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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: jimmy olsen on February 02, 2010, 11:24:38 PM

Title: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 02, 2010, 11:24:38 PM
If this poll is accurate... :bleeding:

However it was administared by Daily Kos, so I suspect their questions were somewhat loaded.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/32384.html
QuotePoll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'

By ANDY BARR | 2/2/10 12:58 PM EST


A new poll of self-identified Republicans released Tuesday shows a large slice of the GOP believes President Barack Obama is a "socialist" who was not born in this country, should be impeached, wants the terrorists to win and only won the 2008 election because ACORN "stole" it for him.


The survey of 2003 self-identified Republicans, who typically trend much more conservative than voters who "lean" Republican, was conducted by Research 2000 for the liberal blog Daily Kos.


According to the poll, 63 percent of Republicans believe Obama is a socialist; 39 percent think Obama should be impeached; 24 percent said Obama wants "the terrorists to win"; and 31 percent agreed with the statement that Obama is "a racist who hates white people."

Those numbers are just a portion of the results from the poll that paints the GOP as much more socially conservative — and in some cases conspiratorial — than most analysts would be willing to grant.


According to the survey, 36 percent of respondents do not believe the president was born in this country, and 21 percent think the liberal advocacy group ACORN stole the election for Obama.

Meanwhile, nearly a quarter of the Republicans polled, 23 percent, want their state to secede from the union.

Those polled also showed strong opposition to the expansion of gay rights.


Fifty-five percent said gays should not be allowed to serve openly in the military, while 77 percent opposed gay couples getting married and 68 percent believe gay couples should not receive "any state or federal benefits." In addition, 73 percent said openly gay men and women should not be allowed to teach in public schools.

On other social issues the findings were similar.


Fifty-one percent of those polled believe sex education should not be taught in schools; 77 percent want creationism taught in schools; 31 percent want contraception outlawed; and 34 percent believe birth control is "abortion."


Those polled showed excitement for this fall's midterm election, as 83 percent said they plan to vote.

Among those surveyed, former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin is the favorite candidate for the 2012 presidential election.


Sixteen percent said they'd vote for Palin, tops in the field, though 42 percent said they are undecided. Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney placed second with 11 percent, followed by former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, and South Dakota Sen. John Thune.


Asked whether they thought Palin is more qualified than Obama to serve as president, 53 percent said yes.


Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: ulmont on February 02, 2010, 11:29:04 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 02, 2010, 11:24:38 PM
However it was administared by Daily Kos, so I suspect their questions were somewhat loaded.

It was administered by Research 2000, commissioned by Daily Kos.  They have the questions on their site, if you RTFA.
http://www.dailykos.com/statepoll/2010/1/31/US/437
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 12:09:38 AM
If somebody started asking me questions like that, I wouldn't take them seriously either. I mean hell. "Do you think Obama is a racist who hates whites?" I'd be like "Who wrote these shitty questions?" and just say the most absurd things I could think of. Oh yeah, Obama was a Soviet espionage experiment designed to take over the US from the inside and eventually become President so he could surrender to the USSR. Good thing the KGB is gone now, or we'd all be speaking Russian. lol
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Razgovory on February 03, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 12:09:38 AM
If somebody started asking me questions like that, I wouldn't take them seriously either. I mean hell. "Do you think Obama is a racist who hates whites?" I'd be like "Who wrote these shitty questions?" and just say the most absurd things I could think of. Oh yeah, Obama was a Soviet espionage experiment designed to take over the US from the inside and eventually become President so he could surrender to the USSR. Good thing the KGB is gone now, or we'd all be speaking Russian. lol

Berkut was unsure about the racist angle.  Alot of people have been pushing it.  This is the second poll that shows a significant number of Republicans think that Acorn stole the election.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Strix on February 03, 2010, 01:19:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
Berkut was unsure about the racist angle.  Alot of people have been pushing it.  This is the second poll that shows a significant number of Republicans think that Acorn stole the election.

Oddly enough I have never met a Republican who thought Acorn had stolen the election.  :unsure:
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Tonitrus on February 03, 2010, 01:50:05 AM
I'll patiently await the "Poll: Majority of Democrats believe Republicans are Nazis", thread.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Fireblade on February 03, 2010, 02:14:55 AM
Quote from: Strix on February 03, 2010, 01:19:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
Berkut was unsure about the racist angle.  Alot of people have been pushing it.  This is the second poll that shows a significant number of Republicans think that Acorn stole the election.

Oddly enough I have never met a Republican who thought Acorn had stolen the election.  :unsure:

Bullshit.

Republicans are so goddamned stupid, it's almost absurd.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 02:27:46 AM
QuoteIn addition, 73 percent said openly gay men and women should not be allowed to teach in public schools.

Wow. Just wow.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Fireblade on February 03, 2010, 02:35:52 AM
QuoteShould public school students be taught that the book of Genesis in the Bible explains how God created the world?

Yes 77
No 15
Not Sure 8

Why are Republicans so fucking stupid?

And no Timmy, the questions weren't "loaded", you and the rest of your traitorous party are retarded.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/2/2/832988/-The-2010-Comprehensive-Daily-Kos-Research-2000-Poll-of-Self-Identified-Republicans
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Caliga on February 03, 2010, 06:08:44 AM
 :rolleyes:

Obama is an Obamaist.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Fate on February 03, 2010, 06:10:43 AM
Self-identifying Republicans are a pretty scary bunch.

The more reasonable GOPtards like grumbler and berkut claim to be independent these days.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Neil on February 03, 2010, 07:01:15 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 02:27:46 AM
QuoteIn addition, 73 percent said openly gay men and women should not be allowed to teach in public schools.

Wow. Just wow.
Well, it's not unreasonable not to want sexual predators in the schools, don't you think?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Grey Fox on February 03, 2010, 07:10:00 AM
I'm white. I'm more qualified then Palin (I'm a man). Can I be Republican Candidate?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Viking on February 03, 2010, 07:21:19 AM
Did anybody else see the Obama Q&A with the House Republicans? And is it time for a "Presidents Question Time" on the Westminster model in Congress.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2010, 07:56:57 AM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 06:10:43 AM
Self-identifying Republicans are a pretty scary bunch.

The more reasonable GOPtards like grumbler and berkut claim to be independent these days.
I wonder how they narrowed down the pool to self-identifying Republicans.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Viking on February 03, 2010, 08:02:33 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2010, 07:56:57 AM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 06:10:43 AM
Self-identifying Republicans are a pretty scary bunch.

The more reasonable GOPtards like grumbler and berkut claim to be independent these days.
I wonder how they narrowed down the pool to self-identifying Republicans.

Probably...

1. Are you a

A) Democrat
B) Independent
C) Republican
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 03, 2010, 08:48:47 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2010, 07:56:57 AM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 06:10:43 AM
Self-identifying Republicans are a pretty scary bunch.

The more reasonable GOPtards like grumbler and berkut claim to be independent these days.
I wonder how they narrowed down the pool to self-identifying Republicans.

Maybe they only accepted Republicans able to show their membership card upon request.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Viking on February 03, 2010, 08:55:03 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 03, 2010, 08:48:47 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2010, 07:56:57 AM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 06:10:43 AM
Self-identifying Republicans are a pretty scary bunch.

The more reasonable GOPtards like grumbler and berkut claim to be independent these days.
I wonder how they narrowed down the pool to self-identifying Republicans.

Maybe they only accepted Republicans able to show their membership card upon request.

Maybe they used the VRWC secret handshake?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 03, 2010, 08:57:01 AM
Quote from: Viking on February 03, 2010, 08:55:03 AM
Maybe they used the VRWC secret handshake?

It's more of a fist bump these days.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Fireblade on February 03, 2010, 09:05:06 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 03, 2010, 08:57:01 AM
Quote from: Viking on February 03, 2010, 08:55:03 AM
Maybe they used the VRWC secret handshake?

It's more of a fist bump these days.  :rolleyes:

A TERRORIST fist bump?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DisturbedPervert on February 03, 2010, 09:09:58 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 03, 2010, 01:50:05 AM
I'll patiently await the "Poll: Majority of Democrats believe Republicans are Nazis", thread.

Majority of Democrats polled believe Dick Cheney personally piloted both airplanes in to the World Trade Center.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Ed Anger on February 03, 2010, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: Fireblade on February 03, 2010, 09:05:06 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 03, 2010, 08:57:01 AM
Quote from: Viking on February 03, 2010, 08:55:03 AM
Maybe they used the VRWC secret handshake?

It's more of a fist bump these days.  :rolleyes:

A TERRORIST fist bump?

I miss ED Hill's legs on Fox and Friends in the morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AetBNbX3j7Q&feature=related (NSFW)
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 11:10:14 AM
QuoteMeanwhile, nearly a quarter of the Republicans polled, 23 percent, want their state to secede from the union.

:lol: Ok I never want to hear a Republican attack the left as being anti-American again.  At least the wacky leftists just threaten to leave the country, the wacky right wants to destroy it.  Of course surely they were just...what...drunk when they answered those questions?

But I mean seriously these guys make Hans appear to be a clear thinking moderate by comparison...actually judging by the level of political discourse in this country these days he pretty much is.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 11:18:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 11:10:14 AM
Of course surely they were just...what...drunk when they answered those questions?

Possibly.  But 20% is about  the baseline "batshit crazy" amount.  You can find 20% of the population willing to support ghosts and thinking GWB was too liberal.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Ed Anger on February 03, 2010, 11:21:09 AM
Quotethinking GWB was too liberal.

He was too soft.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Savonarola on February 03, 2010, 11:30:38 AM
Quote from: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 11:18:28 AM

Possibly.  But 20% is about  the baseline "batshit crazy" amount.  You can find 20% of the population willing to support ghosts

They should get jobs like everybody else.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 11:37:21 AM
Most people don't know what a socialist is. Any party that is slightly left of centre right is labelled a socialsit.

Face it, Americans are pretty ignorant and easily gullable
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Lettow77 on February 03, 2010, 11:44:35 AM
Calling Obama a socialist doesnt seem too terrinly off the mark. Certaintly he is more interested in equity than liberty.

But, more importantly, the secession values are higher than they have been in a very long time. Kittens.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 11:46:32 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on February 03, 2010, 11:44:35 AM
Calling Obama a socialist doesnt seem too terrinly off the mark. Certaintly he is more interested in equity than liberty.

Eh both Republicans and Democrats love executive power and control once they obtain the office.  When they are out of power they champion individual rights and local government.

QuoteBut, more importantly, the secession values are higher than they have been in a very long time. Kittens.

:lol: I knew you would get a kick out of that.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 11:48:39 AM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 11:37:21 AM
Most people don't know what a socialist is. Any party that is slightly left of centre right is labelled a socialsit.

Face it, Americans are pretty ignorant and easily gullable

Actually, I think the term "socialist" has such a negative connotation here that folks on the left shy away from using it even when it is accurate.  We have quite a few de facto socialists in the US, but few will self-identify as such.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DisturbedPervert on February 03, 2010, 11:54:46 AM
Quote from: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 11:18:28 AMYou can find 20% of the population willing to support ghosts and thinking GWB was too liberal.

GWB was too liberal and 90% of Americans believe in some form of ghost
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 11:58:46 AM
Calling Obama a socialist is, for plenty of people on the right, just a pejorative. It is like listening to all the Lanuishites calling Bush a fascist. It doesn't really mean anything other than "I don't like him so I am going to call him something nasty".

Now, as to whether it is fair to call Obama an *actual* Socialist, I imagine that depends on how you define the term. If you look at American politics as a spectrum, is he more or less towards the end where "Socialists" sit? I dunno - I used to think so, but I've heard plenty of pretty hard core lefties who are pretty pissed off he isn't even remotely as far left as they though he was.

The poll did just what it was designed to do though - create grist for the left to be all horrified at how clearly stupid those who do not agree with them must be. Funny that they don't see the irony in that though.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:04:50 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 11:58:46 AM
create grist for the left to be all horrified at how clearly stupid those who do not agree with them must be.

I do have a hard time imagining how people who think removing sex education while discouraging contraception, safe sex, and abortion is a great social policy are not rather stupid.  I am just giving them the benefit of the doubt, because otherwise I would have to conclude they are malevolent.

Of course, thankfully, not all people on the right are in favor of insane social policies.  Just enough of them to make me nervous.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 12:08:25 PM
We have had the discussion about socialists in the US.  In the US a hard core leftie would be a moderate NDP member in Canada.  A hard core NDP member in Canada would be shot on sight in the US.

There are no socialists in the US.  There are few left in Canada.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 12:09:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:04:50 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 11:58:46 AM
create grist for the left to be all horrified at how clearly stupid those who do not agree with them must be.

I do have a hard time imagining how people who think removing sex education while discouraging contraception, safe sex, and abortion is a great social policy are not rather stupid.  I am just giving them the benefit of the doubt, because otherwise I would have to conclude they are malevolent.

Of course, thankfully, not all people on the right are in favor of insane social policies.  Just enough of them to make me nervous.

Congratulations, you have figured out that there are ignorant people on the right who do not think very rationally. Kudos.

Kind of sad it takes some silly poll like this to illuminate this truism for you though.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 11:58:46 AM
I dunno - I used to think so, but I've heard plenty of pretty hard core lefties who are pretty pissed off he isn't even remotely as far left as they though he was.

Besides the whole health care thing...which looks like just ended up just more of the same old thing we have now...I fail to see how he has done anything all that left wing.  Not that he had to do anything to have Republicans foaming at the mouth, simply his existance as President is all it takes.  Bush could have handed each leftist in this country a hundred dollars and they still would have hated him, same shit different day.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 12:15:07 PM
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 11:48:39 AM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 11:37:21 AM
Most people don't know what a socialist is. Any party that is slightly left of centre right is labelled a socialsit.

Face it, Americans are pretty ignorant and easily gullable

Actually, I think the term "socialist" has such a negative connotation here that folks on the left shy away from using it even when it is accurate.  We have quite a few de facto socialists in the US, but few will self-identify as such.

Err, the central tenet of socialism is public or worker ownership of means of production. Last time I checked Obama wasn't nationalizing American industry.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Grallon on February 03, 2010, 12:16:10 PM
Many of these people also belive in the flat earth or creationist myths as well as other sorts of religious-inspired stupidities.

How is it that a country like the US can maintain such a large contingent of... ignorant fucks?  I mean some of this shit is 3rd World grade obscurantism.




G.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:16:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 12:09:00 PM
Congratulations, you have figured out that there are ignorant people on the right who do not think very rationally. Kudos.

Kind of sad it takes some silly poll like this to illuminate this truism for you though.

Huh?  I talk about this all the time, I only brought it up again in this thread because it is topical.  I live in Texas I am surrounded by it.  I visited a government office in the county just north of Austin a few days ago and it was full of Fundy Christian posters, posters with scare tactics against anybody having sex, and so forth.  Made me glad I don't live there.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 12:08:25 PM
We have had the discussion about socialists in the US.  In the US a hard core leftie would be a moderate NDP member in Canada.  A hard core NDP member in Canada would be shot on sight in the US.

There are no socialists in the US.  There are few left in Canada.

Pretty much. It seems in the US someone with some moderate socialdemocratic ideas would be called a socialist, whereas any true socialist would consider a full-blown socialdemocrat to be a capitalistic sell-out.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 03, 2010, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 03, 2010, 10:10:37 AM
I miss ED Hill's legs on Fox and Friends in the morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AetBNbX3j7Q&feature=related (NSFW)

I always found her voice annoying.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:17:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 12:15:07 PM
Err, the central tenet of socialism is public or worker ownership of means of production. Last time I checked Obama wasn't nationalizing American industry.

It is just like Berkut said.  It simply an insult over here and doesn't mean anything substantial, like calling Bush a fascist.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:20:17 PM
Quote from: Grallon on February 03, 2010, 12:16:10 PM
How is it that a country like the US can maintain such a large contingent of... ignorant fucks?

What do you mean a 'country like the US'?  We have always been that way.  Besides all countries are full of ignorant fucks as most people are ignorant fucks.  Even most of the people who do not believe these things would if social pressure was applied.  Most people simply think what they are told to think.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 12:20:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 12:15:07 PM
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 11:48:39 AM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 11:37:21 AM
Most people don't know what a socialist is. Any party that is slightly left of centre right is labelled a socialsit.

Face it, Americans are pretty ignorant and easily gullable

Actually, I think the term "socialist" has such a negative connotation here that folks on the left shy away from using it even when it is accurate.  We have quite a few de facto socialists in the US, but few will self-identify as such.

Err, the central tenet of socialism is public or worker ownership of means of production. Last time I checked Obama wasn't nationalizing American industry.

He did want to takeover GM, and give it to the UAW.

That at least seems kinda socialist, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 12:20:22 PM
He did want to takeover GM, and give it to the UAW.

That at least seems kinda socialist, doesn't it?

Since GM is pretty much just a pension scheme disguised as a car company they might as well :P
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 12:29:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:20:17 PM
Quote from: Grallon on February 03, 2010, 12:16:10 PM
How is it that a country like the US can maintain such a large contingent of... ignorant fucks?

What do you mean a 'country like the US'?  We have always been that way.  Besides all countries are full of ignorant fucks as most people are ignorant fucks.  Even most of the people who do not believe these things would if social pressure was applied.  Most people simply think what they are told to think.

I have the same reaction as Grallon.  When I think of the US I think of a population that is generally well educated with some of the best Universities in the world.  This kind of poll contradicts that view.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Grallon on February 03, 2010, 12:32:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:20:17 PM

Even most of the people who do not believe these things would if social pressure was applied.  Most people simply think what they are told to think.


There's a difference between not being coversant in electronics, russian history or structuralism - and beleiving the Earth is flat or no older than 6000 years...  But it's true religions are very effective social control tools.




G.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: The Brain on February 03, 2010, 01:16:17 PM
Americans are Socialists.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 01:17:54 PM
Quote from: Grallon on February 03, 2010, 12:16:10 PM
Many of these people also belive in the flat earth or creationist myths as well as other sorts of religious-inspired stupidities.

How is it that a country like the US can maintain such a large contingent of... ignorant fucks?  I mean some of this shit is 3rd World grade obscurantism.




G.

That's the American public education system.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 01:19:15 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 12:29:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:20:17 PM
Quote from: Grallon on February 03, 2010, 12:16:10 PM
How is it that a country like the US can maintain such a large contingent of... ignorant fucks?

What do you mean a 'country like the US'?  We have always been that way.  Besides all countries are full of ignorant fucks as most people are ignorant fucks.  Even most of the people who do not believe these things would if social pressure was applied.  Most people simply think what they are told to think.

I have the same reaction as Grallon.  When I think of the US I think of a population that is generally well educated with some of the best Universities in the world.  This kind of poll contradicts that view.

The US does have some of the best universities in the world. But what percentage of Americans go there?   I am sure that more than half of Americans, (and I'm not just picking on them) do not have post-secondary education.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 01:27:46 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 01:19:15 PM
The US does have some of the best universities in the world. But what percentage of Americans go there?   I am sure that more than half of Americans, (and I'm not just picking on them) do not have post-secondary education.

Yes, I am sure that less then half do.  As with other countries.  But the US is still a highly literate, educated nation.  That is why the poll surprises me.

Does anyone know the educational background of Republican supporters?  Just an impression but I would have guessed they would be more highly educated then Democrats given the socio-economic groups the two parties appeal to for their support.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 12:04:50 PM
I do have a hard time imagining how people who think removing sex education while discouraging contraception, safe sex, and abortion is a great social policy are not rather stupid.
So you are arguing that you have a poor imagination?  Okay.  I think we can accept that as stipulated.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 01:33:54 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 01:19:15 PM
I am sure that more than half of Americans, (and I'm not just picking on them) do not have post-secondary education.

You're wrong.  As of 2008, 54.8% of the US population had some education post-high school.  19.7% had "some college," 8.3% an associate degree, 17.8% a bachelor's degree, and 9.0% a post-graduate degree.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/cps2008.html
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 01:38:19 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 01:27:46 PM
Does anyone know the educational background of Republican supporters?  Just an impression but I would have guessed they would be more highly educated then Democrats given the socio-economic groups the two parties appeal to for their support.

Generally speaking, the Democrats have more supporters without a high school diploma or with a post-graduate degree, and the Republicans have more supporters with a high school diploma or a bachelor's degree.

See:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29#College_education
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 01:39:22 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 12:29:36 PM
I have the same reaction as Grallon.  When I think of the US I think of a population that is generally well educated with some of the best Universities in the world.  This kind of poll contradicts that view.
Congrats!  You have been gullible enough to accept the conclusion that Daily Kos wanted you to reach!

I would draw no conclusions from this poll.  You already knew that there were some ignorant people in the world, and now you know that there are some ignorant people in the world.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 01:40:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 12:17:13 PM
Pretty much. It seems in the US someone with some moderate socialdemocratic ideas would be called a socialist, whereas any true socialist would consider a full-blown socialdemocrat to be a capitalistic sell-out.

Social Democracy is just a lighter form of socialism IMO, and many Social Democrats are just pragmatic Socialists who realize they're not likely to get full-blown Socialism in the short term.  I know you foreigners claim some separation between the two, and maybe that's the reality in your countries since you have mainstream or at least well-known Social Democrat/Socialist parties. 

But since the label "Socialist" means instant political death in US politics, our de facto socialists & social democrats simply join with the Democrats.  These folks are able to fly under the radar by using terms like 'progressive' amongst themselves.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 01:42:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 02:27:46 AM
QuoteIn addition, 73 percent said openly gay men and women should not be allowed to teach in public schools.

Wow. Just wow.


If that were remotely true, prop 6 would have been a landslide victory, don't you think?


I don't believe anything about this poll.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 01:42:23 PM
If that were remotely true, prop 6 would have been a landslide victory, don't you think?

Nah.  You have to figure turnout issues and how people self-report as well.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 01:39:22 PM
Congrats!  You have been gullible enough to accept the conclusion that Daily Kos wanted you to reach!

I would draw no conclusions from this poll.  You already knew that there were some ignorant people in the world, and now you know that there are some ignorant people in the world.

There is nothing gullible in noting that the poll contradicts my view of Americans as being highly educated and that Republicans are more highly educated then Democrats.

You seem to be suggesting that the Daily Kos (whatever that is) has manufactured the polling numbers in some way so as to make them unreliable.  That confirms my view that the poll does not agree with my perception of Americans and so I will continue to hold the view that I do.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 02:04:05 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 01:47:14 PM
There is nothing gullible in noting that the poll contradicts my view of Americans as being highly educated and that Republicans are more highly educated then Democrats.

Note that this is a bellshaped curve, with the Democrats ahead on the lowest and highest ends.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 02:34:47 PM
Did you guys happen to notice the geographical breakdown of the sampling?  Here it is from the original link:

QuoteDemographics
MEN           1125 56%
WOMEN   878    44%
WHITE   1787 89%
OTHER/REF   216   11%
18-29   178   9%
30-44   418   21%
45-59   664   33%
60+           743   37%
NE           217   11%
SOUTH   846   42%
MW           437   22%
WEST   503   25%

I know there are a lot of Republicans in the south, but it seems a bit skewed.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 02:44:32 PM
It's an awfully big sampling of old people too.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Ed Anger on February 03, 2010, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 02:44:32 PM
It's an awfully big sampling of old people too.

Old people are ANGRY. Young people suck.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Grallon on February 03, 2010, 02:46:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 02:34:47 PM

I know there are a lot of Republicans in the south, but it seems a bit skewed.



Carpetbaggers never were as efficient as one might like nowadays.  <_< 




G.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Ed Anger on February 03, 2010, 02:51:10 PM
Quote from: Grallon on February 03, 2010, 02:46:48 PM
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 02:34:47 PM

I know there are a lot of Republicans in the south, but it seems a bit skewed.



Carpetbaggers never were as efficient as one might like nowadays.  <_< 




G.

Cal is too busy scraping the grease trap at BP to vote in a Kos poll.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 01:33:54 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 01:19:15 PM
I am sure that more than half of Americans, (and I'm not just picking on them) do not have post-secondary education.

You're wrong.  As of 2008, 54.8% of the US population had some education post-high school.  19.7% had "some college," 8.3% an associate degree, 17.8% a bachelor's degree, and 9.0% a post-graduate degree.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/cps2008.html

17.8 per cent with a bachelor's degree is nothing to write home about.
That means that 82 per cent of Americans have not graduated from university.


Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Ed Anger on February 03, 2010, 02:57:18 PM
Hell, I don't have a Bachelor's. And I turned out normal.

Sorta.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 03:01:33 PM
I'm always amazed at how much space to the left of Democrats there is in public policy which in the US is just left entirely alone.  You very rarely hear a thorough-going social democratic argument in American politics.  Obama's probably the most liberal President since LBJ - though I think that's a sign of how far the centre of gravity's moved to the right than anything else - but he is a mainstream liberal, that's all.  He's not even a social democrat far less a socialist.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 03:05:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 03:01:33 PM
He's not even a social democrat far less a socialist.

So then what is it that makes you think he is just a liberal & not (at least) a social democrat?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 03:10:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 03:05:21 PM
So then what is it that makes you think he is just a liberal & not (at least) a social democrat?
His policies.  Ralph Nader seems to be roughly where a social democrat is.  I mean Obama doesn't want significant reform of the structure of work in the US or work-life balance, he's no real interest, so far as I can tell, in a leftist welfare reform, or in generally tighter regulation in the market in general (banking's a bit of a special case right now).  He's a mainstream American liberal.  No more, no less.

Edit:  Plus his environmental policy is comparatively weak and his healthcare policy is roughly what the Republicans suggested in 94 and actually to the right of what Nixon offered Kennedy.  It's certainly not a thorough going social insurance model.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 03:15:41 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 02:55:51 PM
17.8 per cent with a bachelor's degree is nothing to write home about.
That means that 82 per cent of Americans have not graduated from university.

No, it doesn't.  Check the associate degree and post-graduate degree entries as well (the numbers there are only for the highest educational level attained).  Gets you up to 35.1% that have a post-secondary degree of some sort.  When added to the 19.7% that have attended college but not graduated, that's over half of Americans with some post-secondary education.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 04:05:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 11:10:14 AM
QuoteMeanwhile, nearly a quarter of the Republicans polled, 23 percent, want their state to secede from the union.

:lol: Ok I never want to hear a Republican attack the left as being anti-American again.  At least the wacky leftists just threaten to leave the country, the wacky right wants to destroy it.  Of course surely they were just...what...drunk when they answered those questions?

But I mean seriously these guys make Hans appear to be a clear thinking moderate by comparison...actually judging by the level of political discourse in this country these days he pretty much is.
I disagree with your premise.  I think Republicans in very red states that want to secede from America are being very pro-American indeed.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 04:13:39 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 03, 2010, 01:27:46 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 01:19:15 PM
The US does have some of the best universities in the world. But what percentage of Americans go there?   I am sure that more than half of Americans, (and I'm not just picking on them) do not have post-secondary education.

Yes, I am sure that less then half do.  As with other countries.  But the US is still a highly literate, educated nation.  That is why the poll surprises me.

Does anyone know the educational background of Republican supporters?  Just an impression but I would have guessed they would be more highly educated then Democrats given the socio-economic groups the two parties appeal to for their support.
There is more to it than lack of education.  Actuaries are all highly-educated, and yet I know many right-wing actuaries that are as stupid and unsophisticated as the regular morons when it comes to politics, they're just being stupid with better spelling and grammar.  It's very defeating to realize that intelligence and education seem to be no defense against complete insanity when it comes to politics.  It's like all humans are programmed to be green Drazis or purple Drazis, despising each other merely out of tradition.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 04:17:29 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 01:33:54 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 01:19:15 PM
I am sure that more than half of Americans, (and I'm not just picking on them) do not have post-secondary education.

You're wrong.  As of 2008, 54.8% of the US population had some education post-high school.  19.7% had "some college," 8.3% an associate degree, 17.8% a bachelor's degree, and 9.0% a post-graduate degree.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/cps2008.html

17.8 per cent with a bachelor's degree is nothing to write home about.
That means that 82 per cent of Americans have not graduated from university.
I imagine that you need a bachelor's degree to get a post-graduate degree.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 04:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 03:10:03 PM
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 03:05:21 PM
So then what is it that makes you think he is just a liberal & not (at least) a social democrat?
His policies.  Ralph Nader seems to be roughly where a social democrat is.  I mean Obama doesn't want significant reform of the structure of work in the US or work-life balance, he's no real interest, so far as I can tell, in a leftist welfare reform, or in generally tighter regulation in the market in general (banking's a bit of a special case right now).  He's a mainstream American liberal.  No more, no less.

Edit:  Plus his environmental policy is comparatively weak and his healthcare policy is roughly what the Republicans suggested in 94 and actually to the right of what Nixon offered Kennedy.  It's certainly not a thorough going social insurance model.

I'd say Obama as an individual is at least a Social Democrat.  If his administration's policies haven't borne that out so much, it's due to Democrat moderates in congress & not wanting to get waxed in the midterm & '12 elections.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: dps on February 03, 2010, 04:17:48 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 01:42:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 02:27:46 AM
QuoteIn addition, 73 percent said openly gay men and women should not be allowed to teach in public schools.

Wow. Just wow.


If that were remotely true, prop 6 would have been a landslide victory, don't you think?


I don't believe anything about this poll.

I think a bunch of people just deliberately gave answers that they didn't really mean, just to fuck with the poll. 
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 04:28:23 PM
Quote from: derspiess on February 03, 2010, 04:17:45 PM
I'd say Obama as an individual is at least a Social Democrat.  If his administration's policies haven't borne that out so much, it's due to Democrat moderates in congress & not wanting to get waxed in the midterm & '12 elections.
Do you have any evidence that he's a social democrat?  I ask because neither his administration's policies, nor the policies he ran on, nor frankly his career at Senate or state-level politics really suggest he is.

And I've never heard the "Reid-Pelosi" Democratic Congress described as moderate.  Though I think you're right.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: The Minsky Moment on February 03, 2010, 04:38:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 12:20:22 PM
He did want to takeover GM, and give it to the UAW.

That at least seems kinda socialist, doesn't it?

I am quite sure he did not *want* to take over GM.  I think he felt his options were somewhat limited when the horribly bleeding body of GM showed up at the White House asking for some band-aids.

If anything the WH has been too reticent to use the rights its of its majority stake and too deferential to the GM BOD, which seems to be amusing itself with a game of executive musical chairs.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Fate on February 03, 2010, 05:20:45 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 01:42:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 02:27:46 AM
QuoteIn addition, 73 percent said openly gay men and women should not be allowed to teach in public schools.

Wow. Just wow.


If that were remotely true, prop 6 would have been a landslide victory, don't you think?


I don't believe anything about this poll.

Why not? The poll is of *self-identified Republicans*. These are rather hard core folks. The 20% who still approved of Bush in late 2008. If the radical anti-homosexual agenda didn't have supermajority level support among these guys, then it'd never succeed on a ballot.

They did not poll the squishies like Berkut or Grumbler who call themselves "independents" but vote straight GOP every November. They did not take a random sample of all Americans of voting age.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 06:15:29 PM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 05:20:45 PM
Why not? The poll is of *self-identified Republicans*. These are rather hard core folks. The 20% who still approved of Bush in late 2008. If the radical anti-homosexual agenda didn't have supermajority level support among these guys, then it'd never succeed on a ballot.

They did not poll the squishies like Berkut or Grumbler who call themselves "independents" but vote straight GOP every November. They did not take a random sample of all Americans of voting age.

Aren't you a "self-identified Republican" when the mood strikes you?  :lol:
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Razgovory on February 03, 2010, 06:20:38 PM
Quote from: dps on February 03, 2010, 04:17:48 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 03, 2010, 01:42:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 02:27:46 AM
QuoteIn addition, 73 percent said openly gay men and women should not be allowed to teach in public schools.

Wow. Just wow.


If that were remotely true, prop 6 would have been a landslide victory, don't you think?


I don't believe anything about this poll.

I think a bunch of people just deliberately gave answers that they didn't really mean, just to fuck with the poll.

You say that about every poll that makes Republicans look like kooks.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 03, 2010, 07:01:00 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 01:33:54 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 01:19:15 PM
I am sure that more than half of Americans, (and I'm not just picking on them) do not have post-secondary education.

You're wrong.  As of 2008, 54.8% of the US population had some education post-high school.  19.7% had "some college," 8.3% an associate degree, 17.8% a bachelor's degree, and 9.0% a post-graduate degree.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/cps2008.html

17.8 per cent with a bachelor's degree is nothing to write home about.
That means that 82 per cent of Americans have not graduated from university.
I thought I'd read that the US had the largest percentage of the population with degrees in the world? Not true? :unsure:

Oh, and you have to add the 9% with postgrad degrees to that right, so 26.8% have at least a Bachelor's degree.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 03, 2010, 07:02:21 PM
Quote from: Strix on February 03, 2010, 01:19:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 03, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
Berkut was unsure about the racist angle.  Alot of people have been pushing it.  This is the second poll that shows a significant number of Republicans think that Acorn stole the election.

Oddly enough I have never met a Republican who thought Acorn had stolen the election.  :unsure:

Well, Diebold stole 2004, so now everybody's even, now aren't they?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 03, 2010, 07:15:04 PM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 05:20:45 PM
They did not poll the squishies like Berkut or Grumbler who call themselves "independents" but vote straight GOP every November. They did not take a random sample of all Americans of voting age.

I think Berkut voted for Obama and Kerry. Dunno about grumbler.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2010, 07:41:20 PM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 05:20:45 PM
Why not? The poll is of *self-identified Republicans*. These are rather hard core folks. The 20% who still approved of Bush in late 2008. If the radical anti-homosexual agenda didn't have supermajority level support among these guys, then it'd never succeed on a ballot.

They did not poll the squishies like Berkut or Grumbler who call themselves "independents" but vote straight GOP every November. They did not take a random sample of all Americans of voting age.
"Self-identified Republicans" are either people who answered yes to the question are you a Republican, in which case the answers make no sense to many people, me included, or they are some hinky DailyKos filter that renders the results meaningless.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Ed Anger on February 03, 2010, 07:43:02 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 03, 2010, 07:15:04 PM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 05:20:45 PM
They did not poll the squishies like Berkut or Grumbler who call themselves "independents" but vote straight GOP every November. They did not take a random sample of all Americans of voting age.

I think Berkut voted for Obama and Kerry. Dunno about grumbler.

I voted Nader.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 07:47:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2010, 07:41:20 PM
"Self-identified Republicans" are either people who answered yes to the question are you a Republican, in which case the answers make no sense to many people, me included
I don't understand this bit.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2010, 07:48:56 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 07:47:26 PM
I don't understand this bit.
I would not expect a random survey of registered Republicans to yield these survey results based on the Republicans I know personally.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Viking on February 03, 2010, 07:50:12 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 03, 2010, 07:43:02 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 03, 2010, 07:15:04 PM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 05:20:45 PM
They did not poll the squishies like Berkut or Grumbler who call themselves "independents" but vote straight GOP every November. They did not take a random sample of all Americans of voting age.

I think Berkut voted for Obama and Kerry. Dunno about grumbler.

I voted Nader.

He's a Lefty, Green and an Ayrab, not to mention to guy who got "W" elected. U R worse than HlTL8R.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 07:54:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2010, 07:48:56 PM
I would not expect a random survey of registered Republicans to yield these survey results based on the Republicans I know personally.
They seem largely congruent with other poll results we've had from Republicans though, for example the 50+% who were either unsure whether Obama was born in the country or believed he wasn't.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Neil on February 03, 2010, 09:21:40 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 01:33:54 PM
Quote from: Josephus on February 03, 2010, 01:19:15 PM
I am sure that more than half of Americans, (and I'm not just picking on them) do not have post-secondary education.

You're wrong.  As of 2008, 54.8% of the US population had some education post-high school.  19.7% had "some college," 8.3% an associate degree, 17.8% a bachelor's degree, and 9.0% a post-graduate degree.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/cps2008.html
17.8 per cent with a bachelor's degree is nothing to write home about.
That means that 82 per cent of Americans have not graduated from university.
You know what?  I actually approve of that.  In fact, it would be better if much fewer people had a university education.  The idea that college is necessary has cheapened it.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 09:56:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 04:13:39 PM
... I know many right-wing actuaries that are as stupid and unsophisticated as the regular morons when it comes to politics...


It's like all humans are programmed to be green Drazis or purple Drazis, despising each other merely out of tradition.

...says the purple Drazi...
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 10:02:08 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 03, 2010, 07:15:04 PM
Quote from: Fate on February 03, 2010, 05:20:45 PM
They did not poll the squishies like Berkut or Grumbler who call themselves "independents" but vote straight GOP every November. They did not take a random sample of all Americans of voting age.

I think Berkut voted for Obama and Kerry. Dunno about grumbler.
Please don't feed the troll.  :hug:
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 10:03:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 09:56:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 04:13:39 PM
... I know many right-wing actuaries that are as stupid and unsophisticated as the regular morons when it comes to politics...


It's like all humans are programmed to be green Drazis or purple Drazis, despising each other merely out of tradition.

...says the purple Drazi...
Green Drazi!
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Neil on February 03, 2010, 10:07:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 10:03:38 PM
Green Drazi!
Obama is no Ivanova.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DontSayBanana on February 03, 2010, 10:25:23 PM
Political self-identification is for fascists, commies, and Kampus Kiddies (though there may be some bleed between them and commies).
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Razgovory on February 03, 2010, 11:03:44 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on February 03, 2010, 10:25:23 PM
Political self-identification is for fascists, commies, and Kampus Kiddies (though there may be some bleed between them and commies).

And states with closed primaries.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 11:37:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 09:56:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 04:13:39 PM
... I know many right-wing actuaries that are as stupid and unsophisticated as the regular morons when it comes to politics...


It's like all humans are programmed to be green Drazis or purple Drazis, despising each other merely out of tradition.

...says the purple Drazi...
You're still doing that shtick where you pretend to be an independent above it all, but then proceed to uncritically recite many of the Republican talking points?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: ulmont on February 03, 2010, 11:42:14 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 11:37:06 PM
You're still doing that shtick where you pretend to be an independent above it all, but then proceed to uncritically recite many of the Republican talking points?

Most people are like that.  Actual independents are very rare.
See http://www.themonkeycage.org/2009/12/three_myths_about_political_in.html
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 03, 2010, 11:43:42 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 11:37:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 09:56:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 04:13:39 PM
... I know many right-wing actuaries that are as stupid and unsophisticated as the regular morons when it comes to politics...


It's like all humans are programmed to be green Drazis or purple Drazis, despising each other merely out of tradition.

...says the purple Drazi...
You're still doing that shtick where you pretend to be an independent above it all, but then proceed to uncritically recite many of the Republican talking points?
:mellow:
The man definitely voted for Obama in '08 and IIRC Kerry (only 75% sure on that one) in '04.

Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 11:46:29 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 03, 2010, 11:43:42 PM
:mellow:
The man definitely voted for Obama in '08 and IIRC Kerry (only 75% sure on that one) in '04.
Yes, he votes like a Democrat, but he debates like a Republican.  As I said many times, he's one of those people who think that being unpredictably biased equates to being objective.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 12:34:18 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 03, 2010, 11:43:42 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 11:37:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 03, 2010, 09:56:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 04:13:39 PM
... I know many right-wing actuaries that are as stupid and unsophisticated as the regular morons when it comes to politics...


It's like all humans are programmed to be green Drazis or purple Drazis, despising each other merely out of tradition.

...says the purple Drazi...
You're still doing that shtick where you pretend to be an independent above it all, but then proceed to uncritically recite many of the Republican talking points?
:mellow:
The man definitely voted for Obama in '08 and IIRC Kerry (only 75% sure on that one) in '04.

And called him self "Mr. Republican" while take government handouts.  He later started speaking in tongues while running away backwards on his hands.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: jimmy olsen on February 04, 2010, 12:50:27 AM
This poll reminded me of this cartoon.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.salon.com%2Fcomics%2Ftomo%2F2009%2F05%2F19%2Ftomo%2Fstory.jpg&hash=7cc1c30b36406a118025240569ab6149479d0383)
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 03:20:34 AM
Why must your ruin a perfectly good thread?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 04, 2010, 04:14:34 AM
I'm not sure how a red x ruins the thread?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 04, 2010, 04:20:46 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 10:02:08 PM
Please don't feed the troll.  :hug:

Awww, grandpa, can't we keep it?  :cry:
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Ed Anger on February 04, 2010, 08:57:31 AM
Quote from: Neil on February 03, 2010, 09:21:40 PM

You know what?  I actually approve of that.  In fact, it would be better if much fewer people had a university education.  The idea that college is necessary has cheapened it.

:yes:
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 09:00:40 AM
Quote from: DGuller on February 03, 2010, 11:46:29 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 03, 2010, 11:43:42 PM
:mellow:
The man definitely voted for Obama in '08 and IIRC Kerry (only 75% sure on that one) in '04.
Yes, he votes like a Democrat, but he debates like a Republican.  As I said many times, he's one of those people who think that being unpredictably biased equates to being objective.

Oh yes, you know me, just regurgitating Republican talking points, like being pro-choice, in favor of gay marriage, etc., etc.

You think anyone who does not slavishly wear their purple headband at all times MUST therefore really have a secret hidden green one that they are truly allied to.

*You* however, suffer from no such illusions - you talk, argue, vote, and think straitline party doctrine. And in fact anyone who does not is "stupid and unsophisticated" because of course if they were not, they would have a nice purple headband, like all smart and sophisticated Drazi do.

I think being objective is being objective. Your anger towards towards those who are objective says everything that needs to be said about your own inability to handle a little objectivity. Which is fine - most people are like that after all - but what is hilarious is listening to you then whine about tribalism in the very same post that you exhibit the worst traits of it.

What is especially interesting is how willing you are to simply blatantly lie in order to further your crusade against the heresy of not choosing a color. You have certainly been around long enough to notice that I end up on the Democratic side of plenty of debates (global warming, most social issues, even health care at times) - yet are perfectly willing to make comments like "he debates like a Republican" or "uncritically recites republican talking points" when you know that is simply not true. I thought you were all about integrity and being honest? What happened to that?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 09:03:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 12:34:18 AM


And called him self "Mr. Republican" while take government handouts.  He later started speaking in tongues while running away backwards on his hands.

...and you don't understand the intended self-irony of using the term "Mr Republican" in quotes, do you?

Wow - you guys are really, really threatened by people who do not buy into your tribalism. Much worse than any green Drazi -far worse - is the Drazi who refuses to wear one color or another, or even switches back and forth!

Those are the REAL heretics!
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 09:03:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 12:34:18 AM


And called him self "Mr. Republican" while take government handouts.  He later started speaking in tongues while running away backwards on his hands.

...and you don't understand the intended self-irony of using the term "Mr Republican" in quotes, do you?

Wow - you guys are really, really threatened by people who do not buy into your tribalism. Much worse than any green Drazi -far worse - is the Drazi who refuses to wear one color or another, or even switches back and forth!

Those are the REAL heretics!

The quotes were mine.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 09:03:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 12:34:18 AM


And called him self "Mr. Republican" while take government handouts.  He later started speaking in tongues while running away backwards on his hands.

...and you don't understand the intended self-irony of using the term "Mr Republican" in quotes, do you?

Wow - you guys are really, really threatened by people who do not buy into your tribalism. Much worse than any green Drazi -far worse - is the Drazi who refuses to wear one color or another, or even switches back and forth!

Those are the REAL heretics!

The quotes were mine.

Why would you put it in quotes, if in fact I did not, and you do in fact believe that I am a true blue died in the wool Republican?

That makes even less sense than your feigned inability to understand the irony behind me calling myself "Mr. Republican", with or without quotes.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 01:01:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 09:00:40 AM
Oh yes, you know me, just regurgitating Republican talking points, like being pro-choice, in favor of gay marriage, etc., etc.
I did not say that your positions are a straight party ticket.  However, often your arguments incorporate highly faulty reasoning borrowed from the ideologues (like the theory that subprime meltdown was the fault of CRA), and those are without fail the faulty reasoning provided by Republicans.
Quote*You* however, suffer from no such illusions - you talk, argue, vote, and think straitline party doctrine.
That's a true statement, if you ignore all my positions and actions that go against the party doctrine.  I do however admit that my dislike of Republicans is strong, due to their idelogues routinely twisting truth and logic in support of their position, and the fact those their propaganda so often enter conventional wisdom.  And, no, both parties don't do that to the same degree, the lack of respect for intellectualism and reason is mainly a Republican thing.
QuoteAnd in fact anyone who does not is "stupid and unsophisticated" because of course if they were not, they would have a nice purple headband, like all smart and sophisticated Drazi do.
There are certain arguments that are objectively completely unreasonable and illogical, regardless of the moral values held by someone.  Once again, Republicans have the market cornered on that one.
QuoteI think being objective is being objective. Your anger towards towards those who are objective says everything that needs to be said about your own inability to handle a little objectivity.
My anger is with people who feign objectivity in order to elevate their own opinions, and put down the opinions of those who argue with them.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 09:03:42 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 12:34:18 AM


And called him self "Mr. Republican" while take government handouts.  He later started speaking in tongues while running away backwards on his hands.

...and you don't understand the intended self-irony of using the term "Mr Republican" in quotes, do you?

Wow - you guys are really, really threatened by people who do not buy into your tribalism. Much worse than any green Drazi -far worse - is the Drazi who refuses to wear one color or another, or even switches back and forth!

Those are the REAL heretics!

The quotes were mine.

Why would you put it in quotes, if in fact I did not, and you do in fact believe that I am a true blue died in the wool Republican?

That makes even less sense than your feigned inability to understand the irony behind me calling myself "Mr. Republican", with or without quotes.

Because I was taught in school to put quotation marks around statements quoted from other people.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:11:34 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 01:01:12 PM
...without fail the faulty reasoning provided by Republicans....
Quote*You* however, suffer from no such illusions - you talk, argue, vote, and think straitline party doctrine.
... due to their idelogues routinely twisting truth and logic in support of their position...
...the fact those their propaganda so often enter conventional wisdom...
...the lack of respect for intellectualism and reason is mainly a Republican thing...
...certain arguments that are objectively completely unreasonable and illogical, regardless of the moral values held by someone.  Once again, Republicans have the market cornered on that one.

This is what is so funny about you, of all people, complaining about green and purple Drazi and how people cannot think critically or objectively. The best part is that you simply cannot see it in yourself, when in fact you are almost a caricature of the very thing you are bitching about. You really do believe that the purple truly is superior to the green, and that this is clearly and objectively true, and you just cannot imagine how everyone else doesn't see it to..
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:13:37 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 01:01:12 PM
My anger is with people who feign objectivity in order to elevate their own opinions, and put down the opinions of those who argue with them.

So you think I am not really pro-choice, or in favor of gay marriage and all those other things? It is "feigned" in an effort to falsely portray myself as "objective" in an effort to "elevate my own opinions".

Tell me DG - how can you tell the difference between someone who is actually objective, and someone who is just feigning it?

I suspect that if someone were truly objective, you would know because they agree with you on all these self evident truths? A *truly* objective person would wear the purple headband, for sure!
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 01:22:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:11:34 PM
This is what is so funny about you, of all people, complaining about green and purple Drazi and how people cannot think critically or objectively. The best part is that you simply cannot see it in yourself, when in fact you are almost a caricature of the very thing you are bitching about. You really do believe that the purple truly is superior to the green, and that this is clearly and objectively true, and you just cannot imagine how everyone else doesn't see it to..
Assuming that the truth is in the middle does not make one objective.  It merely makes one a fan of the fallacy of the middle ground.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:27:07 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 01:22:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:11:34 PM
This is what is so funny about you, of all people, complaining about green and purple Drazi and how people cannot think critically or objectively. The best part is that you simply cannot see it in yourself, when in fact you are almost a caricature of the very thing you are bitching about. You really do believe that the purple truly is superior to the green, and that this is clearly and objectively true, and you just cannot imagine how everyone else doesn't see it to..
Assuming that the truth is in the middle does not make one objective.  It merely makes one a fan of the fallacy of the middle ground.

This is a strawman - I don't assume the "truth" is in the middle. I just don't believe that either party has "cornered the market" on it, or on being stupid, unlike you. I don't believe that some gay people should be allowed to be married, for example. In fact, I hold very few positions that are really all that moderate. They just aren't consistently one-sided. And I certainly do not complain about how everyone is so partisan while being ridiculously partisan myself, and painting those who disagree with me as complete morons.

Which is why my position is based on the issues, rather than the parties. This is called "objectivity", Purple.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 01:31:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:13:37 PM
So you think I am not really pro-choice, or in favor of gay marriage and all those other things? It is "feigned" in an effort to falsely portray myself as "objective" in an effort to "elevate my own opinions".

Tell me DG - how can you tell the difference between someone who is actually objective, and someone who is just feigning it?

I suspect that if someone were truly objective, you would know because they agree with you on all these self evident truths? A *truly* objective person would wear the purple headband, for sure!
To repeat again, I'm not saying that you're a straigh ticket Republican.  I'm just saying that when you argue in support of a Republican position, you often argue with faulty reasoning borrowed from the ideologues.  The same does not happen when you argue a Democratic position, which you do sometimes (never said that you didn't).

How can I tell if someone is being objective?  By seeing how often they're employing illogical arguments.  Some partisan arguments can be shown to be illogical regardless of personal values.  For example, blasting Obama for the explosion in deficit is illogical.  It ignores the fact that the budget deficit ballooned before he took office.  Likewise, arguing that we should cut taxes and balance the budget is illogical, for obvious reasons.  Making arguments that are routinely blasted by independent fact checkers is also a sign that you're not being a critical thinker.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Malthus on February 04, 2010, 01:32:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:27:07 PM
I don't believe that some gay people should be allowed to be married, for example.

Lemmie guess - Martinus?  ;)
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:45:36 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 01:31:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:13:37 PM
So you think I am not really pro-choice, or in favor of gay marriage and all those other things? It is "feigned" in an effort to falsely portray myself as "objective" in an effort to "elevate my own opinions".

Tell me DG - how can you tell the difference between someone who is actually objective, and someone who is just feigning it?

I suspect that if someone were truly objective, you would know because they agree with you on all these self evident truths? A *truly* objective person would wear the purple headband, for sure!
To repeat again, I'm not saying that you're a straigh ticket Republican.  I'm just saying that when you argue in support of a Republican position, you often argue with faulty reasoning borrowed from the ideologues.  The same does not happen when you argue a Democratic position, which you do sometimes (never said that you didn't).

Actually, what you said was that I:

"feign objectivity in order to elevate their own opinions" which is accusing my of faking objectivity, ie lying about my positions.

Which is simply a lie, as you well know.

Quote

How can I tell if someone is being objective?  By seeing how often they're employing illogical arguments. 

Horseshit - objective people can certainly employ illogical arguments. So can un-objective people.

un-objective people often claim that their argument are perfectly logical, and assume that those who do not find them so self-evidently true are somehow engaged in something dis-honest. That is a common trait of tribal thinking - the inability to accept that others can disagree with you in perfectly good faith.

Quote
Some partisan arguments can be shown to be illogical regardless of personal values.

Indeed they can. overly partisan people however, tend to only see that about the OTHER sides arguments, while theirs are all perfectly logical, again "regardless of personal values".

Quote
  For example, blasting Obama for the explosion in deficit is illogical.  It ignores the fact that the budget deficit ballooned before he took office.

:lmfao:

Indeed! Since it ballooned BEFORE he took office, why, it is so terribly logical to give him a complete pass on how much it has ballooned ever more AFTER he has taken office! Any Green can see that this is perfectly true, and only a Purple would make such an illogical argument as to assign any blame for what the deficit has done under Obama and a democratic congress to Obama and the Democrats!

In fact, this is SO self-evidently true, that one can assume that anyone making such an argument is in fact a double secret Purple who is "feigning objectivity in order to elevate their (illogical) arguments!"
Quote
  Likewise, arguing that we should cut taxes and balance the budget is illogical, for obvious reasons. 

Of course - anyone who would argue that we should cut taxes OR balance the budget, ever, must be illogical! Because clearly this core Purple idea that is almost diametrically opposed to the core Green idea is in fact the only rational and sane position to ever have, so anyone who does not have that position (which just so conveniently perfectly lines up with Purple ideology) is obviously irrational and lacks objectivity.

So I guess I was right - the ability to tell if someone is "objective" is pretty much "Do they agree with DG?"
Making arguments that are routinely blasted by independent fact checkers is also a sign that you're not being a critical thinker.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: crazy canuck on February 04, 2010, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: Malthus on February 04, 2010, 01:32:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:27:07 PM
I don't believe that some gay people should be allowed to be married, for example.

Lemmie guess - Martinus?  ;)

He said gay people ;)
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 02:05:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:45:36 PM
Actually, what you said was that I:

"feign objectivity in order to elevate their own opinions" which is accusing my of faking objectivity, ie lying about my positions.

Which is simply a lie, as you well know.
Unlike you, I do not equate objectivity with partisanship or one's stand on positions.  If you support your positions with illogical arguments, you're probably not being objective, and instead coming to conclusion first and then covering it up with reasoning.
Quote
:lmfao:

Indeed! Since it ballooned BEFORE he took office, why, it is so terribly logical to give him a complete pass on how much it has ballooned ever more AFTER he has taken office!
That's neither here nor there.  The charge I was talking about was blaming Obama for the balloning of the deficit (like topping 1 trillion mark), not for blaming him for further movement.  You really need to pay attention sometimes to what people are saying.

Quote
Quote
  Likewise, arguing that we should cut taxes and balance the budget is illogical, for obvious reasons.

Of course - anyone who would argue that we should cut taxes OR balance the budget, ever, must be illogical!
Please note that I used "and".  As a programmer, I hope you are aware of the logical difference between "and" and "or".  In the current climate, someone who argues simulatenously for tax cuts and balancing the budget is not being logical, becuase it is obviously an impossible task.  Again, can you please try reading the words before having the righteous fits of hysteria?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 02:17:58 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 02:05:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:45:36 PM
Actually, what you said was that I:

"feign objectivity in order to elevate their own opinions" which is accusing my of faking objectivity, ie lying about my positions.

Which is simply a lie, as you well know.
Unlike you, I do not equate objectivity with partisanship or one's stand on positions.

Actually, that is precisely what you do - you have already told me I am not objective, and in fact I 'Feign objectivity", ie lie about my positions just to appear objective.

And in fact, your examples of NOT being objective are exclusively limited to those dastardly republicans, who have "cornered the market" on illogical thinking.

Which has been my point all along - the humoyur of YOU of all people complaining about tribalism, when you are a case study in the tribes inability to accept anyones position other than their own as haveing even the potential for merit.

Quote
If you support your positions with illogical arguments, you're probably not being objective,

If one supports their position with illogical arguments, then they are being illogical - that says nothing about their objectivity. One can be objective and illogical at the same time.

Of course, your definition of "illogical" is "does not agree with me", but that is because of your tribalism.
Quote
and instead coming to conclusion first and then covering it up with reasoning.

Or they could just be wrong. Or mistaken. Or *you* could be wrong, and in fact they are not being "illogical" at all.

It is possible you know - you aren't always right.
Quote
Quote
:lmfao:

Indeed! Since it ballooned BEFORE he took office, why, it is so terribly logical to give him a complete pass on how much it has ballooned ever more AFTER he has taken office!
That's neither here nor there.  The charge I was talking about was blaming Obama for the balloning of the deficit (like topping 1 trillion mark), not for blaming him for further movement.  You really need to pay attention sometimes to what people are saying.

I did, and hence the laughing my ass off at your claim that "blaming Obama for the ballooning deficit" is "illogical". It is such a *perfect* example of your definition of "logic".
Quote
Quote
Quote
  Likewise, arguing that we should cut taxes and balance the budget is illogical, for obvious reasons.

Of course - anyone who would argue that we should cut taxes OR balance the budget, ever, must be illogical!
Please note that I used "and".  As a programmer, I hope you are aware of the logical difference between "and" and "or".

Indeed, because one could not possibly cut taxes and balance the budget...why that would involve cutting spending! And we all know how self evidently ridiculous that is!

Quote
  In the current climate, someone who argues simulatenously for tax cuts and balancing the budget is not being logical, becuase it is obviously an impossible task.

It isn't a binary argument - one can certainly argue that we should cut taxes and balance the budget, or at least try to come closer to doing that. Only someone being deliberately obtuse would insist that they must be arguing that we should actually achieve both of those things, or not bother even trying.

Indeed, this is a classic example of casting an opposing viewpoint into some extreme position so you don't have to actually think too much about it, and can simply dismiss it as "illogical". Classic tribalism. You show all the traits.

Quote
Again, can you please try reading the words before having the righteous fits of hysteria?

Sorry, but your caricature is just too perfect to be real. I suspect you might be pulling my leg at this point.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 02:41:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 02:17:58 PM
Actually, that is precisely what you do - you have already told me I am not objective, and in fact I 'Feign objectivity", ie lie about my positions just to appear objective.
The fallacy is implied in your "ie".  You don't feign your objectivity by lying about your positions, you feign it by pounding your chest and saying "I'm objective".
Quote
I did, and hence the laughing my ass off at your claim that "blaming Obama for the ballooning deficit" is "illogical". It is such a *perfect* example of your definition of "logic".
I don't know what to say to that.  Attributing something that literally happened under Bush to Obama does seem illogical.  It's drawing a conclusion that's contrary to undisputed facts.  I wasn't aware that my definition of illogical is so special in that way.
Quote
Indeed, because one could not possibly cut taxes and balance the budget...why that would involve cutting spending! And we all know how self evidently ridiculous that is!
Exactly.  A cursory glance at the budget will show even to a layman that there isn't enough spending there to be cut to cover a deficit of well over a trillion as well as the tax cuts, mathematically speaking. 

Speaking of "cutting spending", that's another good example of something said without thinking things through by partisans, and parroted by some people who fancy themselves being objective.  It's related to another one of those idiocies that became part of conventional wisdom, that the deficits are due to lack of control over discretionary spending.  Of course, factually speaking, they're due to fall in tax revenues due to recession, as well as growth in mandatory spending.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: grumbler on February 04, 2010, 02:48:11 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 09:00:40 AM
Oh yes, you know me, just regurgitating Republican talking points, like being pro-choice, in favor of gay marriage, etc., etc.

You think anyone who does not slavishly wear their purple headband at all times MUST therefore really have a secret hidden green one that they are truly allied to.

*You* however, suffer from no such illusions - you talk, argue, vote, and think straitline party doctrine. And in fact anyone who does not is "stupid and unsophisticated" because of course if they were not, they would have a nice purple headband, like all smart and sophisticated Drazi do.

I think being objective is being objective. Your anger towards towards those who are objective says everything that needs to be said about your own inability to handle a little objectivity. Which is fine - most people are like that after all - but what is hilarious is listening to you then whine about tribalism in the very same post that you exhibit the worst traits of it.

What is especially interesting is how willing you are to simply blatantly lie in order to further your crusade against the heresy of not choosing a color. You have certainly been around long enough to notice that I end up on the Democratic side of plenty of debates (global warming, most social issues, even health care at times) - yet are perfectly willing to make comments like "he debates like a Republican" or "uncritically recites republican talking points" when you know that is simply not true. I thought you were all about integrity and being honest? What happened to that?
I don't know why you bother.  DGuller certainly isn't going to be convinced, and nobody else needs to be.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: garbon on February 04, 2010, 03:06:49 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 04, 2010, 02:48:11 PM
I don't know why you bother.  DGuller certainly isn't going to be convinced, and nobody else needs to be.

Word.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 03:50:40 PM
Indeed.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: katmai on February 04, 2010, 07:03:32 PM
Yeah it's a well know fact Berkie drinks from the well of GOP.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 07:06:15 PM
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2010, 07:03:32 PM
Yeah it's a well know fact Berkie drinks from the well of GOP.
I think he always wants to vote Republican because he's generally simpatico on the economic stuff and the foreign policy.  But then, every single time, they're either incompetent (Bush), stupid (McCain picking Palin) or just place so much emphasis on the one third of that Reaganite conservative stool that he can't support them.  It's sad really :(
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Razgovory on February 04, 2010, 07:07:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 04, 2010, 01:27:07 PM


Which is why my position is based on the issues, rather than the parties. This is called "objectivity", Purple.

Does that make you an objectivist?
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: Ed Anger on February 04, 2010, 07:13:35 PM
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2010, 07:03:32 PM
Yeah it's a well know fact Berkie drinks from the well of GOP.

The well water tastes like tears.
Title: Re: Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist'
Post by: grumbler on February 04, 2010, 07:20:16 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 04, 2010, 07:13:35 PM
Quote from: katmai on February 04, 2010, 07:03:32 PM
Yeah it's a well know fact Berkie drinks from the well of GOP.

The well water tastes like tears.
:lol:  There's always someone who can be counted on to rub it in!