So I am talking to my students this week about Castro, and how Cuba isn't totalitarian, though it is close. I want to use Big Brother as an example of what totalitarianism is, as comparison.
Youtube is no help. Check it out. Lots of examples of the Apple spoof but zero examples of the thing being spoofed.
Turns out that the movie 1984 is really hard to reference http://www.amazon.com/1984-John-Hurt/dp/B00007KQA3/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1263531211&sr=1-1 shows that it is mega-expensive in original form and very expensive used.
I thought this fun to contemplate. Who would have guessed that 1984 is really hard to access?
With Netflix i can stream it online :nerd:
Too bad you don't teach English or you could just make them read it.
The movie is 9.95 EUR on Amazon.de
Class of 1984 is 2.99.
I'm not sure if there really very many actual totalitarian governments that have actually existed. It's very hard for the state to control every aspect of someone's life. The Soviet Union under Stalin is one of the most well known though I think the closest was Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge. I think Nazi Germany aspired to it but never was competent enough to achieve it. North Korea very well may be one, but it's hard to tell because nobody really knows what goes on in that country.
£3.98 on Amazon.uk, though it is the same 2004 release selling at a discount.
I recently re-read 1984, shortly after a read of Kynaston's Austerity Britain and Orwell's Homage to Catalonia; an interesting experience as both of these times in Orwell's life influenced 1984.
It's one of my least favorite songs off of Tina Turner's Private Dancer album.
There are plenty of movies set in sweden, but I don't know any about Sweden per se, sorry. :(
It was awesome year, yes.
Greatest human generation is born that year. [Haven't showned it yet]
Metropolis.
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 15, 2010, 07:18:45 AM
It was awesome year, yes.
Greatest human generation is born that year. [Haven't showned it yet]
My Idiot brother wasw born then.
What is it you teach, Grumbler?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2010, 01:46:12 AM
I'm not sure if there really very many actual totalitarian governments that have actually existed. It's very hard for the state to control every aspect of someone's life. The Soviet Union under Stalin is one of the most well known though I think the closest was Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge. I think Nazi Germany aspired to it but never was competent enough to achieve it. North Korea very well may be one, but it's hard to tell because nobody really knows what goes on in that country.
The GDR was probably more successful in that aspect than the Nazis.
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 08:21:25 AM
What is it you teach, Grumbler?
Classes for the dictators of the future. :D
In a class I student taught on, the teacher had a "time machine" cabinet full of nostalgic shit from the 70s-90s. Not a single one of them kids understood the "88 MPH" reference on the cabinet door. :homestar:
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 08:21:25 AM
What is it you teach, Grumbler?
English grammar, Experimental ethics (postwar), and DIY computer assembly.
Singapore seems like a better 1984 candidate than Cuba.
Quote from: Jaron on January 15, 2010, 09:48:02 AM
In a class I student taught on, the teacher had a "time machine" cabinet full of nostalgic shit from the 70s-90s. Not a single one of them kids understood the "88 MPH" reference on the cabinet door. :homestar:
Yes. Some of my student workers didn't understand the "nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." reference. Stupid kids.
What strikes me about "1984" references is that they're pretty much limited to "1984" and "Big Brother". It's like no one ever read the book, and just parrots what everyone else says. It's sort of similar to all the free market advocates being able to reference Adam Smith himself and the butcher with his lack of benevolence, but nothing else.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on January 15, 2010, 10:25:21 AM
Yes. Some of my student workers didn't understand the "nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." reference. Stupid kids.
:unsure:
I always thought that was just a Languish meme. :blush:
Newt!
Quote from: DGuller on January 15, 2010, 12:26:20 PM
What strikes me about "1984" references is that they're pretty much limited to "1984" and "Big Brother". It's like no one ever read the book, and just parrots what everyone else says. It's sort of similar to all the free market advocates being able to reference Adam Smith himself and the butcher with his lack of benevolence, but nothing else.
:huh:
Welcome to: Real world.
How many people form opinions and values based on their own research do you figure?
I would wager: Not many.
The movie is out of print on NA dvd maybe never on DVD. so yeah hard to find. Can you stream netflix in the class?
This wont come as a surprise to anyone but the Movie doesnt really capture the complete feeling of helplessness in an authoritarian state that the book provides. The last scene in the Movie where they see eachother and act with complete indifference is not well explained in the Movie and I think you really have to read the book to fully appreciate what has happened.
Quote from: DGuller on January 15, 2010, 12:26:20 PM
What strikes me about "1984" references is that they're pretty much limited to "1984" and "Big Brother". It's like no one ever read the book, and just parrots what everyone else says. It's sort of similar to all the free market advocates being able to reference Adam Smith himself and the butcher with his lack of benevolence, but nothing else.
That's not true at all. I've been known to also say "Doublespeak."
Weird that this thread arrises now, I was just thinking of 1984 last night- in particular the theory that its not a world constantly at war but just a N.Korean nutty Britain (or perhaps even London and its surroundings) which pretends to be part of something bigger.
More relevant to the thread- 1984 is definatly one of the main books that is always referenced but never read. Everyone knows the basics without actually reading it its so part of our culture
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 01:11:22 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 15, 2010, 12:26:20 PM
What strikes me about "1984" references is that they're pretty much limited to "1984" and "Big Brother". It's like no one ever read the book, and just parrots what everyone else says. It's sort of similar to all the free market advocates being able to reference Adam Smith himself and the butcher with his lack of benevolence, but nothing else.
That's not true at all. I've been known to also say "Doublespeak."
I've used the phrase "Hot for teacher" before. :)
RTFB!
I disagree with the thread consensus. I think 1984 is probably one of the most read books around. Certainly one of the 'important' novels that are widely read by the mainstream anyway.
An interesting thing about re-reads is that features of a book that seemed unimportant at one time can become far more salient under one's changed circumstances.
Take, for example, Winston's wanker of a neighbour and his revolting children.
This seemed very unimportant to me in my first two reads of the book (when I was a teen and as a single man in my late 20s). But, in my recent re-read, that little sub-plot really hit home and made the novel significantly more depressing.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 15, 2010, 02:14:53 PM
I disagree with the thread consensus. I think 1984 is probably one of the most read books around. Certainly one of the 'important' novels that are widely read by the mainstream anyway.
Agreed, I would assume that people had read it if I was in a pub discussion for example.
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
When you work in the pharma industry, that's not surprising. :D
Quote from: Zanza on January 15, 2010, 09:37:17 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2010, 01:46:12 AM
I'm not sure if there really very many actual totalitarian governments that have actually existed. It's very hard for the state to control every aspect of someone's life. The Soviet Union under Stalin is one of the most well known though I think the closest was Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge. I think Nazi Germany aspired to it but never was competent enough to achieve it. North Korea very well may be one, but it's hard to tell because nobody really knows what goes on in that country.
The GDR was probably more successful in that aspect than the Nazis.
Yeah the DDR also way up on the list. I don't know much about it though. To me a totalitarian government means there can't be any life outside the state. That just takes a lot of effort.
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
My high school made us read that instead of
1984. :bleeding:
I must say I've never read Brave New World.
But then I only first read 1984 two or three years ago.
My school chose the really crappy options for English- I could see elsewhere in the coursebook we had that one of the options available to us was Animal Farm. Yet they chose something so rubbish I can't even remember what it was...a bunch of short stories maybe.
Quote from: Savonarola on January 15, 2010, 01:14:18 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 01:11:22 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 15, 2010, 12:26:20 PM
What strikes me about "1984" references is that they're pretty much limited to "1984" and "Big Brother". It's like no one ever read the book, and just parrots what everyone else says. It's sort of similar to all the free market advocates being able to reference Adam Smith himself and the butcher with his lack of benevolence, but nothing else.
That's not true at all. I've been known to also say "Doublespeak."
I've used the phrase "Hot for teacher" before. :)
I get it. ;) [Van Halen, 1984 joke]
Quote from: Habbaku on January 15, 2010, 05:04:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
My high school made us read that instead of 1984. :bleeding:
One of the best courses I took at university was a course on Utiopian and Dystopian ficiton. While the Utopian stuff was crap we read some really good Dystopian ficiton including 1984, Brave New World, This Perfect Day by Ira Levin and Anthem by Ayn Rand. Loads of good stuff.
The trouble with the utopias is that, in general, they are even worse than the dystopias :D
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 15, 2010, 05:44:34 PM
The trouble with the utopias is that, in general, they are even worse than the dystopias :D
Well all utopias are dystopias and vice versa. It largely depends on what you're willing to have and what you get in return. Utopia's a great example.
One of the most interesting (and neglected things) about "1984" is that the victims of the novel are party members, not simple proles. The usual guy, as the novel suggests, is not followed around, is not being subjected to psychological manipulation: he is allowed to drink, gets porn and lottery... Winston's conviction that the proles are the future is so extraordinary because he somehow is the only person that thinks that. Not even O'Brien (that is aware of all the problems of the regime) can comprehend the possibility of the proles taking over.
Since real totalitarianism was impossible in the XXcentury, as far as the technical possibilities would allow, Orwell insists on the communist pattern of imposing control upon the new elites. While the old societies would try to subject the lowly people while maintaining peace with the other leading factions of society, the new ones transform upper politics into a wargame of uneasy truces and devious backstabbings, pushing the rest of the people in a space devoided of any political discussion or debate. The scary part of the novel is not Winston's suffering, but the fact that Big Brother managed to train proles into insensitive cattle, that have no interest whatsoever in politics and leadership of their society.
You can't let your students see that movie. Full frontal nudity? You will lose your job so fast your head won't stop spinning until we have a white president.
Any prole showing signs of independent thought was liquidated IIRC. So the method of control differed, a prole was fine as long as he went down the tracks laid for him by the Party.
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 05:39:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 15, 2010, 05:19:32 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 05:18:37 PM
Anthem by Ayn Rand. Loads of good stuff.
:bleeding:
Best Rand book, IMO (the shortest one, too)
I'm proud to say that's the only Rand book I've ever read. I was sixteen or so when I read it and quite liked it. Unlike "1984", it ends on a hopeful note. I've also read Yevgeny Zamyatin's "We", which is a pretty good dystopian novel as well. Fahrenheit 451 is good, too.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 15, 2010, 06:36:42 PM
Any prole showing signs of independent thought was liquidated IIRC. So the method of control differed, a prole was fine as long as he went down the tracks laid for him by the Party.
Not necessarily. Proles could even say fuck off to Big Brother, nobody would take them seriously. Winston's words, not mine.
Quote from: citizen k on January 15, 2010, 06:43:03 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 05:39:27 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 15, 2010, 05:19:32 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 05:18:37 PM
Anthem by Ayn Rand. Loads of good stuff.
:bleeding:
Best Rand book, IMO (the shortest one, too)
I'm proud to say that's the only Rand book I've ever read. I was sixteen or so when I read it and quite liked it. Unlike "1984", it ends on a hopeful note. I've also read Yevgeny Zamyatin's "We", which is a pretty good dystopian novel as well. Fahrenheit 451 is good, too.
Yeah read both of those as well, though outside of that course.
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 05:18:37 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 15, 2010, 05:04:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
My high school made us read that instead of 1984. :bleeding:
One of the best courses I took at university was a course on Utiopian and Dystopian ficiton. While the Utopian stuff was crap we read some really good Dystopian ficiton including 1984, Brave New World, This Perfect Day by Ira Levin and Anthem by Ayn Rand. Loads of good stuff.
You should be thrown from a bridge.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2010, 07:15:59 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 05:18:37 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 15, 2010, 05:04:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
My high school made us read that instead of 1984. :bleeding:
One of the best courses I took at university was a course on Utiopian and Dystopian ficiton. While the Utopian stuff was crap we read some really good Dystopian ficiton including 1984, Brave New World, This Perfect Day by Ira Levin and Anthem by Ayn Rand. Loads of good stuff.
You should be thrown from a bridge.
Why? :(
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 07:27:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 15, 2010, 07:15:59 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 05:18:37 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 15, 2010, 05:04:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
My high school made us read that instead of 1984. :bleeding:
One of the best courses I took at university was a course on Utiopian and Dystopian ficiton. While the Utopian stuff was crap we read some really good Dystopian ficiton including 1984, Brave New World, This Perfect Day by Ira Levin and Anthem by Ayn Rand. Loads of good stuff.
You should be thrown from a bridge.
Why? :(
Is Raz: a proponent of BASE jumping?
Quote from: Habbaku on January 15, 2010, 05:04:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
My high school made us read that instead of 1984. :bleeding:
We had to read
Animal Farm instead.
Quote from: dps on January 15, 2010, 11:38:04 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 15, 2010, 05:04:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
My high school made us read that instead of 1984. :bleeding:
We had to read Animal Farm instead.
We read both. Though I had read 1984 before I was assigned to read it in world novels.
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 08:21:25 AM
What is it you teach, Grumbler?
Retarded Semantics 101?
Quote from: dps on January 15, 2010, 11:38:04 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on January 15, 2010, 05:04:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 15, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
I've read it several times but it is intertwined in my mind with Brave New World. :Embarrass:
My high school made us read that instead of 1984. :bleeding:
We had to read Animal Farm instead.
Animal Farm isn't really about a totalitarian state, though. It's about a self-destructive mechanism of a revolution.
Now I have to re-read 1984. :thumbsup: Looking for dogeared tattered copy at used bookstores later today, or tomorrow. I haven't read it since High school. I keep meaning to though. Now you guys have given me food for thought on it. thanks.
Quote from: Martinus on January 16, 2010, 05:50:24 AM
Quote from: Josephus on January 15, 2010, 08:21:25 AM
What is it you teach, Grumbler?
Retarded Semantics 101?
No, I don't teach you and your buddies, you moron. And the fact that your nation annihilated your "Semitics" does not make the rest of you "Semantics!"
Zing!
grumbler teaches Special Ed. He makes it Special.
We had to choose between Walden 2 and Brave New World.
Anyway, this is a good thread to share one of the most ironic pics I've seen lately:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_pajTPOgv1Zc%2FRnU9ymJ7uiI%2FAAAAAAAAANM%2FqGS4KA7j7S8%2Fs400%2FOrwell.jpg&hash=36d060ddd244e950e317f39793e4f75d53963034)
:D