Are there any wargames (computer or board) that model the Persian wars, as described in Herodotus?
Quote from: Malthus on July 21, 2009, 03:44:11 PM
Are there any wargames (computer or board) that model the Persian wars, as described in Herodotus?
Spartan w/ Gates of Troy expansion, Sorta. I find the game easy and about as historical as a Tim map.
Quote from: Malthus on July 21, 2009, 03:44:11 PM
Are there any wargames (computer or board) that model the Persian wars, as described in Herodotus?
They grow up so fast, don't they?
Quote from: Malthus on July 21, 2009, 03:44:11 PM
Are there any wargames (computer or board) that model the Persian wars, as described in Herodotus?
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1033
There is a Salamis game, IIRC.
It is kind of an under-represented period. I can think of two reasons for that:
1) The source material isn't very good. Herodotus is a fine writer but as a reporter of accurate and useful military information he isn't on the level of Thucydides, Xenophon, Ptolemy (by way of Arrian and others), Caesar, etc. What is a game designer supposed to do when the most important source of information on a campaign makes plainly outlandish claims like a 2 million man Persian army?
(then again - GMT is apparently releasing a game of ancient chariot battles that includes scenarios like Troy so perhaps this is not sufficient explanation).
2) The two major land battles -- Marathon and Plataea - aren't really that interesting as battles for sim purposes. Basically the little info we have suggests that the Persian infantry simply wasn't up the the task and was utterly crushed. The Persians kept seeking opportunities to use their cavalry in open ground and the Greeks weren't dumb enough to bite. I suppose you could make a Great Battles of History kind of game where the Persian infantry just sits in a terrible position and gets cut to ribbons, but what would be the point? There is also Thermopylae which is of great historical interest but doesn't really make for a very interesting war game.
Malthus, if you're vaguely interested in the region/broad period, there are multiple games out there that deal with Alexander's empire and successor states, at least one of which is considered a "classic".
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 22, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
There is a Salamis game, IIRC.
It is kind of an under-represented period. I can think of two reasons for that:
1) The source material isn't very good. Herodotus is a fine writer but as a reporter of accurate and useful military information he isn't on the level of Thucydides, Xenophon, Ptolemy (by way of Arrian and others), Caesar, etc. What is a game designer supposed to do when the most important source of information on a campaign makes plainly outlandish claims like a 2 million man Persian army?
(then again - GMT is apparently releasing a game of ancient chariot battles that includes scenarios like Troy so perhaps this is not sufficient explanation).
2) The two major land battles -- Marathon and Plataea - aren't really that interesting as battles for sim purposes. Basically the little info we have suggests that the Persian infantry simply wasn't up the the task and was utterly crushed. The Persians kept seeking opportunities to use their cavalry in open ground and the Greeks weren't dumb enough to bite. I suppose you could make a Great Battles of History kind of game where the Persian infantry just sits in a terrible position and gets cut to ribbons, but what would be the point? There is also Thermopylae which is of great historical interest but doesn't really make for a very interesting war game.
Makes sense. No doubt one would just have to invent the numbers on the Persian side.
It would make a better strategic than tactical concept. It would be kind on heat to somehow work in the impact of the various oracles and the effect of pre-battle sacrifices and the like.
Certainly one could have interesting battles of numbers and variety vs. quality (not forgetting that the Persians had some Greek infantry as well).
Almost makes me want to design one myself. :D
Quote from: Caliga on July 22, 2009, 03:00:26 PM
Malthus, if you're vaguely interested in the region/broad period, there are multiple games out there that deal with Alexander's empire and successor states, at least one of which is considered a "classic".
Which is the classic?
I suppose I could have been more specific in my response. ^_^
http://www.gmtgames.com/p-117-successors.aspx (http://www.gmtgames.com/p-117-successors.aspx)
The original version by Avalon Hill was one of the first card-driven games, which is the dominant form for grand strategy consims now. In fact it may have been the original... it was either that or Mark Herman's original We The People design... I always forget.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 22, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
There is a Salamis game, IIRC.
It is kind of an under-represented period. I can think of two reasons for that:
1) The source material isn't very good. Herodotus is a fine writer but as a reporter of accurate and useful military information he isn't on the level of Thucydides, Xenophon, Ptolemy (by way of Arrian and others), Caesar, etc. What is a game designer supposed to do when the most important source of information on a campaign makes plainly outlandish claims like a 2 million man Persian army?
(then again - GMT is apparently releasing a game of ancient chariot battles that includes scenarios like Troy so perhaps this is not sufficient explanation).
Guess the OOB.
Quote from: Caliga on July 22, 2009, 03:11:31 PM
The original version by Avalon Hill was one of the first card-driven games, which is the dominant form for grand strategy consims now. In fact it may have been the original... it was either that or Mark Herman's original We The People design... I always forget.
We The People.
Try EU: Rome
Successors appears to have an ACTS module, too, which is nice.
GMT has the Great Battles of History series which is like 10 games now plus expansions. They also have the Command and Colors ancient series which is the same idea only with a much more simplified rule set. And they have a block game for the Peloponnesian war coming out soon that looks pretty promising.
Also the guy that did that Rommel game recently released a solitaire game based on the campaigns of Alexander the Great.
There are also a couple of ancients miniatures systems out there, none of which I am familiar with.
GBOH has a weird feel to it that I don't like... I have the Cataphract game and IIRC the basic rules are way too basic, and the advanced rules are way too complicated. I think Richard Berg was involved in the game as a designer or developer, and I don't typically like his game designs, so that might have something to do with it... he has a tendency to throw weird bits of esoterica into his rules which I always assumed was some way of showing off his MAD LEET history knowledge.
OTOH his Geronimo! game is one of my all-time favorites, so he has done some excellent work.
Quote from: Caliga on July 22, 2009, 03:21:09 PM
GBOH has a weird feel to it that I don't like... I have the Cataphract game and IIRC the basic rules are way too basic, and the advanced rules are way too complicated. I think Richard Berg was involved in the game as a designer or developer, and I don't typically like his game designs, so that might have something to do with it... he has a tendency to throw weird bits of esoterica into his rules which I always assumed was some way of showing off his MAD LEET history knowledge.
OTOH his Geronimo! game is one of my all-time favorites, so he has done some excellent work.
I liked the
Gringo Davey Twiggs Diarrhea rule. But yeah, too much chrome in most of his games.
It's not just that aspect of his designs that annoys me... there's something about his writing style that often confuses me. I guess I may just be on a different wavelength, but I often find his base rule definitions unclear, and need a playthrough example to understand what he means.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 22, 2009, 03:17:09 PMThere are also a couple of ancients miniatures systems out there, none of which I am familiar with.
Malthus, if you're into the miniatures stuff let me know and I can give you a few pointers.
Have you tried Europa Barbarorum? It is a mod for R:TW, totally changes it. Insane historical accuracy, about as much as you can get out of the engine. Link. (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/)
Obviously the period is quite a bit different, as you will find that trying to stave off a Parthian cataphract force as the Common Hellenes will be....difficult, no matter the terrain.
Quote from: Caliga on July 22, 2009, 03:21:09 PM
GBOH has a weird feel to it that I don't like... I have the Cataphract game and IIRC the basic rules are way too basic, and the advanced rules are way too complicated. I think Richard Berg was involved in the game as a designer or developer, and I don't typically like his game designs, so that might have something to do with it... he has a tendency to throw weird bits of esoterica into his rules which I always assumed was some way of showing off his MAD LEET history knowledge.
Richard Berg is the smartest man he knows, and don't you forget it or he'll remind you.
QuoteOTOH his Geronimo! game is one of my all-time favorites, so he has done some excellent work.
One of the only games I've ever bought and promptly sold fast as I could. Gack, what a snoozer.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 22, 2009, 03:25:39 PM
I liked the Gringo Davey Twiggs Diarrhea rule.
I always preferred the Captain-Jack-Shoots-You-Point-Fucking-Blank-At-The-Treaty-Table-And-How-Do-You-Like-Them-Apples-Paleface action card.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2009, 09:02:04 PMOne of the only games I've ever bought and promptly sold fast as I could. Gack, what a snoozer.
:unsure: I really liked the game dynamics (i.e. the side switching and all). Also, gradually wiping out the Red Menace warmed my heart.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 22, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
GMT is apparently releasing a game of ancient chariot battles that includes scenarios like Troy
I seem to recall that there are a couple of old games on the Trojan War (and in this instance, by "old" I mean mid-to-late seventies vintage) but I can't remember the names.
Quote from: Queequeg on July 22, 2009, 08:43:30 PM
Have you tried Europa Barbarorum? It is a mod for R:TW, totally changes it. Insane historical accuracy, about as much as you can get out of the engine. Link. (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/)
Obviously the period is quite a bit different, as you will find that trying to stave off a Parthian cataphract force as the Common Hellenes will be....difficult, no matter the terrain.
What happened to the supposed Europa Barbarorum for EU:Rome anyway?
This game looks pretty promising: http://www.gmtgames.com/p-142-hellenes.aspx
The examples of play seem intringuing and the designer has a good track record. And you can sacrifice to the gods.
I also think the Pelo War is a very suitable subject for wargaming as well - there are land and naval actions; a breadth of potential alternative strategies; contrast of different capabilities; interesting leaders.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 24, 2009, 11:13:31 AM
This game looks pretty promising: http://www.gmtgames.com/p-142-hellenes.aspx
block games :bleeding:
Quote from: Caliga on July 24, 2009, 11:56:10 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 24, 2009, 11:13:31 AM
This game looks pretty promising: http://www.gmtgames.com/p-142-hellenes.aspx
block games :bleeding:
I'm a convert to block games mister! :mad:
:P
Hopefully Hellenes will be better than Columbia's Athens and Sparta out of the box.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2009, 11:57:19 AM
I'm a convert to block games mister! :mad:
They anger me. For one, alot of them require you to rotate the block to reflect unit damage, and inevitably some clumsy fuck bumps the table and screws everything up.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2009, 11:57:19 AM
Hopefully Hellenes will be better than Columbia's Athens and Sparta out of the box.
This is the guy who did all the Front games.
Quote from: Caliga on July 24, 2009, 11:58:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2009, 11:57:19 AM
I'm a convert to block games mister! :mad:
They anger me. For one, alot of them require you to rotate the block to reflect unit damage, and inevitably some clumsy fuck bumps the table and screws everything up.
That's the problem with Kentucky gamers - the whiskey to gameplay ratio is too high to handle anything that isn't nailed down.
Quote from: Caliga on July 24, 2009, 11:56:10 AM
block games
Europe Engulfed. :)
Hellenes looks awesome, by the way.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 24, 2009, 12:13:06 PM
That's the problem with Kentucky gamers - the whiskey to gameplay ratio is too high to handle anything that isn't nailed down.
I haven't touched a block game since I was in Massachusetts. Some dork at MIT kept trying to make us play them.
Quote from: Caliga on July 24, 2009, 11:58:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2009, 11:57:19 AM
I'm a convert to block games mister! :mad:
They anger me. For one, alot of them require you to rotate the block to reflect unit damage, and inevitably some clumsy fuck bumps the table and screws everything up.
You know what angers me? EVERY DAMN GAME HAS CARDS. FUCK THOSE CDG's.
Oh, that reminds me that I am up in my game of PoG with Habs!
I've never payed a block game.
Quote from: Malthus on July 24, 2009, 03:52:44 PM
I've never payed a block game.
A fun one:
http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=3215
The rules are on the site.
Quote from: Threviel on July 24, 2009, 08:08:09 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on July 22, 2009, 08:43:30 PM
Have you tried Europa Barbarorum? It is a mod for R:TW, totally changes it. Insane historical accuracy, about as much as you can get out of the engine. Link. (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/)
Obviously the period is quite a bit different, as you will find that trying to stave off a Parthian cataphract force as the Common Hellenes will be....difficult, no matter the terrain.
What happened to the supposed Europa Barbarorum for EU:Rome anyway?
Unless it expands into Persia, or even better the Punjab, I won't go out of my way to play EU:Rome.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2009, 03:55:02 PM
A fun one:
http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=3215
The rules are on the site.
Yeah, Hammer of the Scots is very good.
So is Crusader Rex: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8481
Different style of block game than those two, but the Command & Colors: Ancients are very good too: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/14105
Quote from: Berkut on July 24, 2009, 03:51:18 PM
Oh, that reminds me that I am up in my game of PoG with Habs!
I figured you were just trying to avoid losing it as long as possible.
Quote from: Habbaku on July 24, 2009, 05:27:05 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 24, 2009, 03:51:18 PM
Oh, that reminds me that I am up in my game of PoG with Habs!
I figured you were just trying to avoid losing it as long as possible.
He pulls the same trick with me in any thread we argue in. ^_^
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2009, 03:20:12 PM
Quote from: Caliga on July 24, 2009, 11:58:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2009, 11:57:19 AM
I'm a convert to block games mister! :mad:
They anger me. For one, alot of them require you to rotate the block to reflect unit damage, and inevitably some clumsy fuck bumps the table and screws everything up.
You know what angers me? EVERY DAMN GAME HAS CARDS. FUCK THOSE CDG's.
Preach it brother!
Quote from: Queequeg on July 24, 2009, 04:11:49 PM
Quote from: Threviel on July 24, 2009, 08:08:09 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on July 22, 2009, 08:43:30 PM
Have you tried Europa Barbarorum? It is a mod for R:TW, totally changes it. Insane historical accuracy, about as much as you can get out of the engine. Link. (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/)
Obviously the period is quite a bit different, as you will find that trying to stave off a Parthian cataphract force as the Common Hellenes will be....difficult, no matter the terrain.
What happened to the supposed Europa Barbarorum for EU:Rome anyway?
Unless it expands into Persia, or even better the Punjab, I won't go out of my way to play EU:Rome.
The map could be changed couldn't it? I was thinking about some dude claiming to represent Europa Barbarorum that before release was talking about how they would make EB for EU:R. He was quite active but I don't know what happened to the plans.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 24, 2009, 12:11:19 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2009, 11:57:19 AM
Hopefully Hellenes will be better than Columbia's Athens and Sparta out of the box.
This is the guy who did all the Front games.
Read an article he wrote about the systmen used in those games. He points (correctly) that most board games do a terrible job of simulating the fog of war and the uncertainty it leads to, and that the block system does this much better than other wargames, but the problem IMO is that it doesn't let you learn much about any other aspects of the campaign or battle being simulated.
I've also talked to the guy at Origins a couple of times. Seems like an OK dude.
Quote from: dps on July 25, 2009, 07:12:20 PM
Read an article he wrote about the systmen used in those games. He points (correctly) that most board games do a terrible job of simulating the fog of war and the uncertainty it leads to, and that the block system does this much better than other wargames, but the problem IMO is that it doesn't let you learn much about any other aspects of the campaign or battle being simulated.
My 2c is that the best designs and most playable games come from a conscious understanding that you have make clear decisions about what you are going to model and what you aren't - and then focus on the simplest, most elegant way to capture the elements you want to focus on. EastFront does a very good job of capturing thongs like feints, operational surprise, limited resources, and logistics. It does what it does and it does it well.
Bowen Simmons' design articles also provide a good, detailed example of these principles being carried out.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 27, 2009, 10:54:08 AM
Quote from: dps on July 25, 2009, 07:12:20 PM
Read an article he wrote about the systmen used in those games. He points (correctly) that most board games do a terrible job of simulating the fog of war and the uncertainty it leads to, and that the block system does this much better than other wargames, but the problem IMO is that it doesn't let you learn much about any other aspects of the campaign or battle being simulated.
My 2c is that the best designs and most playable games come from a conscious understanding that you have make clear decisions about what you are going to model and what you aren't - and then focus on the simplest, most elegant way to capture the elements you want to focus on. EastFront does a very good job of capturing thongs like feints, operational surprise, limited resources, and logistics. It does what it does and it does it well.
I agree--pretty much all the block games from Columbia Games do what they're designed to do, and do it well. They just aren't what I'm looking for in wargames, for the most part.