Prominent Polish bishop: Shoah is a Jewish invention

[Martinus]

Here's an article about the monument in Berlin:

Monument to Homosexual Holocaust Victims Opens in Berlin

The controversy over the monument to homosexual Holocaust victims has dragged on for years. On Tuesday, however, it is finally being unveiled in Berlin. Still, not all disagreements have been set aside.

After years of controversy, a monument to homosexual victims of the Holocaust is finally opening in Berlin.

Germany's federal commissioner for culture, Bernd Neumann, is to formally open the monument Tuesday together with Berlin Mayor Klaus Wowereit. The monument consists of a single stele or pillar, 3.6 meters (11.8 feet) high and 1.90 meters (6.2 feet) wide, located in Berlin's central Tiergarten park opposite the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe.

According to the monument's designers, the Berlin-based Norwegian-Danish artist duo Ingar Dragset and Michael Elmgreen, the new monument refers to the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, which consists of 2,711 concrete stelae, while simultaneously representing a different history of persecution. "We wanted to use the same visual language (as the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe) in order to make the connection between our monument and other victim groups," Dragset told the Berlin magazine Zitty in an interview. "It was the same suffering, the same history, but at the same time there were many differences."

A video screen set into the monument shows a one-and-a-half minute film loop of two men kissing. Visitors can watch the film, directed by the Danish director Thomas Vinterberg who is best known for his acclaimed 1998 drama "The Celebration," through a small window in the pillar. The film will be changed every two years, with the monument showing homosexuality-themed films by different directors.

A plaque on the monument explains the history of the Nazi persecution of homosexuals and draws the visitor's attention to the current persecution of homosexuals in many countries. "In many parts of the world people are still persecuted because of their sexual identity, homosexual love is a criminal offense and a kiss can spell danger," the text reads.

The German government commissioned the monument, which cost €600,000 ($950,000) to build, in 2003. Right from the start, the monument, which was an initiative of the Lesbian and Gay Federation in Germany (LSVD), attracted controversy. Some critics, warning of "monument inflation," questioned the need for a separate monument for gay victims of the Holocaust, while lesbian groups criticized the focus on male homosexual victims. In response to their concerns, the monument is likely to show a film featuring lesbians in the future.

Even the opening of the monument attracted controversy. Dragset and Elmgreen told Zitty that Neumann, the federal commissioner for culture, refused to allow an image from the video of the two men kissing to be put on the official invitation to the monument's opening. "(The decision) not to print the kiss shows that we still have a problem," Dragset said. "As long as people feel repulsed when they see homosexuals kissing, then something is missing," added Elmgreen, who called the kiss "the basis of the monument."

Observers have also been critical of the fact that the highest representative of the German government attending the opening will be the federal commissioner for culture. Germany's President Horst Köhler, who was present at the opening of the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, will not be attending.

According to estimates, more than 50,000 homosexuals were arrested by the Nazis. It is not known how many were murdered in concentration camps, but estimates put the figure at several thousand at least. Gay rights activists have long complained that the persecution of homosexuals during the Third Reich has been overlooked. The Nazi-era law persecuting homosexuals remained on Germany's books until 1969.

[Martinus]

Gay rights group were not allowed to participate in the previous official Auschwitz liberation celebrations. Ironically, this bishop probably wasn't talking about gays being killed in Auschwitz either.

When I was in the Holocaust museum in Washington DC there was a big thing about the extermination of Homosexuals including, of course, they unusual tolerance during the Weimar era for Lesbianism in particular and then they sudden 180 once the the depression really got going leading to the death camps.  I do not recall if it was both gays and lesbians who were killed or just the gays.  The Germans seem to have had a bigger problem with male homosexuality.

I think the focus on gays and lesbians is fairly recent, though.

[Malthus]

Gay rights group were not allowed to participate in the previous official Auschwitz liberation celebrations. Ironically, this bishop probably wasn't talking about gays being killed in Auschwitz either.

When I was in the Holocaust museum in Washington DC there was a big thing about the extermination of Homosexuals including, of course, they unusual tolerance during the Weimar era for Lesbianism in particular and then they sudden 180 once the the depression really got going leading to the death camps.  I do not recall if it was both gays and lesbians who were killed or just the gays.  The Germans seem to have had a bigger problem with male homosexuality.

I suspect that different issues are raised in Europe by commemoration of Nazi persecution depending on the group persecuted. In eastern europe, I get the impression that the ethnic situation vis. the Roma in particular is still a major sore spot; and of course among the conservative right wing, homosexuality is still detested.

Eastern europeans may not like Jews any more now than they did then, but there is this - there simply are not very many Jews around to dislike.

[Valmy]

I think the focus on gays and lesbians is fairly recent, though.

I have no idea.  I cannot recall ever learning about Holocaust without 'Homosexuals, Gypsies, sexual deviants, the mentally unsound' and so forth being listed off as the victims.  But that was just the 80s.

[Malthus]

I think the focus on gays and lesbians is fairly recent, though.

I have no idea.  I cannot recall ever learning about Holocaust without 'Homosexuals, Gypsies, sexual deviants, the mentally unsound' and so forth being listed off as the victims.  But that was just the 80s.

I'll confirm that as long as I've been aware of history, the fact that the holocaust included Roma, gays and others was always aknowledged. Though this may be more a NA fact - maybe it was different in Europe.

[Syt]

I think the focus on gays and lesbians is fairly recent, though.

I have no idea.  I cannot recall ever learning about Holocaust without 'Homosexuals, Gypsies, sexual deviants, the mentally unsound' and so forth being listed off as the victims.  But that was just the 80s.

We were taught that, too. But in public discussions of the Third Reich it doesn't factor in much.

[The Brain]

I was disappointed. I hoped the bishop had said something bizarre.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Speaking of freemasons, I think they are actually a pretty good example of how ignorant people can't comprehend what they see.
Most notably the fact that several of the Founding Fathers were (allegedly) freemasons, the plebs scream "omg conspiracy!" whereas in fact it is probably much simpler: the freemasons were a quite modern organization in terms of their various views including religions. It is no wonder that bright people with desires for reform seeked like-minded company and they found it among the masons.
It is probably the eqvuivalent of seeking conspiracy within wargaming clubs  and the like nowadays.

Bilderberg.
That stuff is just
My conspiracy theorist friend is always going on about it to me; 'Obama was there, Brown was there. Its all the powerful people in the world. If you're a member of the secret society they'll make you powerful'
'err....I think its the other way around, if you're powerful you get to go to the meeting...'
'NOOO! Its a conspiracy! You're stupid! They're all powerful because they're members!'

We aren't a secret society.

[Tamas]

The Germans seem to have had a bigger problem with male homosexuality.

Who doesn't?

[katmai]

Speaking of freemasons, I think they are actually a pretty good example of how ignorant people can't comprehend what they see.
Most notably the fact that several of the Founding Fathers were (allegedly) freemasons, the plebs scream "omg conspiracy!" whereas in fact it is probably much simpler: the freemasons were a quite modern organization in terms of their various views including religions. It is no wonder that bright people with desires for reform seeked like-minded company and they found it among the masons.
It is probably the eqvuivalent of seeking conspiracy within wargaming clubs  and the like nowadays.

Bilderberg.
That stuff is just
My conspiracy theorist friend is always going on about it to me; 'Obama was there, Brown was there. Its all the powerful people in the world. If you're a member of the secret society they'll make you powerful'
'err....I think its the other way around, if you're powerful you get to go to the meeting...'
'NOOO! Its a conspiracy! You're stupid! They're all powerful because they're members!'

We aren't a secret society.

Of course that is what you would say. 

[Valmy]

Who doesn't?

Straight men who are logical.  More male gays and fewer female gays mean more females for you.

[Valmy]

"Shoah is a Jewish invention, you could just as well say similar things about and commemorate numerous victims of communism, persecuted catholics and christians."

I do have a hard time understanding the logic that the fact other people have been victims somehow means 6 million Jews weren't killed.

[jimmy olsen]

"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".

I see nothing wrong with this.

Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.

[Valmy]

"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".

I see nothing wrong with this.

Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.

Eh I think pointing the finger of judgement towards everybody for being poor spiritually is a strange sort of Christianity when Jesus said not to judge lest you be judged.

[jimmy olsen]

"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".

I see nothing wrong with this.

Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.

Eh I think pointing the finger of judgement towards everybody for being poor spiritually is a strange sort of Christianity when Jesus said not to judge lest you be judged.

Isn't he speaking of personal judgment in that passage? THe bishop isn't casting judgement on any particular person, he's speaking of our broad society, that's something that all the prophets and Jesus did.