Prominent Polish bishop: Shoah is a Jewish invention

[Valmy]

Isn't he speaking of personal judgment in that passage? THe bishop isn't casting judgement on any particular person, he's speaking of our broad society, that's something that all the prophets and Jesus did.

Well let me just say if he thinks the world today is not religious enough he is never going to be happy.  Religion is all the rage.

It sounds like to me he is just lashing out because he is a self loathing Catholic who loves shame and guilt...which is pretty much the essence of not judging or you will be judged yourself and why judging is a spiritual dead end.

"We need to stop with this reaching out to the people of Haiti stuff and not get distracted from what religion is all about: hating ourselves and wallowing in guilt and self-pity for how much we suck.  That will bring us closer to God and stuff."

[Malthus]

"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".

I see nothing wrong with this.

Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.

It may be theologically sound, but it comes across as awfully self-absorbed and hard-hearted towards others. "you guys may have families crushed under tons of concrete, but our materialistic spiritual sufferings are worse. Woe is us!"

How can that not inspire anything but a sarcastic response, as in "I'll take the first world status and the lack of crushed families, gimmie somma that spiritual suffering"?

[Neil]

Who doesn't?

Straight men who are logical.  More male gays and fewer female gays mean more females for you.

Except not, as more male gays means the inevitable decline of civilization, which means fewer females and other creature comforts for you.

[Neil]

How can that not inspire anything but a sarcastic response, as in "I'll take the first world status and the lack of crushed families, gimmie somma that spiritual suffering"?

The key is not to care what they think, and not give them a choice.

[Alatriste]

It may be theologically sound, but it comes across as awfully self-absorbed and hard-hearted towards others. "you guys may have families crushed under tons of concrete, but our materialistic spiritual sufferings are worse. Woe is us!"

How can that not inspire anything but a sarcastic response, as in "I'll take the first world status and the lack of crushed families, gimmie somma that spiritual suffering"?

Funny that you mention theology, because bishop Munilla's words have created quite a stir amongst theologians. Munilla says his words have been manipulated, etc, etc. According to him, he was just speaking Theology, answering a question made to him by some members of his flock, the old question 'why does God allow so many innocents to suffer and die in an earthquake'?

His answer? In short, God has allowed this to make us see the truth and abandon our hedonistic, materialistic ways (and perhaps he chose Haiti because, well, everyone knows in the Caribbean sin is awfully common). Sure, many thousands of innocents have perished, but our situation is worse, so God was right in allowing the earthquake! After all, if the victims were innocent, they are in Heaven now...

No, I'm not joking (but I have to wonder if some petty miracle like two armies of horsemen battling in the sky or a small, harmless rain of blood wouldn't have accomplished the mission without the trouble of spending millions of years in advance accumulating stress in a fault).

Quoting passages from his words (sadly, no site seems to have them complete) "in this day that commemorates Saint Sebastian's martyrdom' 'we should remember the martyrdom of so many third world peoples, amongst them noticeably Haiti'... 'the suffering Christ is shedding his tears in Haiti'... blah, blah, blah... "in Haiti catastrophe is enclosed a call to wake up from our moral and spiritual lethargy, from our tepidness and mediocrity, and from a egotistic life"... "I wish that where sin once reigned" "could reign supreme the grace of social justice and true Christian charity'.... after that came the passage I quoted originally, and then the bishop ended remembering that 'the pain those innocents suffer is not the last word, because God has promised them eternal happiness'.

Links (in Spanish)

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/01/16/espana/1263664548.html

http://www.deia.com/2010/01/20/sociedad/euskadi/munilla-haiti-es-una-llamada-a-despertar-de-nuestro-letargo-moral-

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/607057/0/

http://es.noticias.yahoo.com/9/20100120/tso-munilla-dice-que-haiti-es-una-llamad-5bc9ac5.html

[Razgovory]

Isn't he speaking of personal judgment in that passage? THe bishop isn't casting judgement on any particular person, he's speaking of our broad society, that's something that all the prophets and Jesus did.

Well let me just say if he thinks the world today is not religious enough he is never going to be happy.  Religion is all the rage.

It sounds like to me he is just lashing out because he is a self loathing Catholic who loves shame and guilt...which is pretty much the essence of not judging or you will be judged yourself and why judging is a spiritual dead end.

"We need to stop with this reaching out to the people of Haiti stuff and not get distracted from what religion is all about: hating ourselves and wallowing in guilt and self-pity for how much we suck.  That will bring us closer to God and stuff."

You must read things differently then the rest of us.

[Martinus]

"There are bigger evils than those suffered by poor Haitians these days... the ones we are suffering are perhaps bigger than those innocents' pains... We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life".

I see nothing wrong with this.

Me neither, by definition, if you are a Christian you should be concerned more with people's spiritual health than their physical health. That's not to say of course that one shouldn't try to aid the Haitian's, of course one should.

Eh I think pointing the finger of judgement towards everybody for being poor spiritually is a strange sort of Christianity when Jesus said not to judge lest you be judged.

Plus it comes across as particularly callous and shitty to try and make that points while thousands of people are dying in Haiti. I guess Christians have a problem with Christian charity.

[grumbler]

Plus it comes across as particularly callous and shitty to try and make that points while thousands of people are dying in Haiti. I guess Christians have a problem with Christian charity.

Christians are to charity as Polacks are to intelligence.

[Valmy]

You must read things differently then the rest of us.

Raz speaks for everybody now?  Please enlighten me how the 'rest of us' think saying 'self pity > helping Haiti' reads?

[Razgovory]

You must read things differently then the rest of us.

Raz speaks for everybody now?  Please enlighten me how the 'rest of us' think saying 'self pity > helping Haiti' reads?

I didn't see self pity quoted anywhere.

[Martim Silva]

What differs is the scale and intensity. (...) it is not the fact of suffering that makes the fate of the Jews remarkable, it is the thoroughness of it - the fact that the Nazis more or less succeeded in their extermination campaign. The Nazis were using the Jews as their 'test case'.

Which just shows how incredibly stupid the Nazis were.

Everybody knows that, if you want to get rid of a population, just isolate the area, remove their food and cut off all outside food sources. The problem population is gone in a few months.

You can even choose when to stop and appear as a saviour (if you feel like it).

[Valmy]

You must read things differently then the rest of us.

Raz speaks for everybody now?  Please enlighten me how the 'rest of us' think saying 'self pity > helping Haiti' reads?

I didn't see self pity quoted anywhere.

We should shed tears too for ourselves, for our poor spiritual situation, for our materialistic conception of life

Shed tears for my own failures isn't self pity anymore?  Sure that is a far higher spiritual priority than helping others, to the point that we SHOULD do that instead of helping them.

How do the 'rest of us' define self pity?

[Valmy]

Sort of hard to 'love your neighbor as yourself' when you hate yourself isn't it?

[Martinus]

You must read things differently then the rest of us.

Raz speaks for everybody now?

Well, to give him justice, he probably speaks for more personas than all of us combined.

[Sheilbh]

I just wanted to post it for the sake of all the idiots who think I am prejudiced against catholics.

I'm biased against Poles