Languish.org

QuoteDozens held in Turkish 'coup plot' 

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Former heads of the air force and the navy were among those arrested on Monday [Reuters]

More than 40 people have been arrested in Turkey in connection with an alleged military plot to undermine the government and trigger a coup, the prime minister has said.

"This morning our security forces began a detention process. As of now, more than 40 people have been detained," Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Monday.

Former heads of the air force, navy and other senior officers were among those detained, local media reported.

The swoop follows reports of several alleged plots in the past year which have strained relations between the ruling AK Party and the military.

The CNN-Turk and NTV news channels said police arrested Ibrahim Firtina, former air force chief, Ozden Ornek, the former navy chief and at least five other retired top officials.

Those held were taken to Istanbul for questioning by anti-terror police.

'Psychological campaign'

Firtina and Ornek were linked to a purported 2003 plot to discredit the AKP government, a plan revealed by the liberal Taraf daily in January.

The plan, codenamed "Sledgehammer", involved bombing two Istanbul mosques and escalating tensions with Greece by forcing Greek jets to down a Turkish plane over the Aegean Sea.

The act would have been an attempt to show the Turkish government as inept, according to documents obtained by Taraf.

The Turkish army said the documents were discussed in a seminar on war-time contingency plans, but denied they represented a coup plot.

The allegations have caused Basbug to complain of a "psychological campaign" to smear the army and warn of a possible "confrontation between institutions".

Prosecutors so far have charged more than 400 people in the case, including soldiers as well as academics, journalists and politicians.

Turkey's secular military has ousted four governments since 1960, proof to many that it has been the real power in the country since Mustafa Kemal
Ataturk set up the republic from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire.

Under EU pressure, however, Erdogan has dramatically curtailed the military's power and reinforced its place under civilian rule, while also bolstering democratic institutions.

On Sunday, the prime minister announced new plans to overhaul the judiciary and the Constitution, a legacy of the 1980 military coup.

Spellus, do you need someone to post bail?  :unsure:

Just kidding, but can you give us any insight into what's happening there?

Doesn't the turkish army consider itself the guardian of Attaturk's legacy (the secular republic)?  I think there's a history of 'coups' where the army intervenes to prevent the government from threatening that legacy.  With islamists in power I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner.




G.

Quote from: Grallon on February 22, 2010, 11:37:48 AM
Doesn't the turkish army consider itself the guardian of Attaturk's legacy (the secular republic)?  I think there's a history of 'coups' where the army intervenes to prevent the government from threatening that legacy.  With islamists in power I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner.




G.

According to the article there have been four coups by the military since 1960.  Also according to the article, in their attempt to join the EU Turkey has curtailed the power of the military and expanded their democratic institutions.

Hasnt there been a lot of these so called coup attempts lately though? :hmm:

Starting to wonder if the oh so democratic goverment isnt starting to show its true colours. :hmm:

Quote from: Cecil on February 22, 2010, 12:21:45 PM
Hasnt there been a lot of these so called coup attempts lately though? :hmm:

Starting to wonder if the oh so democratic goverment isnt starting to show its true colours. :hmm:

If only things were that simple... but in Turkey they don't have a single divide 'secular moderates' against 'religious fanatics'. There is also 'religious moderates', 100% democratic,  and sadly 'secular fanatics', far too close to Turanian-flavored Nazism for comfort. 

 :hmm: Don't let them into the EU... Let them join the US!!!!

Quote from: Cecil on February 22, 2010, 12:21:45 PM

Starting to wonder if the oh so democratic goverment isnt starting to show its true colours. :hmm:

I just hope the shit will not hit the fan during the Languish meet, but I think that is the case.

Istanbul to Greece. :a:

Get the city back into Christian hands AND nullify the "part of Turkey is in Europe" argument.

Hm, so in Turkey you currently can choose between a "democratically" elected islamist government and a secular military.

:hmm:

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 02:19:17 AM

Quote from: Cecil on February 22, 2010, 12:21:45 PM

Starting to wonder if the oh so democratic goverment isnt starting to show its true colours. :hmm:

I just hope the shit will not hit the fan during the Languish meet, but I think that is the case.

If the worst happens we can always take refuge in the Swiss embassy  :cool:

Quote from: Jaron on February 23, 2010, 02:26:12 AM
Istanbul to Greece. :a:

Get the city back into Christian hands AND nullify the "part of Turkey is in Europe" argument.

Better yet:  Greece to Turkey.

Gets Greece out of the EU and nullifies the existance of Greece, both worthy goals.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 23, 2010, 03:37:34 AM

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 02:19:17 AM

Quote from: Cecil on February 22, 2010, 12:21:45 PM

Starting to wonder if the oh so democratic goverment isnt starting to show its true colours. :hmm:

I just hope the shit will not hit the fan during the Languish meet, but I think that is the case.

If the worst happens we can always take refuge in the Swiss embassy  :cool:

:lol:

Allegedly, there have been more than 100 people (journalists, officers, etc) arrested in the last two years due to their "participation" in this coup that never happened. In other words, this is bullshit. Also, reportedly, the Turkish Chief of Staff cancelled a visit to Egypt and meets with his staff instead.

Making false accusations of betrayal is the most basic plot the communists used during the 50s to handle their internal fightings. So this whole affair has "dictatoric power consolidation 101) written all over it.

It would, of course, be unthinkable for the military to intervene in Turkish politics.

Quote from: Alatriste on February 23, 2010, 01:46:12 AM

If only things were that simple... but in Turkey they don't have a single divide 'secular moderates' against 'religious fanatics'. There is also 'religious moderates', 100% democratic,  and sadly 'secular fanatics', far too close to Turanian-flavored Nazism for comfort.

Gutting the military is in the long term interest of Turkey; eventually the CHP will become more of a traditional European Social Democrat party, while the AKP becomes a Christian (read: Muslim) Democrat party.  Turkey is more or less under America's nuclear umbrella, and they could easily whip any of their neighbors even if they cut down on defense spending and got rid of the nutty, inherently unequal Military Service, and the creepy, Fascist-like militancy and cult of Attaturk.  I'm currently living behind a Turkish grade school, and sometimes in the mornings I wake up to kids marching and shouting out Attaturk speeches. 

I very, very, very seriously doubt that Islamism as known in Iran or Saudi Arabia, let along Afghanistan, will make any kind of significant comeback here.  The Anatolian middle class is religious, but they watch soap operas with insanely hot women and buy condoms through a delivery service at night.  This is undoubtbly a crucial and awkward time in Turkey's return to Europe, but I the country is very, very close to reaching a point where modernization becomes kind of self-catalyzing and permanent.  I just don't think that Fundementalism can compare with Beren Saat's wonderful, lithe yet surprisingly pillowy breasts and adorable face. :wub:
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Question:  Is that for real, or is it similar to the way that you think that Iran is about to go all Western?

Quote from: Neil on February 23, 2010, 09:26:56 AM
Question:  Is that for real, or is it similar to the way that you think that Iran is about to go all Western?

There is awkwardness, but it is not even on the scale of the Victorian return to Prudishness, let alone a full-fledged Iranian Religious and Social revolution.  I don't think there is a real possibility of an honest-to-Allah Islamist republic in Turkey, at least not without a long period of social turmoil and conflict, possibly after a Military Coup, which is far more likely.  As Al said, the Turkish Nationalists are far, far worse than most Turkish Muslims, who are skeptical of Christians in one breath and inhale Raki and jerk off to porn with the next. 

This country seems to be in the midst of something of a sexual revolution, though.  I find that hard to square with an actual Islamist revolution.

One of the most advanced  nations, a nation of great writers, philosophers, musicians etc. became the most effective and evil killingmachine the world has seen, in a single generation (or two).
Knowing that, and Balkanism in general (I sadly know more about the latter than you people will ever do), let me be a bit sceptical about a nation full of ignorant east european/asian muslim-religioned people not being able to make the switch from secural fascism to religious fascism in short order.

And yes, religious fascism<secualr fascism. As I understand, anti-religiousness (and that means anti-muslim) is the cornerstone of the Atatürkian fascism (I guess the guy very correctly IDed that religious zeal would ruin Turkey), and as such, is a perfect slowdown for the spread of mooslimb whackiness. Europe needs secular fascist Turkey.

Quote from: Syt on February 23, 2010, 02:34:23 AM
Hm, so in Turkey you currently can choose between a "democratically" elected islamist government and a secular military.

:hmm:

When Algeria elected the islamists, the military made a coup and no western nation said anything bad. Liberal Democracy at its best.

Quote from: Tamas
One of the most advanced nations, a nation of great writers, philosophers, musicians etc. became the most effective and evil killingmachine the world has seen, in a single generation (or two).

The USSR was not Evil.  :mad:

Tamas, you are ignorant, and I've stopped paying attention to you on this issue.    :)

Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2010, 10:06:54 AM
Tamas, you are ignorant, and I've stopped paying attention to you on this issue.    :)

:mad:

I'm sorry, but I really can't take you seriously after you claim an experience bonus over me thanks to a shared "Balkan mentality" (although Hungary is only occasionally considered part of the Balkans), when I'm living here and have extensively studied Turkish culture and politics.  You are starting to descend in to Sarah Palin Putin-Poking levels. 

We do not accept your claim of Overlord of Turkish knowledge.

Frankly, I also think that your experiences with Religion, Islam in particular, let alone Turkish Islam, are extremely limited and are therefore suspect.  How many Muslims have you met in your life?  How much beyond propaganda do you know?  Have you ever lived in a religious society?

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 23, 2010, 10:30:40 AM
We do not accept your claim of Overlord of Turkish knowledge.

:lol:
I am merely crown regent in Tuna's absence, and have no further ambition on that front. 

Quote from: Jaron on February 23, 2010, 02:26:12 AM
Istanbul to Greece. :a:

At least Turkey is not bankrupt.

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 09:56:00 AM
One of the most advanced  nations, a nation of great writers, philosophers, musicians etc. became the most effective and evil killingmachine the world has seen, in a single generation (or two).

But enough about how America's rise to hegemony over the bones of Europe.

:yeah:

The Turkish military has a long history of democratic coups d'etat.

Well, I have to work with the sources I got.

My stance on this formed when the educated westerners of this forum ejaculated in joy during the various liberalization of religious symbol-wearing reforms of the turkish government. The idea, that the people (any people) would elect a religious party, because they want secular liberal reforms is kinda crazy. To make a Martinus-y over-the-top example, you don't vote Christian Democrat if you want to have pot legalized.

It's just that... in a vast nation ripe with hidden and forced-down conflicts and (I guess) rural population, I can't envision a dominating secular middle class. The lack of that has been the bane of everything east of western europe, since who knows when. Now, it is a very good argument that they dont have much chance to grow if they cant say a sentence without including the desire to suck Atatürk's cock in it. But, adhering to religious populism will not help either. Surely not on the long run.

With all that, I am viewing the issue from the point of someone not living in Turkey, but affected by what kind of shit hits the fan there. For non-turkish europeans, a secular dictatorship is a much safer bet than the wild roll of a dice, which the unleashing of the non-seculars would be.

Turkey didn't side with the Nazis.  And it wasn't a soviet puppet state.  That's 2 points for Turkey over Hungary.

Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
Turkey didn't side with the Nazis.  And it wasn't a soviet puppet state.  That's 2 points for Turkey over Hungary.

The Raz makes a pretty compelling point.

Quote from: Berkut on February 23, 2010, 11:49:48 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
Turkey didn't side with the Nazis.  And it wasn't a soviet puppet state.  That's 2 points for Turkey over Hungary.

The Raz makes a pretty compelling point.

I was waiting for a Mohacs joke :P

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 11:52:05 AM

Quote from: Berkut on February 23, 2010, 11:49:48 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
Turkey didn't side with the Nazis.  And it wasn't a soviet puppet state.  That's 2 points for Turkey over Hungary.

The Raz makes a pretty compelling point.

I was waiting for a Mohacs joke :P

Fuck, you people have sucked since Otto anal raped your nation at Lechfeld.

Actually, they sucked before that.  They were the bitches of Aryans, and then the bitches of Turks, who forced them in to one of the Steppe's primary retirement homes; the Pannonian Plane. 

Quote from: Berkut on February 23, 2010, 11:49:48 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
Turkey didn't side with the Nazis.  And it wasn't a soviet puppet state.  That's 2 points for Turkey over Hungary.

The Raz makes a pretty compelling point.

I don't even know what is being discussed.  I just like attacking eastern Europeans.

Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2010, 01:23:01 PM

Quote from: Berkut on February 23, 2010, 11:49:48 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
Turkey didn't side with the Nazis.  And it wasn't a soviet puppet state.  That's 2 points for Turkey over Hungary.

The Raz makes a pretty compelling point.

I don't even know what is being discussed. 

I suspect that is the secret to your success.

Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2010, 01:15:43 PM
Actually, they sucked before that.  They were the bitches of Aryans, and then the bitches of Turks, who forced them in to one of the Steppe's primary retirement homes; the Pannonian Plane.

Did the mighty Ottomans ever manage to conquer entire Hungary? No. We stopped them :P We bled dry in the process, but we stopped them.

And whoever pushed us out of Ukraine we owe him one.

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 01:38:07 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2010, 01:15:43 PM
Actually, they sucked before that.  They were the bitches of Aryans, and then the bitches of Turks, who forced them in to one of the Steppe's primary retirement homes; the Pannonian Plane.

Did the mighty Ottomans ever manage to conquer entire Hungary? No. We stopped them :P We bled dry in the process, but we stopped them.

And whoever pushed us out of Ukraine we owe him one.

Where were you in this is whole process?

Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2010, 01:41:37 PM

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 01:38:07 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2010, 01:15:43 PM
Actually, they sucked before that.  They were the bitches of Aryans, and then the bitches of Turks, who forced them in to one of the Steppe's primary retirement homes; the Pannonian Plane.

Did the mighty Ottomans ever manage to conquer entire Hungary? No. We stopped them :P We bled dry in the process, but we stopped them.

And whoever pushed us out of Ukraine we owe him one.

Where were you in this is whole process?

Much closer than Psellus to his admired mounted goat herders.

Oh yeah; Ukraine is such a TERRIBLE place.  It just has the best soil in the world, a lot of coal, and some of the best rivers for hydro-electricity.  Terrible, awful place.  Who would live there when they have vampire-infested mountains and goat-speckled hills? 

And you didn't stop the Ottomans; the Saffavids and the intervention of the Poles did. 

Quote
Much closer than Psellus to his admired mounted goat herders.

My ancestors were in France, England and on the Crusade. Yours were the primitive woodland peoples conquered and subjugated by Slavs.  About the same distance. 

Queequee is right - I just got done saving the Hungarians while going on to win the game in Here I Stand at NBW, so it must be true.

Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2010, 01:54:27 PM
Oh yeah; Ukraine is such a TERRIBLE place.  It just has the best soil in the world, a lot of coal, and some of the best rivers for hydro-electricity.  Terrible, awful place.  Who would live there when they have vampire-infested mountains and goat-speckled hills? 

And you didn't stop the Ottomans; the Saffavids and the intervention of the Poles did. 

Quote
Much closer than Psellus to his admired mounted goat herders.

My ancestors were in France, England and on the Crusade. Yours were the primitive woodland peoples conquered and subjugated by Slavs.  About the same distance.

FYI, neither Raz, nor I was serious about this "my great-great-great-great-great-great granddad could beat up your great-great-great-great-great-great granddad" thing. It is very lame.
Still, for historical accuracy, we conquered the slavs, not vice versa. Even they admit that much.

And for Ukraine: it sucks. Present and historical suckiness aside, every people there on the plains were slavified, we choosed to have mountains as borders and managed to survive. Which in fact, I think is a pretty nice accomplishment considering the circumstances.

Aaanyway, back to topic. There is one hot-headed Turk over at Paradox, who claims you can get into trouble if your wife is no scarfed. Is that true? Or they are not that enlightened yet? The guy claims to know several of the arrested officers, so he is not exactly an unemtional source.  :hmm:

Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2010, 10:27:00 AM
I'm sorry, but I really can't take you seriously after you claim an experience bonus over me thanks to a shared "Balkan mentality" (although Hungary is only occasionally considered part of the Balkans), when I'm living here and have extensively studied Turkish culture and politics.  You are starting to descend in to Sarah Palin Putin-Poking levels.

You're too close to the issue.  You're unable to keep matters in perspective.

I was joking, too.  Hungary is an interesting place, and I have nothing against it.  Other than its inherit inferiority to both Greece and Turkey, that is. 

That would depend entirely upon the area of Turkey.  In Istanbul, in many of the neighborhoods I go to, I see fewer hijabs and niqabs than I do on my hometown campus.  Go in to Van or thereabouts, and the situation is very different.  However, "the situation" is often due to the fact that the Kurdish population is very, very conservative. 

Quote from: Martim Silva on February 23, 2010, 10:02:18 AM
The USSR was not Evil.  :mad:

Yes it was.  There's no other word for it.

Quote from: Neil on February 23, 2010, 02:13:34 PM
There's no other word for it.

Heh, that phrase is for me always connected to Rio Bravo, where John Wayne speaks those words. Which in my mind just caused Nixon to speak with the Duke's voice.

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 02:03:59 PM

Still, for historical accuracy, we conquered the slavs, not vice versa. Even they admit that much.

Who were those guys who ran your country from 1945 to 1989?  Displaced Bushmen?

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 02:03:59 PM
Still, for historical accuracy, we conquered the slavs, not vice versa. Even they admit that much.

Magyar urheimat is part of Russia, you were part of Russian sphere for most of the last century, and frankly, you guys are Slavs with an agglutination fetish; the material distinction in the Dark Ages between Magyars, Turks and Slavs (who, remember, were always in contact with Steppe people anyway) is often quite difficult, and genetically there is no distinction.

Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2010, 02:44:22 PM

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 02:03:59 PM
Still, for historical accuracy, we conquered the slavs, not vice versa. Even they admit that much.

Magyar urheimat is part of Russia, you were part of Russian sphere for most of the last century, and frankly, you guys are Slavs with an agglutination fetish; the material distinction in the Dark Ages between Magyars, Turks and Slavs (who, remember, were always in contact with Steppe people anyway) is often quite difficult, and genetically there is no distinction.

If we continue the derail:

Only second half of the last century. And one of the very national issues I would be willing to die for, is to avoid being a Russian vassal again.

That is a cornerstone of being a "magyar" I believe. The drive to fight against all ods pulling you the other direction, and remain part of the western cultural sphere.

As for national identity and genetics. I think it is very misleading and damaging to mix the two. Of course in my generation, there are only meager direct genetic "remains" of the steppe people who called themselves magyars and lived at the foot of the Ural mountains. There has been research regarding that. Does that matter in determining who a magyar is now? Hardly.
Nationality is entirely a cultural thing, I believe. And yes, Hungarians are the perfect example. Magyars, Slavs, Cumans, Turks, Germans etc. all ended up calling themselves Hungarian.

First you have to join the western Sphere.

The only good thing Turks ever did was killing off Armenians. However they did not do a sufficiently good work of it, because they did not slaughter Queequeg's ancestors.

Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2010, 03:49:05 PM
The only good thing Turks ever did was killing off Armenians. However they did not do a sufficiently good work of it, because they did not slaughter Queequeg's ancestors.

Neil is much better at this than you.  Give it up.

Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2010, 03:49:05 PM
The only good thing Turks ever did was killing off Armenians. However they did not do a sufficiently good work of it, because they did not slaughter Queequeg's ancestors.

:huh:

I didn't think he was actually Armenian, just has a hard on for them.

Quote from: katmai on February 23, 2010, 03:51:50 PM

Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2010, 03:49:05 PM
The only good thing Turks ever did was killing off Armenians. However they did not do a sufficiently good work of it, because they did not slaughter Queequeg's ancestors.

:huh:

I didn't think he was actually Armenian, just has a hard on for them.

Really? So he has a hard on for Turks, Armenians, Russians and Kanye West. Wtf.

Kanye West is nowhere near my favorite Hip-Hop artist, I just pointed out how retarded you were being. I listen to OutKast, Nas, The Roots, Wu-Tang and associated acts, and Public Enemy way more often.   :huh:

Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2010, 09:21:22 AM
Gutting the military is in the long term interest of Turkey; eventually the CHP will become more of a traditional European Social Democrat party, while the AKP becomes a Christian (read: Muslim) Democrat party. 

I hope you are right and maybe you are.  But I have a bad feeling you may be drinking the AKP Kool-Aid on this.  The AKP has been acting more and more suspiciously ever since their poll ratings and local election results have dipped.  First there were the separate waves of mass arrests over the so-called Ergenekon conspiracy and the alleged coup plot in 09.  The ratio of wild accusations to actual hard evidence of guilt was far too high for my taste.

Now we have a wave of yet even more mass arrests, with even more extreme allegations (including plots of terror bombings), and lots of rhetoric about kemalism and the deep state -- and again a lack of anything that looks like hard evidence.

Now perhaps it is just a coincidence that the AKP poll ratings have been in decline since their 07 triumph, with the most recent results showing a only a slim margin over the CHP.  But at first glance, it kind of looks like the AKP is trying to shore up its deflating popular standing and energize its base by politing to the big bad  Kemalist-militarist bogeyman.  It looks like a ruling party using its almost unchecked control over the instruments of governance abusing the criminal justice system to carry out vendettas against political opponents and carry more grist to its propaganda machine.  And if it looks like a duck, and it smells like a duck, then you are going to have to do a little more to convince me it's just a harmless lamb kebab.

To get back to the original derail, my people "discovered" half the world. so what. Who you are now is way more important then what you were.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 23, 2010, 04:18:08 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 23, 2010, 09:21:22 AM
Gutting the military is in the long term interest of Turkey; eventually the CHP will become more of a traditional European Social Democrat party, while the AKP becomes a Christian (read: Muslim) Democrat party. 

I hope you are right and maybe you are.  But I have a bad feeling you may be drinking the AKP Kool-Aid on this.  The AKP has been acting more and more suspiciously ever since their poll ratings and local election results have dipped.  First there were the separate waves of mass arrests over the so-called Ergenekon conspiracy and the alleged coup plot in 09.  The ratio of wild accusations to actual hard evidence of guilt was far too high for my taste.

Now we have a wave of yet even more mass arrests, with even more extreme allegations (including plots of terror bombings), and lots of rhetoric about kemalism and the deep state -- and again a lack of anything that looks like hard evidence.

Now perhaps it is just a coincidence that the AKP poll ratings have been in decline since their 07 triumph, with the most recent results showing a only a slim margin over the CHP.  But at first glance, it kind of looks like the AKP is trying to shore up its deflating popular standing and energize its base by politing to the big bad  Kemalist-militarist bogeyman.  It looks like a ruling party using its almost unchecked control over the instruments of governance abusing the criminal justice system to carry out vendettas against political opponents and carry more grist to its propaganda machine.  And if it looks like a duck, and it smells like a duck, then you are going to have to do a little more to convince me it's just a harmless lamb kebab.

hmph, it's the same sentiment as expressed by the correspondent of one of our major news-magazines. He's been living there for a decade I believe and he's not all that optimistic about the stuff the AKP is pulling.

Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
To get back to the original derail, my people "discovered" half the world. so what. Who you are now is way more important then what you were.

Indeed. And that is why right-wingers are so lame: the achievment they are most proud of in their life is the only single one thing they themselves had nothing to do with: where they were born.

Heh............I'm really looking forward to the Istanbul visit now; Tamas and Spellus are off to a great start  :cool:

@Queequeg.  One thing to watch out for is that Istanbul is not Turkey. I apologise for being so tautological; however......for decades now I have been assured by tourists and travellers that the divide lies somewhere in the middle of Anatolia. Istanbul and other western Turkish cities are little different to places like Athens, less alien perhaps than a place like Sofia or Bucharest. But, I am assured, rural places in Eastern Turkey can be some of the most unpleasant places on the planet  :huh:

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 04:48:40 PM

Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
To get back to the original derail, my people "discovered" half the world. so what. Who you are now is way more important then what you were.

Indeed. And that is why right-wingers are so lame: the achievment they are most proud of in their life is the only single one thing they themselves had nothing to do with: where they were born.

Don't know about you, but I planned out where I was going to be born before hand.  I don't jump headfirst into a situation with out research.

Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
To get back to the original derail, my people "discovered" half the world. so what. Who you are now is way more important then what you were.

Is that a great achievement? I think the "discovered" people were probably happier as they were.

Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2010, 08:37:34 PM

Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
To get back to the original derail, my people "discovered" half the world. so what. Who you are now is way more important then what you were.

Is that a great achievement? I think the "discovered" people were probably happier as they were.

If they hadn't been discovered their descendants would be living in the Brass age (IIRC they'd have alot more access to zinc then tin).

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 23, 2010, 08:58:44 PM

Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2010, 08:37:34 PM

Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
To get back to the original derail, my people "discovered" half the world. so what. Who you are now is way more important then what you were.

Is that a great achievement? I think the "discovered" people were probably happier as they were.

If they hadn't been discovered their descendants would be living in the Brass age (IIRC they'd have alot more access to zinc then tin).

Also more would be alive.

And Tim, you aren't white. By "their descendants" you really should be saying "We'd still be living in the brass age"

Savage.

Quote from: Jaron on February 23, 2010, 10:49:11 PM
And Tim, you aren't white. By "their descendants" you really should be saying "We'd still be living in the brass age"

Savage.

Jaron, defender of Aragon and Castille.  :showoff:

Quote from: Jaron on February 23, 2010, 10:49:11 PM
And Tim, you aren't white. By "their descendants" you really should be saying "We'd still be living in the brass age"

Savage.

Neither are you.  The both of you are Mexicans.

Quote from: katmai on February 23, 2010, 03:51:50 PM

Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2010, 03:49:05 PM
The only good thing Turks ever did was killing off Armenians. However they did not do a sufficiently good work of it, because they did not slaughter Queequeg's ancestors.

:huh:

I didn't think he was actually Armenian, just has a hard on for them.

It's all just a symptom of the root problem:  His disdain for Western culture and civilization.  Familiarity breeds contempt, and so Spellus flits from culture to culture, whatever he feels is exotic.  One week, he's learning Russian, the next Persian, and now he's in love with Turkey.  Next month, I'll be hearing a lecture about the glories of Tadjiki culture.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 23, 2010, 05:19:36 PM
Heh............I'm really looking forward to the Istanbul visit now; Tamas and Spellus are off to a great start  :cool:

@Queequeg.  One thing to watch out for is that Istanbul is not Turkey. I apologise for being so tautological; however......for decades now I have been assured by tourists and travellers that the divide lies somewhere in the middle of Anatolia. Istanbul and other western Turkish cities are little different to places like Athens, less alien perhaps than a place like Sofia or Bucharest. But, I am assured, rural places in Eastern Turkey can be some of the most unpleasant places on the planet  :huh:

Istanbul less allien than the Paris of the Balkans?  :lmfao:
Typical pro-Turkish PC nonsense. Bucharest is the capital of a romance-speaking nation and that's a huge difference. I know about the record number of gypsies but guess what, there are gypsies in France and Paris as well (less though).

I know that you are British so bad at languages but you should know better.

Typical French. :rolleyes:

Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2010, 03:09:51 AM
Typical French. :rolleyes:

Typical garbon  :hug:

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 24, 2010, 03:06:43 AM
... the Paris of the Balkans?  :lmfao:

What does it take to become the "Paris of the Balkans" ?   :hmm:

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 24, 2010, 03:11:33 AM
Typical garbon  :hug:

Nah. Also is it a favorable thing to be compared to Paris? :tinfoil:

Quote from: Neil on February 24, 2010, 12:07:15 AM

Quote from: Jaron on February 23, 2010, 10:49:11 PM
And Tim, you aren't white. By "their descendants" you really should be saying "We'd still be living in the brass age"

Savage.

Neither are you.  The both of you are Mexicans.

I didnt claim to be.

 :huh: Errr. Bucharest is a shithole.

Quote from: Tamas on February 24, 2010, 03:22:52 AM
:huh: Errr. Bucharest is a shithole.

And what is Paris? :P

Quote from: Tamas on February 24, 2010, 03:22:52 AM
:huh: Errr. Bucharest is a shithole.

Thanks to Ceaucescu but before that it wasn't, with its extravagant architecture and cosmopolitan ambient. There was even a local version of the Champs-Elysées (Calea Victorei).

Quote from: citizen k on February 24, 2010, 03:12:48 AM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 24, 2010, 03:06:43 AM
... the Paris of the Balkans?  :lmfao:

What does it take to become the "Paris of the Balkans" ?   :hmm:

Behave like the French.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 24, 2010, 03:28:34 AM

Quote from: Tamas on February 24, 2010, 03:22:52 AM
:huh: Errr. Bucharest is a shithole.

Thanks to Ceaucescu but before that it wasn't, with its extragant architecture and cosmopolitan ambient. There was even a local version of the Champs-Elysées (Calea Victorei).

Well I dont know...

Don't get me wrong, the Romanians start to overtake us in terms of economical and societal (sp?) development, they seem to be willing to make reforms we are too afraid of, but:
what I do know is that Transylvania's Hungarian part was the major cultural center of the country pre-WW1. A staggering number of our brigthest artists, writers and poets came from there and some of the towns could only be rivalled by Budapest in terms of "liveliness"
Fast forward a few decades under Romanian rule and you see these cities a mere shallow shadows of their former self. That does not spell a pre-existent Romanian sopshistication to me.

Quote from: Tamas on February 24, 2010, 03:40:04 AM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 24, 2010, 03:28:34 AM

Quote from: Tamas on February 24, 2010, 03:22:52 AM
:huh: Errr. Bucharest is a shithole.

Thanks to Ceaucescu but before that it wasn't, with its extragant architecture and cosmopolitan ambient. There was even a local version of the Champs-Elysées (Calea Victorei).

Well I dont know...

Don't get me wrong, the Romanians start to overtake us in terms of economical and societal (sp?) development, they seem to be willing to make reforms we are too afraid of, but:
what I do know is that Transylvania's Hungarian part was the major cultural center of the country pre-WW1. A staggering number of our brigthest artists, writers and poets came from there and some of the towns could only be rivalled by Budapest in terms of "liveliness"
Fast forward a few decades under Romanian rule and you see these cities a mere shallow shadows of their former self. That does not spell a pre-existent Romanian sopshistication to me.

I'm not surprised to have a Hungarian being skeptical ;) You haven't claimed Erdely so you're not an ultra-nationalist though.

Bucarest was the pinnacle of Romanian sophistication and liveliness before WWII and the commie era. Of course the Wallachian and Moldavian countryside might be different ;)


As for the decline of Transylvania, WWII, the forcible removal of Germans and enforcement of communism did not help and that is an understatement.

Back to topic, Istanbul has lost much of its European character since a long time ago with the last great pogrom of the '60s as one of the last episodes. The remnants of the Greek Orthodox hierarchy do no count and are caught between the current islamist government and the Turanian-flavoured nazism as a poster said before.

Its "mediterranean" ambient is no different that what can be found in Tangiers yet I don't see people advocating Morocco's entry in the EU.

QuoteThe AKP has been acting more and more suspiciously ever since their poll ratings and local election results have dipped.  First there were the separate waves of mass arrests over the so-called Ergenekon conspiracy and the alleged coup plot in 09.  The ratio of wild accusations to actual hard evidence of guilt was far too high for my taste.

Mass arrests aimed entirely at the Armed Forces; I don't think any senior CHP members have been arrested.  When that happens, I'll be as/more concerned than you are. 

Quote
Now we have a wave of yet even more mass arrests, with even more extreme allegations (including plots of terror bombings), and lots of rhetoric about kemalism and the deep state -- and again a lack of anything that looks like hard evidence.

The Press is general AKP friendly, but Taraf is reasonably independent, and I don't think a ton of people here are disputing the authenticity of the Sledgehammer plot; engineer terrorist attacks at mosques (!), and then shoot down Greek airplanes (!!). 

Again, I think you are very seriously underestimating the brutality and stupidity of the Turkish military.  Quite a few senior CHP members are not big fans of the military; Deniz Baykal himself was arrested during one back in the day. 

Quote
And if it looks like a duck, and it smells like a duck, then you are going to have to do a little more to convince me it's just a harmless lamb kebab.

Erdoğan is not Putin or Chavez.  He is reforming the economy (I've run in to several anti-privatization protests, far more than anti--anti-Army protests), attempting to normalize relations with Greece and Armenia, attempting to continue with EU talks, opening markets in the Arab world, and attempting to rewrite Turkey's largely insane constitution.  If it reforms the economy like a duck, attempts to mend fences with their neighbors like a duck, and hopes to join the EU like a duck, you are going to have to show me more than skiddishness about the possibility of an army coup to prove that it is a quacking Adolf Hitler.

Now AK party has some definite interest in curtailing the military's role in Turkish politics.  But that is because even if Ergenekon isn't real, the truth is that there are very, very scary elements of the Turkish military and police that have, on several occasions, proven that they are willing to do just about anything to maintain their influence in Turkey.  They are violent (there's a very famous picture of the police officers who arrested Hrant Dink's killer posing with him with a Turkish flag), they have taken power before (many, many times), and, perhaps most importantly, they are economically and diplomatically retarded, and will drag this country back in to the isolated, semi-Fascist shithole it was.

Quote
But, I am assured, rural places in Eastern Turkey can be some of the most unpleasant places on the planet

Comparable to Sicily, Naples, Albania, probably more developed than Kosovo, and far safer than Chihuahua or Sonora. 

Turkey will, for the foreseeable future, be divided between Western Anatolia and Thrace, Cilicia, and Trabzon and East-Central and Eastern Anatolia (somewhat ironically, the border between "Western" and "Eastern" Turkey is just about what the border between the Seljuks and the Byzantines was during most of the Comnenus dynasty).  But so what?  America was the economic dynamo of the late 19th Century and early 20th, yet we still had to deal with a retrograde and poor South.  Italy is half Switzerland and half Morocco.  Turkey is far less divided than China or India.

Not to mention that Turkey west of Ankara and including most of the coast is the most important part of the country, where much of the people and all of the political and cultural centers are.     

Quote from: Neil on February 24, 2010, 12:11:11 AM
It's all just a symptom of the root problem:  His disdain for Western culture and civilization.  Familiarity breeds contempt, and so Spellus flits from culture to culture, whatever he feels is exotic.  One week, he's learning Russian, the next Persian, and now he's in love with Turkey.  Next month, I'll be hearing a lecture about the glories of Tadjiki culture.

There is some truth to this.  I went to the UK at a young age, and was gravely disappointed by the country; sunless days, utterly bland food, a seemingly dull culture that was far more a part of a shared American cultural sphere than I had anticipated.  My deep interest in German history was similarly shattered by how much I hated Berlin.  By the time I'd spent a year in Birmingham, my interest in Russia and the Eastern Med were firmly cemented, and my previous interests in Vikings and Celts a thing of the past. 

That said, I think you are underestimating how broad my sphere of interest has become.  I spend as much time reading about the sciences (primarily zoology) as I do about Armenian or Russian history, and I also have become far more interested in America.  And while I often have a particular passion at some time, I think it is a mistake to assume that I latch on to something, and then loose all interest in everything else. 

[fatherly advice]
Get your nose out of the books, fancy boy. The real world sucks, and get used to it.

Dead cultures are dead, get over it.

[/fatherly advice]

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 23, 2010, 05:19:36 PMI am assured, rural places in Eastern Turkey can be some of the most unpleasant places on the planet  :huh:

FYP to remove superfluous language.

Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2010, 09:08:17 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 23, 2010, 08:58:44 PM

Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2010, 08:37:34 PM

Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
To get back to the original derail, my people "discovered" half the world. so what. Who you are now is way more important then what you were.

Is that a great achievement? I think the "discovered" people were probably happier as they were.

If they hadn't been discovered their descendants would be living in the Brass age (IIRC they'd have alot more access to zinc then tin).

Also more would be alive.

I think I'd rather live on a modern reservation than have to live in a society where slavery and human sacrifice is common. That's just me.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 24, 2010, 09:36:08 AM
I think I'd rather live on a modern reservation than have to live in a society where slavery and human sacrifice is common. That's just me.

Dunno, I think having you on the sun altar being made ready to be done in for Quetzaacoatl (and you body then feasted on by the protein starved masses), would be not be too bad.  The Aztecs were ok in some of their problem solving.

Quote from: Queequeg on February 24, 2010, 08:13:53 AM
Mass arrests aimed entirely at the Armed Forces; I don't think any senior CHP members have been arrested.  When that happens, I'll be as/more concerned than you are. 

I wasn't aware that joining the armed forces resulted in the permanent loss of one's civil rights; that would seem to be a big disincentive to a military career.  Most of the people arrested are retired or former members of the military, i.e. civilians.  And last years arrest targeted journalists as well.  That is a little concerning.

Imagine if Obama arrested hundreds of former military officers claiming complicity with a Rumsfeld-led plot to direct agent provocateur terror attacks on the US homeland, and rounded up some radio talk show hosts for good measure; that is what this looks like.

QuoteThe Press is general AKP friendly, but Taraf is reasonably independent, and I don't think a ton of people here are disputing the authenticity of the Sledgehammer plot; engineer terrorist attacks at mosques (!), and then shoot down Greek airplanes (!!). 

I don't know what you mean by "here".  But this looks to me like a very strange sort of conspiracy.  The plot was allegedly drawn up in 2003; here we are seven years later and nothing of the sort ever happened, and all the alleged principals are quietly retired.  Usually criminal conspiracy requires some sort of overt act.

Meanwhile the military claims the alleged documents are not in their files and the arrestees are denying authenticity.  Perhaps they are not being entirely truthful, but there is good reason to believe these documents are not exactly what they are being made out to be.

QuoteErdoğan is not Putin or Chavez.  He is reforming the economy (I've run in to several anti-privatization protests, far more than anti--anti-Army protests), attempting to normalize relations with Greece and Armenia, attempting to continue with EU talks, opening markets in the Arab world, and attempting to rewrite Turkey's largely insane constitution.  .

It's lovely that Erdogan has converted to the Chicago School; so as i recall did Pinochet.  Promoting sensible policies does not make it impossible to simultaneously engage in abuses of legal process.  I happen to agree that AKP's economic and foreign policy has been an improvement over the past.  But that is totally irrelevant to the present question - the argument that the policy end justified improper means is very one employed by the military in the bad old days to explain away the coups.

QuoteNow AK party has some definite interest in curtailing the military's role in Turkish politics.  But that is because even if Ergenekon isn't real, the truth is that there are very, very scary elements of the Turkish military and police that have, on several occasions, proven that they are willing to do just about anything to maintain their influence in Turkey.  They are violent (there's a very famous picture of the police officers who arrested Hrant Dink's killer posing with him with a Turkish flag), they have taken power before (many, many times), and, perhaps most importantly, they are economically and diplomatically retarded, and will drag this country back in to the isolated, semi-Fascist shithole it was.

The last coup was decades ago; Turkey has been a functioning democracy for over 25 years now.  It was not the AKP that created a stable, democratic Turkey; the AKP is a free rider on that development.   The hysteria over the deep state and the risk of a coup is an absurd anachronism - the military stayed in their barracks in 2002 when AKP first won elections; in 2003 when Erdogan returned; in 07 when AKP won a crushing victory and when he met face-to-face with the Greek PM; last year during the headscarf affair.   The bad old days are long, long gone and not coming back.  Were it otherwise, Erdogan would have been dead in ditch years ago, instead of sending out police to make mass arrests.

Quote from: PDH on February 24, 2010, 09:42:16 AM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 24, 2010, 09:36:08 AM
I think I'd rather live on a modern reservation than have to live in a society where slavery and human sacrifice is common. That's just me.

Dunno, I think having you on the sun altar being made ready to be done in for Quetzaacoatl (and you body then feasted on by the protein starved masses), would be not be too bad.  The Aztecs were ok in some of their problem solving.

Tim would make an excellent Helot, don't ya think?

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 24, 2010, 09:36:08 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2010, 09:08:17 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 23, 2010, 08:58:44 PM

Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2010, 08:37:34 PM

Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
To get back to the original derail, my people "discovered" half the world. so what. Who you are now is way more important then what you were.

Is that a great achievement? I think the "discovered" people were probably happier as they were.

If they hadn't been discovered their descendants would be living in the Brass age (IIRC they'd have alot more access to zinc then tin).

Also more would be alive.

I think I'd rather live on a modern reservation than have to live in a society where slavery and human sacrifice is common. That's just me.

Yes yes, and you also would hate to be a Viking lord. We know all about your weirdness.

Quote from: citizen k on February 24, 2010, 03:12:48 AM

What does it take to become the "Paris of the Balkans" ?   :hmm:

You just need attitude; Detroit is the Paris of the Midwest.   :frog:

Quote from: Savonarola on February 24, 2010, 12:07:28 PM

Quote from: citizen k on February 24, 2010, 03:12:48 AM

What does it take to become the "Paris of the Balkans" ?   :hmm:

You just need attitude; Detroit is the Paris of the Midwest.   :frog:

As opposed to Paris, Texas?

Quote from: Syt on February 24, 2010, 12:08:50 PM

Quote from: Savonarola on February 24, 2010, 12:07:28 PM

Quote from: citizen k on February 24, 2010, 03:12:48 AM

What does it take to become the "Paris of the Balkans" ?   :hmm:

You just need attitude; Detroit is the Paris of the Midwest.   :frog:

As opposed to Paris, Texas?

Paris, Texas is the Paris of Texas. :alberta:

And a good movie. :)

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 24, 2010, 11:26:46 AM
Tim would make an excellent Helot, don't ya think?

at the crypteia there would be brawls to see who got the right to finish him...so yes, excellent.

Quote from: Tamas on February 23, 2010, 11:25:20 AM
Well, I have to work with the sources I got.

My stance on this formed when the educated westerners of this forum ejaculated in joy during the various liberalization of religious symbol-wearing reforms of the turkish government. The idea, that the people (any people) would elect a religious party, because they want secular liberal reforms is kinda crazy. To make a Martinus-y over-the-top example, you don't vote Christian Democrat if you want to have pot legalized.

Well I think that liberalisation's been good so far.  I don't want pot legalised or secular liberal reforms - not least because I'm not a secular liberal.  I want reforms to entrench Turkish democracy and general respect for human rights/rule of law and to treat minorities (such as the Kurds) better.  So far the AK Party's been better at that then the Kemalist ultras in the military or the opposition.

I find the idea that they're deeply dangerous and about to show their true colours ANY MINUTE NOW just very bizarre.  They've been in power for the best part of a decade and I just haven't seen a slide to tyranny.  As JR points out, though, they are starting to look like they'll probably lose the next election which I think is next year and that would be a good thing I think - only the truly special (Blair, Gladstone, FDR) deserve more than two terms.

QuoteNow we have a wave of yet even more mass arrests, with even more extreme allegations (including plots of terror bombings), and lots of rhetoric about kemalism and the deep state -- and again a lack of anything that looks like hard evidence.

I believe these arrests are connected with the 2003 plot, indeed I think they include the Admiral whose diary that liberal paper (Taraf?) got a hold of that started these investigations.  As far as I know - I'm doing a report on Turkish tax so I've been reading the Turkish press for the past few days - the police have 48 hours to detain and question these guys and then decide to release them or press charges.  So far they've pressed charges against 6-7 and released about the same number.

Now I know the strategy of creating chaos requiring a coup is bizarre to us - but it's one the Turkish military have used before. 

I think it is essential in a state like Turkey to diminish the power of the military and then to strip it of its feeling of invincibility.  If Turkish democracy is to be sustained then it needs to be clear that the military is very much below the law.  I'm sort of pleased by the unity of Turkish liberals such as the view represented by Taraf and the AKP agreeing on this.  It makes me suspect there's more to it than an anti-democratic, anti-liberal power-grab.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 24, 2010, 11:25:30 AM
The last coup was decades ago; Turkey has been a functioning democracy for over 25 years now.  It was not the AKP that created a stable, democratic Turkey; the AKP is a free rider on that development.   

Well the last coup was 1980, the last time the military removed an elected prime minister was 1997 and the last time an Army Chief of Staff made threatening noises about an elected government was within the past few years.  I don't think the Turkish military are aware that they're not meant to be interfering in politics any more.

Quote from: Savonarola on February 24, 2010, 12:10:51 PM
Paris, Texas is the Paris of Texas. :alberta:

Well-played!

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 24, 2010, 03:17:15 PM
Well the last coup was 1980, the last time the military removed an elected prime minister was 1997 and the last time an Army Chief of Staff made threatening noises about an elected government was within the past few years.  I don't think the Turkish military are aware that they're not meant to be interfering in politics any more.

1980 was a while ago.
The military did not remove anyone in 1997.  Erbakan was a PM in a minority coalition - always a precarious position.  Indeed his government was the second minority coalition of that election cycle.  The military memorandum made his position untenable not because it carried the threat of actual violence, but because the Army still had enough prestiage to make it impossible to continue without a real majority. 

As for "threatening noises" I am not sure what that means.  What I do know is that the Army has done absolutely nothing to prevent an Islamist government from exercising sweeping governmental power for most of the past decade, despite the hostility that government has for the traditional military institutions.

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 24, 2010, 03:11:21 PM
I believe these arrests are connected with the 2003 plot, indeed I think they include the Admiral whose diary that liberal paper (Taraf?) got a hold of that started these investigations.  As far as I know - I'm doing a report on Turkish tax so I've been reading the Turkish press for the past few days - the police have 48 hours to detain and question these guys and then decide to release them or press charges.  So far they've pressed charges against 6-7 and released about the same number.

Now I know the strategy of creating chaos requiring a coup is bizarre to us - but it's one the Turkish military have used before. 

Here is what is puzzling me - the documents in question relate a 2003 plot, which has a certain plausbility because that is the year Erdogan became PM (and thus a logical time for the Army to move).  But that raises a rather nagging objection: there was no actual 2003 coup attempt of any kind.  And that raises the rather puzzling question of why seven years later in the year 2010, we are now seeing mass arrests of retirees and assorted geriatric cases based on a supposed plot that never actually happened.

I had Turkish food for dinner both last night and tonight. :mmm:

Quote from: Caliga on February 24, 2010, 07:00:29 PM
I had Turkish food for dinner both last night and tonight. :mmm:

The Marathon station must have changed its menu.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 24, 2010, 06:19:04 PM

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 24, 2010, 03:11:21 PM
I believe these arrests are connected with the 2003 plot, indeed I think they include the Admiral whose diary that liberal paper (Taraf?) got a hold of that started these investigations.  As far as I know - I'm doing a report on Turkish tax so I've been reading the Turkish press for the past few days - the police have 48 hours to detain and question these guys and then decide to release them or press charges.  So far they've pressed charges against 6-7 and released about the same number.

Now I know the strategy of creating chaos requiring a coup is bizarre to us - but it's one the Turkish military have used before. 

Here is what is puzzling me - the documents in question relate a 2003 plot, which has a certain plausbility because that is the year Erdogan became PM (and thus a logical time for the Army to move).  But that raises a rather nagging objection: there was no actual 2003 coup attempt of any kind.  And that raises the rather puzzling question of why seven years later in the year 2010, we are now seeing mass arrests of retirees and assorted geriatric cases based on a supposed plot that never actually happened.

Well, I think in most countries if there was evidence that military commanders plotted a coup 7 years earlier but never actually pulled the trigger on it, there would be arrests made despite the passage of time.  I'm not saying that the situation is that clearcut--I really don't know--but it doesn't seem particularly implausible.

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 24, 2010, 07:01:37 PM
The Marathon station must have changed its menu.

Some dude named Kemal bought it a few weeks back.  He wears tons of cologne, gold chains, and has a very hairy chest and a huge moustache.  Maybe he is: a Turk.

Quote from: Caliga on February 24, 2010, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 24, 2010, 07:01:37 PM
The Marathon station must have changed its menu.

Some dude named Kemal bought it a few weeks back.  He wears tons of cologne, gold chains, and has a very hairy chest and a huge moustache.  Maybe he is: a Turk.

Derka Derka!

It is 3 AM and I am far too drunk on Raki and far too sexually satisfied to make a coherent response to Minsky's (good, as opposed to Tamas') argument, other than to say that I very, very seriously doubt that Turkey is in the midst of an Islamist revolution for personal reasons.

Quote from: Caliga on February 24, 2010, 07:00:29 PM
I had Turkish food for dinner both last night and tonight. :mmm:

Was it a: Delight?

Quote from: grumbler on February 24, 2010, 08:35:46 PM

Quote from: Caliga on February 24, 2010, 07:00:29 PM
I had Turkish food for dinner both last night and tonight. :mmm:

Was it a: Delight?

on a moonlit night?

Quote from: dps on February 24, 2010, 07:08:04 PM
Well, I think in most countries if there was evidence that military commanders plotted a coup 7 years earlier but never actually pulled the trigger on it, there would be arrests made despite the passage of time. 

In common law countries, conspiracy requires proof of an overt act in futherance.  I believe Turkey is a civil law country, but my recollection is that civil law regimes tend to be more stringent in terms of proof with respect to inchoate crimes.  The fact that considerable time has passed and there is no present danger makes the extreme nature of this law enforcement action harder to understand absent assuming a political motive.

According to my supervisor the cute Turkish chick he hired for out office in Istanbul is the daughter of a general, though he wasn't sure whether he as involved in all this.

She brought us Turkish Delight last week, though, which is all that really matters.

A colelague who was recently at our office down there said that Istanbul had some of the best food she ever had in her travels (she travels at least two or three times a year along non-tourist paths; France, Italy, Spain, Cuba, Mexico, East Asia etc. have all been covered so far).

Quote from: grumbler on February 24, 2010, 08:35:46 PM
Was it a: Delight?

The first night we had manti, which is basically like beef ravioli (or maybe more like a beef wonton) swimming in pepper butter topped with garlic yogurt.

Last night we had a pilaf with lamb kofte (meatballs), fried eggplant, toasted pistachios, currants, and tomato wedges. :cool:

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 24, 2010, 06:19:04 PM
Here is what is puzzling me - the documents in question relate a 2003 plot, which has a certain plausbility because that is the year Erdogan became PM (and thus a logical time for the Army to move).  But that raises a rather nagging objection: there was no actual 2003 coup attempt of any kind.  And that raises the rather puzzling question of why seven years later in the year 2010, we are now seeing mass arrests of retirees and assorted geriatric cases based on a supposed plot that never actually happened.

I think it's only recently that the details have come out - which strikes me as plausible given that by their very nature conspiracies are generally secretive.  I mean even in the US what Nixon was doing for much of his time in office wouldn't have been believed and wasn't really known at the time - that's without a Nixon-oriented deep state.  And there are lots of reasons coup-plots don't happen, I'd imagine more fail or don't even begin than are successfully executed.  This could have been party, I believe for example that in 2002 the Chief of the General Staff was replaced and the outgoing chief strongly protested because he considered his successor insufficiently willing to protect the Kemalist legacy. 

I think the situations in countries like Turkey, arguably Cold War Italy and certainly much of Latin America are a lot more murky than to simply dismiss an aborted or a failed coup attempt like this out of mind (or the contrary).

QuoteAs for "threatening noises" I am not sure what that means.  What I do know is that the Army has done absolutely nothing to prevent an Islamist government from exercising sweeping governmental power for most of the past decade, despite the hostility that government has for the traditional military institutions.

I mean even today Gul, Erdogan and the Chief of the General Staff had a meeting over government-military tensions.  I can't think of many other countries where such a meeting would happen or would produce a statement that all sides agree that this needs to be solved 'within the constitution'.

The formal political role for the military was only largely abolished in 2004, though they have a great deal of informal influence.  The threatening noises I mean was the statement the military made in 2007 over the Gul Presidency: 'The Turkish Armed Forces maintain their sound determination to carry out their duties stemming from laws to protect the unchangeable characteristics of the Republic of Turkey. Their loyalty to this determination is absolute.' 

I'm reassured that this has attracted attention though.  The EU's said it's watching very closely and is calling for an 'exemplary' judicial process and civilian power, that's what I'd like to see.  But there are two further points that reassure me.  One is that the government is in a form of conflict with the military, not with their democratic political opponents.  When they arrest a CHP politician I'll be more worried.  Secondly I believe over 20 of those initially arrested have been released (pending further questioning, potentially) while I believe 20 have been charged.  That doesn't sound like a dangerous government to me.

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2010, 02:06:36 PM
I think it's only recently that the details have come out - which strikes me as plausible given that by their very nature conspiracies are generally secretive.  I mean even in the US what Nixon was doing for much of his time in office wouldn't have been believed and wasn't really known at the time

The Nixon white house actually did stuff though - like orchestrate a break-in and robbery of the opposing party's campaign.  Nothing like that seems to have happened here.  Even if one assumes the documents are entirely authentic and are what they purport to be, it looks like little more than some second tier level officers sketching out a theoretical contingency plan that wiser heads decided never to carry out.

It seems to me that there is a danger here of fighting the last war.  It used to be that what mattered was fighting communism and that is what led the West to tolerate the antics of military.  Now we are all good liberals and the story is the "Christian Democrats" of the AKP vs. the quasi-fascist militarists of the "deep state."

But the reality varies from the narrative: the military is in fact quiescent and it is the AKP which appears to exercise dominant control over the very powerful instruments of the state.  And the would-be "Muslim Democrats" of Turkey do not exactly bring the likes of Merkel and Balkenende to mind -- their recent policy has tended rather anti-American, and almost rabidly anti-Israel, while at the same time aggressively reaching out to befriend the likes of Syria and Iran.  Erdogan's truculent Darfur denial and his cheerleading for the butchers of Sudan fit the same disturbing trend of a religiously partisan and Islamized foreign policy.  At home, AKP legislators have advocated press censorship, prohibition and prayer in the schools.  The analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism. 

QuoteThe analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right; Not for torture, not for open religious profiling (they are trying to get a Greek monastery back working, after the Nationalists shut it down), pushing for ties with Armenia, and I don't think they've made any big anti-LGBT statements yet.

You are also still largely ignoring how disgusting the CHP, let alone the MHP, is.  Remember when Gul was "accused" of being Armenian by a CHP member?

Quote
, and almost rabidly anti-Israel

This should make them MORE at home, rather than less so, with European parties.  Turkey was only going to be an ally of Iran as long as it kept its Islam in the closet.  It isn't there anymore.  I think that is good for Turkey, but probably not so great for Israel.

Also worth pointing out that Turkey has not gone anti-Israel for nothing; the campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, as well as the continued growth of settlements, have changed a lot of people's minds (mine included) on this issue.

Quote
Erdogan's truculent Darfur denial and his cheerleading for the butchers of Sudan fit the same disturbing trend of a religiously partisan and Islamized foreign policy.

This I agree with, and is by far the most disheartening sign from Erdogan, and the general trend towards negative feelings about Christians and Jews is greatly upsetting.

Quote
AKP legislators have advocated press censorship,

In different cases, and less stringently, than the CHP. 

Quote from: Queequeg on February 26, 2010, 06:40:23 AM

QuoteThe analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

Spellus, I know you're well-read and eduicated, but sometimes the only possible response to your post is:

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Barrister on February 26, 2010, 11:55:26 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 26, 2010, 06:40:23 AM

QuoteThe analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

Spellus, I know you're well-read and eduicated, but sometimes the only possible response to your post is:

:rolleyes:

Beebs, I know that you are educated and all, but Spellus is not only more correct on this issue, but far less obnoxious.  Your words are absurd, because Spellus is making a credible argument (which you notably cannot even respond to rationally) and the rolleyes is completely uncalled-for and just makes you look like a dick who is so frustrated at his inability to respond logically that he resorts to insults.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually meant to be as contemptuous and insulting as you appear in this post, though.

And if anyone knows anything about being contemptuous and insulting, it's the old g.

Quote from: Queequeg on February 26, 2010, 06:40:23 AM
Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush rounding up opposition figures.

QuoteYou are also still largely ignoring how disgusting the CHP, let alone the MHP, is.  Remember when Gul was "accused" of being Armenian by a CHP member?

Is that bad?

QuoteAlso worth pointing out that Turkey has not gone anti-Israel for nothing; the campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, as well as the continued growth of settlements, have changed a lot of people's minds (mine included) on this issue.

Shame on you.

Quote from: Martinus on February 26, 2010, 01:10:53 PM
And if anyone knows anything about being contemptuous and insulting, it's the old g.

Actually, that's a good point.  Many people seem to feel that way after a few rounds with grumbler (although I myself never have).  It's like he knows just which buttons to push.

Quote from: grumbler on February 26, 2010, 12:47:27 PM

Quote from: Barrister on February 26, 2010, 11:55:26 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 26, 2010, 06:40:23 AM

QuoteThe analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

Spellus, I know you're well-read and eduicated, but sometimes the only possible response to your post is:

:rolleyes:

Beebs, I know that you are educated and all, but Spellus is not only more correct on this issue, but far less obnoxious.  Your words are absurd, because Spellus is making a credible argument (which you notably cannot even respond to rationally) and the rolleyes is completely uncalled-for and just makes you look like a dick who is so frustrated at his inability to respond logically that he resorts to insults.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually meant to be as contemptuous and insulting as you appear in this post, though.

No, I pretty much meant to be contemptuous and insulting.

I had no particular issue with the rest of Psellus' post, so I didn't include it in my reply.  On his comment about the "obvious" authoritarian tendencies of the American religious right that merited a :rolleyes:

Quote from: Neil on February 26, 2010, 01:11:46 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 26, 2010, 06:40:23 AM
Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush rounding up opposition figures.

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush being a member of the American Christian Far Right.

Quote from: grumbler on February 26, 2010, 12:47:27 PM

Quote from: Barrister on February 26, 2010, 11:55:26 AM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 26, 2010, 06:40:23 AM

QuoteThe analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

Spellus, I know you're well-read and eduicated, but sometimes the only possible response to your post is:

:rolleyes:

Beebs, I know that you are educated and all, but Spellus is not only more correct on this issue, but far less obnoxious.  Your words are absurd, because Spellus is making a credible argument (which you notably cannot even respond to rationally) and the rolleyes is completely uncalled-for and just makes you look like a dick who is so frustrated at his inability to respond logically that he resorts to insults.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually meant to be as contemptuous and insulting as you appear in this post, though.

Zanza did it better :p

Quote from: Martinus on February 26, 2010, 01:10:53 PM
And if anyone knows anything about being contemptuous and insulting, it's the old g.

Say what?

Quote from: Martinus on February 26, 2010, 02:43:36 AM
grumbler is not as much a school bully as the weird kid who smells, always wears sweat pants covered in dog hair, eats his own boogers and screams words like "penis" and "vagina" repeatedly.

:lmfao:

Quote from: Barrister on February 26, 2010, 02:09:24 PM
No, I pretty much meant to be contemptuous and insulting.

Sorry, i gave you too much credit, then.  Contempt and insults are a childish way of avoiding the fact that you have no counter-argument, though.

QuoteI had no particular issue with the rest of Psellus' post, so I didn't include it in my reply.  On his comment about the "obvious" authoritarian tendencies of the American religious right that merited a :rolleyes:

Anyone with any knowledge of the American religious far right has seen their obvious tendencies to be authoritarian - it is one of their most dinstinguishing features.  It is clear that you have no counter-argument to this observation, but you cannot abide seeing the American religious far-right insulted (maybe you identify with them?) so you satisfy yourself with the petulant but unpersuasive :rolleyes:

That's okay.  You don't lose much cred with me by this stance - only all that you had.

Quote from: HVC on February 26, 2010, 02:13:46 PM
Zanza did it better :p

:huh:  Zanza didn't respond to BB.

Quote from: grumbler on February 26, 2010, 02:21:12 PM
Anyone with any knowledge of the American religious far right has seen their obvious tendencies to be authoritarian - it is one of their most dinstinguishing features.  It is clear that you have no counter-argument to this observation, but you cannot abide seeing the American religious far-right insulted (maybe you identify with them?) so you satisfy yourself with the petulant but unpersuasive :rolleyes:

So your response to my questioning the ridiculous claim that the religious right is "obviously authoritarian" is to say "no, it really is obvious"?

:rolleyes:

QuoteThat's okay.  You don't lose much cred with me by this stance - only all that you had.

:mellow:

Quote from: Barrister on February 26, 2010, 02:24:34 PM
So your response to my questioning the ridiculous claim that the religious right is "obviously authoritarian" is to say "no, it really is obvious"?

:rolleyes: No, my response to those who claim that the American religious far Right is not authoirtarian is to call them ignorant (willfully or not).  Those who drop the "far" from "far right" to try to weasel out of the fact that we are talking about the "far right" are dishonest as well as ignorant.

The American Religious Far Right wants government to try abortion doctors as murderers, it wants to make homosexual sex illegal (mostly along with all non-traditional hetero sex), it wants to ban books from libraries and schools, it wants the government to mandate the teaching of Christianity and Creationism in schools...  I could go on, but won't bother. 

Quote from: grumbler on February 26, 2010, 02:35:39 PM

Quote from: Barrister on February 26, 2010, 02:24:34 PM
So your response to my questioning the ridiculous claim that the religious right is "obviously authoritarian" is to say "no, it really is obvious"?

:rolleyes: No, my response to those who claim that the American religious far Right is not authoirtarian is to call them ignorant (willfully or not).  Those who drop the "far" from "far right" to try to weasel out of the fact that we are talking about the "far right" are dishonest as well as ignorant.

The American Religious Far Right wants government to try abortion doctors as murderers, it wants to make homosexual sex illegal (mostly along with all non-traditional hetero sex), it wants to ban books from libraries and schools, it wants the government to mandate the teaching of Christianity and Creationism in schools...  I could go on, but won't bother.

Sorry G, I'm not going to play this game with you any longer.

Better luck trolling someone else though.

Quote from: Barrister on February 26, 2010, 02:59:37 PM
Sorry G, I'm not going to play this game with you any longer.

Better luck trolling someone else though.

Good luck trying to convince anyone you actually had an argument, as opposed to an insult, in this discussion.  If you actually had an argument you would, of course, have made it.

I don't blame you for withdrawing - if insults and contempt prove inadequate, and you have nothing else, your choices are between retreat and rout.

Quote from: Barrister on February 26, 2010, 02:24:34 PM
So your response to my questioning the ridiculous claim that the religious right is "obviously authoritarian" is to say "no, it really is obvious"?

Grumbler's right on this one; the religious right is obviously authoritarian.

QuoteThough 91.8% say they believe in God, a higher power or a cosmic force, they had four distinct views of God's personality and engagement in human affairs. These Four Gods — dubbed by researchers Authoritarian, Benevolent, Critical or Distant — tell more about people's social, moral and political views and personal piety than the familiar categories of Protestant/Catholic/Jew or even red state/blue state...."[Believers in the Authoritarian God] want an active, Christian-values-based government with federal funding for faith-based social services and prayer in the schools."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-09-11-religion-survey_x.htm

Quote from: ulmont on February 26, 2010, 03:50:40 PM
Grumbler's right on this one; the religious right is obviously authoritarian.

QuoteThough 91.8% say they believe in God, a higher power or a cosmic force, they had four distinct views of God's personality and engagement in human affairs. These Four Gods — dubbed by researchers Authoritarian, Benevolent, Critical or Distant — tell more about people's social, moral and political views and personal piety than the familiar categories of Protestant/Catholic/Jew or even red state/blue state...."[Believers in the Authoritarian God] want an active, Christian-values-based government with federal funding for faith-based social services and prayer in the schools."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-09-11-religion-survey_x.htm

And that is just the religious Right; the Religious Far Right goes even further:

QuoteSome say we want to replace the Constitution. That is utter nonsense. It is true that the Constitution-like everything else-must be subordinate to God's word, but we have never advocated replacing the Constitution. We do not believe God's law limits freedoms. In fact, we believe a denial of God's law limits freedoms: it sets up a situation in which there is no impediment to tyranny. For this reason, to the extent that America has departed from the law of God, she has suffered increased tyranny.

Of course, if by "freedom" the critics mean "freedom" to murder, rape, steal, and blaspheme, then, no, we do not believe in that form of "freedom."

http://forerunner.com/puritan/PS.Recon_Manifesto.html

Quote from: grumbler on February 26, 2010, 02:12:13 PM

Quote from: Neil on February 26, 2010, 01:11:46 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 26, 2010, 06:40:23 AM
Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush rounding up opposition figures.

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush being a member of the American Christian Far Right.

Spellus remembers differently, boy.

Quote from: grumbler on February 26, 2010, 04:20:02 PM
And that is just the religious Right; the Religious Far Right goes even further:

Right, right.  I went with the general survey as the least hyperbolic and most general piece of evidence I could find to make my point.

Quote from: Neil on February 26, 2010, 05:48:41 PM

Quote from: grumbler on February 26, 2010, 02:12:13 PM

Quote from: Neil on February 26, 2010, 01:11:46 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on February 26, 2010, 06:40:23 AM
Actually, this is probably better, but I think it is obvious that the AKP has far less authoritarian instincts than the American Christian Far-Right;

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush rounding up opposition figures.

That's funny.  I don't recall George W. Bush being a member of the American Christian Far Right.

Spellus remembers differently, boy.

George W Bush read what Spellus checked out in the Library.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 25, 2010, 05:48:29 PM
The Nixon white house actually did stuff though - like orchestrate a break-in and robbery of the opposing party's campaign.  Nothing like that seems to have happened here.  Even if one assumes the documents are entirely authentic and are what they purport to be, it looks like little more than some second tier level officers sketching out a theoretical contingency plan that wiser heads decided never to carry out.

So  if there's truth to it and it was only second tier senior military officers sketching out a plan to overthrow a government through the use of a tension strategy it's not worth prosecuting?  I'd note that right now the AKP are suggesting that they want judicial reform - based on EU recommendations.  The military are unhappy because they want total amnesty from civilian trials and in a document released by the chiefs of staff about their concerns with this prosecution was that military figures were being tried by civilians and that they were being questioned by civilians, I believe a third was that they had been arrested by the police (not the military police) and were being held in civilian prisons.  That doesn't sound like a quiescent military, at best it sounds like a Pinochet style hangover that needs to be put firmly under civilian control.

QuoteBut the reality varies from the narrative: the military is in fact quiescent and it is the AKP which appears to exercise dominant control over the very powerful instruments of the state.  And the would-be "Muslim Democrats" of Turkey do not exactly bring the likes of Merkel and Balkenende to mind -- their recent policy has tended rather anti-American, and almost rabidly anti-Israel, while at the same time aggressively reaching out to befriend the likes of Syria and Iran.   

Okay.  Well I'd point out that the last decade has been one of global foreign policy tending anti-American.  Turkey's not the only ally who's been increasingly unhappy with the US government.  I think one of their particular reasons - one that they're angry about right now - is ridiculous.  The Armenian genocide happened and was a genocide.  Though you use the phrase Islamised foreign policy and I think that's true, within reason.  What we've really seen is a foreign policy that focuses far more on the region as a whole than under previous governments and  so I am aware that the Turks and Armenians are talking that relations are better than they've been for a long-time and so on, so I'm not convinced that Congress's resolution is terribly useful.  But on the facts the Turks are monstrously wrong (though I'd say far more because of the Kemalist/nationalist wing of politics than anything else) and the Turkish press is probably the only one in the Middle East where if you search for the word 'lobby' they're talking about Armenians.

On the Israel issue I think it's complicated to be honest.  I agree with Quee I think the past few years have been difficult for friends of Israel all over the world and have made giving full-throated support of Israel more difficult.  I think it's inevitable that that would have an effect in a country that Muslim and with a party that genuinely believes in Islamic solidarity (as opposed to the sham solidarity of the Arab kleptocracies).  And this is something the Turks have a history on.  They were one of the first nations to recognise the PLO and give them an Embassy, for example. 

Now I think Erdogan's display at Davos was wrong because it was rude and reflects a tendency I think he sometimes has to play to the Arab crowds.  However I think the only difference between an AKP government and, say, a CHP one has been one of strength of rhetoric.  I think this was inevitable after the cold war.  Israeli-Turkish relations, after the Cold War peaked just after Oslo and have generally had some tie to the Israel-Palestine issue - it's not just dictatorships manipulating the press that angers people in the region.  However I think the core has been and remains relatively strong.  Considering Turkey's rabidly anti-Israel they still have very strong military and intelligence ties with Israel, there've been two senior ministerial visits to Ankara this year and Gul and Peres apparently had a very productive meeting on the sidelines of the Copenhagen conference.  I believe the Israelis are expecting a senior visit from Ankara.  I think Turkey's rabidly anti-Israel in the way that, say, France is rabidly anti-American.

On the region I'd add that Turkey are also becoming aggressively friendly with Iraq (if there's one thing that can unite the region it's shitting on Kurds) and are dealing with Armenia.  So what they're actually doing is starting to talk productively to everyone with whom they share a border.

I don't know about the Darfur thing so I can't comment.  Denying genocide's an unpleasant Turkish foreign policy trait.

For what it's worth I think Erdogan has an unpleasant populist vaguely authoritarian and quite abrasive streak and I do think he's gone too far on Israel.  I far prefer Gul.

QuoteAt home, AKP legislators have advocated press censorship, prohibition and prayer in the schools. 

Legislator is a baggy word.  I could point to Pete King and say that represents

QuoteThe analogue seems to me less a European-style Christian Democratic party, and more like a an Islamic-Turkic version of American-style political evangelism.

I don't care about the religion, I care about whether they're democratic because the policies can be changed.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/25/whats_really_behind_turkeys_coup_arrests (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/25/whats_really_behind_turkeys_coup_arrests)

QuoteThe arrests followed a Feb. 19 incident in which an audio recording of Turkey's chief of staff was leaked to Vakit, a small jihadi Islamist newspaper that has celebrated the killing of U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan. In Turkey, it is illegal to wiretap individuals without a court order, and it is also illegal to publish such wiretaps. However, no one has been prosecuted for this wiretap against the chief of staff -- a sign that the balance of power in Turkey has shifted decisively

QuoteTo some, it might appear that the newfound freedom to criticize the military proves that Turkey is becoming a more liberal democracy. But the truth is that Turkey has replaced one "untouchable" organization for another, more dangerous, one. Criticizing the Gülen movement, which controls the national police and its powerful domestic intelligence branch, and which exerts increasing influence in the judiciary, has become as taboo as assailing the military once was. Today, it is those who criticize the Gülen movement who get burned

QuoteOf course, coup allegations are serious matters that warrant immediate action. However, these allegations are part of the Ergenekon case -- a convoluted investigation that so far has produced nothing in the last three years but a record-setting 5,800-page indictment, hundreds of early-morning house raids, and the detention of many prominent Turks, including university presidents and prominent educators such as Kemal Guruz and Mehmet Haberal. The only quality that ties together all of those arrested is their opposition to the AKP government and the Gülen movement. Zekeriya Oz, the chief prosecutor leading the Ergenekon case, and Ramazan Akyurek, the head of the police's domestic intelligence branch, as well as other powerful people in the police, are thought by some to be Gülen sympathizers.

Although some of the people interrogated and arrested might have been involved in criminal wrongdoing, most appear to be innocent. Take, for instance, Turkan Saylan, a 73-year-old grandmother who was undergoing chemotherapy. Saylan ran an NGO providing liberal arts education scholarships to poor girls in eastern Turkey, an area where Gülen's network runs many competing organizations. She was interrogated by the Turkish police for allegedly plotting a coup from her death bed, and passed away only four weeks later.

QuoteIllegal wiretaps and arbitrary arrests serve to intimidate the public, not prosecute criminals. Because of Ergenekon, Turks who oppose the AKP and the Gülen movement fear to speak their minds freely. If you have doubts, call a friend in Turkey and ask for an opinion of the case. Your friend will respond with details of the weather.

The military, which opposes the AKP and the Gülenists because it sees itself as the virtual guardian of Turkey's secular polity à la Ataturk's vision, serving as a bulwark against religion's domination over politics and government, has become the primary target of this round of politically motivated arrests. Illegally obtained documents, including confidential and sometimes embarrassing medical records of four-star generals, were published openly in Gülenist media. Although the chief of staff said the documents were doctored, they were recently used as evidence, with the support of anonymous witnesses, to arrest serving generals and admirals

QuoteWith the Gülen movement in control of large portions of the government apparatus and running a political witch hunt against its opponents through the Ergenekon case, Turkey is taking a dangerously authoritarian turn. A personal friend and politician from the former Soviet Union once said, "A police state emerges not when the police listen to all the citizens, but when all the citizens fear that they are being listened to." Welcome to the new Turkey: If you listen carefully, you can hear the political ground shifting below your feet.

 So, thanks for contributing then, QQ.

Paris, Tennessee is the grandest paris of them all. It has an annual catfish festival!

Quote from: Tamas on March 03, 2010, 03:45:25 AM
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/25/whats_really_behind_turkeys_coup_arrests (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/25/whats_really_behind_turkeys_coup_arrests)

I started reading that article and stopped when I got to the 'ultraconservative Gulen movement'.  That is simply absurd.  They believe in pacifism, have no problem with women (within the movement) not wearing the headscarf (though they generally encourage it and are conservative in their opinions on gender roles, certainly in theory, but they don't believe in compulsion), they encourage Muslims to get the full out of living in modern societies; the leader has debated the need for inter-faith dialogue in Israel with the Chief Rabbi of the Israel Sephardi community (not to mention leaders of the Catholic Church including JPII and Greek Orthodox leaders) and has condemned Saudi Arabia and Iran for basing their societies on anti-democratic practices and Sharia.  If only the face of ultra-conservative Islamism were so benign all over the world.

QuoteTurkey's military in turmoil as top brass quit

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkey faced turmoil within its military on Saturday after the country's four most senior commanders quit in protest over the detention of 250 officers on charges of conspiring against Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's government.

Chief of General Staff General Isik Kosaner stepped down on Friday evening along with the army, navy and air force commanders, plunging NATO's second largest armed forces into uncertainty just days before a key promotions board convenes.

In a farewell message to "brothers in arms," Kosaner said it was impossible for him to continue in his role as he was unable to defend the rights of men who had been detained as a consequence of a flawed judicial process.

Relations between the secularist military and Erdogan's socially conservative Justice and Development Party (AK) have been fraught since it first won power in 2002, due to mistrust of the AK's Islamist roots.

In years gone by, Turkey's generals were more likely to mount a coup than quit, but Erdogan has ended the military's past dominance through a series of reforms aimed at advancing Turkey's chances of joining the European Union.

The subordination of the generals was starkly demonstrated last year when police began detaining scores of officers over "Operation Sledgehammer," an alleged plot against Erdogan's government discussed at a military seminar in 2003.

The officers say Sledgehammer was merely a war game exercise and the evidence against them has been fabricated.

Some 250 military personnel are currently in jail, including 173 serving and 77 retired personnel. Most of them are held on charges related to Sledgehammer.

According to media reports, a prosecutor investigating another alleged military plot on Friday sought the arrest of 22 people including the commander of the Aegean army.

The detentions have sapped morale and spread mistrust and suspicion among the officer corps, and many had been looking for Kosaner to take a stand since his appointment last August.

More than 40 serving generals, almost a tenth of Turkey's commanders, are under arrest, accused of a various plots to bring down the AK party.

"It is clear as day that this extraordinary development has opened the door to a serious state crisis," said Devlet Bahceli, head of the opposition Nationalist Movement Party.

Analysts see little political threat to Erdogan's supremacy. His AK won a third consecutive term, taking 50 percent of the vote in a parliamentary election in June.

The departures of Kosaner and the others could give Erdogan a chance to fill the top brass with officers more friendly to his party, raising the possibility of more officers retiring early, or quitting.

Though the sudden manner of their going is embarrassing, it could gift Erdogan a decisive victory over a military that sees itself as guardian of the secularist state envisioned by the soldier statesman and founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

Erdogan marked out Kosaner's successor on Friday, as his office put out a statement naming paramilitary Gendarmerie commander General Necdet Ozel as new head of land forces, and acting deputy chief of general staff, effectively making him next in line when Kosaner hands over the baton.

The statement said the four commanders had retired and made no mention of the reasons why. It said a meeting of the Supreme Military Council, which meets twice-yearly to make key appointments, would go ahead as planned on Monday, showing Erdogan in a hurry to restore the chain of command and present an image of business as usual.

Though well used to Turkey's turbulent politics, investors can easily take fright given the fragile state of world markets.

Just last week the central bank was forced to take steps to halt a sharp fall in the lira currency due to concern over the vulnerability of the Turkish economy to external shocks.

I guess those who claimed Turkey is unfit to join the EU can now say "told you so".

Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2010, 03:49:05 PM
The only good thing Turks ever did was killing off Armenians. However they did not do a sufficiently good work of it, because they did not slaughter Queequeg's ancestors.

Is that a threat?  :mad:

Quote from: Slargos on July 30, 2011, 06:44:38 AM

Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2010, 03:49:05 PM
The only good thing Turks ever did was killing off Armenians. However they did not do a sufficiently good work of it, because they did not slaughter Queequeg's ancestors.

Is that a threat?  :mad:

Statute of limitations. The post was made over a year ago.

Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2011, 06:45:36 AM

Quote from: Slargos on July 30, 2011, 06:44:38 AM

Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2010, 03:49:05 PM
The only good thing Turks ever did was killing off Armenians. However they did not do a sufficiently good work of it, because they did not slaughter Queequeg's ancestors.

Is that a threat?  :mad:

Statute of limitations. The post was made over a year ago.

:mad:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbabynar.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F12%2Fim-watching-you-focker.jpg&hash=003c502259d94a3d766d0ad616c0ab289f2cf2f2)

Quote from: Slargos on July 30, 2011, 06:50:01 AM

Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2011, 06:45:36 AM

Quote from: Slargos on July 30, 2011, 06:44:38 AM

Quote from: Martinus on February 23, 2010, 03:49:05 PM
The only good thing Turks ever did was killing off Armenians. However they did not do a sufficiently good work of it, because they did not slaughter Queequeg's ancestors.

Is that a threat?  :mad:

Statute of limitations. The post was made over a year ago.

:mad:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbabynar.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F12%2Fim-watching-you-focker.jpg&hash=003c502259d94a3d766d0ad616c0ab289f2cf2f2)

You are going to get an eyeful of toe sucking. I'll pray for you.

Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2011, 06:32:08 AM
I guess those who claimed Turkey is unfit to join the EU can now say "told you so".

told you so

Quote from: Tamas on July 31, 2011, 08:48:36 AM

Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2011, 06:32:08 AM
I guess those who claimed Turkey is unfit to join the EU can now say "told you so".

told you so

Aren't Hungarians Turks?

Quote from: Razgovory on July 31, 2011, 09:59:01 AM

Quote from: Tamas on July 31, 2011, 08:48:36 AM

Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2011, 06:32:08 AM
I guess those who claimed Turkey is unfit to join the EU can now say "told you so".

told you so

Aren't Hungarians Turks?

nope

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 03:41:48 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on July 31, 2011, 09:59:01 AM

Quote from: Tamas on July 31, 2011, 08:48:36 AM

Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2011, 06:32:08 AM
I guess those who claimed Turkey is unfit to join the EU can now say "told you so".

told you so

Aren't Hungarians Turks?

nope

:(

Quote from: The Brain on August 01, 2011, 03:52:47 AM

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 03:41:48 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on July 31, 2011, 09:59:01 AM

Quote from: Tamas on July 31, 2011, 08:48:36 AM

Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2011, 06:32:08 AM
I guess those who claimed Turkey is unfit to join the EU can now say "told you so".

told you so

Aren't Hungarians Turks?

nope

:(

what the central europeans fail to realize (because they are busy dreaming up glorious ancestries) is that due to all the cross-fucking going on for more than a millenia, genetically Hungary and it's neighborhood must be roughly the same mix of Magyar, slav, and German.

Otherwise, we are long lost relatives to your former underlings the finns. So here goes a fuck you, for keeping them opressed!

But not Turk?  I mean, you guys were part of Turkey for a while.

Quote from: Razgovory on August 01, 2011, 05:12:16 AM
But not Turk?  I mean, you guys were part of Turkey for a while.

ok, add some Turk to the mix if you are so inclined :P

There wasn't as much interbreeding as you might think.  People didn't travel all that much.

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 08:47:29 AM
There wasn't as much interbreeding as you might think.  People didn't travel all that much.

I live in the middle of the country. Well, what was middle of the country when it was it's proper size, and I have known people with magyar, german, serbian, bosnian, and who knows what last names.
I know about one german great-grandfather which puts me in the minority among my peers.

There WAS that many interbreeding, mostly because -thanks to Turks- a lot of mainland Hungary, ie. the frontier of the austro-turk wars, became unpopulated.. These holes were filled by German settlers mostly, but also by slavs.

'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Like fuck it is.

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Like fuck it is.

Hungary is paying for its sins against the Austrian Empire.  If they had partitioned the whole country between Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia, it would still have been just.

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:25:01 AM

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Like fuck it is.

Hungary is paying for its sins against the Austrian Empire.  If they had partitioned the whole country between Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia, it would still have been just.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa238%2Fjessephatz%2Fth_Obvious-troll-is-obvious.jpg&hash=26d5b81c375244e0479094e9b16e89932475125b)

OK, Balkantard.

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:51:01 AM
OK, Balkantard.

:lol: so I wanted to see if there is a "this is hungary!" version of the "this is sparta!" meme. There isn't, but, as a result I stumbled upon the page of some teenage girl from Eastern Hungary, who appears to be the fan of two things: neo nazi metal bands, and.... anime.

What a wonderful world  :lol:

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Like fuck it is.

TRIANON! TRIANON! TRIANON!

:frog:

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Like fuck it is.

Hungary's government is so inept and corrupt it would indeed be proper for them to control a much smaller territory...like say maybe a small village in Transdanubia.

Quote from: Valmy on August 01, 2011, 12:30:35 PM

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Like fuck it is.

Hungary's government is so inept and corrupt it would indeed be proper for them to control a much smaller territory...like say maybe a small village in Transdanubia.

Hungary is the people who consider themselves Magyar, not our government. :)

Quote from: Zoupa on August 01, 2011, 12:16:22 PM

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Like fuck it is.

TRIANON! TRIANON! TRIANON!

:frog:

Here, have a bite:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fshit365.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FFrench-frog.jpg&hash=010cf51b0b2a0eea27cbd090219b05215f2e685e)

Full frontal nudity SFW?

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 12:51:27 PM

Quote from: Valmy on August 01, 2011, 12:30:35 PM

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Like fuck it is.

Hungary's government is so inept and corrupt it would indeed be proper for them to control a much smaller territory...like say maybe a small village in Transdanubia.

Hungary is the people who consider themselves Magyar, not our government. :)

The governments have been chosen by the people, and they have been invariably bad.

Quote from: Tamas on August 01, 2011, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: Neil on August 01, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
'Proper size'?  Hungary is its proper size right now.

Like fuck it is.

I think 50 thousand T-34s disagreed.