Poll
Good choice, we definitely have the snazziest uniforms.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Fernando_%C3%81lvarez_de_Toledo%2C_III_Duque_de_Alba%2C_por_Antonio_Moro.jpg)
OK Martim.
Yeah I am voting for this personal union between Canada and the Netherlands.
Not so much Lumbergh, as giving off the vibe of a fundy trying but failing to hide puritanical insanity.
Some of the photos don't show up, he's one of them.
But here's our fascist pretender:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.duimspijker.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F10%2Fimg_2023-1-1024x615.jpg&hash=f77da81626bcec5cbf913c8c4bc2eca5b9b2f41f)
So fancy bleached hair is no longer fascist?! :o
Not sure about Philip.
Good to see that the Spanish - Austrian connection is still strong after the centuries. :lol:
That's the Green Party.
(https://hebspeaks.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/sideburnsmemesimpsons.jpg?w=775)
Three piece suits and bow ties in politics are a universal red flag.
She got my vote, even though I realize she is plotting to nail a cute animal to her ex's front door.
#1 current PM, Liberals
#2 Yes, a racist.
#3 Christian democrats
#4 Greens
#5 Socialists
#6 Very much Christians
#7 Animal rights party
#8 Fundamentalist Christians
#9 Unity party, led by one of the most divisive politicians
#10 Racist who couldn't stand the other racists
Pictures not showing
- Thierry Baudet, a racist
- Centrist democrats
- Labour, about to go UK Labour's way
- Seniors party
She would be in the lead by traditional Languish European election metrics, but the grim expression in the photo cost her.
Still like him better than Steinbrenner.
:lol:
Not really fair as it's only the last two months. But yeah, they are stretching it pretty thin.
No, there is a difference. A fully rightwing coalition is not possible as nobody wants to touch the two freak shows.
D66 is the next best choice, and a dependable partner, but they don't want to be the only non-right wing party in the coalition, as they were the past four years. If they are in a position of relative strength they may be able the get a leftwing party on board (PvdA/Labour for instance, another projected winner).
No reason the Dutch get to experience good governance and sane politics while all the world is burning around them :P
Yeah, couple of errors in there. Fixed now, and the exit poll typically has a +/- 2 margin of error.
edit: updated again
Yeah, I'm hoping it's to do with Covid anger and fear, but it does seem to be a larger trend.
That said, a lot of more rightwing parties have been peddling traditionally left themes, like raising minimum wage and worker protection.
So the traditional leftwing voice isn't as distinctive anymore. It's a nasty blow to climate goals, though.
The bible belt is a real thing here :yes:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/23/73/1b23738fe8266752118a6186813b0447.png)
Despite the best efforts of the Spanish left, overall the Iberian left still survives!
PCP is in real decline, and the leftists of BE are just useful idiots, of the PS though. :P
I wonder if that party is the only openly religious/confessional political party in Europe. Or maybe some of the ones in Northern Ireland are analogous? :hmm:
The green/orange divide is broadly on religious lines but I don't think any of the parties are religious/confessional. Though there'll be differences about their attitudes - so the DUP are socially conservative and influenced by their Protestant roots while the Progressive Unionist Party is ideologically on the left. It's more like two competing nationalisms over the same tiny chunk of land with left and right within those nationalisms.
Also in the Netherlands, there is the islamo-leftist Denk party, in the Erdogan orbit, with a good dose of taqiya so not openly confessional.
Very interesting analysis of young voters, almost none of them voted CDA, PvdA or SP.
Three traditional pillars of the old order, totally unable to connect with the new generations in a way VVD and D66 can.
Hopefully this will lead to some changes on the left, the merger of PvdA and GL would be a start.
Yeah, ten or so would be better. But I'll take fifteen over five.
excellent
It does seem to suggest the importance of culture/values/identity as key drivers, perhaps especially with younger voters.
I have hopes for D66 now, as I've always found them one of the most frustrating/disappointing parties in Europe. But now they can't just fold and have the numbers to make some demands - hopefully.
Not as striking as a Brit being so well versed in Dutch politics. Let me post this political compass for anyone else interested.
(https://i.ibb.co/5R1Qgg7/komp.jpg)
But yes, good point. Identity as a driver for (young) voters is definitely a reason the the emergence of all those new parties. And new parties that actually won seats, too.
Now that the final count is near, the situation for D66 is less rosy. They're down to 24 seats, VVD up one or two.
Two main roads to a coalition are now likely:
- VVD, D66, CDA and a small fourth party. D66 doesn't really want CDA in the coalition, as they're blocking medical-ethical reforms. But there's no real alternative unless you consider a five-party coalition, which nobody really wants. The fourth party could be Volt, ideologically very close to D66 but they're new and unproven. The other minnows are either too radical voor VVD or too conservative for D66.
- A minority coalition of VVD, D66 and CDA. The will need to ask support for everything, but with so many parties that could be manageable. Still, CDA will need to bow to D66's demands on ethics. They might pass on governing instead, and not alienate their voters any further.
Yeah, without knowing more about the different parties and their fault lines, I don't see what's the point of a separate Socialist and Labour party, or separate Green and Animals party, or two different christian democrat parties.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY
That's a given. :lol: Then again most of those splitters don't get into parliament. :P
Broadly yes. Economic vs social issues.
SP comes from a revolutionary idea, Labour does not. SP is populist, anti-Europe and anti-globalisation, Labour is not.
Of the three Christian parties CU is the most progressive, especially on climate matters. CDA prefers to keep the status quo, SGP wants to go back a century.
Differences between Animals and Greens are smaller, typically the same goals but different ways of getting there. And the Greens have been trying to make themselves attractive as coalition partners, whereas the Animals remain an opposition party.
Frugality is the one thing that unites us :P
Ok, so your Socialists would be what the old school commies would be in many other countries, right?
Regarding Christian Democrats I was meaning CU and CDA. The calvinists are such an oddity to me that I can't even calibrate them. :lol:
The Dutch Greens must feel somehow closer to the German ones, right? At least in terms of becoming (or wanting to become) a serious coalition partner rather than a protest/oposition party like the Animals, which I guess are still in their political infancy and maybe only want to bring their issue to the public rather than participate in governing.
I read somewhere than one of the reasons why the Dutch are now more vocal in EU forums about frugality is actually because of Brexit, as it was the UK the who did most of their talking points in the past and they were more comfortable supporting from the background.
It will be interesting to see in the future how Brexit changes political attitudes in the EU, and this might be one of the first rearrangements.
I think probably the Dutch, Scandis, Irish, Baltics and maybe some others.
Catholic profligacy. :P
The emergence of the Frugal Four (Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden) would be the first sign, IMO.
But I think that's probably only the beginning and it'll actually not be a fixed bloc so much as different coalitions on different issues. For example I think UK Euroscepticism about EU work on foreign and defence policy (and the view that it's a risk to NATO) will probably be picked up by the Baltics and Poland mainly rather than the Frugal Four.
Yeah, it will depend on the topic for sure. Visegrad is another contrarian bloc, too, but it predates Brexit. Don't know how they'll be affected, though.
I'm not sure about Visegrad - that pre-dates those countries joining the EU and I don't think it's been terribly effective within the EU, it's more often just a short-hand for Poland and Hungary. But used to be made up of good Europeans like Tusk. I think they only thing they definitely agree on is keeping the EU money flowing - I know they all disagree on foreign policy/Russia and I'm not even sure they all agree on rule of law issues or if that's just Poland and Hungary.
The Socialist were still the largest party in areas of the northeast and southeast up until this election. The northern socialists evolved from hardline communists, there are still a couple of Lenin statues out there. Interestingly, they have now turned from extreme left to extreme right (FvD), whereas the more traditional southern socialists have fragmented between VVD and D66.
CU is reformed, too. They will ally with SGP sometimes as a joint party.
Yeah the Dutch and German Greens seem fairly similar. I have to say the Animals have matured a lot from their shrill beginnings, but they have no intention of governing.
Yes, the UK was a great ally of the VVD in particular, in European matters.
But the IDR makes clear our core security interest is the Euro-Atlantic and Russia is the "most acute" threat to the UK. Russian re-armament, especially of nukes and battlefield nukes, for example is the big driver of the UK increasing it's number of nukes to roughly the level of France - and, arguably, to Britain becoming like France a shameless and transparent nuclear power.
Edit: And incidentally the bit takeaway seems to be that the focus of the UK is science and tech - that's the theme tying everything together in the IDR and especially cyber security and space - again, areas the French have recently announced a focus on.
I knew he was bad, just not that bad :P
Question: choose
Option 1: 
votes: 1
votes: 1
Option 2: 
votes: 1
votes: 1
Option 3: 
votes: 1
votes: 1
Option 4: 
votes: 1
votes: 1
Option 5: 
votes: 2
votes: 2
Option 6: 
votes: 4
votes: 4
Option 7: 
votes: 0
votes: 0
Option 8: 
votes: 0
votes: 0
Option 9: 
votes: 4
votes: 4
Option 10: 
votes: 1
votes: 1
Option 11: 
votes: 0
votes: 0
Option 12: 
votes: 0
votes: 0
Option 13: 
votes: 0
votes: 0
Option 14: 
votes: 7
votes: 7
Option 15: 
votes: 1
votes: 1
Option 16: 
votes: 10
votes: 10
Title: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 11:48:57 AM
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 11:48:57 AM
To celebrate our independence from Spain, we need one of these threads, too :swiss:
A record 37 parties are on the ballot, about 15 of which are expected to get one or more seats.
Without further ado, or explanation, vote!
A record 37 parties are on the ballot, about 15 of which are expected to get one or more seats.
Without further ado, or explanation, vote!
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 11:54:29 AM
Post by: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 11:54:29 AM
The choice is obvious. :P
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2021, 11:56:10 AM
Post by: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2021, 11:56:10 AM
No Thierry Baudet? Fancy hair man is passé. :D
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 11:57:35 AM
Post by: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 11:57:35 AM
Are they all Nazis?
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Habbaku on February 25, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
Post by: Habbaku on February 25, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
I actually know most of these people, so of course I voted for Felipe. :pope:
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 12:00:27 PM
Post by: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 12:00:27 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 25, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
I actually know most of these people, so of course I voted for Felipe. :pope:
Good choice, we definitely have the snazziest uniforms.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Fernando_%C3%81lvarez_de_Toledo%2C_III_Duque_de_Alba%2C_por_Antonio_Moro.jpg)
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 12:03:11 PM
Post by: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 12:03:11 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 25, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
I actually know most of these people
OK Martim.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Zanza on February 25, 2021, 12:03:25 PM
Post by: Zanza on February 25, 2021, 12:03:25 PM
The fourth guy looks like Justin Trudeau.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 25, 2021, 12:05:27 PM
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 25, 2021, 12:05:27 PM
I voted for Clinton.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Valmy on February 25, 2021, 12:06:01 PM
Post by: Valmy on February 25, 2021, 12:06:01 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 25, 2021, 12:03:25 PM
The fourth guy looks like Justin Trudeau.
Yeah I am voting for this personal union between Canada and the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: crazy canuck on February 25, 2021, 12:07:02 PM
Post by: crazy canuck on February 25, 2021, 12:07:02 PM
And I thought Canada had bad choices.
Voted for the only one that looked sane - third from the bottom (headscarf).
Reintegration with Spain was second choice.
Voted for the only one that looked sane - third from the bottom (headscarf).
Reintegration with Spain was second choice.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 12:10:16 PM
Post by: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 12:10:16 PM
Why doesn't Lumbergh have any votes so far?
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 25, 2021, 12:11:56 PM
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 25, 2021, 12:11:56 PM
That one lady looks like Benedict Cumberbatch.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: crazy canuck on February 25, 2021, 12:12:49 PM
Post by: crazy canuck on February 25, 2021, 12:12:49 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 12:10:16 PM
Why doesn't Lumbergh have any votes so far?
Not so much Lumbergh, as giving off the vibe of a fundy trying but failing to hide puritanical insanity.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Syt on February 25, 2021, 12:12:53 PM
Post by: Syt on February 25, 2021, 12:12:53 PM
I went with the only guy who actually bothered to commission a proper portrait painting.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on February 25, 2021, 12:13:31 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on February 25, 2021, 12:13:31 PM
Voted for the crazy eyed lady 5th from the bottom.
She looks like she'll get stuff done (or literally kill you if you try and stop her) :ph34r:
She looks like she'll get stuff done (or literally kill you if you try and stop her) :ph34r:
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 12:15:02 PM
Post by: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 12:15:02 PM
Voted for 3rd from bottom.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 12:18:15 PM
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 12:18:15 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2021, 11:56:10 AM
No Thierry Baudet? Fancy hair man is passé. :D
Some of the photos don't show up, he's one of them.
But here's our fascist pretender:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.duimspijker.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F10%2Fimg_2023-1-1024x615.jpg&hash=f77da81626bcec5cbf913c8c4bc2eca5b9b2f41f)
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2021, 12:19:47 PM
Post by: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2021, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 12:18:15 PMQuote from: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2021, 11:56:10 AM
No Thierry Baudet? Fancy hair man is passé. :D
Some of the photos don't show up, he's one of them.
But here's our fascist pretender:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.duimspijker.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F10%2Fimg_2023-1-1024x615.jpg&hash=f77da81626bcec5cbf913c8c4bc2eca5b9b2f41f)
So fancy bleached hair is no longer fascist?! :o
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 12:20:01 PM
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 12:20:01 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 11:57:35 AM
Are they all Nazis?
Not sure about Philip.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Razgovory on February 25, 2021, 12:20:56 PM
Post by: Razgovory on February 25, 2021, 12:20:56 PM
Man, Beavis has aged since his show with Matt Gaetz back in the 1990's. Look at the crow's feet on that guy. I'll vote for the guy with the bad teeth.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 12:21:07 PM
Post by: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 12:21:07 PM
Quote from: Syt on February 25, 2021, 12:12:53 PM
I went with the only guy who actually bothered to commission a proper portrait painting.
Good to see that the Spanish - Austrian connection is still strong after the centuries. :lol:
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Barrister on February 25, 2021, 12:22:14 PM
Post by: Barrister on February 25, 2021, 12:22:14 PM
So many men in suits to choose from. :wub: Makes this a tough call.
But let's see...
#1 bad hair
#2 worse hair (probably a racist)
#3 long, bad hair
#4 WTF Justin Trudeau?
#5 female not wearing a suit
#6 now it's a three piece suit - I don't trust three piece suits
#7 crazy eyes
#8 red tie. Never vote for someone in a red tie
#9 leather jacket and headscarf? pass
#10 - eh, I guess so
But let's see...
#1 bad hair
#2 worse hair (probably a racist)
#3 long, bad hair
#4 WTF Justin Trudeau?
#5 female not wearing a suit
#6 now it's a three piece suit - I don't trust three piece suits
#7 crazy eyes
#8 red tie. Never vote for someone in a red tie
#9 leather jacket and headscarf? pass
#10 - eh, I guess so
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 12:22:31 PM
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 12:22:31 PM
Quote from: Zanza on February 25, 2021, 12:03:25 PM
The fourth guy looks like Justin Trudeau.
That's the Green Party.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 12:24:23 PM
Post by: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 12:24:23 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 25, 2021, 12:22:14 PM#3 long, bad hair
(https://hebspeaks.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/sideburnsmemesimpsons.jpg?w=775)
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on February 25, 2021, 12:27:16 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on February 25, 2021, 12:27:16 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 25, 2021, 12:22:14 PMYes.
#6 now it's a three piece suit - I don't trust three piece suits
Three piece suits and bow ties in politics are a universal red flag.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: PDH on February 25, 2021, 12:27:29 PM
Post by: PDH on February 25, 2021, 12:27:29 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2021, 12:13:31 PM
Voted for the crazy eyed lady 5th from the bottom.
She looks like she'll get stuff done (or literally kill you if you try and stop her) :ph34r:
She got my vote, even though I realize she is plotting to nail a cute animal to her ex's front door.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on February 25, 2021, 12:28:48 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on February 25, 2021, 12:28:48 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 12:24:23 PMIn fairness running both the Netherlands and Chelsea FC would be a challenge.Quote from: Barrister on February 25, 2021, 12:22:14 PM#3 long, bad hair
(https://hebspeaks.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/sideburnsmemesimpsons.jpg?w=775)
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 12:31:50 PM
Post by: Maladict on February 25, 2021, 12:31:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 25, 2021, 12:22:14 PM
So many men in suits to choose from. :wub: Makes this a tough call.
But let's see...
#1 bad hair
#2 worse hair (probably a racist)
#3 long, bad hair
#4 WTF Justin Trudeau?
#5 female not wearing a suit
#6 now it's a three piece suit - I don't trust three piece suits
#7 crazy eyes
#8 red tie. Never vote for someone in a red tie
#9 leather jacket and headscarf? pass
#10 - eh, I guess so
#1 current PM, Liberals
#2 Yes, a racist.
#3 Christian democrats
#4 Greens
#5 Socialists
#6 Very much Christians
#7 Animal rights party
#8 Fundamentalist Christians
#9 Unity party, led by one of the most divisive politicians
#10 Racist who couldn't stand the other racists
Pictures not showing
- Thierry Baudet, a racist
- Centrist democrats
- Labour, about to go UK Labour's way
- Seniors party
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Caliga on February 25, 2021, 12:42:30 PM
Post by: Caliga on February 25, 2021, 12:42:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 25, 2021, 12:03:11 PM:lmfao:
OK Martim.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Josquius on February 25, 2021, 12:53:30 PM
Post by: Josquius on February 25, 2021, 12:53:30 PM
Harry Potter and wilders I recognise.
Man wilders looks like a puppet these days.
I voted black lady. The sight of wilders triggered my desire to see his head explode. I guess she is also a racist knowing my luck.
Man wilders looks like a puppet these days.
I voted black lady. The sight of wilders triggered my desire to see his head explode. I guess she is also a racist knowing my luck.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Jacob on February 25, 2021, 12:54:23 PM
Post by: Jacob on February 25, 2021, 12:54:23 PM
I voted for I-can't-believe-that's-not-real-Justin-Trudeau.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Caliga on February 25, 2021, 12:59:45 PM
Post by: Caliga on February 25, 2021, 12:59:45 PM
Quote from: Tyr on February 25, 2021, 12:53:30 PMI voted for her too, for the exact same reason. OWN THE RACISTTARDS :cool:
I voted black lady. The sight of wilders triggered my desire to see his head explode.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: celedhring on February 25, 2021, 01:13:59 PM
Post by: celedhring on February 25, 2021, 01:13:59 PM
Again, I vote Felipe mainly because of his Anti-Covid platform of raiding the UK for vaccines.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: DGuller on February 25, 2021, 01:35:22 PM
Post by: DGuller on February 25, 2021, 01:35:22 PM
I voted for Justin Trudeau. Don't mess with success.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Grey Fox on February 25, 2021, 01:44:54 PM
Post by: Grey Fox on February 25, 2021, 01:44:54 PM
Almost voted for Dutch JT but Blonde lady looks like a famous media personality out of Quebec. So she gets my vote.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 25, 2021, 03:48:18 PM
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 25, 2021, 03:48:18 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 25, 2021, 01:44:54 PM
Almost voted for Dutch JT but Blonde lady looks like a famous media personality out of Quebec. So she gets my vote.
She would be in the lead by traditional Languish European election metrics, but the grim expression in the photo cost her.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2021, 05:29:11 PM
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2021, 05:29:11 PM
Voted for #3, the combover. Genuine smile, least chance of being a nut. I hope.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: ulmont on February 25, 2021, 05:30:39 PM
Post by: ulmont on February 25, 2021, 05:30:39 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2021, 12:24:23 PMQuote from: Barrister on February 25, 2021, 12:22:14 PM#3 long, bad hair
(https://hebspeaks.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/sideburnsmemesimpsons.jpg?w=775)
Still like him better than Steinbrenner.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 02:59:34 AM
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 02:59:34 AM
Election day is here, latest polls show nothing too drastic. Slight shift to the right, Rutte to remain firmly in control.
(https://i.ibb.co/k2MJxzF/Clipboard010.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/k2MJxzF/Clipboard010.jpg)
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 08:41:19 AM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 08:41:19 AM
A query - what do Dutch journalists do when the polls during an election are like this? :lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwroSeTWEAEwI77?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwroSeTWEAEwI77?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 17, 2021, 08:52:49 AM
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 17, 2021, 08:52:49 AM
Write stories about the collapse of the solid line yellows?
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 17, 2021, 09:47:38 AM
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 17, 2021, 09:47:38 AM
It looks like D66 has gone up considerably at the expense of the 3 parties ahead of it. Although it's hard to get really excited about a party at 12%. I assume they will support Rutte so there is really little difference.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 10:30:24 AM
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 10:30:24 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 08:41:19 AM
A query - what do Dutch journalists do when the polls during an election are like this? :lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwroSeTWEAEwI77?format=jpg&name=small)
:lol:
Not really fair as it's only the last two months. But yeah, they are stretching it pretty thin.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 11:10:36 AM
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 11:10:36 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 17, 2021, 09:47:38 AM
It looks like D66 has gone up considerably at the expense of the 3 parties ahead of it. Although it's hard to get really excited about a party at 12%. I assume they will support Rutte so there is really little difference.
No, there is a difference. A fully rightwing coalition is not possible as nobody wants to touch the two freak shows.
D66 is the next best choice, and a dependable partner, but they don't want to be the only non-right wing party in the coalition, as they were the past four years. If they are in a position of relative strength they may be able the get a leftwing party on board (PvdA/Labour for instance, another projected winner).
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: viper37 on March 17, 2021, 01:30:14 PM
Post by: viper37 on March 17, 2021, 01:30:14 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 25, 2021, 12:07:02 PMI picked the one that looked like Justin Trudeau's Dutch cousin :P (4th one from the top).
And I thought Canada had bad choices.
Voted for the only one that looked sane - third from the bottom (headscarf).
Reintegration with Spain was second choice.
No reason the Dutch get to experience good governance and sane politics while all the world is burning around them :P
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 17, 2021, 01:34:56 PM
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 17, 2021, 01:34:56 PM
I think you picked the crazier Nazi veep.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 03:13:00 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 03:13:00 PM
Exit poll in, it is a lot more interesting.
The left has been wiped out, and centrist D66 shoots into second place. Interesting coalition talks ahead.
Quote
VVD - 36 (+3)
D66 - 27 (+8)
PVV - 17 (-3)
CDA - 14 (-5)
GroenLinks - 8 (-6)
PvdA - 9 (0)
SP - 8 (-6)
ChristenUnie - 4 (-1)
PvdD - 5 (0)
50Plus - 1 (-3)
SGP - 3 (0)
Denk - 2 (-1)
FvD - 8 (+6)
Volt - 3 (+3)
JA21 - 3 (+3)
BBB - 1 (+1)
Bij1 - 1 (+1)
Turnout 81%
The left has been wiped out, and centrist D66 shoots into second place. Interesting coalition talks ahead.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 03:13:23 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 03:13:23 PM
:o That is exciting.
Edit: Is SP missing?
Edit: Is SP missing?
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 03:18:45 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 17, 2021, 03:18:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 03:13:23 PM
:o That is exciting.
Edit: Is SP missing?
Yeah, couple of errors in there. Fixed now, and the exit poll typically has a +/- 2 margin of error.
edit: updated again
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 06:13:18 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 06:13:18 PM
Amazing thing is the decline of GroenLinks and SP but no recovery of PvdA. Ongoing death of the European left :weep:
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Valmy on March 18, 2021, 01:18:26 AM
Post by: Valmy on March 18, 2021, 01:18:26 AM
I am fascinated that a party like the SGP exists in the Netherlands and that its vote share seems virtually unchanged in 100 years. Fundamentalist Calvinism just holding steady despite everything.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 02:41:56 AM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 02:41:56 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 06:13:18 PM
Amazing thing is the decline of GroenLinks and SP but no recovery of PvdA. Ongoing death of the European left :weep:
Yeah, I'm hoping it's to do with Covid anger and fear, but it does seem to be a larger trend.
That said, a lot of more rightwing parties have been peddling traditionally left themes, like raising minimum wage and worker protection.
So the traditional leftwing voice isn't as distinctive anymore. It's a nasty blow to climate goals, though.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 02:44:44 AM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 02:44:44 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2021, 01:18:26 AM
I am fascinated that a party like the SGP exists in the Netherlands and that its vote share seems virtually unchanged in 100 years. Fundamentalist Calvinism just holding steady despite everything.
The bible belt is a real thing here :yes:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/23/73/1b23738fe8266752118a6186813b0447.png)
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 03:46:21 AM
Post by: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 03:46:21 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 06:13:18 PM
Amazing thing is the decline of GroenLinks and SP but no recovery of PvdA. Ongoing death of the European left :weep:
Despite the best efforts of the Spanish left, overall the Iberian left still survives!
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 18, 2021, 05:03:58 AM
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 18, 2021, 05:03:58 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 03:46:21 AMQuote from: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 06:13:18 PM
Amazing thing is the decline of GroenLinks and SP but no recovery of PvdA. Ongoing death of the European left :weep:
Despite the best efforts of the Spanish left, overall the Iberian left still survives!
PCP is in real decline, and the leftists of BE are just useful idiots, of the PS though. :P
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:15:39 AM
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:15:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 18, 2021, 01:18:26 AM
I am fascinated that a party like the SGP exists in the Netherlands and that its vote share seems virtually unchanged in 100 years. Fundamentalist Calvinism just holding steady despite everything.
I wonder if that party is the only openly religious/confessional political party in Europe. Or maybe some of the ones in Northern Ireland are analogous? :hmm:
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 06:10:00 AM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 06:10:00 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:15:39 AMI can't think of an equivalent - certainly not now.
I wonder if that party is the only openly religious/confessional political party in Europe. Or maybe some of the ones in Northern Ireland are analogous? :hmm:
The green/orange divide is broadly on religious lines but I don't think any of the parties are religious/confessional. Though there'll be differences about their attitudes - so the DUP are socially conservative and influenced by their Protestant roots while the Progressive Unionist Party is ideologically on the left. It's more like two competing nationalisms over the same tiny chunk of land with left and right within those nationalisms.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 18, 2021, 07:55:52 AM
Post by: Duque de Bragança on March 18, 2021, 07:55:52 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 06:10:00 AMQuote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:15:39 AMI can't think of an equivalent - certainly not now.
I wonder if that party is the only openly religious/confessional political party in Europe. Or maybe some of the ones in Northern Ireland are analogous? :hmm:
The green/orange divide is broadly on religious lines but I don't think any of the parties are religious/confessional. Though there'll be differences about their attitudes - so the DUP are socially conservative and influenced by their Protestant roots while the Progressive Unionist Party is ideologically on the left. It's more like two competing nationalisms over the same tiny chunk of land with left and right within those nationalisms.
Also in the Netherlands, there is the islamo-leftist Denk party, in the Erdogan orbit, with a good dose of taqiya so not openly confessional.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 12:04:05 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 12:04:05 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 06:13:18 PM
Amazing thing is the decline of GroenLinks and SP but no recovery of PvdA. Ongoing death of the European left :weep:
Very interesting analysis of young voters, almost none of them voted CDA, PvdA or SP.
Three traditional pillars of the old order, totally unable to connect with the new generations in a way VVD and D66 can.
Hopefully this will lead to some changes on the left, the merger of PvdA and GL would be a start.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
Post by: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
15-ish parties in a 150-seat parliament seems pretty excessive, indeed.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 12:49:06 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 12:49:06 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
15-ish parties in a 150-seat parliament seems pretty excessive, indeed.
Yeah, ten or so would be better. But I'll take fifteen over five.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 18, 2021, 01:21:00 PM
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on March 18, 2021, 01:21:00 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 17, 2021, 06:13:18 PM
Amazing thing is the decline of GroenLinks and SP but no recovery of PvdA. Ongoing death of the European left :weep:
excellent
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 01:26:14 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 01:26:14 PM
Quote from: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 12:04:05 PMI do find the fact that VVD and D66 - both liberal parties - are doing well really striking especially as it was, in the round, a pretty good night for the right-populists/far-right too. The right-liberals and social liberals had a net gain of 11, the various right/far-righ populists had a net gain of 6 and the left had a net loss of 12. And the old mainstream right down by 5-6 to a record low?
Very interesting analysis of young voters, almost none of them voted CDA, PvdA or SP.
Three traditional pillars of the old order, totally unable to connect with the new generations in a way VVD and D66 can.
Hopefully this will lead to some changes on the left, the merger of PvdA and GL would be a start.
It does seem to suggest the importance of culture/values/identity as key drivers, perhaps especially with younger voters.
I have hopes for D66 now, as I've always found them one of the most frustrating/disappointing parties in Europe. But now they can't just fold and have the numbers to make some demands - hopefully.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 01:48:23 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 01:48:23 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 01:26:14 PMQuote from: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 12:04:05 PMI do find the fact that VVD and D66 - both liberal parties - are doing well really striking especially as it was, in the round, a pretty good night for the right-populists/far-right too. The right-liberals and social liberals had a net gain of 11, the various right/far-righ populists had a net gain of 6 and the left had a net loss of 12. And the old mainstream right down by 5-6 to a record low?
Very interesting analysis of young voters, almost none of them voted CDA, PvdA or SP.
Three traditional pillars of the old order, totally unable to connect with the new generations in a way VVD and D66 can.
Hopefully this will lead to some changes on the left, the merger of PvdA and GL would be a start.
It does seem to suggest the importance of culture/values/identity as key drivers, perhaps especially with younger voters.
I have hopes for D66 now, as I've always found them one of the most frustrating/disappointing parties in Europe. But now they can't just fold and have the numbers to make some demands - hopefully.
Not as striking as a Brit being so well versed in Dutch politics. Let me post this political compass for anyone else interested.
(https://i.ibb.co/5R1Qgg7/komp.jpg)
But yes, good point. Identity as a driver for (young) voters is definitely a reason the the emergence of all those new parties. And new parties that actually won seats, too.
Now that the final count is near, the situation for D66 is less rosy. They're down to 24 seats, VVD up one or two.
Two main roads to a coalition are now likely:
- VVD, D66, CDA and a small fourth party. D66 doesn't really want CDA in the coalition, as they're blocking medical-ethical reforms. But there's no real alternative unless you consider a five-party coalition, which nobody really wants. The fourth party could be Volt, ideologically very close to D66 but they're new and unproven. The other minnows are either too radical voor VVD or too conservative for D66.
- A minority coalition of VVD, D66 and CDA. The will need to ask support for everything, but with so many parties that could be manageable. Still, CDA will need to bow to D66's demands on ethics. They might pass on governing instead, and not alienate their voters any further.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2021, 01:55:00 PM
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2021, 01:55:00 PM
Linkes/Rechts on one axis and Progressief/Conservatief on the other is kind of confusing.
Does the first refer to money and the second to cultural issues/immigration?
Does the first refer to money and the second to cultural issues/immigration?
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 01:56:37 PM
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 01:56:37 PM
Quote from: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
15-ish parties in a 150-seat parliament seems pretty excessive, indeed.
Yeah, without knowing more about the different parties and their fault lines, I don't see what's the point of a separate Socialist and Labour party, or separate Green and Animals party, or two different christian democrat parties.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 02:04:05 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 02:04:05 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 01:56:37 PMI agree on some of the single issue parties - like animal rights or the elderly etc. But from my understanding Socialist v Labour is a bit like a very early version of a the facturing of the left we see across Europe (Die Linke, France Insoumise, Podemos etc). I think they actually started as Maoists in post-68 but have only really had success when they've become a more centrist/mainstream hard left party. And, you know, when a Labour politician (a Labour politician!) is the hardline Dutch finance minister during the Eurozone crisis I think it's understandable that you might need a left alternative :lol: <_<
Yeah, without knowing more about the different parties and their fault lines, I don't see what's the point of a separate Socialist and Labour party, or separate Green and Animals party, or two different christian democrat parties.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: crazy canuck on March 18, 2021, 02:04:51 PM
Post by: crazy canuck on March 18, 2021, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 01:56:37 PMQuote from: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
15-ish parties in a 150-seat parliament seems pretty excessive, indeed.
Yeah, without knowing more about the different parties and their fault lines, I don't see what's the point of a separate Socialist and Labour party, or separate Green and Animals party, or two different christian democrat parties.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 02:06:33 PM
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 02:06:33 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 18, 2021, 02:04:51 PMQuote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 01:56:37 PMQuote from: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
15-ish parties in a 150-seat parliament seems pretty excessive, indeed.
Yeah, without knowing more about the different parties and their fault lines, I don't see what's the point of a separate Socialist and Labour party, or separate Green and Animals party, or two different christian democrat parties.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY
That's a given. :lol: Then again most of those splitters don't get into parliament. :P
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 04:56:10 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 04:56:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2021, 01:55:00 PM
Linkes/Rechts on one axis and Progressief/Conservatief on the other is kind of confusing.
Does the first refer to money and the second to cultural issues/immigration?
Broadly yes. Economic vs social issues.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 01:56:37 PMQuote from: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
15-ish parties in a 150-seat parliament seems pretty excessive, indeed.
Yeah, without knowing more about the different parties and their fault lines, I don't see what's the point of a separate Socialist and Labour party, or separate Green and Animals party, or two different christian democrat parties.
SP comes from a revolutionary idea, Labour does not. SP is populist, anti-Europe and anti-globalisation, Labour is not.
Of the three Christian parties CU is the most progressive, especially on climate matters. CDA prefers to keep the status quo, SGP wants to go back a century.
Differences between Animals and Greens are smaller, typically the same goals but different ways of getting there. And the Greens have been trying to make themselves attractive as coalition partners, whereas the Animals remain an opposition party.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 05:06:47 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 05:06:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 02:04:05 PM
when a Labour politician (a Labour politician!) is the hardline Dutch finance minister during the Eurozone crisis I think it's understandable that you might need a left alternative :lol: <_<
Frugality is the one thing that unites us :P
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:46:18 PM
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:46:18 PM
Quote from: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 05:05:30 PMQuote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 01:56:37 PMQuote from: celedhring on March 18, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
15-ish parties in a 150-seat parliament seems pretty excessive, indeed.
Yeah, without knowing more about the different parties and their fault lines, I don't see what's the point of a separate Socialist and Labour party, or separate Green and Animals party, or two different christian democrat parties.
SP comes from a revolutionary idea, Labour does not. SP is populist, anti-Europe and anti-globalisation, Labour is not.
Of the three Christian parties CU is the most progressive, especially on climate matters. CDA prefers to keep the status quo, SGP wants to go back a century.
Differences between Animals and Greens are smaller, typically the same goals but different ways of getting there. And the Greens have been trying to make themselves attractive as coalition partners, whereas the Animals remain an opposition party.
Ok, so your Socialists would be what the old school commies would be in many other countries, right?
Regarding Christian Democrats I was meaning CU and CDA. The calvinists are such an oddity to me that I can't even calibrate them. :lol:
The Dutch Greens must feel somehow closer to the German ones, right? At least in terms of becoming (or wanting to become) a serious coalition partner rather than a protest/oposition party like the Animals, which I guess are still in their political infancy and maybe only want to bring their issue to the public rather than participate in governing.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 05:47:54 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 05:47:54 PM
Quote from: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 05:06:47 PMMonsters :o :PQuote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 02:04:05 PM
when a Labour politician (a Labour politician!) is the hardline Dutch finance minister during the Eurozone crisis I think it's understandable that you might need a left alternative :lol: <_<
Frugality is the one thing that unites us :P
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:50:26 PM
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:50:26 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 05:47:54 PMQuote from: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 05:06:47 PMMonsters :o :PQuote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 02:04:05 PM
when a Labour politician (a Labour politician!) is the hardline Dutch finance minister during the Eurozone crisis I think it's understandable that you might need a left alternative :lol: <_<
Frugality is the one thing that unites us :P
I read somewhere than one of the reasons why the Dutch are now more vocal in EU forums about frugality is actually because of Brexit, as it was the UK the who did most of their talking points in the past and they were more comfortable supporting from the background.
It will be interesting to see in the future how Brexit changes political attitudes in the EU, and this might be one of the first rearrangements.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 05:56:44 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 05:56:44 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:50:26 PMOh definitely. Not just the Dutch I imagine. I think there's a fair few countries like that. They allowed the UK to kick up a fuss opposing any more integration, or pushing for a more liberal approach on regulation (and take the blame for being a "difficult" country), and I think would normally be aligned with Germany as sympathetic but good Europeans who want to find a solution. I think since Brexit Germany will still generally act as the middle power/problem solver, but a number of countries who basically supported the UK position quietly will now be the ones kicking up a fuss and being difficult.
I read somewhere than one of the reasons why the Dutch are now more vocal in EU forums about frugality is actually because of Brexit, as it was the UK the who did most of their talking points in the past and they were more comfortable supporting from the background.
I think probably the Dutch, Scandis, Irish, Baltics and maybe some others.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2021, 05:57:40 PM
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2021, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 05:47:54 PM
Monsters :o :P
Catholic profligacy. :P
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:58:42 PM
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:58:42 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 05:56:44 PMQuote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:50:26 PMOh definitely. Not just the Dutch I imagine. I think there's a fair few countries like that. They allowed the UK to kick up a fuss opposing any more integration, or pushing for a more liberal approach on regulation (and take the blame for being a "difficult" country), and I think would normally be aligned with Germany as sympathetic but good Europeans who want to find a solution. I think since Brexit Germany will still generally act as the middle power/problem solver, but a number of countries who basically supported the UK position quietly will now be the ones kicking up a fuss and being difficult.
I read somewhere than one of the reasons why the Dutch are now more vocal in EU forums about frugality is actually because of Brexit, as it was the UK the who did most of their talking points in the past and they were more comfortable supporting from the background.
I think probably the Dutch, Scandis, Irish, Baltics and maybe some others.
The emergence of the Frugal Four (Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden) would be the first sign, IMO.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 06:06:03 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 06:06:03 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:58:42 PMYeah - I think you're right and I think the covid recovery fund would've been impossible with the UK as a member state.
The emergence of the Frugal Four (Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden) would be the first sign, IMO.
But I think that's probably only the beginning and it'll actually not be a fixed bloc so much as different coalitions on different issues. For example I think UK Euroscepticism about EU work on foreign and defence policy (and the view that it's a risk to NATO) will probably be picked up by the Baltics and Poland mainly rather than the Frugal Four.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 06:10:42 PM
Post by: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 06:10:42 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 06:06:03 PMQuote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:58:42 PMYeah - I think you're right and I think the covid recovery fund would've been impossible with the UK as a member state.
The emergence of the Frugal Four (Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden) would be the first sign, IMO.
But I think that's probably only the beginning and it'll actually not be a fixed bloc so much as different coalitions on different issues. For example I think UK Euroscepticism about EU work on foreign and defence policy (and the view that it's a risk to NATO) will probably be picked up by the Baltics and Poland mainly rather than the Frugal Four.
Yeah, it will depend on the topic for sure. Visegrad is another contrarian bloc, too, but it predates Brexit. Don't know how they'll be affected, though.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2021, 06:14:50 PM
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2021, 06:14:50 PM
It will be interesting to see how the communal borrowing aspect of the EU's Covid recovery program play out.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 06:10:42 PMYeah and in many ways they weren't really aligned with the UK on lots of issues. They quite like EU money, for example :P But the UK and Poland/the Baltics see eye-to-eye on foreign policy, I'm not sure the UK and Hungary do at all.
Yeah, it will depend on the topic for sure. Visegrad is another contrarian bloc, too, but it predates Brexit. Don't know how they'll be affected, though.
I'm not sure about Visegrad - that pre-dates those countries joining the EU and I don't think it's been terribly effective within the EU, it's more often just a short-hand for Poland and Hungary. But used to be made up of good Europeans like Tusk. I think they only thing they definitely agree on is keeping the EU money flowing - I know they all disagree on foreign policy/Russia and I'm not even sure they all agree on rule of law issues or if that's just Poland and Hungary.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 06:24:43 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 06:24:43 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:46:18 PM
Ok, so your Socialists would be what the old school commies would be in many other countries, right?
The Socialist were still the largest party in areas of the northeast and southeast up until this election. The northern socialists evolved from hardline communists, there are still a couple of Lenin statues out there. Interestingly, they have now turned from extreme left to extreme right (FvD), whereas the more traditional southern socialists have fragmented between VVD and D66.
QuoteRegarding Christian Democrats I was meaning CU and CDA. The calvinists are such an oddity to me that I can't even calibrate them. :lol:
CU is reformed, too. They will ally with SGP sometimes as a joint party.
QuoteThe Dutch Greens must feel somehow closer to the German ones, right? At least in terms of becoming (or wanting to become) a serious coalition partner rather than a protest/oposition party like the Animals, which I guess are still in their political infancy and maybe only want to bring their issue to the public rather than participate in governing.
Yeah the Dutch and German Greens seem fairly similar. I have to say the Animals have matured a lot from their shrill beginnings, but they have no intention of governing.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 06:27:28 PM
Post by: Maladict on March 18, 2021, 06:27:28 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 05:50:26 PM
I read somewhere than one of the reasons why the Dutch are now more vocal in EU forums about frugality is actually because of Brexit, as it was the UK the who did most of their talking points in the past and they were more comfortable supporting from the background.
Yes, the UK was a great ally of the VVD in particular, in European matters.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 07:06:04 PM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 07:06:04 PM
I am genuinely thrilled to discover that this election is provoking loads of hot takes on Lib Dem Twitter about what the VVD and D66's success could teach the Lib Dems :lol:
I always think it's crazy when you see Labour Twitter wondering what they can learn from Stacey Abrams but this is other level.
I always think it's crazy when you see Labour Twitter wondering what they can learn from Stacey Abrams but this is other level.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Zanza on March 19, 2021, 01:02:28 AM
Post by: Zanza on March 19, 2021, 01:02:28 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 18, 2021, 06:23:44 PMThe UK just stated in their Integrated Review that their foreign policy and security focus is the Indo-Pacific region instead of the Euro-Atlantic region. Pretty sure that sentiment is not shared by the Baltics or Poland.Quote from: The Larch on March 18, 2021, 06:10:42 PMYeah and in many ways they weren't really aligned with the UK on lots of issues. They quite like EU money, for example :P But the UK and Poland/the Baltics see eye-to-eye on foreign policy, I'm not sure the UK and Hungary do at all.
Yeah, it will depend on the topic for sure. Visegrad is another contrarian bloc, too, but it predates Brexit. Don't know how they'll be affected, though.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Sheilbh on March 19, 2021, 05:38:54 AM
Post by: Sheilbh on March 19, 2021, 05:38:54 AM
Quote from: Zanza on March 19, 2021, 01:02:28 AMThat's not right. From everything I've read - including by French think tanks and American think tanks - the big takeaway is that it is very much a tilt to the Indo-Pacific. It actually notes that France and Germany have more developed strategies in the Indo-Pacific and both currently have ships in the Indo-Pacific - and the EU is publishing it's Indo-Pacific strategy next month. So on that side of things the UK is playing catch-up.
The UK just stated in their Integrated Review that their foreign policy and security focus is the Indo-Pacific region instead of the Euro-Atlantic region. Pretty sure that sentiment is not shared by the Baltics or Poland.
But the IDR makes clear our core security interest is the Euro-Atlantic and Russia is the "most acute" threat to the UK. Russian re-armament, especially of nukes and battlefield nukes, for example is the big driver of the UK increasing it's number of nukes to roughly the level of France - and, arguably, to Britain becoming like France a shameless and transparent nuclear power.
Edit: And incidentally the bit takeaway seems to be that the focus of the UK is science and tech - that's the theme tying everything together in the IDR and especially cyber security and space - again, areas the French have recently announced a focus on.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: viper37 on March 19, 2021, 03:04:35 PM
Post by: viper37 on March 19, 2021, 03:04:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 17, 2021, 01:34:56 PMlol :D
I think you picked the crazier Nazi veep.
I knew he was bad, just not that bad :P
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on March 26, 2021, 07:13:36 AM
Post by: Maladict on March 26, 2021, 07:13:36 AM
And we're off to a massively embarrassing start. :lol:
The PM has since stated nobody needs to explain anything, and they won't. Which has not gone over well, at all.
QuoteCoalition scouts quit after Ollongren accidentally reveals explosive notes
The two people charged with kick-starting the coalition negotiations have resigned after one – D66 home affairs minister Kajsa Ollongren – accidentally leaked her private notes to reporters as she left parliament on Thursday. Ollongren and Annemarie Jorritsma, who is leading the talks on behalf of the VVD, were due to meet prime minister Mark Rutte and D66 leader Sigrid Kaag on Thursday morning to brief them on their findings so far. However, the talks were abruptly halted when Ollongren learned she had tested positive for coronavirus and left immediately. Eagle-eyed reporters spotted that her notes were visible under her arm in an ANP photograph.
When the picture was magnified the words 'position Omtzigt... job elsewhere' could be clearly read. This is a reference to the popular Christian Democrat MP Pieter Omtzigt who has been highly critical of the outgoing coalition, particularly its role in the tax office scandal. The document also states that 'left wing parties are not completely stuck together' – possibly referring to suggestions that Labour (PvdA) could be invited to join a new cabinet. Labour leader Lilianne Ploumen has said publicly she does not want Labour to be the only left-wing party in the coalition. The paper also states that majority support in the upper house of parliament, or senate is not a must for anyone, and questions the negotiating style of CDA leader Wopke Hoesktra and his future cabinet role.
In particular the reference to Omtzigt, currently home due to overwork, has aroused political hackles, with MPs from across the political spectrum calling for an explanation. In their resignation statement, Ollongren and Jorritsma said that the notes were meant as input for the next round of talks and did not reflect the discussions which had already been held.
The PM has since stated nobody needs to explain anything, and they won't. Which has not gone over well, at all.
Title: Re: Vote in the Dutch general election
Post by: Maladict on April 01, 2021, 07:06:53 AM
Post by: Maladict on April 01, 2021, 07:06:53 AM
Yep, all going smoothly.
QuoteOpposition parties in the Dutch parliament on Thursday tabled a no confidence motion in Prime Minister Mark Rutte, who is trying to form a new government after March 17 elections.
The vote was to take place later in the day, after Rutte appeared in parliament to explain why he had told reporters he had not discussed a political appointment for one lawmaker, but it later emerged he had.
Rutte denies having lied.