 months a year, unlike teachers who may take summers off.
Despite the longer work year, some parents are convinced custodians are over-compensated.
"I think they're making too much money because teachers put in more work," said Naomi Rodriguez, as she walked her preschooler past Roosevelt Educational Campus.
Teachers, themselves, aren't so quick to judge the salaries of fellow public servants.
Evan Stone, a Bronx middle school teacher who co-founded the non-profit advocacy group Educators 4 Excellence, has long pushed for higher teacher salaries.
However, he is unwilling to say increased teacher pay should come at the cost of reducing custodian wages.
"I think the fact that custodial engineers make more than teachers demonstrates the fact that teachers aren't paid enough," Stone said.
I think it is clear that everyone is not paid enough, and if only the rich would do their part, they could all get paid what they are clearly worth.
Said amount to be determined by asking them nicely.
You should turn down your next pay raise, Berkut. So that your rich employers aren't unduly bothered.
QuoteThe minimum pay for a first-year custodial engineer is almost $80,000 a year.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Caliga on April 19, 2011, 09:46:14 AM
QuoteThe minimum pay for a first-year custodial engineer is almost $80,000 a year.
:lmfao:
Well, to be fair this is in NYC.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 19, 2011, 09:37:13 AM
You should turn down your next pay raise, Berkut. So that your rich employers aren't unduly bothered.
I am sure taking advice from you on work is the way to go.
The only fair solution is to raise the pay of teachers to 80,000 a year to start.
Quote from: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 09:48:05 AM
I am sure taking advice from you on work is the way to go.
*shrug* Why not? After all, you
did vote for Obama. :)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2011, 09:25:18 AM
Something's not quite right here. :hmm:
Indeed, I think they prefer being called "custodians".
Ok, one question I have is if the higher salaries are for maintenance custodians who may be required to have higher level skills to maintain heating systems, plumbing, electrical items, etc? Or for the janitors, those who clean, wash floors, empty trash, etc?
Quote from: Caliga on April 19, 2011, 10:10:53 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 19, 2011, 09:48:05 AM
I am sure taking advice from you on work is the way to go.
*shrug* Why not? After all, you did vote for Obama. :)
Actually, my vote for Obama was for McCain, it was merely altered by ACORN-George Soros-Nation of Islam-Rotary Club.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 19, 2011, 10:19:23 AM
Actually, my vote for Obama was for McCain, it was merely altered by ACORN-George Soros-Nation of Islam-Rotary Club.
I was talking to Berkut. :sleep:
Quote from: KRonn on April 19, 2011, 10:18:30 AM
Ok, one question I have is if the higher salaries are for maintenance custodians who may be required to have higher level skills to maintain heating systems, plumbing, electrical items, etc? Or for the janitors, those who clean, wash floors, empty trash, etc?
That's a good question. What I'm wondering is if they're requiring HVAC/plumbing/whatever certs, and it's really the school having unrealistic minimum qualifications affecting the bottom line.
QuoteCourtney Davis, a 10th-grader at the Roosevelt Education Campus in the Bronx, believes it should be the other way around.
"I think that the teachers should be making more money because we depend on them more than we depend on the custodians," she said.
Not really. I think at Marlborough High, I depended more on the janitors than my teachers.
Quote from: Caliga on April 19, 2011, 10:23:32 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 19, 2011, 10:19:23 AM
Actually, my vote for Obama was for McCain, it was merely altered by ACORN-George Soros-Nation of Islam-Rotary Club.
I was talking to Berkut. :sleep:
I imagine his was the same. In fact, nobody actually voted for Obama. It was merely a massive conspiracy.
@garbon
I think that's true in my case as well. :hmm:
I was pretty much self-taught, as were most of my peers. Teachers were just there to keep the place orderly and the bad kids under control. :)
Quote from: Razgovory on April 19, 2011, 10:27:01 AM
I imagine his was the same. In fact, nobody actually voted for Obama. It was merely a massive conspiracy.
:huh: Even Hans has never thrown anything like that out there.
Probably another BS article comparing teaching assistants to the head janitor.
I bet it takes more years to get certified as head custodian than head of the math department.
Quote from: starbright on April 19, 2011, 01:12:20 PM
Probably another BS article comparing teaching assistants to the head janitor.
I bet it takes more years to get certified as head custodian than head of the math department.
Can't speak for New York, but in my province, to be the head of the math department these days, you would generally need about 6 years of university education. (4 for bachelor degree + 1 for education degree + 1 for masters degree).
Anyway, it seems US teachers have a serious image problem in the US. Comparatively low pay, and pretty much everyone has only negative things to say about them. :hmm:
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 19, 2011, 01:33:20 PM
Quote from: starbright on April 19, 2011, 01:12:20 PM
Probably another BS article comparing teaching assistants to the head janitor.
I bet it takes more years to get certified as head custodian than head of the math department.
Can't speak for New York, but in my province, to be the head of the math department these days, you would generally need about 6 years of university education. (4 for bachelor degree + 1 for education degree + 1 for masters degree).
Anyway, it seems US teachers have a serious image problem in the US. Comparatively low pay, and pretty much everyone has only negative things to say about them. :hmm:
It's because the sucky ones never get fired.
Quote from: Caliga on April 19, 2011, 10:29:13 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 19, 2011, 10:27:01 AM
I imagine his was the same. In fact, nobody actually voted for Obama. It was merely a massive conspiracy.
:huh: Even Hans has never thrown anything like that out there.
More of a Glenn Beck thing.
Quote from: Caliga on April 19, 2011, 10:28:11 AM
@garbon
I think that's true in my case as well. :hmm:
I was pretty much self-taught, as were most of my peers. Teachers were just there to keep the place orderly and the bad kids under control. :)
In M'boro the teachers barely managed that. :(
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 19, 2011, 01:33:20 PM
Quote from: starbright on April 19, 2011, 01:12:20 PM
Probably another BS article comparing teaching assistants to the head janitor.
I bet it takes more years to get certified as head custodian than head of the math department.
Can't speak for New York, but in my province, to be the head of the math department these days, you would generally need about 6 years of university education. (4 for bachelor degree + 1 for education degree + 1 for masters degree).
Anyway, it seems US teachers have a serious image problem in the US. Comparatively low pay, and pretty much everyone has only negative things to say about them. :hmm:
Well, I think you see a slanted view, since your only exposure to the US image is via the media, and hence only when there is something to fight about. I think most people actually have a pretty positive view towards teaching and teachers.
To the extent that it is negative, it is largely driven by the perception, right or wrong, that teachers have a cushy job where plenty who aren't very good at what they do are protected from being canned.
I remember in Highschool many of the teachers had to take second jobs on account of how cushy their jobs were.
This makes sense because people will want to work as teachers because they enjoy teaching, and this should be exploited.
I have a positive perception of teachers. I dislike the demonizing that goes on when divisive or political issues come up, like Union contracts, paying for benefits, pensions, etc. To be expected though I guess, if teachers are seen as not contributing to their benefits as most other workers do; that kind of thing. But still, I respect the job teachers do; and try to separate them from the politics.
I really dislike the unpleasant, classist tone of the detractors in the article. "Of course a white collar worker should make more than a lowly janitor!" But as mentioned upthread, the lowly janitor is required to do more work, and very likely, more varied work, without which the entire building would become uninhabitable, a claim that no single teacher can make. Shockingly, they are paid slightly more.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 02:49:50 PM
I really dislike the unpleasant, classist tone of the detractors in the article. "Of course a white collar worker should make more than a lowly janitor!" But as mentioned upthread, the lowly janitor is required to do more work, and very likely, more varied work, without which the entire building would become uninhabitable, a claim that no single teacher can make. Shockingly, they are paid slightly more.
I'm not sure I like what you are saying. In that direction, the janitor in my building should make more than I or any of the bankers that populate the building. <_<
It's also a bit misleading, as myself, the bankers or teachers could clean the building (we have the ability) but choose to pursue other professions. I'm not sure if that would work from the janitor's position.
Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2011, 02:55:49 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 02:49:50 PM
I really dislike the unpleasant, classist tone of the detractors in the article. "Of course a white collar worker should make more than a lowly janitor!" But as mentioned upthread, the lowly janitor is required to do more work, and very likely, more varied work, without which the entire building would become uninhabitable, a claim that no single teacher can make. Shockingly, they are paid slightly more.
I'm not sure I like what you are saying. In that direction, the janitor in my building should make more than I or any of the bankers that populate the building. <_<
It's also a bit misleading, as myself, the bankers or teachers could clean the building (we have the ability) but choose to pursue other professions. I'm not sure if that would work from the janitor's position.
I'm just saying it seems like they've gotten a better deal, probably because they have more bargaining power than the teachers.
I'm also echoing the notion that "cleaning" is probably not the most challenging responsibility of custodians. Yeah, you can hire anyone to do that; you cannot hire just anyone to fix all the routine problems a large building is likely to have. If really all they're doing is taking out trash, then NYC (or the specific authorities here) could probably cut some expenses, but I don't think that's all there is to it.
The tone, of course, merely annoys me because of the borderline-Victorian umbrage taken at the temerity of the school districts to pay a dirty manual laborer more than a clean knowledge worker.
Quote from: KRonn on April 19, 2011, 02:17:06 PM
I have a positive perception of teachers. I dislike the demonizing that goes on when divisive or political issues come up, like Union contracts, paying for benefits, pensions, etc. To be expected though I guess, if teachers are seen as not contributing to their benefits as most other workers do; that kind of thing. But still, I respect the job teachers do; and try to separate them from the politics.
This bit about "contributing to one's benefits" is a red herring. Who nominally pays for the benefits is irrelevant, the incidence is unchanged. The whole salary and benefits is the compensation package. The only exception is where you have a choice over your benefits, and having to pay some percentage of it might make the employee make a more efficient choice.
Increasing the "contribution" to the benefits is just a stealthy pay cut, just like increasing the work week. That's most likely how employees in the private had their "contributions" increased over the years. Rarely is the increase in the "contributions" accompanied by a larger than normal salary raise. It's just a lot easier to require someone to contribute an extra 1% of their salary to their benefits, rather than cut everyone's salary directly by 1%.
Immigrants like Dr. Ján Itor are often honest hard-working people.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 03:02:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2011, 02:55:49 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 02:49:50 PM
I really dislike the unpleasant, classist tone of the detractors in the article. "Of course a white collar worker should make more than a lowly janitor!" But as mentioned upthread, the lowly janitor is required to do more work, and very likely, more varied work, without which the entire building would become uninhabitable, a claim that no single teacher can make. Shockingly, they are paid slightly more.
I'm not sure I like what you are saying. In that direction, the janitor in my building should make more than I or any of the bankers that populate the building. <_<
It's also a bit misleading, as myself, the bankers or teachers could clean the building (we have the ability) but choose to pursue other professions. I'm not sure if that would work from the janitor's position.
I'm just saying it seems like they've gotten a better deal, probably because they have more bargaining power than the teachers.
I'm also echoing the notion that "cleaning" is probably not the most challenging responsibility of custodians. Yeah, you can hire anyone to do that; you cannot hire just anyone to fix all the routine problems a large building is likely to have. If really all they're doing is taking out trash, then NYC (or the specific authorities here) could probably cut some expenses, but I don't think that's all there is to it.
The tone, of course, merely annoys me because of the borderline-Victorian umbrage taken at the temerity of the school districts to pay a dirty manual laborer more than a clean knowledge worker.
I am in 100% agreement.
It's filthy, is what it is.
Thinking they are somehow "deserving" of more pay? Bull shit.
Yeah. Supply, meet demand. END OF FUCKING STORY
Deserve? I don't understand what that means.
Quote from: The Brain on April 19, 2011, 03:20:36 PM
Yeah. Supply, meet demand. END OF FUCKING STORY
Apparently there is a lot of scribbling going on in the margins.
Quote from: The Brain on April 19, 2011, 03:20:36 PM
Yeah. Supply, meet demand. END OF FUCKING STORY
Deserve? I don't understand what that means.
It's going to be hilarious to watch all the graduates from the various journalism and sociology programmes scramble for jobs.
I can laugh because it's not going to be my tax money that will fund their "job" hunting. :D
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/janitors_clean_up_zEecMaKxzR8m202QAPiVZP
Here's a bit of an article from the NY Post last year:
QuoteHead custodians can earn extra income in one of two ways, including through "temporary care" assignments at schools that don't have a permanent custodial engineer. That work typically lasts less than two months but doesn't require that janitors clock in beyond normal work hours.
Head janitors also can pad their pay by helping out at other schools on nights or weekends -- which in Fitzgerald's case nearly doubled his $92,100 base salary.
Radef, a 36-year veteran assigned to Roosevelt HS in The Bronx, earned an extra $53,000 last year by helping out evenings at Truman HS.
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 03:25:35 PM
It's going to be hilarious to watch all the graduates from the various journalism and sociology programmes scramble for jobs.
Going to be? When have they been in demand? Most soc majors I knew at Stanford went into public school teaching or social work.
Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2011, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 03:25:35 PM
It's going to be hilarious to watch all the graduates from the various journalism and sociology programmes scramble for jobs.
Going to be? When have they been in demand? Most soc majors I knew at Stanford went into public school teaching or social work.
Or? :yeahright:
Quote from: The Brain on April 19, 2011, 03:20:36 PM
Yeah. Supply, meet demand. END OF FUCKING STORY
Deserve? I don't understand what that means.
Yeah, pilots should need to sell plasma and work second and third jobs to get by (nevermind they crash a plane once in a while). Source: Michael Moore, great American. :)
Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2011, 03:38:59 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 19, 2011, 03:20:36 PM
Yeah. Supply, meet demand. END OF FUCKING STORY
Deserve? I don't understand what that means.
Yeah, pilots should need to sell plasma and work second and third jobs to get by (nevermind they crash a plane once in a while). Source: Michael Moore, great American. :)
:hmm:
Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2011, 02:14:21 PM
This makes sense because people will want to work as teachers because they enjoy teaching, and this should be exploited.
I've only ever met 3 teachers wo actually enjoyed teaching :lol:
Quote from: The Brain on April 19, 2011, 03:39:40 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2011, 03:38:59 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 19, 2011, 03:20:36 PM
Yeah. Supply, meet demand. END OF FUCKING STORY
Deserve? I don't understand what that means.
Yeah, pilots should need to sell plasma and work second and third jobs to get by (nevermind they crash a plane once in a while). Source: Michael Moore, great American. :)
:hmm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ
Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2011, 03:55:10 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 19, 2011, 03:39:40 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2011, 03:38:59 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 19, 2011, 03:20:36 PM
Yeah. Supply, meet demand. END OF FUCKING STORY
Deserve? I don't understand what that means.
Yeah, pilots should need to sell plasma and work second and third jobs to get by (nevermind they crash a plane once in a while). Source: Michael Moore, great American. :)
:hmm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ)
:lol:
You have to be a real idiot to actually buy Moore's narrative.
"I want the pilot to be paid really well".
Well, gee, ever considered not shopping around for the cheapest air fare with the carrier who flies 40 year old planes duct taped together from scrapped parts.
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 03:59:37 PM
:lol:
You have to be a real idiot to actually buy Moore's narrative.
"I want the pilot to be paid really well".
Well, gee, ever considered not shopping around for the cheapest air fare with the carrier who flies 40 year old planes duct taped together from scrapped parts.
The evil state should stay out of stuff like regulating air plane travel :angry: Free market principles always lead to best outcome in matters of safety. :yes:
Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2011, 04:08:50 PM
Quote from: Slargos on April 19, 2011, 03:59:37 PM
:lol:
You have to be a real idiot to actually buy Moore's narrative.
"I want the pilot to be paid really well".
Well, gee, ever considered not shopping around for the cheapest air fare with the carrier who flies 40 year old planes duct taped together from scrapped parts.
The evil state should stay out of stuff like regulating air plane travel :angry: Free market principles always lead to best outcome in matters of safety. :yes:
Nanny state FTW. :lol:
You know what makes me really furious? All the children in day care who are left to play without proper safety equipment. They should all be wearing helmets when they're in the play ground.
Yes, clearly that's the same thing as having safety standards in the airline industry.
Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2011, 04:16:07 PM
Yes, clearly that's the same thing as having safety standards in the airline industry.
What makes you think there are no safety standards?
That's not what I said.
That's what he said.
Oooh! A "Strawman versus Red Herring" contest! This thread delivers!
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 03:02:35 PM
I'm also echoing the notion that "cleaning" is probably not the most challenging responsibility of custodians. Yeah, you can hire anyone to do that; you cannot hire just anyone to fix all the routine problems a large building is likely to have. If really all they're doing is taking out trash, then NYC (or the specific authorities here) could probably cut some expenses, but I don't think that's all there is to it.
I still don't buy it. Are you suggesting that the "clean knowledge workers" couldn't have learned maintenance duties quicker (and more cheaply) than the time/resources they spent on their educations?
Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2011, 04:52:29 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 03:02:35 PM
I'm also echoing the notion that "cleaning" is probably not the most challenging responsibility of custodians. Yeah, you can hire anyone to do that; you cannot hire just anyone to fix all the routine problems a large building is likely to have. If really all they're doing is taking out trash, then NYC (or the specific authorities here) could probably cut some expenses, but I don't think that's all there is to it.
I still don't buy it. Are you suggesting that the "clean knowledge workers" couldn't have learned maintenance duties quicker (and more cheaply) than the time/resources they spent on their educations?
He's suggesting exactly what he's saying, that it's not as simple as comparing a university educated educator, and a guy with a mop.
If we were paying the guy with the mop 50% more, it would certainly seem weird. It would still be perfectly reasonable given the very simple laws of supply and demand, but it would be intuitively harder to grasp.
Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2011, 04:52:29 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 03:02:35 PM
I'm also echoing the notion that "cleaning" is probably not the most challenging responsibility of custodians. Yeah, you can hire anyone to do that; you cannot hire just anyone to fix all the routine problems a large building is likely to have. If really all they're doing is taking out trash, then NYC (or the specific authorities here) could probably cut some expenses, but I don't think that's all there is to it.
I still don't buy it. Are you suggesting that the "clean knowledge workers" couldn't have learned maintenance duties quicker (and more cheaply) than the time/resources they spent on their educations?
I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.
I'm suggesting that:
1)the "outrage" in these NYC school districts has a snobbish--and irrational--bent to it;
2)either individuals, or their unions, have managed to negotiate a favorable deal with their employer, and it's of little consequence what other types of employees are paid; and
3)even if it were, it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as "I have a degree, hence I should be paid more," given the overlooked technical aspects of the custodian's duties.
I suppose that my point is that "Should teachers be paid more?" and "Should teachers be paid more than custodial engineers?" are completely separate questions, whose answers have very little to do with one another.
I am not sure all of those numbers are accurate (this http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/downloads/pdf/noes/custodianeng_boe.pdf 2004 job advertising sets the starting salary of custodians at $41,500 per year, and I doubt it has almost doubled since then), but I also don't think that one can argue, as Ide does, that we should ignore comparisons of two people working for the same employer in the same building because of some weird assumption that "it's of little consequence what other types of employees are paid" given the fixed budget of the employer.
Drawing conclusions from a story that uses unstated number from "at least one Bronx school" as "stat"s is probably foolish, though. The story is for shit, since it doesn't mention hours worked, or responsibilities, for any of its numbers. The fact that it includes "expert testimony" from a 10th-grader doesn't make it more credible.
Conclusion: bad writing on a slow news day. Add the Languish Usual Suspects and we have a storm in a tea cup.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 02:49:50 PM
I really dislike the unpleasant, classist tone of the detractors in the article. "Of course a white collar worker should make more than a lowly janitor!" But as mentioned upthread, the lowly janitor is required to do more work, and very likely, more varied work, without which the entire building would become uninhabitable, a claim that no single teacher can make. Shockingly, they are paid slightly more.
My school has a couple of mechanics/gophers, but they don't clean. The students clean the classrooms and cleaning lady is hired to clean the bathrooms.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 05:25:25 PM
1)the "outrage" in these NYC school districts has a snobbish--and irrational--bent to it;
Yeah I think you are just perceiving that bent. I perceive that people were upset that the focus of the schools - the educators - weren't paid as much a supporting staff - the janitors.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 05:25:25 PM2)either individuals, or their unions, have managed to negotiate a favorable deal with their employer, and it's of little consequence what other types of employees are paid;
:huh: People shouldn't be upset that politics makes it so that the key staff members get paid less that the support staff? Seems like a legitimate reason to me.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 05:25:25 PM3)even if it were, it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as "I have a degree, hence I should be paid more," given the overlooked technical aspects of the custodian's duties.
Except that's what my post was addressing...I think you are overstating and over-lauding(?) the technical aspects of the custodian's duties. I think many of those teachers could have been adequate custodians had they directed their efforts in that direction, but I'm not entirely sure it flows in the opposite direction (custodians=>teachers).
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 05:25:25 PMI suppose that my point is that "Should teachers be paid more?" and "Should teachers be paid more than custodial engineers?" are completely separate questions, whose answers have very little to do with one another.
Of course, but that doesn't make the comparison less frightful. Besides as grumbler did point out, the employers do have fixed budget. More to the custodians does mean less available funds for teaching staff. ;)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2011, 06:32:10 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 19, 2011, 02:49:50 PM
I really dislike the unpleasant, classist tone of the detractors in the article. "Of course a white collar worker should make more than a lowly janitor!" But as mentioned upthread, the lowly janitor is required to do more work, and very likely, more varied work, without which the entire building would become uninhabitable, a claim that no single teacher can make. Shockingly, they are paid slightly more.
My school has a couple of mechanics/gophers, but they don't clean. The students clean the classrooms and cleaning lady is hired to clean the bathrooms.
I'm not sure the Korean context can spread much light on the situation in New York.
Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2011, 06:34:37 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 19, 2011, 06:32:10 PM
My school has a couple of mechanics/gophers, but they don't clean. The students clean the classrooms and cleaning lady is hired to clean the bathrooms.
I'm not sure the Korean context can spread much light on the situation in New York.
Tim Ortiz for Chancellor! "He knows Korean gophers!"
Has anyone made a lame "they should be paid equally for having to deal with trash" wisecrack in this thread yet?
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 29, 2011, 11:58:31 PM
Has anyone made a lame "they should be paid equally for having to deal with trash" wisecrack in this thread yet?
No, but I'll toss in a "My high school teachers didn't do jack for me, but at least the janitor kept the fucking paper towels in the bathroom filled".
I had two good teachers. Ever. Out of, what 50? That means that there's 96% bad teachers? For every one of grumbler or my mom, there are 24 pieces of shit. Fuck them. Give the janitors a raise.
Quote from: Pat on April 19, 2011, 02:14:21 PM
This makes sense because people will want to work as teachers because they enjoy teaching, and this should be exploited.
Actually, that's quite true, even though most people do not see job market that way.
I could have easily gone into academia instead of becoming a transaction lawyer. It would be a great, rewarding job, with great working hours, interesting topics, associated respect and three months of paid holidays a year. Only that it would pay diddly squat. As a transaction lawyer I earn about 5-10 times as much as I would if I was a college professor - it does not mean my job needs 5 times more qualifications than that of a college professor - only that I have to put up with much more shit (unpredictable working hours/days, being available pretty much 24 hours a day, often boring/repetitive work, having to put up with asshole "clients", and whatnot).
The bottom line is - a janitor probably has to put up with much more shit than a teacher, so he gets paid more. It's about supply and demand, not who is more educated.
Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2011, 06:33:13 PM
Yeah I think you are just perceiving that bent. I perceive that people were upset that the focus of the schools - the educators - weren't paid as much a supporting staff - the janitors.
I thought you were a free market supporter, not a socialist. A plumber in Poland earn more than a first year college professor. Why? Because noone wants to be a plumber and everybody wants to be a college professor.
QuoteI could have easily gone into academia instead of becoming a transaction lawyer. It would be a great, rewarding job, with great working hours, interesting topics, associated respect and three months of paid holidays a year.
Academia isn't really like this any more.
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2011, 03:44:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2011, 06:33:13 PM
Yeah I think you are just perceiving that bent. I perceive that people were upset that the focus of the schools - the educators - weren't paid as much a supporting staff - the janitors.
I thought you were a free market supporter, not a socialist. A plumber in Poland earn more than a first year college professor. Why? Because noone wants to be a plumber and everybody wants to be a college professor.
An admin shouldn't be paid more than his boss. I'm going to pointedly ignore your irrelevant comparison.
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2011, 10:18:06 AM
An admin shouldn't be paid more than his boss. I'm going to pointedly ignore your irrelevant comparison.
Talk about irrelevant. A teacher is not a janitor's boss. :huh:
That's so surprising. But then I also posted an article in this thread where some janitors were raking in more than the principals.
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2011, 03:37:50 AM
The bottom line is - a janitor probably has to put up with much more shit than a teacher, so he gets paid more. It's about supply and demand, not who is more educated.
Given that a million people just applied for 38,000 slots at McDonalds in America, I suspect there are plenty of people who'd be happy to become janitors.
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2011, 03:44:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2011, 06:33:13 PM
Yeah I think you are just perceiving that bent. I perceive that people were upset that the focus of the schools - the educators - weren't paid as much a supporting staff - the janitors.
I thought you were a free market supporter, not a socialist. A plumber in Poland earn more than a first year college professor. Why? Because noone wants to be a plumber and everybody wants to be a college professor.
:hmm:
Quote from: Faeelin on April 30, 2011, 09:41:54 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2011, 03:37:50 AM
The bottom line is - a janitor probably has to put up with much more shit than a teacher, so he gets paid more. It's about supply and demand, not who is more educated.
Given that a million people just applied for 38,000 slots at McDonalds in America, I suspect there are plenty of people who'd be happy to become janitors.
I suspect you have no idea what you are talking about. If there were plenty of people who'd be happy to become janitors, it would drive the wages down, but somehow it doesn't.
It's actually quite funny that you seem to think a janitor job requires as much skill/training as a McDonald's employee - only shows your ivory tower elitism. The job is not just about sweeping floors, but it requires some training/education in stuff like electricity, technology and the like and probably that's why it is beyond the grasp of your average McDonald's employee who "would be happy to become a janitor". :rolleyes:
The problem with modern Western societies is that physical work without a college/university degree is seen as degrading/bad - as your or garbon's outrage demonstrates quite clearly (at least you got a useful college degree). So we either have unskilled workers like your McDonald's employees, or people who are desperate to get some degree, and end up with useless stuff like pol-sci, sociology or gender studies, which effectively makes the investment made by the society into their education a waste. You do not have many people who go into under-grad "technical" schools which teach them how to be an electrician, a car mechanic or a plumber - so people who end up being educated for these professions get paid more than what you'd expect in your upper middle class ivory tower.
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2011, 06:38:29 PM
That's so surprising. But then I also posted an article in this thread where some janitors were raking in more than the principals.
I'm willing to bet there are people employed by the US government (especially consultants and the like) who get paid more than their "boss", the US President. So your statement is false.
Besides, the principal in a school is not really a "boss". He is not an executive, and the school is not a corporation. He is an administrator, employed by whoever owns the school (usually a school board) to do what his job description entails.
Also, even if you insist on blaming the unions for that, it doesn't really make sense. So, the union got janitors a sweet deal so they are paid more than teachers. But aren't teachers also unionized? Why can't they get a better/similar deal and be paid more, if it is really true that a teacher's work is worth more than a janitor's work? Are janitors so smart or such glib negotiators that they are getting a better deal than teachers? Or perhaps there is a janitor mafia which breaks your legs with broomsticks if you do not agree to the union's demands?
Now, I have seen grumbler and Tim, so I am willing to allow a possibility that an average US teacher could be outsmarted by an average janitor, but I think the fact that there is an over-abundance of teachers and a shortage of janitors is the real reason here, which translates into the janitor union having more bargaining power.
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2011, 03:11:08 AM
I suspect you have no idea what you are talking about. If there were plenty of people who'd be happy to become janitors, it would drive the wages down, but somehow it doesn't.
This presumes that there are no entry barriers created by unions or the state for political favors. But since you seem to know what being a janitor entails, wanna tell us what the requirements to be a janitor in New York are? Or is this pontificating based upon what you imagine?
A quick google turns up this link for private salaries in New YOrk: for janitors:http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-janitor/l-new+york,+ny
Yes. This is obviously due to a lack of janitors.
I appreciate that Marti sees schools as having unlimited funds and resources.
I also appreciate that Marti, who often tries so hard to paint himself as part of the elite, will lecture others about elitism.
Quote from: garbon on May 01, 2011, 11:38:17 AM
I appreciate that Marti sees schools as having unlimited funds and resources.
What the fuck are you talking about? You pay teachers a pittance because exactly schools have limited funds and resources.
Also, anyone who uses the verb "appreciate" in the sense you just did is a pretentious, conceited dick. This is not your gender studies debate workshop.
Quote from: Martinus on May 01, 2011, 12:00:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 01, 2011, 11:38:17 AM
I appreciate that Marti sees schools as having unlimited funds and resources.
What the fuck are you talking about? You pay teachers a pittance because exactly schools have limited funds and resources.
QuoteSo, the union got janitors a sweet deal so they are paid more than teachers. But aren't teachers also unionized? Why can't they get a better/similar deal and be paid more, if it is really true that a teacher's work is worth more than a janitor's work?
Janitors and teachers can't both make more.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 30, 2011, 03:31:56 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 29, 2011, 11:58:31 PM
Has anyone made a lame "they should be paid equally for having to deal with trash" wisecrack in this thread yet?
No, but I'll toss in a "My high school teachers didn't do jack for me, but at least the janitor kept the fucking paper towels in the bathroom filled".
I had two good teachers. Ever. Out of, what 50? That means that there's 96% bad teachers? For every one of grumbler or my mom, there are 24 pieces of shit. Fuck them. Give the janitors a raise.
I had mostly good or average teachers, with a few great ones, and only one that stands out in my mind as being terrible. Maye there were 1 or 2 other bad ones, but they weren't bad enough to leave an impression. This is in K-12, not college.
Also, the paper towel things were rarely filled at my schools. Same for toilet paper and soap dispensers. <_<