We really need a ChiCom smile.
Photos of the carriers here, and analysis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dfRAxXn0RE&feature=player_embedded
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2011040824838
Quote
Beijing plans to christen its first aircraft carrier "Shi Lang" after a Ming Dynasty admiral who conquered Taiwan in 1683. The Han Chinese leader defected from the Ming to the Qing Dynasty and accomplished great feats. His name befits the vessel whose nationality was changed from Ukrainian to Chinese and is associated with the rise and fall of great world powers. What is the South Korean military and government doing to assess the potential impact of China's possession of an aircraft carrier on national security?
lulz, OH NO THEYD NEVR ATTACK TAIWAN THEIR SO CAPITALISTIC NOW
QuoteChina purchased the 67,500-ton Varyag, an unfinished aircraft carrier, at 200 million U.S. dollars from Ukraine in 1998 under the pretext of reconstructing the vessel as a maritime hotel. The purpose of the vessel was changed, however, and Beijing will soon launch it as an aircraft carrier.
Somebody do me a big favor, and post this over at EUOT forum, and jam it up the collective Euroweenie peacnik asses that gave me a bunch of shit over this back in 2002. Tell them I TOLD YOU SO YOU STUPID SWEDISH FUCKS.
Except it's a Russian ship. No doubt the first time a plane tries to land on it, the deck will fall off or something. I wouldn't be too worried.
I'm surprised they are actually going to that piece of junk to sea. I imagine it'll be primarily a training platform.
And if they named it the Zheng He you'd be pissing your pants about their bid to dominate the Indian ocean.
Quote from: Faeelin on April 10, 2011, 09:21:37 PM
And if they named it the Zheng He you'd be pissing your pants about their bid to dominate the Indian ocean.
If only they'd name it after one of those Chinese guys who discovered America.
Quote from: garbon on April 10, 2011, 09:29:19 PM
If only they'd name it after one of those Chinese guys who discovered America.
That was also Zheng He. ;)
It's kind of hilarious that they'd name it after a traitor who sold out their country to the northern barbarians who imposed colonial rule and imperialism on China. It's like the Russians naming a carrier the Vlassov, or a USS Benedict Arnold.
Quote from: Faeelin on April 10, 2011, 09:21:37 PM
And if they named it the Zheng He you'd be pissing your pants about their bid to dominate the Indian ocean.
You're damn right we would! :angry:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 10, 2011, 08:37:20 PM
lulz, OH NO THEYD NEVR ATTACK TAIWAN THEIR SO CAPITALISTIC NOW
Sabre-rattling = pussy way of attacking. The Chinks are going to do anything.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 10, 2011, 10:18:05 PM
The Chinks are going to do anything.
Freudian much?
Quote from: Ideologue on April 10, 2011, 09:34:06 PM
It's kind of hilarious that they'd name it after a traitor who sold out their country to the northern barbarians who imposed colonial rule and imperialism on China. It's like the Russians naming a carrier the Vlassov, or a USS Benedict Arnold.
I like the sound of that... :showoff:
He did do a nice job at Valcour Bay, even though it was a loss.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 10, 2011, 11:01:43 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 10, 2011, 09:34:06 PM
It's kind of hilarious that they'd name it after a traitor who sold out their country to the northern barbarians who imposed colonial rule and imperialism on China. It's like the Russians naming a carrier the Vlassov, or a USS Benedict Arnold.
I like the sound of that... :showoff:
He did do a nice job at Valcour Bay, even though it was a loss.
You have to admit he was fairly creative. I wonder what would have happened had he not been wounded, married a loyalist slut and then betrayed the US. He could have eclipsed Washington.
Eh, in a military sense maybe. He was a terrible businessman though, so peace time would have ruined him probably. I don't see him going into politics after his repeated run ins with the Continental Congress.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 10, 2011, 11:01:43 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 10, 2011, 09:34:06 PM
It's kind of hilarious that they'd name it after a traitor who sold out their country to the northern barbarians who imposed colonial rule and imperialism on China. It's like the Russians naming a carrier the Vlassov, or a USS Benedict Arnold.
I like the sound of that... :showoff:
He did do a nice job at Valcour Bay, even though it was a loss.
The more likely name is HMCS Benedict Arnold. :showoff:
Quote from: Barrister on April 10, 2011, 11:19:02 PM
The more likely name is HMCS Benedict Arnold. :showoff:
Genghis Khan is better-known than Benedict Arnold, and is just as Canadian.
HMCS Poutine
We name most of our boats after Indians name & artic explorers.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 11, 2011, 06:48:05 AM
We name most of our boats after Indians name & artic explorers.
what, the HMCS "We had the third largest navy in the world for 15 minutes in 1945!!!!111oneoneoneoneoen" will not be comissioned along with the HMCS "We burned down Washington D.C.!!!!!111111oneoneoneone" for service in the RCMP (Rubber Duck Division)?
@ Puff: :lol:
Just to set the record straight, were there actually any Canadian troops along on the Washington trip? I always assumed it was just British regulars.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 11, 2011, 09:13:23 AM
@ Puff: :lol:
Just to set the record straight, were there actually any Canadian troops along on the Washington trip? I always assumed it was just British regulars.
I'd have to look at the OOB's, but if IIRC, there was some Canuck militia along from the ride.
Quote from: Viking on April 11, 2011, 09:02:13 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 11, 2011, 06:48:05 AM
We name most of our boats after Indians name & artic explorers.
what, the HMCS "We had the third largest navy in the world for 15 minutes in 1945!!!!111oneoneoneoneoen" will not be comissioned along with the HMCS "We burned down Washington D.C.!!!!!111111oneoneoneone" for service in the RCMP (Rubber Duck Division)?
Name also have to be in both official language. That's just too much to ask for the side of a boat.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 10, 2011, 09:34:06 PM
It's kind of hilarious that they'd name it after a traitor who sold out their country to the northern barbarians who imposed colonial rule and imperialism on China. It's like the Russians naming a carrier the Vlassov, or a USS Benedict Arnold.
Eh, Ming had clearly lost the Mandate of Heaven by then.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 11, 2011, 09:28:05 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 11, 2011, 09:13:23 AM
Just to set the record straight, were there actually any Canadian troops along on the Washington trip? I always assumed it was just British regulars.
I'd have to look at the OOB's, but if IIRC, there was some Canuck militia along from the ride.
I don't believe that this is true, and it would be most unusual for militia to be taken on an expedition like this. There were presumably some soldiers in the British army who lived in Canucklestan before or after the war, but since there wasn't a "Canada" to possess troops at this time, there would have been "any Canadian troops" to go on the expedition.
China has an aircraft carrier. Good for them. A couple of ballistic missiles and it's sunk.
Sweet pic
http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/14/9447273-satellite-spots-chinas-first-aircraft-carrier-at-sea
DigitalGlobe / AP
This satellite image provided by the the DigitalGlobe Analysis Center shows the Chinese aircraft carrier Shi Lang (Varyag) sailing in the Yellow Sea. The picture was acquired Dec. 8 by DigitalGlobe's QuickBird satellite.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmsnbcmedia.msn.com%2Fj%2FMSNBC%2FComponents%2FPhoto%2F_new%2F111214-chinese-carrier-sailing-1145a.photoblog900.jpg&hash=a4cce2c5e9219abb4724329bd7738d7a3dad4f47)
QuoteAlan Boyle writes
A commercial satellite operator says it has captured a rare image of China's first aircraft carrier as it sailed through the Yellow Sea, after going through an exercise that's the 21st-century equivalent of finding a needle in a haystack.
DigitalGlobe said the aircraft carrier showed up on a cloud-filled picture snapped on Dec. 8 by its polar-orbiting QuickBird satellite from a height of 280 miles (450 kilometers). An analyst spotted the ship while checking the image on Tuesday, said Stephen Wood, the director of the company's analysis center.
"There is something that is always indispensable about having people involved," Wood told me. The ship was identified "using a combination of the satellite imagery plus open-source material on the Internet, and geography," he said, but "at the end of the day, it still comes down to a person."
Experts have been hoping for months to get a glimpse of the aircraft carrier at sea. The former Soviet Union started building the ship, originally known as the Varyag, but never finished it. After the Soviet breakup, the Varyag ended up in the hands of the Ukrainian government. The ship was auctioned off to the Chinese in 1998. Since then, the Varyag, which has reportedly been rechristened the Shi Lang, has been under refurbishment for sea service.
"This is a ship and a story that has had legs for many years," Wood said.
DigitalGlobe said this picture was taken during the carrier's second sea trial, approximately 62 miles (100 kilometers) south-southeast of the port of Dalian. Wood said the picture indicates that the ship is "moving at a decent rate of speed, which would be expected in the middle of the ocean." The U.S. military could no doubt glean more information about the Shi Lang's status, from QuickBird's pictures as well as from classified, higher-resolution imagery.
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China says the Shi Lang will be used for research and training, and the project is thought to be part of the country's strategy to expand its presence as a naval power. The Chinese military is expected to build more copies of the ship in coming years. In fact, sources told Reuters in July that a second aircraft carrier was under construction.
"China's next moves have to be watched carefully, or there eventually could be a negative impact on maritime safety in Asia," Yoshihiko Yamada, a professor at Japan's Tokai University, told Reuters at the time.
QuickBird's view of the Shi Lang serves as today's offering from the Cosmic Log Space Advent Calendar, which features an image of Earth from space every day from now until Christmas. Here are the past offerings in the series:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 14, 2011, 07:16:37 PM
http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/14/9447273-satellite-spots-chinas-first-aircraft-carrier-at-sea
That doesn't so much seem to be an aircraft carrier as just a carrier. And since the only thing I can identify on the flight deck is something like a lorry or mobile crane, could you more accurately describe it as a car ferry ? :P
Quote from: Sahib on April 11, 2011, 10:45:07 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 10, 2011, 09:34:06 PM
It's kind of hilarious that they'd name it after a traitor who sold out their country to the northern barbarians who imposed colonial rule and imperialism on China. It's like the Russians naming a carrier the Vlassov, or a USS Benedict Arnold.
Eh, Ming had clearly lost the Mandate of Heaven by then.
:yes:
The Qing dynasty is not viewed as evil in Chinese history. It is considered the rightful heir to Ming. At the point when the Qing conquered Taiwan, the Ming were traitors that deserve to be destroyed.
At any point in Chinese history, there is always a rightful faction that has the mandate of heaven. All the others are bandits, thieves, usurpers, barbarians etc :bowler:
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 07:39:20 PM
Quote from: Sahib on April 11, 2011, 10:45:07 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 10, 2011, 09:34:06 PM
It's kind of hilarious that they'd name it after a traitor who sold out their country to the northern barbarians who imposed colonial rule and imperialism on China. It's like the Russians naming a carrier the Vlassov, or a USS Benedict Arnold.
Eh, Ming had clearly lost the Mandate of Heaven by then.
The Qing dynasty is not viewed as evil in Chinese history. It is considered the rightful heir to Ming. At the point when the Qing conquered Taiwan, the Ming were traitors that deserve to be destroyed.
At any point in Chinese history, there is always a rightful faction that has the mandate of heaven. All the others are bandits, thieves, usurpers, barbarians etc :bowler:
Just as long as they don't screw up the Taiwanese bike industry I'm happy. :cool:
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2011, 07:46:50 PM
Just as long as they don't screw up the Taiwanese bike industry I'm happy. :cool:
Beijing has gone out of its way to help Taiwanese industry. Their strategic aim is to win the hearts and minds of the Taiwanese. Specific measures involve large scale investments by Chinese companies, the release of large numbers of mainland tourists, favourable trading terms with Taiwanese firms, incentives for Taiwanese firms to set up on the mainland etc. The factories that make the ipods and iphones are Taiwanese-owned and they operate on the mainland.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 07:55:26 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2011, 07:46:50 PM
Just as long as they don't screw up the Taiwanese bike industry I'm happy. :cool:
Beijing has gone out of its way to help Taiwanese industry. Their strategic aim is to win the hearts and minds of the Taiwanese. Specific measures involve large scale investments by Chinese companies, the release of large numbers of mainland tourists, favourable trading terms with Taiwanese firms, incentives for Taiwanese firms to set up on the mainland etc. The factories that make the ipods and iphones are Taiwanese-owned and they operate on the mainland.
Oh I know that, just that there bike industry is coming up with some rather innovative products.
The PRC doing hearts-and-minds shit? It's got to be a trap. The mainlanders are animals.
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:23:23 PM
The PRC doing hearts-and-minds shit? It's got to be a trap. The mainlanders are animals.
But the Taiwanese also know that they need the help. Their economy has stagnated, their costs too high and they can't really compete with the mainland anymore.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:23:23 PM
The PRC doing hearts-and-minds shit? It's got to be a trap. The mainlanders are animals.
But the Taiwanese also know that they need the help. Their economy has stagnated, their costs too high and they can't really compete with the mainland anymore.
Yeah, but it's better to be a little poor rather than getting mass-murdered by jackbooted thugs.
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:50:49 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:23:23 PM
The PRC doing hearts-and-minds shit? It's got to be a trap. The mainlanders are animals.
But the Taiwanese also know that they need the help. Their economy has stagnated, their costs too high and they can't really compete with the mainland anymore.
Yeah, but it's better to be a little poor rather than getting mass-murdered by jackbooted thugs.
This is indeed one of the biggest political issues in Taiwan. Half the population wants to accept mainland help and improve ties. The other half wants to cool down the relationship. The Taiwanese are becoming increasingly polarised over this.
But the way I see it, the choice isn't between "a little poor" and "a little bit better". HK's experience shows that it is more like a live or die decision.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 09:00:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:50:49 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:23:23 PM
The PRC doing hearts-and-minds shit? It's got to be a trap. The mainlanders are animals.
But the Taiwanese also know that they need the help. Their economy has stagnated, their costs too high and they can't really compete with the mainland anymore.
Yeah, but it's better to be a little poor rather than getting mass-murdered by jackbooted thugs.
This is indeed one of the biggest political issues in Taiwan. Half the population wants to accept mainland help and improve ties. The other half wants to cool down the relationship. The Taiwanese are becoming increasingly polarised over this.
But the way I see it, the choice isn't between "a little poor" and "a little bit better". HK's experience shows that it is more like a live or die decision.
Taiwan has far more options due to it's size, geography and wealth that HK simply did not have. The two are not comparable.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 14, 2011, 09:19:01 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 09:00:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:50:49 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:23:23 PM
The PRC doing hearts-and-minds shit? It's got to be a trap. The mainlanders are animals.
But the Taiwanese also know that they need the help. Their economy has stagnated, their costs too high and they can't really compete with the mainland anymore.
Yeah, but it's better to be a little poor rather than getting mass-murdered by jackbooted thugs.
This is indeed one of the biggest political issues in Taiwan. Half the population wants to accept mainland help and improve ties. The other half wants to cool down the relationship. The Taiwanese are becoming increasingly polarised over this.
But the way I see it, the choice isn't between "a little poor" and "a little bit better". HK's experience shows that it is more like a live or die decision.
Taiwan has far more options due to it's size, geography and wealth that HK simply did not have. The two are not comparable.
I don't know, I'm going to defer to Mono, as he's local, travels extensively in the region and has probably talked to a lot more people involve in the situation than you or I.
Well, the ROC has a decent chance of simply outliving the PRC. The last 25 years have shown that those type of regimes are brittle and can collapse very quickly. A year from now the PRC could be dead and buried and the mainland's new democratic provisional government could be in negotiations for reunification. While I wouldn't bet on it happening next year, it's not outside the realm of possibility.
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2011, 09:26:44 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 14, 2011, 09:19:01 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 09:00:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:50:49 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:23:23 PM
The PRC doing hearts-and-minds shit? It's got to be a trap. The mainlanders are animals.
But the Taiwanese also know that they need the help. Their economy has stagnated, their costs too high and they can't really compete with the mainland anymore.
Yeah, but it's better to be a little poor rather than getting mass-murdered by jackbooted thugs.
This is indeed one of the biggest political issues in Taiwan. Half the population wants to accept mainland help and improve ties. The other half wants to cool down the relationship. The Taiwanese are becoming increasingly polarised over this.
But the way I see it, the choice isn't between "a little poor" and "a little bit better". HK's experience shows that it is more like a live or die decision.
Taiwan has far more options due to it's size, geography and wealth that HK simply did not have. The two are not comparable.
I don't know, I'm going to defer to Mono, as he's local, travels extensively in the region and has probably talked to a lot more people involve in the situation than you or I.
Mono has a somewhat...unique perspective on many things.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 14, 2011, 09:19:01 PM
Taiwan has far more options due to it's size, geography and wealth that HK simply did not have. The two are not comparable.
The last time Taiwan held a presidential election, the population overwhelmingly elected the party that supported engagement with Beijing. There is a good reason for that. Under the pro-independence party, Taiwan's economy went down the gutter. Taiwan's major competitive advantage used to be in electronics. But now all the factories have moved to the mainland. They have yet to develop another growth area. They don't really have many options left besides accepting Beijing's help.
HK is significantly wealthier than Taiwan on a per capita GDP basis. Taiwan is obviously larger than HK, but the population is only 3 times larger - i.e. it is still small at 21 million or so. Both HK and Taiwan are small economies that depend heavily on external trading.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 14, 2011, 09:43:13 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2011, 09:26:44 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 14, 2011, 09:19:01 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 09:00:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:50:49 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:23:23 PM
The PRC doing hearts-and-minds shit? It's got to be a trap. The mainlanders are animals.
But the Taiwanese also know that they need the help. Their economy has stagnated, their costs too high and they can't really compete with the mainland anymore.
Yeah, but it's better to be a little poor rather than getting mass-murdered by jackbooted thugs.
This is indeed one of the biggest political issues in Taiwan. Half the population wants to accept mainland help and improve ties. The other half wants to cool down the relationship. The Taiwanese are becoming increasingly polarised over this.
But the way I see it, the choice isn't between "a little poor" and "a little bit better". HK's experience shows that it is more like a live or die decision.
Taiwan has far more options due to it's size, geography and wealth that HK simply did not have. The two are not comparable.
I don't know, I'm going to defer to Mono, as he's local, travels extensively in the region and has probably talked to a lot more people involve in the situation than you or I.
Mono has a somewhat...unique perspective on many things.
And you think you don't ? :mellow:
:rolleyes: Of course the Chinamen are sailing in the "Yellow Sea". For shame, Tim.
Quote from: mongers on December 14, 2011, 09:26:44 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 14, 2011, 09:19:01 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 09:00:52 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:50:49 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 14, 2011, 08:23:23 PM
The PRC doing hearts-and-minds shit? It's got to be a trap. The mainlanders are animals.
But the Taiwanese also know that they need the help. Their economy has stagnated, their costs too high and they can't really compete with the mainland anymore.
Yeah, but it's better to be a little poor rather than getting mass-murdered by jackbooted thugs.
This is indeed one of the biggest political issues in Taiwan. Half the population wants to accept mainland help and improve ties. The other half wants to cool down the relationship. The Taiwanese are becoming increasingly polarised over this.
But the way I see it, the choice isn't between "a little poor" and "a little bit better". HK's experience shows that it is more like a live or die decision.
Taiwan has far more options due to it's size, geography and wealth that HK simply did not have. The two are not comparable.
I don't know, I'm going to defer to Mono, as he's local, travels extensively in the region and has probably talked to a lot more people involve in the situation than you or I.
Mono has no grasp of, or knowledge about, the basic concepts of freedom, democracy and humanity. So no, you shouldn't defer to Mono, as he'd steamroll Taiwan faster than his wife steamrolls him.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on April 10, 2011, 11:10:43 PM
Eh, in a military sense maybe. He was a terrible businessman though, so peace time would have ruined him probably. I don't see him going into politics after his repeated run ins with the Continental Congress.
I always thought that "continental congress" sounds rather kinky. Like something a married man does with his lover who is wearing a French maid's outfit and spanking him with a celery stalk.
On the other hand, "English congress" is probably something bland, like having a missionary position sex with one's wife with the lights on.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 15, 2011, 02:22:58 AM
Mono has no grasp of, or knowledge about, the basic concepts of freedom, democracy and humanity. So no, you shouldn't defer to Mono, as he'd steamroll Taiwan faster than his wife steamrolls him.
You underestimate my wife :P
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2011, 09:45:25 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 14, 2011, 09:19:01 PM
Taiwan has far more options due to it's size, geography and wealth that HK simply did not have. The two are not comparable.
The last time Taiwan held a presidential election, the population overwhelmingly elected the party that supported engagement with Beijing. There is a good reason for that. Under the pro-independence party, Taiwan's economy went down the gutter. Taiwan's major competitive advantage used to be in electronics. But now all the factories have moved to the mainland. They have yet to develop another growth area. They don't really have many options left besides accepting Beijing's help.
HK is significantly wealthier than Taiwan on a per capita GDP basis. Taiwan is obviously larger than HK, but the population is only 3 times larger - i.e. it is still small at 21 million or so. Both HK and Taiwan are small economies that depend heavily on external trading.
What is the opinion of reunification with the mainland under a "Two systems, one nation" scheme like HK and Macau?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 15, 2011, 05:32:17 AM
What is the opinion of reunification with the mainland under a "Two systems, one nation" scheme like HK and Macau?
Very, very few Taiwanese accept that. The majority want the status quo.