Bishop Pieronek, one of the most prominent Polish catholic church personalities, has given an interview to an Italian newspaper. So far I have an article about it only in Polish but I expect it to make waves internationally. So here are just snippets from the interview - you heard it here first folks:
"Shoah is a Jewish invention, you could just as well say similar things about and commemorate numerous victims of communism, persecuted catholics and christians."
"However, Jews have good PR, because they have immense financial means, great power and unconditional support of the US, which leads to a certain arrogance, that I consider unbearable."
"Memory of Holocaust is instrumentally exploited as a propaganda tool to get unwarranted benefits."
"I repeat, from a historical perspective it is not true that only Jews days in death camps, but this is completely ignored today."
"Palestinians are victims of injustice at the hands of Israelis."
"Palestinians are being treated like animals and their rights are violated. But this is not being talked about, because of international lobby groups. They should make a day to commemorate them as well. Of course all of this does not deny the shame of concentration camps and aberrations of nazism."
"Information about alleged Polish antisemitism are spread by people who do not know history."
For the record this is a guy considered to be a "liberal" part of the church (the "conservative" part thinks the EU is run by Jews and freemasons).
I just wanted to post it for the sake of all the idiots who think I am prejudiced against catholics.
:lol:
Speaking of freemasons, I think they are actually a pretty good example of how ignorant people can't comprehend what they see.
Most notably the fact that several of the Founding Fathers were (allegedly) freemasons, the plebs scream "omg conspiracy!" whereas in fact it is probably much simpler: the freemasons were a quite modern organization in terms of their various views including religions. It is no wonder that bright people with desires for reform seeked like-minded company and they found it among the masons.
It is probably the eqvuivalent of seeking conspiracy within wargaming clubs and the like nowadays.
Quote"I repeat, from a historical perspective it is not true that only Jews days in death camps, but this is completely ignored today."
The only point that he makes that has some validity.
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 04:13:10 AM
"Palestinians are being treated like animals and their rights are violated.
What I want to know is why is it that when I searched for "Israel Humane Society" my google-wiki suggestion was "Christopher Hitchens".
hmm.. Maybe the Israelis are treating the Palestinians worse than animals... Most definitively so if they are sicking Hitchens on them.
Quote from: Syt on January 25, 2010, 04:44:24 AM
Quote"I repeat, from a historical perspective it is not true that only Jews days in death camps, but this is completely ignored today."
The only point that he makes that has some validity.
He is now saying that his words were manipulated and that was the only point he was making throughout the article, but the journalist took it out of context with his other quotes.
Still, I'm waiting for the shitstorm. :cool:
In the meantime, our nazi party has a pretty good chance of finishing 2nd in the parlaimentary elections this April. :huh:
Quote from: Tamas on January 25, 2010, 05:21:06 AM
In the meantime, our nazi party has a pretty good chance of finishing 2nd in the parlaimentary elections this April. :huh:
What's that in %?
Quote from: Tamas on January 25, 2010, 04:34:04 AM
:lol:
Speaking of freemasons, I think they are actually a pretty good example of how ignorant people can't comprehend what they see.
Most notably the fact that several of the Founding Fathers were (allegedly) freemasons, the plebs scream "omg conspiracy!" whereas in fact it is probably much simpler: the freemasons were a quite modern organization in terms of their various views including religions. It is no wonder that bright people with desires for reform seeked like-minded company and they found it among the masons.
It is probably the eqvuivalent of seeking conspiracy within wargaming clubs and the like nowadays.
Bilderberg.
That stuff is just :bleeding:
My conspiracy theorist friend is always going on about it to me; 'Obama was there, Brown was there. Its all the powerful people in the world. If you're a member of the secret society they'll make you powerful'
'err....I think its the other way around, if you're powerful you get to go to the meeting...'
'NOOO! Its a conspiracy! You're stupid! They're all powerful because they're members!'
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 04:13:10 AM
I just wanted to post it for the sake of all the idiots who think I am prejudiced against catholics.
How does this disabuse us of this notion?
Marty, that's par for the course with bishops these days.
For example, one of our bishops, fresh from Rome, declared this merely hours after Haiti's earthquake
"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".
Quote
"Existen males mayores que los que esos pobres de Haití están sufriendo estos días", sentenció monseñor Munilla. "Quizás es un mal más grande el que nosotros estamos padeciendo que el que esos inocentes también están sufriendo (...) También deberíamos llorar por nosotros, por nuestra pobre situación espiritual, por nuestra concepción materialista de vida".
And the worse part is, he apparently couldn't understand why so many persons found his attitude and his comparison offensive!
The least that can be said IMHO is, a charitable man, a true Christian, would have thought only of how to aid the Haitians. Instead of that our good bishop immediately tried to spin the news for his own ends. Oh, alas for poor Europeans, shaken by such a terrible spiritual earthquake.... And Haiti? Who gives a damn about 100,000 deaths? God will know His own, as another bishop said in a famous and bloody occasion...
Quote from: Alatriste on January 25, 2010, 06:11:18 AM
"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".
I see nothing wrong with this.
Quote from: syk on January 25, 2010, 05:53:21 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 25, 2010, 05:21:06 AM
In the meantime, our nazi party has a pretty good chance of finishing 2nd in the parlaimentary elections this April. :huh:
What's that in %?
about 15% or so. they are on par with the currently governing socialists.
edit: the sure winners are the moderate-right-populists
Shoah is a Jewish invention? Well, duh! Next, Marti will have a thread complaining about a Warsaw politician claiming that mazel tov is a Jewish invention, too. Then, a Lodz plumber will not the same of shalom, and Marti will post to tell us he is awaiting the shitstorm on that one. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Syt on January 25, 2010, 04:44:24 AM
Quote"I repeat, from a historical perspective it is not true that only Jews days in death camps, but this is completely ignored today."
The only point that he makes that has some validity.
Does it? People mention that all the time. Maybe it doesn't get as much coverage as he would like but anybody who is interested in the Holocaust at all knows that. It is hardly "completely ignored" it is rather "not ignored at all" except by those who are too lazy to care that much about the Holocaust.
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 04:13:10 AM
"Palestinians are victims of injustice at the hands of Israelis."
"Palestinians are being treated like animals and their rights are violated. But this is not being talked about, because of international lobby groups."
And only the Israelis. Best to blame the Jews and ignore unfortunate facts like how Egypt walls Gaza off and throws away the key...
Quote from: Razgovory on January 25, 2010, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on January 25, 2010, 06:11:18 AM
"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".
I see nothing wrong with this.
Personally, I'll take the materialistic conception of life over the earthquake any day. Even with poor spiritual situation flavoring added. And the Bible agrees, The Four Riders are War, Famine, Disease, and Death, not Laicism, Tolerance, Science and Atheism
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 08:49:26 AM
Does it? People mention that all the time. Maybe it doesn't get as much coverage as he would like but anybody who is interested in the Holocaust at all knows that. It is hardly "completely ignored" it is rather "not ignored at all" except by those who are too lazy to care that much about the Holocaust.
Correct. The only reason to argue that every victim of the Holocaust except the Jews is ignored is because one is Polish, or is not Polish and still is an anti-Semite. It is true that the visibility of the Jews killed in the holocaust is greater than that of, say, the gypsies, but that is unsurprising given the higher visibility of Jews as compared to the gypsies. In fact, I would argue that the visibility of gypsy victims of the Holocaust is higher among Jews than among non-Jews.
Has there ever been a Pole who wasn't retarded? Maybe once, but they all fled the country or were killed before the country got Russianized. I think it's safe to say there isn't someone even halfway intelligent within the borders of modern Poland.
Quote from: Alatriste on January 25, 2010, 08:52:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 25, 2010, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on January 25, 2010, 06:11:18 AM
"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".
I see nothing wrong with this.
Personally, I'll take the materialistic conception of life over the earthquake any day. Even with poor spiritual situation flavoring added. And the Bible agrees, The Four Riders are War, Famine, Disease, and Death, not Laicism, Tolerance, Science and Atheism
This is an acceptable since you don't believe in it. However if you do believe then it would make sense that an earth quake is paltry compared to an eternity of damnation.
You're not prejudiced against anyone, you're just an idiot.
Why are so many great Poles born in a country that's populated mainly with Martinus' idiot clones?
This seems typical of ethnic attitudes of attitudes still in force in Eastern Europe, and demonstrates that many of the pressures present in the past still exist today.
Many an ethnic group considers *itself* hard done by, that its sufferings have not been sufficiently acknowledged, and that those of the Jews have been unfairly highlighted; and that the behaviour of "the Jews" in Israel is no better than, or in fact worse than, their own past behaviour during WW2 etc.
Some of these points do indeed have a certain validity. The sufferings of the Poles in particular during WW2 and under the Communists were severe, and Hitler had plans for them quite comparable to those of the Jews (though obviously not as fully realized!). There is indeed an ethnic conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, which is sorta reminiscent of those back home in eastern Europe.
What differs is the scale and intensity. Fact is, there are hardly any Jews left in Poland any more; most were exterminated by the Germans, and those few who were not, were mostly driven out by a population highly hostile to them *after* the war (this was not a unique accomplishment, as the same fate befell "ethnic" Germans, Ukranians and many others in Eastern Europe - and Poles in Ukraine, etc). The Poles, while they undeniably suffered horribly under the Nazis (and would in all likelihood have been "next" had the Nazis won) are still there; it is not the fact of suffering that makes the fate of the Jews remarkable, it is the thoroughness of it - the fact that the Nazis more or less succeeded in their extermination campaign. The Nazis were using the Jews as their 'test case'.
If the Israelis behaved like 20th century eastern Europeans towards the Palestinians, there would be hardly any of them left - they would have been killed or driven out.
The only good Pole is a dead Pole.
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 25, 2010, 10:37:38 AM
The only good Pole is a dead Pole.
Or a Pole dancer. :perv:
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 08:49:26 AM
Does it? People mention that all the time. Maybe it doesn't get as much coverage as he would like but anybody who is interested in the Holocaust at all knows that. It is hardly "completely ignored" it is rather "not ignored at all" except by those who are too lazy to care that much about the Holocaust.
In German public discourse (i.e. mainstream media) you mainly hear about the Jews in concentration camps, to lesser extent of the
gypsies Roma and Sinti and barely about socialists, homosexuals and the rest.
Quote from: Syt on January 25, 2010, 11:04:55 AM
In German public discourse (i.e. mainstream media) you mainly hear about the Jews in concentration camps, to lesser extent of the gypsies Roma and Sinti and barely about socialists, homosexuals and the rest.
Strange...any story of the concentration camps usualy mentions they were used first for political opponents like Socialists and Liberals but at first they were run by SA which usually humiliated and bullied rather than massacred.
Quote from: Syt on January 25, 2010, 11:04:55 AM
In German public discourse (i.e. mainstream media) you mainly hear about the Jews in concentration camps, to lesser extent of the gypsies Roma and Sinti and barely about socialists, homosexuals and the rest.
There's a small monument in front of the Reichstag for all the assorted flavours of communist persecuted by the Nazis. It looks suspiciously like a bicycle rack.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 11:07:59 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 25, 2010, 11:04:55 AM
In German public discourse (i.e. mainstream media) you mainly hear about the Jews in concentration camps, to lesser extent of the gypsies Roma and Sinti and barely about socialists, homosexuals and the rest.
Strange...any story of the concentration camps usualy mentions they were used first for political opponents like Socialists and Liberals but at first they were run by SA which usually humiliated and bullied rather than massacred.
My understanding is that the actual *extermination* technology was first used on the insane and others considered "defective" by the regime.
With the Jews and other ethnic "enemies", the original Nazi notion appears to have been "deportation" to some faraway place, where they could be put to work as slaves (with how much sincerety it is hard now to know). Inevitably or not, "deportation" came to mean, in practice, killing or death through labour.
The death camps were thus the convergance of three seperate programs: the "concentration camp" system, used for political-type prisioners; the death machinery used for "defectives"; and the ethnic "deportation" and slave-labour system.
It is notable that the Nazis used the exact same "deportation" language vis. the Slavs, and in particular the Poles, whose lands they particularly coveted. The implication is that the same basic program was in store for them, once circumstances permitted.
Quote from: Malthus on January 25, 2010, 11:20:12 AM
My understanding is that the actual *extermination* technology was first used on the insane and others considered "defective" by the regime.
True but Syt mentioned 'Concentration Camps' specifically...which were of course first used by the Germans for hostages and forced laborers taken from occupied France and Belgium during WWI and invented by the British during the Boer War.
You are correct in that the first instances of extermination started with "defective" children in Germany and resulted in a public relations disaster for the regime. It was alot easier to do the exterminating part while the public was too busy dying in a war to protest too much.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 08:49:26 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 25, 2010, 04:44:24 AM
Quote"I repeat, from a historical perspective it is not true that only Jews days in death camps, but this is completely ignored today."
The only point that he makes that has some validity.
Does it? People mention that all the time. Maybe it doesn't get as much coverage as he would like but anybody who is interested in the Holocaust at all knows that. It is hardly "completely ignored" it is rather "not ignored at all" except by those who are too lazy to care that much about the Holocaust.
Gay rights group were not allowed to participate in the previous official Auschwitz liberation celebrations. Ironically, this bishop probably wasn't talking about gays being killed in Auschwitz either.
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 11:24:17 AM
Gay rights group were not allowed to participate in the previous official Auschwitz liberation celebrations. Ironically, this bishop probably wasn't talking about gays being killed in Auschwitz either.
When I was in the Holocaust museum in Washington DC there was a big thing about the extermination of Homosexuals including, of course, they unusual tolerance during the Weimar era for Lesbianism in particular and then they sudden 180 once the the depression really got going leading to the death camps. I do not recall if it was both gays and lesbians who were killed or just the gays. The Germans seem to have had a bigger problem with male homosexuality.
Here's an article about the monument in Berlin:
QuoteMonument to Homosexual Holocaust Victims Opens in Berlin
The controversy over the monument to homosexual Holocaust victims has dragged on for years. On Tuesday, however, it is finally being unveiled in Berlin. Still, not all disagreements have been set aside.
After years of controversy, a monument to homosexual victims of the Holocaust is finally opening in Berlin.
Germany's federal commissioner for culture, Bernd Neumann, is to formally open the monument Tuesday together with Berlin Mayor Klaus Wowereit. The monument consists of a single stele or pillar, 3.6 meters (11.8 feet) high and 1.90 meters (6.2 feet) wide, located in Berlin's central Tiergarten park opposite the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe.
According to the monument's designers, the Berlin-based Norwegian-Danish artist duo Ingar Dragset and Michael Elmgreen, the new monument refers to the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, which consists of 2,711 concrete stelae, while simultaneously representing a different history of persecution. "We wanted to use the same visual language (as the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe) in order to make the connection between our monument and other victim groups," Dragset told the Berlin magazine Zitty in an interview. "It was the same suffering, the same history, but at the same time there were many differences."
A video screen set into the monument shows a one-and-a-half minute film loop of two men kissing. Visitors can watch the film, directed by the Danish director Thomas Vinterberg who is best known for his acclaimed 1998 drama "The Celebration," through a small window in the pillar. The film will be changed every two years, with the monument showing homosexuality-themed films by different directors.
A plaque on the monument explains the history of the Nazi persecution of homosexuals and draws the visitor's attention to the current persecution of homosexuals in many countries. "In many parts of the world people are still persecuted because of their sexual identity, homosexual love is a criminal offense and a kiss can spell danger," the text reads.
The German government commissioned the monument, which cost €600,000 ($950,000) to build, in 2003. Right from the start, the monument, which was an initiative of the Lesbian and Gay Federation in Germany (LSVD), attracted controversy. Some critics, warning of "monument inflation," questioned the need for a separate monument for gay victims of the Holocaust, while lesbian groups criticized the focus on male homosexual victims. In response to their concerns, the monument is likely to show a film featuring lesbians in the future.
Even the opening of the monument attracted controversy. Dragset and Elmgreen told Zitty that Neumann, the federal commissioner for culture, refused to allow an image from the video of the two men kissing to be put on the official invitation to the monument's opening. "(The decision) not to print the kiss shows that we still have a problem," Dragset said. "As long as people feel repulsed when they see homosexuals kissing, then something is missing," added Elmgreen, who called the kiss "the basis of the monument."
Observers have also been critical of the fact that the highest representative of the German government attending the opening will be the federal commissioner for culture. Germany's President Horst Köhler, who was present at the opening of the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, will not be attending.
According to estimates, more than 50,000 homosexuals were arrested by the Nazis. It is not known how many were murdered in concentration camps, but estimates put the figure at several thousand at least. Gay rights activists have long complained that the persecution of homosexuals during the Third Reich has been overlooked. The Nazi-era law persecuting homosexuals remained on Germany's books until 1969.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 11:27:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 11:24:17 AM
Gay rights group were not allowed to participate in the previous official Auschwitz liberation celebrations. Ironically, this bishop probably wasn't talking about gays being killed in Auschwitz either.
When I was in the Holocaust museum in Washington DC there was a big thing about the extermination of Homosexuals including, of course, they unusual tolerance during the Weimar era for Lesbianism in particular and then they sudden 180 once the the depression really got going leading to the death camps. I do not recall if it was both gays and lesbians who were killed or just the gays. The Germans seem to have had a bigger problem with male homosexuality.
I think the focus on gays and lesbians is fairly recent, though.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 11:27:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 11:24:17 AM
Gay rights group were not allowed to participate in the previous official Auschwitz liberation celebrations. Ironically, this bishop probably wasn't talking about gays being killed in Auschwitz either.
When I was in the Holocaust museum in Washington DC there was a big thing about the extermination of Homosexuals including, of course, they unusual tolerance during the Weimar era for Lesbianism in particular and then they sudden 180 once the the depression really got going leading to the death camps. I do not recall if it was both gays and lesbians who were killed or just the gays. The Germans seem to have had a bigger problem with male homosexuality.
I suspect that different issues are raised in Europe by commemoration of Nazi persecution depending on the group persecuted. In eastern europe, I get the impression that the ethnic situation vis. the Roma in particular is still a major sore spot; and of course among the conservative right wing, homosexuality is still detested.
Eastern europeans may not like Jews any more now than they did then, but there is this - there simply are not very many Jews around to dislike.
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 11:31:32 AM
I think the focus on gays and lesbians is fairly recent, though.
I have no idea. I cannot recall ever learning about Holocaust without 'Homosexuals, Gypsies, sexual deviants, the mentally unsound' and so forth being listed off as the victims. But that was just the 80s.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 11:31:32 AM
I think the focus on gays and lesbians is fairly recent, though.
I have no idea. I cannot recall ever learning about Holocaust without 'Homosexuals, Gypsies, sexual deviants, the mentally unsound' and so forth being listed off as the victims. But that was just the 80s.
I'll confirm that as long as I've been aware of history, the fact that the holocaust included Roma, gays and others was always aknowledged. Though this may be more a NA fact - maybe it was different in Europe.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 11:31:32 AM
I think the focus on gays and lesbians is fairly recent, though.
I have no idea. I cannot recall ever learning about Holocaust without 'Homosexuals, Gypsies, sexual deviants, the mentally unsound' and so forth being listed off as the victims. But that was just the 80s.
We were taught that, too. But in public discussions of the Third Reich it doesn't factor in much.
I was disappointed. I hoped the bishop had said something bizarre.
Quote from: Tyr on January 25, 2010, 05:57:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 25, 2010, 04:34:04 AM
:lol:
Speaking of freemasons, I think they are actually a pretty good example of how ignorant people can't comprehend what they see.
Most notably the fact that several of the Founding Fathers were (allegedly) freemasons, the plebs scream "omg conspiracy!" whereas in fact it is probably much simpler: the freemasons were a quite modern organization in terms of their various views including religions. It is no wonder that bright people with desires for reform seeked like-minded company and they found it among the masons.
It is probably the eqvuivalent of seeking conspiracy within wargaming clubs and the like nowadays.
Bilderberg.
That stuff is just :bleeding:
My conspiracy theorist friend is always going on about it to me; 'Obama was there, Brown was there. Its all the powerful people in the world. If you're a member of the secret society they'll make you powerful'
'err....I think its the other way around, if you're powerful you get to go to the meeting...'
'NOOO! Its a conspiracy! You're stupid! They're all powerful because they're members!'
We aren't a secret society.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 11:27:14 AM
The Germans seem to have had a bigger problem with male homosexuality.
Who doesn't?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on January 25, 2010, 01:54:48 PM
Quote from: Tyr on January 25, 2010, 05:57:11 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 25, 2010, 04:34:04 AM
:lol:
Speaking of freemasons, I think they are actually a pretty good example of how ignorant people can't comprehend what they see.
Most notably the fact that several of the Founding Fathers were (allegedly) freemasons, the plebs scream "omg conspiracy!" whereas in fact it is probably much simpler: the freemasons were a quite modern organization in terms of their various views including religions. It is no wonder that bright people with desires for reform seeked like-minded company and they found it among the masons.
It is probably the eqvuivalent of seeking conspiracy within wargaming clubs and the like nowadays.
Bilderberg.
That stuff is just :bleeding:
My conspiracy theorist friend is always going on about it to me; 'Obama was there, Brown was there. Its all the powerful people in the world. If you're a member of the secret society they'll make you powerful'
'err....I think its the other way around, if you're powerful you get to go to the meeting...'
'NOOO! Its a conspiracy! You're stupid! They're all powerful because they're members!'
We aren't a secret society.
Of course that is what you would say. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Tamas on January 25, 2010, 02:13:17 PM
Who doesn't?
Straight men who are logical. More male gays and fewer female gays mean more females for you.
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 04:13:10 AM
"Shoah is a Jewish invention, you could just as well say similar things about and commemorate numerous victims of communism, persecuted catholics and christians."
I do have a hard time understanding the logic that the fact other people have been victims somehow means 6 million Jews weren't killed.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 25, 2010, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on January 25, 2010, 06:11:18 AM
"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".
I see nothing wrong with this.
Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 25, 2010, 07:52:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 25, 2010, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on January 25, 2010, 06:11:18 AM
"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".
I see nothing wrong with this.
Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.
Eh I think pointing the finger of judgement towards everybody for being poor spiritually is a strange sort of Christianity when Jesus said not to judge lest you be judged.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 08:07:01 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 25, 2010, 07:52:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 25, 2010, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on January 25, 2010, 06:11:18 AM
"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".
I see nothing wrong with this.
Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.
Eh I think pointing the finger of judgement towards everybody for being poor spiritually is a strange sort of Christianity when Jesus said not to judge lest you be judged.
Isn't he speaking of personal judgment in that passage? THe bishop isn't casting judgement on any particular person, he's speaking of our broad society, that's something that all the prophets and Jesus did.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 25, 2010, 08:13:50 PM
Isn't he speaking of personal judgment in that passage? THe bishop isn't casting judgement on any particular person, he's speaking of our broad society, that's something that all the prophets and Jesus did.
Well let me just say if he thinks the world today is not religious enough he is never going to be happy. Religion is all the rage.
It sounds like to me he is just lashing out because he is a self loathing Catholic who loves shame and guilt...which is pretty much the essence of not judging or you will be judged yourself and why judging is a spiritual dead end.
"We need to stop with this reaching out to the people of Haiti stuff and not get distracted from what religion is all about: hating ourselves and wallowing in guilt and self-pity for how much we suck. That will bring us closer to God and stuff."
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 25, 2010, 07:52:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 25, 2010, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on January 25, 2010, 06:11:18 AM
"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".
I see nothing wrong with this.
Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.
It may be theologically sound, but it comes across as
awfully self-absorbed and hard-hearted towards others. "you guys may have families crushed under tons of concrete, but
our materialistic spiritual sufferings are worse. Woe is us!"
How can that not inspire anything but a sarcastic response, as in "I'll take the first world status and the lack of crushed families, gimmie somma that spiritual suffering"?
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 07:40:55 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 25, 2010, 02:13:17 PM
Who doesn't?
Straight men who are logical. More male gays and fewer female gays mean more females for you.
Except not, as more male gays means the inevitable decline of civilization, which means fewer females and other creature comforts for you.
Quote from: Malthus on January 25, 2010, 08:27:11 PM
How can that not inspire anything but a sarcastic response, as in "I'll take the first world status and the lack of crushed families, gimmie somma that spiritual suffering"?
The key is not to care what they think, and not give them a choice.
Quote from: Malthus on January 25, 2010, 08:27:11 PM
It may be theologically sound, but it comes across as awfully self-absorbed and hard-hearted towards others. "you guys may have families crushed under tons of concrete, but our materialistic spiritual sufferings are worse. Woe is us!"
How can that not inspire anything but a sarcastic response, as in "I'll take the first world status and the lack of crushed families, gimmie somma that spiritual suffering"?
Funny that you mention theology, because bishop Munilla's words have created quite a stir amongst theologians. Munilla says his words have been manipulated, etc, etc. According to him, he was just speaking Theology, answering a question made to him by some members of his flock, the old question 'why does God allow so many innocents to suffer and die in an earthquake'?
His answer? In short,
God has allowed this to make us see the truth and abandon our hedonistic, materialistic ways (and perhaps he chose Haiti because, well, everyone knows in the Caribbean sin is awfully common). Sure, many thousands of innocents have perished, but our situation is worse, so God was right in allowing the earthquake! After all, if the victims were innocent, they are in Heaven now...
No, I'm not joking (but I have to wonder if some petty miracle like two armies of horsemen battling in the sky or a small, harmless rain of blood wouldn't have accomplished the mission without the trouble of spending millions of years in advance accumulating stress in a fault).
Quoting passages from his words (sadly, no site seems to have them complete) "in this day that commemorates Saint Sebastian's martyrdom' 'we should remember the martyrdom of so many third world peoples, amongst them noticeably Haiti'... 'the suffering Christ is shedding his tears in Haiti'... blah, blah, blah... "in Haiti catastrophe is enclosed a call to wake up from our moral and spiritual lethargy, from our tepidness and mediocrity, and from a egotistic life"... "I wish that where sin once reigned" "could reign supreme the grace of social justice and true Christian charity'.... after that came the passage I quoted originally, and then the bishop ended remembering that 'the pain those innocents suffer is not the last word, because God has promised them eternal happiness'.
Links (in Spanish)
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/01/16/espana/1263664548.html
http://www.deia.com/2010/01/20/sociedad/euskadi/munilla-haiti-es-una-llamada-a-despertar-de-nuestro-letargo-moral-
http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/607057/0/
http://es.noticias.yahoo.com/9/20100120/tso-munilla-dice-que-haiti-es-una-llamad-5bc9ac5.html
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 08:17:00 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 25, 2010, 08:13:50 PM
Isn't he speaking of personal judgment in that passage? THe bishop isn't casting judgement on any particular person, he's speaking of our broad society, that's something that all the prophets and Jesus did.
Well let me just say if he thinks the world today is not religious enough he is never going to be happy. Religion is all the rage.
It sounds like to me he is just lashing out because he is a self loathing Catholic who loves shame and guilt...which is pretty much the essence of not judging or you will be judged yourself and why judging is a spiritual dead end.
"We need to stop with this reaching out to the people of Haiti stuff and not get distracted from what religion is all about: hating ourselves and wallowing in guilt and self-pity for how much we suck. That will bring us closer to God and stuff."
You must read things differently then the rest of us.
Quote from: Valmy on January 25, 2010, 08:07:01 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 25, 2010, 07:52:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 25, 2010, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on January 25, 2010, 06:11:18 AM
"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".
I see nothing wrong with this.
Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.
Eh I think pointing the finger of judgement towards everybody for being poor spiritually is a strange sort of Christianity when Jesus said not to judge lest you be judged.
Plus it comes across as particularly callous and shitty to try and make that points while thousands of people are dying in Haiti. I guess Christians have a problem with Christian charity.
Quote from: Martinus on January 26, 2010, 03:20:04 AM
Plus it comes across as particularly callous and shitty to try and make that points while thousands of people are dying in Haiti. I guess Christians have a problem with Christian charity.
:yes: Christians are to charity as Polacks are to intelligence.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 26, 2010, 03:19:00 AM
You must read things differently then the rest of us.
Raz speaks for everybody now? Please enlighten me how the 'rest of us' think saying 'self pity > helping Haiti' reads?
Quote from: Valmy on January 26, 2010, 09:18:10 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 26, 2010, 03:19:00 AM
You must read things differently then the rest of us.
Raz speaks for everybody now? Please enlighten me how the 'rest of us' think saying 'self pity > helping Haiti' reads?
I didn't see self pity quoted anywhere.
Quote from: Malthus on January 25, 2010, 10:29:07 AM
What differs is the scale and intensity. (...) it is not the fact of suffering that makes the fate of the Jews remarkable, it is the thoroughness of it - the fact that the Nazis more or less succeeded in their extermination campaign. The Nazis were using the Jews as their 'test case'.
Which just shows how incredibly stupid the Nazis were.
Everybody knows that, if you want to get rid of a population, just isolate the area, remove their food and cut off all outside food sources. The problem population is gone in a few months.
You can even choose when to stop and appear as a saviour (if you feel like it).
Quote from: Razgovory on January 26, 2010, 09:23:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 26, 2010, 09:18:10 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 26, 2010, 03:19:00 AM
You must read things differently then the rest of us.
Raz speaks for everybody now? Please enlighten me how the 'rest of us' think saying 'self pity > helping Haiti' reads?
I didn't see self pity quoted anywhere.
QuoteWe should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life
Shed tears for my own failures isn't self pity anymore? Sure that is a far higher spiritual priority than helping others, to the point that we SHOULD do that instead of helping them.
How do the 'rest of us' define self pity?
Sort of hard to 'love your neighbor as yourself' when you hate yourself isn't it?
Quote from: Valmy on January 26, 2010, 09:18:10 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 26, 2010, 03:19:00 AM
You must read things differently then the rest of us.
Raz speaks for everybody now?
Well, to give him justice, he probably speaks for more personas than all of us combined.
Quote from: Martinus on January 25, 2010, 04:13:10 AM
I just wanted to post it for the sake of all the idiots who think I am prejudiced against catholics.
I'm biased against Poles :)
Quote from: Tyr on January 25, 2010, 05:57:11 AM
My conspiracy theorist friend is always going on about it to me; 'Obama was there, Brown was there. Its all the powerful people in the world. If you're a member of the secret society they'll make you powerful'
I think that Brown was there undermines the idea that it's the most powerful people :(
Edit: Having said that if they'd invited Mandy....
Quote from: Valmy on January 26, 2010, 09:34:43 AM
Sort of hard to 'love your neighbor as yourself' when you hate yourself isn't it?
Self hate? I don't know... Sure, Catholicism is strong in guilt, but there can be few feelings so narcissist as being tormented by guilt.
Ok, here's for the Worst. Excuse. Ever.
He is now backtracking, saying his words were manipulated and what he really meant is that the word "shoah" is a Jewish invention, since it is in Hebrew. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on January 27, 2010, 07:31:09 AM
Ok, here's for the Worst. Excuse. Ever.
He is now backtracking, saying his words were manipulated and what he really meant is that the word "shoah" is a Jewish invention, since it is in Hebrew. :lol:
I beat him to that by days. :smarty:
Quote from: Martinus on January 27, 2010, 07:31:09 AM
the word "shoah" is a Jewish invention, since it is in Hebrew. :lol:
Glad to see the study of linguistics entering public discourse.