Yeah, I would rather not stay there.
https://gizmodo.com/architect-says-billionaires-dystopian-dorm-design-is-a-1847964193
QuoteArchitect Says Billionaire's Dystopian Dorm Design Is a Dangerous Social and Psychological Experiment
Warren Buffet's right-hand man, Charlie Munger, designed a mammoth dorm with limited windows and only two entrances for 4,500 students.
ByWhitney Kimball
Yesterday 1:40PM
Comments (270)
The Santa Barbara Independent reports that architect Dennis McFadden has resigned from the school's Design Review Committee in protest over the planned Munger Hall, calling the 11-story mixed-use cellblock of academic halls and inward-facing compartments "a social and psychological experiment" with unknown impacts on thousands of subjects in the coming years. It will warehouse up to 4,500 students, 94 percent of whom will sleep in pods equipped with what appears to be artificial sunlight panels and bunks wedged into the wall, spending their formative years winding through eight-bedroom containers. Like rats. McFadden said the building only has two entrances (!) and it's unclear how accessible any emergency exits are or how robust the ventilation system is.
The place is gonna stink.
(In a press release, UCSB does not display images of the dorm rooms but the Independent obtained some renderings.)
(https://www.independent.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/munger1.jpg?resize=1205%2C646?w=1205)
(https://www.independent.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Screen-Shot-2021-10-29-at-12.36.24-PM-1.png?w=990&resize=990%2C586)
UCSB Chancellor Henry Yang has called it "an unprecedented residential experience." Prison is similar, except here you pay rent. It does have retail space. And academic halls. And food.
They'll never need to leave.
The university has already moved ahead without a vote or approval process because Munger has money, the Santa Barbara Independent reports. Munger paid the school $200 million to let him install his creation on campus so long as they adhered precisely to his blueprints.
In an outraged letter to campus architect Julie Hendricks, McFadden said that there was no research presented to examine the human toll, that it would represent the eighth densest neighborhood on Earth. It is, he wrote, "unsupportable from my perspective as an architect, a parent, and a human being." He echoes the righteousness of George Bailey, except in a world where the banker just pays for everything, and that's the end, and people live in Mungerville, which is an actual location. Per a Wall Street Journal report on his architectural ventures:
Although Mr. Munger never formally studied architecture, he has experience developing real estate in Southern California. He built a community of luxury beachfront properties called Sea Meadow in Montecito, Calif., in the 1980s and '90s, which his friends call Mungerville.
But people love Charlie Munger, Warren Buffet's sidekick and investment sage. There must be a lesson in this. For one, there's the old good, cheap, and fast rule, and you can't have all three; this is cheap and fast. Each floor is only supposed to take 20 days of construction, and the university extols the modular prefab unit concept for its cost savings.
Or, if you work hard enough, someday you get a fire escape.
Looks like a military barracks. What a bunch of snowflakes.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 30, 2021, 10:38:16 PM
Looks like a military barracks. What a bunch of snowflakes.
Do barracks typically house a whole brigade?
A bit Jeremy Bentham.
So is it up to code or not?
And stuff like
Quoteit's unclear ... how robust the ventilation system is.
The place is gonna stink.
makes me not immediately get on board with the article's outrage.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 30, 2021, 10:38:16 PM
Looks like a military barracks. What a bunch of snowflakes.
Yes, it looks like an old-school military barracks. That's not a positive thing. Those kinds of barracks were only tolerable for boot camps or when the military was made up of conscripts.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 30, 2021, 10:38:16 PM
Looks like a military barracks. What a bunch of snowflakes.
Better a snowflake than a meathead.
I wonder what wiggle there is in the contract.
So they get the money but they have to build it exactly as designed by a guy with no experience designing buildings....
How long before they can then modify it into something decent?
It looks like a wet dream for any potential campus/school mass shooter.
The tone of the article makes me assume that all the facts in it are probably bullshit. So I remain completely oblivious to whether this is good or bad.
I will fall back on the basic idea that "Hey, why not try something different"? response.
Why would any student want to pay for that setup?
From the image showing each cluster, it looks like maybe two bathrooms per 12 (and one toilet in each bathroom)? That doesn't sound great for nasty college students.
I'm not opposed to tiny rooms and living quarters in principle, but to me this sounds and looks on the face of it like it has a very high potential for going wrong.
Munger apparently has no architectural experience, yet he's designing a building, the specs which must be adhered to exactly. Architecture is a fairly complex field, and in all my experience putting enthusiastic dilettantes in charge of designing complex systems almost inevitably leads to severely suboptimal outcomes. Or did Munger work with actual experts and just put his name on the design as a vanity project?
It is pretty well established that consistent lack of natural light leads to poor sleep quality, stress, poor performance, negative impact on mental health, and lower quality of life. I believe it may be at least partially addressed with proper lighting design. Does this place have that?
Looking at the plans themselves a single point fire in any of the secondary corridors has the potential to trap everyone in one or two pods. A large fire would be worse. It being America, active shooter scenarios should probably also be considered.
Now I'm not an expert in these areas, so this could all be taken care of. Normally I'd trust that professionals would consider and address potential issues. In this case it seems the professionals responsible for signing off on the project would rather resign, which I think is concerning.
To garbon's point, though, from the 3d render int looks like two bathrooms per 8 (assuming single occupancy rooms).
That looks a lot like my Dwarf Fortress layouts.
Incidentally, Munger and I have the exact same amount of professional architecture experience.
This isn't that different than my dorm back in college. Except it was 6 people to a bathroom instead of 8. It looks like a it has an oven, which is nice.
Quote from: Jacob on October 31, 2021, 11:15:58 AM
To garbon's point, though, from the 3d render int looks like two bathrooms per 8 (assuming single occupancy rooms).
I can't count. :weep:
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 31, 2021, 11:33:04 AM
That looks a lot like my Dwarf Fortress layouts.
Incidentally, Munger and I have the exact same amount of professional architecture experience.
No you have more, I very much doubt he's played dwarf fortress. :)
Quote from: mongers on October 31, 2021, 12:05:10 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 31, 2021, 11:33:04 AM
That looks a lot like my Dwarf Fortress layouts.
Incidentally, Munger and I have the exact same amount of professional architecture experience.
No you have more, I very much doubt he's played dwarf fortress. :)
It's clear he hasn't. There are no lava moats or trap lined corridors.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 31, 2021, 12:22:20 PM
It's clear he hasn't. There are no lava moats or trap lined corridors.
Though there will be solitary people locked in rooms crying and distraught.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 31, 2021, 12:22:20 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 31, 2021, 12:05:10 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 31, 2021, 11:33:04 AM
That looks a lot like my Dwarf Fortress layouts.
Incidentally, Munger and I have the exact same amount of professional architecture experience.
No you have more, I very much doubt he's played dwarf fortress. :)
It's clear he hasn't. There are no lava moats or trap lined corridors.
How do you know the plans that have to be explicitly followed to the letter didn't say to keep that stuff secret?
They lose their effectiveness if everyone knows where they are afterall.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 30, 2021, 10:38:16 PM
What a bunch of snowflakes.
They prefer "architects". But it's the same anyway. :P
Quote from: Tyr on October 31, 2021, 04:55:18 AM
So they get the money but they have to build it exactly as designed by a guy with no experience designing buildings....
apparently, he built a few like these all over the US.
Quote from: Jacob on October 31, 2021, 11:15:58 AM
I'm not opposed to tiny rooms and living quarters in principle, but to me this sounds and looks on the face of it like it has a very high potential for going wrong.
Munger apparently has no architectural experience, yet he's designing a building, the specs which must be adhered to exactly. Architecture is a fairly complex field, and in all my experience putting enthusiastic dilettantes in charge of designing complex systems almost inevitably leads to severely suboptimal outcomes. Or did Munger work with actual experts and just put his name on the design as a vanity project?
Architecture is closer to art than science, most of the time.
Engineering is important. Architecture is all about how the building looks. Well, not all, there are a few building code requirements to be observed, but still, the majority of the stuff is handled by structural and mechanical engineers.
From what I've read of the projects, he does work with architects, but they must respect his design philosophy.
Quote from: viper37 on October 31, 2021, 07:01:17 PM
Quote from: Jacob on October 31, 2021, 11:15:58 AM
I'm not opposed to tiny rooms and living quarters in principle, but to me this sounds and looks on the face of it like it has a very high potential for going wrong.
Munger apparently has no architectural experience, yet he's designing a building, the specs which must be adhered to exactly. Architecture is a fairly complex field, and in all my experience putting enthusiastic dilettantes in charge of designing complex systems almost inevitably leads to severely suboptimal outcomes. Or did Munger work with actual experts and just put his name on the design as a vanity project?
Architecture is closer to art than science, most of the time.
Engineering is important. Architecture is all about how the building looks. Well, not all, there are a few building code requirements to be observed, but still, the majority of the stuff is handled by structural and mechanical engineers.
From what I've read of the projects, he does work with architects, but they must respect his design philosophy.
:hmm:
Someone tried that approach before, iirc it didn't turn out too well.
Quote from: viper37 on October 31, 2021, 06:57:49 PM
Quote from: Tyr on October 31, 2021, 04:55:18 AM
So they get the money but they have to build it exactly as designed by a guy with no experience designing buildings....
apparently, he built a few like these all over the US.
None of the others have anywhere near this size or density.
Everyone getting a single bed cubby hole is pretty cool.
If it's good enough for wage slaves workers in Hong Kong ...
(https://video-images.vice.com/_uncategorized/1524793810075-7_AA11782ss-r.jpeg)
(https://wonderfulengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Coffin-Cubicles-Hong-Kong-4.jpg)
(https://artistrealm.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/coffin-cubicles-trapped-benny-lam-hong-kong-3-597ae9dbd7e6b__880.jpg)
(https://video-images.vice.com/_uncategorized/1524792801740-8_shot-44728rss-r.jpeg)
(https://static.dw.com/image/43334764_401.jpg)
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b2fbc42f7f409963455898f9773ccbad9558657d/0_0_1440_996/master/1440.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=773a6ea64e8161fc856f19fcb4482be4)
I'd incidentally been reading about this a few days ago. To clear a few things up:
- As far as I can tell Munger is not doing the real architecture work himself, he is a dilettante, but understands that he is, so he's like coming up with the rough ideas but he has a real architect doing the actual work of drafting the plans and other design elements that he just wouldn't know how to do without any architectural training. He actually mentioned in one of his interviews that "if an architect doesn't like doing it my way, I just find a new architect that will." Which obviously suggests some "troubles" here, but it isn't AFAIK the case that he's drafting these designs with his own hand, he basically has the idea of a hyper dense dorm with single occupant bedrooms and maximized floor space, but real architects are doing the work of making the plans.
- The student to bathroom ratio isn't at all unusual in dorms I've seen.
- Munger said he was inspired to do this because lots of his family members who went through college complained about having to share a dorm room (often / usually with someone the university assigns as a randomized roommate), and he views this as a solution to both that, and the needs of the specific university to fit lots of people into a relatively small geographic area
I'm actually less concerned about the natural light issue than most, and am more concerned about the fact that there's only two entrances/exits. I have to seriously question if there's fire code / safety issues there.
The natural light issue I think is a bit overblown if you consider that these are very small dorm rooms that I think the intention is these kids use to sleep in and maybe study sometimes, but they'll be walking around campus every single day going to / from class, and there's plenty of hang out and communal areas that would have natural light. Lots of people sleep in rooms that don't have direct access to natural light, so I think it's really all about the context of how the students are living. If they are spending 90% of their time in those rooms it could be a problem, but I think that's atypical for most college students.
Quote from: Berkut on October 31, 2021, 10:19:42 AM
I will fall back on the basic idea that "Hey, why not try something different"? response.
Sure.
Along those lines, while Berkshire Hathaway has a fine track record, I feel the formula is getting a little tired. So my idea is put Rem Koolhaas in charge of reviewing and approving all investment proposals. Does Koolhaas any background or experience in investment management? Not that I know of but that's the whole point isn't it - find a brilliant guy who is a complete amateur and see if he can do better. If Charlie Munger can design buildings, I have no doubt that Koolhaas can figure out how to get alpha returns.
As Otto pointed out, Charlie Munger isn't designing buildings, he's using his money to prepare designs and entice schools into building them. There's a Munger graduate residence hall at Michigan, somewhat similar to this concept, except much smaller and the "pods" all ended at a common room with windows. Plus, each room had its own bathroom.
The ratio of one shower and one shitter per eight students may be close to what traditional dorms have, but scheduling is less flexible when it's one shower for eight than when it is four showers for thirty-two.
Btw, UCSB is the most attractive campus in the world, of those I've seen, and this anthill doesn't seem to fit the UCSB style at all. I get that real estate in Santa Barbara is expensive, but $1.5 billion is a lot of money.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 01, 2021, 09:15:36 AM
He actually mentioned in one of his interviews that "if an architect doesn't like doing it my way, I just find a new architect that will."
He may not be preparing the architectural plans but he is providing the overall design, with the architect's task being to implement his scheme.
Quote from: grumbler on November 01, 2021, 09:51:23 AM
The ratio of one shower and one shitter per eight students may be close to what traditional dorms have, but scheduling is less flexible when it's one shower for eight than when it is four showers for thirty-two.
Yeah, I actually was a little skeptical on the number of shower stalls as well, the number of toilets likely is fine. But showers tend to be needed all at once in the morning, and a lot of dorms I've seen instead of the actual private bathroom setup here, is you'll have a bathroom with like 3 toilet stalls and 3 shower stalls that's shared between a "pod" of rooms, the ratio on toilets/students being probably about the same as what Munger is doing, but with more shower stalls. Also the way these bathrooms are designed someone can't use the toilet and the shower at the same time without the unfortunate experience of basically having someone shitting in the room right outside the shower stall, which is a little third world for a communal bathroom.
When I was in a dorm we had one bathroom for 4 people, I shudder at the idea of one for 8.
It looks to me like one of the "bathrooms" is a shower room and the other a shitter room. Freshman classes are often the early ones, so the shower schedule is going to be difficult. If both rooms are shower+shitter, then things get a lot easier.
So far the biggest problem is the one that Jake pointed out. Fire Hazard. That's a deal breaker.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-the-tuesday-edition-1.6234150/billionaire-defends-windowless-dorm-rooms-for-california-students-1.6234462^
QuoteBillionaire defends windowless dorm rooms for California students
Charles Munger says artificial windows are, in some ways, 'actually better' than the real deal
Billionaire Charles Munger is standing by his concept for a massive California dormitory that's been compared to a prison for students.
Munger is the vice-chair of the multinational conglomerate holding company Berkshire Hathaway. In 2016, he vowed to donate $200 million US to the University of California, Santa Barbara, to build a new student housing project.
There was just one stipulation. The university must accept Munger's approved design, or he'd pull the funding.
That design for Munger Hall was unveiled last month. It proposes an 11-storey, 1.68-million-square-foot building housing 4,500 students, 94 per cent of whom would live in single-occupancy, windowless dorm rooms.
L.A. Times columnist Carolina A. Miranda called it dystopian. Dennis McFadden, a veteran California architect, quit the university's design review committee over the proposed building, calling it "unsupportable from my perspective as an architect, a parent and a human being," the Santa Barbara Independent reports.
In an interview with As It Happens host Carol Off, Munger dismissed McFadden's criticisms as "crazy suppositions by an ignorant man." Here is an excerpt from that conversation.
What would you say to [Denis McFadden] if you had the chance?
Well, if he knew more about it, he would have had more correct conclusions.
What else does he have to know, in your view?
The reason this building is the way it is, is because there are enormous advantages in having a lot of undergraduates conveniently near one another and conveniently near everything else they like to be near.
The logical way to do that is to make a building in a big footprint and devote the top floor of it — which is a penthouse floor normally given to rich people, you know, for condos — and give that to the students as their common space, and to put a certain amount of academic space into that gigantic top floor with all the light and air and so forth.
And so it's just that it was so novel, he's never seen that done, and he doesn't like it when it's different from what he's used to.
Well, I think what he is objecting to, and he's not alone in that, is that, as you say, this is a place where a lot of students can live — 4,500 will live in 11 floors, and almost every student would be in a windowless room.
No, that's not true. Every student is in a house and suite system, and the house has lots of windows and a big common living space and dining space and kitchen space and so on. And so they're not living in windowless space.
But their bedrooms ... are windowless.
The bedrooms have artificial windows instead of real ones, but they've got perfect ventilation.
What's an artificial window?
If you go on a Disney cruise ship and pay $20,000 a week for a fancy stateroom, it uses an artificial window instead of a real one.
And that's what we do in these what he calls "windowless bedrooms."
When you look at them, the way they're curtained and so forth, you can't tell if they're artificial by looking at them, and they admit the exact spectrum of real sunlight.
That's a lot to expect of an artificial window, but they do something else that a real-world window can't do it all.
You can turn a knob and change the sunlight to brighten it up or down. So if you're a romantic, you can tamp it down. If you want more bright light and so forth, you can turn the sunlight up just by twisting a knob.
In many respects, these things are actually better than real windows.
But a window doesn't just give you light; it gives you a view. It lets you see the world.
Obviously, it would be better if every student could have a penthouse with perfect views in all four directions. But we don't do that because we can't get enough students to live conveniently close together.
This building has been criticized [by McFadden in his resignation letter] as a "social and psychological experiment with an unknown impact in the lives and personal developments" of these young people.
Well, he's just pulling that out of the air. Buildings actually exist with no windows at all in Michigan and people are living in them fine.
But there's a whole bunch of social science research that shows that windowless designs, especially when you're in them for long periods of time, can be quite detrimental to your mental health. Did you look at those?
We look at actual buildings. We have built these buildings. The [Munger Graduate Residence Hall] in Michigan has no windows. It works fine. But once you put the artificial window in, it's a huge improvement.
[On] a Disney cruise ship, you know, half the staterooms are below the waterline or on the wrong side of the aisle. They rely on artificial windows instead of real ones.
Come on, you're only there for a short time.... But a student is in the dorm for ... sometimes eight or nine months.
What the students hate most of all — as I know; we had eight children — what they really hate is sharing a bedroom with an unrelated stranger. And in this project, every single student gets his own private sleeping area. That's unheard of in undergraduate. That's a huge benefit, and it's one that means a great deal to the students.
This windowless thing is just a bunch of crazy suppositions by an ignorant man.
You're not an architect, though, are you?
Well, no, but I've been building buildings all my life, and I've hired a lot of the very eminent architects for over 70 years.
The best buildings, in my opinion, are always created when an intelligent owner is working with an intelligent architect. And that's what's happened here. This is not just my design. This is a design with a lot of inputs from others.
One of your inputs was $200 million [US] to fund the building of this dorm. And is it true that a caveat ... was that you were to design it?
It is true that I wanted to approve it. But there's a lot of things in this design that I didn't create. The design was created collaboratively.
It was your idea to have the rooms with these fake windows, right?
Yes, absolutely.
And it's true that you would not have given the money if you weren't allowed to make this contribution, right?
If they'd wanted a different kind of a building, I would not have given the money; that's correct.
Did you spend a year in a windowless room as a student?
I came pretty close because I slept on a sleeping porch, which had a lot of beds in it, when I was in a fraternity.
Did you have windows then?
Yeah, there were a few windows.
Don't you think that matters?
Well, everybody would prefer to have real windows if it were feasible. But it's a game of trade-offs, architecture.
If the university wants to make substantial changes to your design, will you withdraw your money?
The answer to that is, of course, I would.
Quote from: Syt on November 03, 2021, 07:23:26 AM
QuoteWhat the students hate most of all — as I know; we had eight children — what they really hate is sharing a bedroom with an unrelated stranger.
I'm wondering if this is true at all. I had three different roommates in college and all three became lifetime friends. Having a roommate was one of the rites of passage for college when I went.
I'm kinda curious about the experiences of others here with college and roommates. Would you have preferred to have half the room but no roommate?
I know that "college wives" is a thing, but in other cases it seems weird to be an adult sharing a bedroom with another random adult.
Quote from: The Brain on November 03, 2021, 08:17:17 AM
I know that "college wives" is a thing, but in other cases it seems weird to be an adult sharing a bedroom with another random adult.
Spoken like a true single occupancy Scandinavia house/flat owner. :P
Quote from: mongers on November 03, 2021, 08:40:05 AM
Quote from: The Brain on November 03, 2021, 08:17:17 AM
I know that "college wives" is a thing, but in other cases it seems weird to be an adult sharing a bedroom with another random adult.
Spoken like a true single occupancy Scandinavia house/flat owner. :P
I did my sharing in the army, thank you very much.
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2021, 08:06:59 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 03, 2021, 07:23:26 AM
QuoteWhat the students hate most of all — as I know; we had eight children — what they really hate is sharing a bedroom with an unrelated stranger.
I'm wondering if this is true at all. I had three different roommates in college and all three became lifetime friends. Having a roommate was one of the rites of passage for college when I went.
I'm kinda curious about the experiences of others here with college and roommates. Would you have preferred to have half the room but no roommate?
It seems like the idea here is to be able to keep that sense of the "roomate" in that you still have a bunch of people who are sharing a common living area, they just don't share the actual sleeping area.
I kind of get what they are trying to go for here, and why they are saying it isn't that important that the individual sleeping rooms are minimalistic and lacking windows. The idea is, I think, that all the stuff you actually want to do in your dorm *other then sleeping* is still there, and even better. But everyone gets this minimal space for actual sleeping that is private and their own.
I don't know if this is better then a traditional dorm or not. Seems pretty straightforward to find out though - give it a try and see what people think.
An architect complaining about someone forcing social experiments on members of the public based on their views of ideal lifestyles and social organisation...Erm....
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/030/710/dd0.jpg)
Okay, so the As It Happens interview kind of made sense to me. 'Okay, so you don't get a window - but you do get an individual bedroom'.
I never lived in a dorm room. But I did spend one school year in a fraternity house. It was a basement room with a basement window. If given the choice I'd have rather given up my tiny window in a heartbeat rather than have a second person sleep in the same room. I still managed to be good friends with the other brothers living in the house even without sleeping in the same room.
I did spend one week in a dorm room at Western University in London, Ontario. I went there for Ontario's Crown School. It did manage to have both individual rooms and windows though.
How about just doing as is done in most of the world and not having shared bedrooms?
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 03, 2021, 09:55:22 AM
An architect complaining about someone forcing social experiments on members of the public based on their views of ideal lifestyles and social organisation...Erm....
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/030/710/dd0.jpg)
^_^
Rooms, showers, all that aside...I think Grumbler brought up a very good point early on:
This building doesn't fit in to a campus that has a style that makes it stand out. UCSB is a great location, with what has always seemed a sound idea of aesthetics.
As much as it pains me, the architectural mish mash of UC Santa Cruz could stand a big blob of a building here far better than UCSB.
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 09:03:22 AM
I don't know if this is better then a traditional dorm or not. Seems pretty straightforward to find out though - give it a try and see what people think.
Except that this is a $1.5 billion experiment. That's a lot to risk for a university.
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2021, 11:07:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 09:03:22 AM
I don't know if this is better then a traditional dorm or not. Seems pretty straightforward to find out though - give it a try and see what people think.
Except that this is a $1.5 billion experiment. That's a lot to risk for a university.
I think they are the best judges of that though.
It's not like there are 20 universities out there giving this a shot, right?
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2021, 08:06:59 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 03, 2021, 07:23:26 AM
QuoteWhat the students hate most of all — as I know; we had eight children — what they really hate is sharing a bedroom with an unrelated stranger.
I'm wondering if this is true at all. I had three different roommates in college and all three became lifetime friends. Having a roommate was one of the rites of passage for college when I went.
I'm kinda curious about the experiences of others here with college and roommates. Would you have preferred to have half the room but no roommate?
I had mixed experiences with roommates. Some still good friends with and some not. My favorite times in college were when I got the whole room but no roommate assigned. :)
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 11:09:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2021, 11:07:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 09:03:22 AM
I don't know if this is better then a traditional dorm or not. Seems pretty straightforward to find out though - give it a try and see what people think.
Except that this is a $1.5 billion experiment. That's a lot to risk for a university.
I think they are the best judges of that though.
It's not like there are 20 universities out there giving this a shot, right?
I'd be annoyed to have to pay room & board for experimental housing.
Quote from: garbon on November 03, 2021, 11:30:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 11:09:56 AM
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2021, 11:07:50 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 09:03:22 AM
I don't know if this is better then a traditional dorm or not. Seems pretty straightforward to find out though - give it a try and see what people think.
Except that this is a $1.5 billion experiment. That's a lot to risk for a university.
I think they are the best judges of that though.
It's not like there are 20 universities out there giving this a shot, right?
I'd be annoyed to have to pay room & board for experimental housing.
Then don't choose to go to a college where that is what is being offered.
Personally, I would find the idea kind of intriguing. Although I would like the option of bailing if it turned out to be the nightmare people are claiming.
I suspect it will end up being neither the dystopian hellhole that its detractors are claiming, or the (artificial) sunshine, light, and wonderous well being its proponents hope. But just another dorm room building in a ocean of them.
Hell, I suspect that overall the fact that these will be new and modern alone will make the superior to most dorm rooms. My daughters dorm looks like it was built in the freaking 1950s.
Is that the only housing that exists or do you get a random chance of paying for a social experiment?
My understanding is that this will represent about one third of the total student housing at the school.
Quote from: garbon on November 03, 2021, 02:43:12 PM
Is that the only housing that exists or do you get a random chance of paying for a social experiment?
Can we characterize any change in how housing is structured as a "social experiment"?
It's weird how resistant to change people are - I mean its freaking dorm housing. It kind of sucks regardless. It's designed to be tolerated for a year or two, and just about everyone who lives in a dorm is looking to NOT be living in a dorm by the time they are juniors.
I am kind of surprised at the level of concern over this.
A quick google search:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/934150/student-housing-accommodation-type-usa/
About 45% of student housing is dorms.
Of that half of them are over 50 years old.
Something like 60,000 students live in some kind of on campus housing.
I am rather confident that this new "experiment" is almost certainly better then a 50 year old dorm room. So it is an improvement over not building a new building at all.
What is the point of fear mongering stuff like this?
It will either work, in which case, cool - we learned something new!
Or it won't work, in which case, bummer. Try something else.
It's not like we are experimenting on freshman's ability to handle LSD sprinkled in their cheerios. It's a different setup for a dorm. And nobody is being forced to live in one.
Maybe your university was different. We had to live on campus our first year and didn't have a choice in residence.
Quote from: garbon on November 03, 2021, 03:19:12 PM
Maybe your university was different. We had to live on campus our first year and didn't have a choice in residence.
Then go to a different university.
Every one of my kids visits, checking out the dorms they would be likely to be living in was one of the main reasons to visit. I thought that was kind of dumb, personally, but hey, apparently it matters to some people.
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2021, 08:06:59 AM
I'm wondering if this is true at all. I had three different roommates in college and all three became lifetime friends. Having a roommate was one of the rites of passage for college when I went.
I'm kinda curious about the experiences of others here with college and roommates. Would you have preferred to have half the room but no roommate?
First year I was assigned a black kid from Chicago and a white one from Midland, Michigan who "Wasn't a racist but..." To make matters worse one liked the room at about 90 degrees F, and the other kept the windows open in the winter (which is a little chilly on the Lake Superior side of Michigan's upper peninsula.) But that did force me to get out of my room and make friends.
The other years I had the same roommate and he has been a lifelong friend. I wouldn't have preferred a single room.
One of the universities I looked at, GMI (Kettering University today) did have single rooms. They were small, sparse and made of painted white cinder block; but they did have windows (with a view of downtown Flint, MI, demonstrating that there are worse things than not having a window. ;))
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 03:26:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 03, 2021, 03:19:12 PM
Maybe your university was different. We had to live on campus our first year and didn't have a choice in residence.
Then go to a different university.
Every one of my kids visits, checking out the dorms they would be likely to be living in was one of the main reasons to visit. I thought that was kind of dumb, personally, but hey, apparently it matters to some people.
That might be hard as I already graduated. :blush:
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 03:15:30 PM
I am rather confident that this new "experiment" is almost certainly better then a 50 year old dorm room.
I lived in a dorm older than that. Nice building; far superior to the Charlie Munger School of Architecture.
I don't see why we stop here. Why not have Eric Trump propose the physics syllabus and Elon Musk draw up plays for the football team? Money should decide.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2021, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 03:15:30 PM
I am rather confident that this new "experiment" is almost certainly better then a 50 year old dorm room.
I lived in a dorm older than that. Nice building; far superior to the Charlie Munger School of Architecture.
I don't see why we stop here. Why not have Eric Trump propose the physics syllabus and Elon Musk draw up plays for the football team? Money should decide.
I lived in a dorm built in 1940. I agree that it was much nicer both in atmosphere and in comfort than the new Munger places. We had 2-person rooms, though, so Munger's kids would have hated it.
The hall of residence I lived in my first shitty year of uni was built on the same designs as a Swedish minimum secruirty prison :ph34r:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2021, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 03:15:30 PM
I am rather confident that this new "experiment" is almost certainly better then a 50 year old dorm room.
I lived in a dorm older than that. Nice building; far superior to the Charlie Munger School of Architecture.
I don't see why we stop here. Why not have Eric Trump propose the physics syllabus and Elon Musk draw up plays for the football team? Money should decide.
If either of them want to fund a physics syllabus and some school is dumb enough to go for it, then I sure as hell don't care.
If Elon Musk wants to pay the U of A a couple hundred million in return for them promising to run some plays he drew up on his napkin....
A) They could use the money, and
B) Shit, it could hurt! They are 0-8, what's the worst that could happen?
As has been alluded to, if you want to live in a house that wasn't designed by a douche then good luck in the great outdoors. Architects are some of the worst people around.
Quote from: Berkut on November 04, 2021, 03:31:51 PM
If either of them want to fund a physics syllabus and some school is dumb enough to go for it, then I sure as hell don't care.
I do care, because those students will graduate with degrees and may obtain jobs with some responsibilities that matter.
Academic integrity is not just a marketing slogan, it is a core value that determines the worth of an educational system.
Presumably the accreditation process would weed out schools teaching Trumpian physics.
Quote from: The Brain on November 03, 2021, 08:45:09 AM
I did my sharing in the army, thank you very much.
How did you live in college?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 05, 2021, 03:36:53 AM
Quote from: The Brain on November 03, 2021, 08:45:09 AM
I did my sharing in the army, thank you very much.
How did you live in college?
I lived alone in a multi-bedroom apartment within walking distance of the university.
Quote from: The Brain on November 05, 2021, 03:51:49 AM
I lived alone in a multi-bedroom apartment within walking distance of the university.
Trustifarian?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 05, 2021, 04:06:55 AM
Quote from: The Brain on November 05, 2021, 03:51:49 AM
I lived alone in a multi-bedroom apartment within walking distance of the university.
Trustifarian?
I wish. I was just lucky that a family member needed someone to watch their apartment for a few years.
I never lived in a dorm - always an off campus apartment. With roomates, it was cheaper then dorms, and I was poor as shit.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 05, 2021, 12:58:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 04, 2021, 03:31:51 PM
If either of them want to fund a physics syllabus and some school is dumb enough to go for it, then I sure as hell don't care.
I do care, because those students will graduate with degrees and may obtain jobs with some responsibilities that matter.
Academic integrity is not just a marketing slogan, it is a core value that determines the worth of an educational system.
...and if some school decides to whore their academic credentials out, then that will be reflected in the quality of their graduates and program.
I am sure there are plenty of physics programs out there that produce crappy physicists for a variety of reasons.
Just like I am sure there are plenty of dorm rooms out there that suck rocks whether these ones get built or not.
I've seen nothing that suggests that these dorms are going to be so horrible that they warrant such an outsized reaction to what is basically an attempt to just try something different.
It is surprising how reactionary people can be....even in something as innocuous as college dorm rooms.
Again, what's the worst case scenario here? Some rich guy wastes a bunch of his money subsidizing dorm rooms that turn out to be lame. Like most dorm rooms already are. Teh horror.
Quote from: Berkut on November 04, 2021, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2021, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 03:15:30 PM
I am rather confident that this new "experiment" is almost certainly better then a 50 year old dorm room.
I lived in a dorm older than that. Nice building; far superior to the Charlie Munger School of Architecture.
I don't see why we stop here. Why not have Eric Trump propose the physics syllabus and Elon Musk draw up plays for the football team? Money should decide.
If either of them want to fund a physics syllabus and some school is dumb enough to go for it, then I sure as hell don't care.
You should not treat universities like a commodity. The academy matters and should not be up to the highest bidder.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 05, 2021, 12:10:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 04, 2021, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2021, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 03:15:30 PM
I am rather confident that this new "experiment" is almost certainly better then a 50 year old dorm room.
I lived in a dorm older than that. Nice building; far superior to the Charlie Munger School of Architecture.
I don't see why we stop here. Why not have Eric Trump propose the physics syllabus and Elon Musk draw up plays for the football team? Money should decide.
If either of them want to fund a physics syllabus and some school is dumb enough to go for it, then I sure as hell don't care.
You should not treat universities like a commodity. The academy matters and should not be up to the highest bidder.
Lucky for us, that is not the case.
Either the building is up to code, and then things should be fine (and if they're not then the state has a pretty big problem that goes way beyond college dorms). Or it's not up to code, and then presumably a high-profile case like this will be caught before it puts anyone in danger. I don't know local law, so I don't know at which point it becomes a crime, but I assume at the very latest when people move in.
I fail to see a big problem. Seems to me that what some people fear is that it won't be a failure...
I really don't care about the rooms, window - after all, it is just freshman. Hell, even throw out the fire codes.
However, the campus itself at Santa Barbara is a gorgeous one, well thought out and integrated. It is truly unique. This building doesn't fit that. It would be like building an artificial hill in London or flying in a giant penis into space - terribly thought out and reeking of poor planning or hubris.
Quote from: Berkut on November 05, 2021, 11:02:39 AM
...and if some school decides to whore their academic credentials out, then that will be reflected in the quality of their graduates and program.
I am sure there are plenty of physics programs out there that produce crappy physicists for a variety of reasons.
There are indeed many reasons why programs may be crappy. but providing a crappy product because you have been bribed to do it is a particularly awful reason.
QuoteIt is surprising how reactionary people can be....even in something as innocuous as college dorm rooms.
The issue isn't whether a college is building crappy dorm rooms; that is also something that happens all the time.
The issue is what it means to be a university and what it means to have integrity. All universities face the pressures of fund raising and the potential conflicts between their own academic missions and the desires of donors and rich alumni. I'm not a babe in the woods, I understand compromises are made. But there is a difference between compromising and being compromised and this crosses that line. It's one thing to have a donor endow a chair or fund a new academic department - quite another for the donor to start dictating how the classes are going to be taught. And its one thing for a donor to put their name on the building they endow, or even participate in the selection of the architect, but quite another to dictate the design.
It has nothing to do with the aesthetic merits of the architectural proposal or the person of Charlie Munger (who I respect).
But he isn't trying to donate to a college. If he wanted to do that, he would do that.
He is trying to try to see if a new design might work and be better.
This is much more like someone saying "Hey, I think it would be cool if we found out if there was amino acids in the ocean of Triton. Now, I don't know the first thing about how to go about that, but I have a shitload of money!"
I don't think it is at all untoward for someone to fund a project to find that out. I don't see how this is any different.
If some particular school doesn't care to find out, then fine - don't take his money. Just like if your astronomy department doesn't think finding out if there are amino acids on Triton is a good use of their time or your money, they won't ask for the grant.
I don't see this as an integrity issue at all. It is someone who wants to find something out, and is actually willing to put up their own money to do so.
Hell, if you want to worry about university integrity, there is a lot more worrisome things going on that this - like pharma funding drug research for profit via universitites.
Quote from: Berkut on November 05, 2021, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 05, 2021, 12:10:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 04, 2021, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2021, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 03:15:30 PM
I am rather confident that this new "experiment" is almost certainly better then a 50 year old dorm room.
I lived in a dorm older than that. Nice building; far superior to the Charlie Munger School of Architecture.
I don't see why we stop here. Why not have Eric Trump propose the physics syllabus and Elon Musk draw up plays for the football team? Money should decide.
If either of them want to fund a physics syllabus and some school is dumb enough to go for it, then I sure as hell don't care.
You should not treat universities like a commodity. The academy matters and should not be up to the highest bidder.
Lucky for us, that is not the case.
But you said you would not care, so indeed we are lucky more people do care than dont :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 05, 2021, 01:16:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 05, 2021, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 05, 2021, 12:10:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 04, 2021, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2021, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 03:15:30 PM
I am rather confident that this new "experiment" is almost certainly better then a 50 year old dorm room.
I lived in a dorm older than that. Nice building; far superior to the Charlie Munger School of Architecture.
I don't see why we stop here. Why not have Eric Trump propose the physics syllabus and Elon Musk draw up plays for the football team? Money should decide.
If either of them want to fund a physics syllabus and some school is dumb enough to go for it, then I sure as hell don't care.
You should not treat universities like a commodity. The academy matters and should not be up to the highest bidder.
Lucky for us, that is not the case.
But you said you would not care, so indeed we are lucky more people do care than dont :P
And of course I said nothing of the kind. But thanks for playing. You can tell because my post doesn't say anything like what your strawman says.
Again, the emotional reaction to a new dorm design really is fascinating.
Quote from: Berkut on November 05, 2021, 01:11:13 PM
But he isn't trying to donate to a college. If he wanted to do that, he would do that.
He is trying to try to see if a new design might work and be better.
Of course he is donating: "The construction of Munger Hall will fulfill visions for both UC Santa Barbara and
the donor, Charles Munger. " https://sam.ucsb.edu/campus-planning-design/current-projects/munger-hall
If what you said was really his goal, why not buy land adjoining the university, construct the building, make it available to enrolled students, and see how many take up his offer?
THAT would be a proper market test.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 05, 2021, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 05, 2021, 01:11:13 PM
But he isn't trying to donate to a college. If he wanted to do that, he would do that.
He is trying to try to see if a new design might work and be better.
Of course he is donating: "The construction of Munger Hall will fulfill visions for both UC Santa Barbara and the donor, Charles Munger. " https://sam.ucsb.edu/campus-planning-design/current-projects/munger-hall
If what you said was really his goal, why not buy land adjoining the university, construct the building, make it available to enrolled students, and see how many take up his offer?
THAT would be a proper market test.
Come on Minksy. You are just playing semantics now.
I meant if he wanted to just generically donate money for the college to do what they like with it, he would do that.
That is not his goal here.
And your example would be a test for a new type of non-dorm, off campus housing. Not at all the same thing. Although if he wanted to do that, he certainly could - why do you think he doesn't just do that?
But really, this is most definitely talked out. I still do not see the objection here. He isn't asking some school to compromise their academic standards. He just wants to try a new dorm. Maybe its dumb. Maybe not. I still don't see the problem with trying, and I think the idea that somehow doing so will compromise some lofty ideals of academic integrity are rather seriously over-egging the pudding.
He's asking the school to treat their students as guinea pigs in vast social experiment being run by an unqualified dilettante. That's fine if you are running some Ayn Randish-inspired dystopia. Or a brothel. But there is only one ethical way for a self-respecting university to respond to such a proposal: no thank you.
People use students as guinea pigs all the time. Universities try different things constantly - it's how they improve, and hence are "treating their students as guinea pigs" every time they try out a new instructor, or change the format of a class, or build a new dorm that isn't a carbon copy of the old dorm.
To say that different dorm rooms are by definition a "dystopia" is rather silly. I have no idea how Ayn Rand got involved. Much less brothels.
I guess if you look at a different dorm room design and being akin to running a brothel designed by Ayn Rand for Mad Max, I can see how this would be alarming. Just not sure how you get there....
I mean we let worse people launder their reputations by naming buildings or entire departments (Oxford just auctioned off the naming rights to the world's oldest seat in moral philosophy).
He's an unqualified dilettante - but again, even worse than the billionaires in need of reputation laundering are architects. They're responsible for so many unworkable, useless Stirling prize winning buildings based on their own ideological and social views. So I don't really see the problem except it's someone outside the guild imposing their nightmare on residents.
When I was at university there was a very expensive new library (named after someone in private equity I think) that won shedloads of awards for its innovative and fairly attractive design. Unfortunately, everyone hated working in it and all the exciting promised features/ideas didn't work so the university had to spend a shedload on remedial work. Or the award-winning school that got rid of classrooms to have common learning spaces that lasted one term before they had to start installing portakabin classrooms with walls :lol:
Quote from: Berkut on November 05, 2021, 01:18:14 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 05, 2021, 01:16:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 05, 2021, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 05, 2021, 12:10:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 04, 2021, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2021, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2021, 03:15:30 PM
I am rather confident that this new "experiment" is almost certainly better then a 50 year old dorm room.
I lived in a dorm older than that. Nice building; far superior to the Charlie Munger School of Architecture.
I don't see why we stop here. Why not have Eric Trump propose the physics syllabus and Elon Musk draw up plays for the football team? Money should decide.
If either of them want to fund a physics syllabus and some school is dumb enough to go for it, then I sure as hell don't care.
You should not treat universities like a commodity. The academy matters and should not be up to the highest bidder.
Lucky for us, that is not the case.
But you said you would not care, so indeed we are lucky more people do care than dont :P
And of course I said nothing of the kind. But thanks for playing. You can tell because my post doesn't say anything like what your strawman says.
Again, the emotional reaction to a new dorm design really is fascinating.
Your statement can only make sense if you are drawing a distinction between you saying you do not care about one university doing it being different from the academy as a whole. That I suppose makes sense since you also use free market logic that students can just avoid the bad universities. the point you are missing is that the universities you are not caring about are also part of the academy.
I am in no way reacting to the dorm design. More to your idiotic stance on not caring if the rich can dictate how courses are taught. It shows such a incredible lack of understanding of the importance of academic freedom and integrity.
Saying that this dorm project is okay because, hey, it's just an experiment and maybe it will work so why get worked up about it ignores the reality that this is a very, very expensive gamble ($1.3B+) for the university and commits them to have 1/3 of their dorm population assigned to it.
There have been other Munger dorms built, on a much smaller basis (650 rooms of graduate housing at Michigan, cost $150M, and four buildings (600 rooms) for graduate housing at Stanford) and the only drawbacks that students at Michigan found were the very things that the UCSB building emphasizes: the lack of windows and natural air circulation.
This is not just an experimental housing unit, it is a massive gamble with significant downside (including, as PDH and I have noted, the creation of a significant eyesore on the most beautiful campus on earth), and the only reason it is being built like this is because it gratifies the ego of Charles Munger.
Quote from: Berkut on November 05, 2021, 02:26:05 PM
To say that different dorm rooms are by definition a "dystopia" is rather silly. I have no idea how Ayn Rand got involved. Much less brothels...
I know you have a soft spot.
For Ayn Rand. Don't know about brothels.