So I have been reading a bit about the history of Islam, and it seems to me there is a lot of misconceptions thrown around about it.
For example, anti-Islamic folks often use the doctrine of taqiyya - deception or obfuscation - as a proof one cannot trust devout Muslims who may be deliberately hiding terrorists. Only that it seems to me that taqiyya is practiced by the Shiites (mainly the Ismailis) to avoid Sunni persecution - while most terrorists are Sunni (eg. Wahhabists). It's a bit like mixing up Catholics with Calvinists.
Quote from: Martinus on November 05, 2016, 01:23:36 AM
So I have been reading a bit about the history of Islam, and it seems to me there is a lot of misconceptions thrown around about it.
For example, anti-Islamic folks often use the doctrine of taqiyya - deception or obfuscation - as a proof one cannot trust devout Muslims who may be deliberately hiding terrorists. Only that it seems to me that taqiyya is practiced by the Shiites (mainly the Ismailis) to avoid Sunni persecution - while most terrorists are Sunni (eg. Wahhabists). It's a bit like mixing up Catholics with Calvinists.
I will follow this thread with interest.
The logic seems odd to me anyway. Someone is hiding a terrorist and won't tell you because it's in his religion. Isn't he just not going to tell you because he's a horrible person who's aiding terrorists anyway, whether his religion always it or not?
Quote from: HVC on November 05, 2016, 01:51:05 AM
The logic seems odd to me anyway. Someone is hiding a terrorist and won't tell you because it's in his religion. Isn't he just not going to tell you because he's a horrible person who's aiding terrorists anyway, whether his religion always it or not?
The issue is whether Muslims have a predisposition to lie in situations in which telling the truth might harm their religion, or co-religionists.
Yup. Also, while people do break their religious commandments there is still a difference, I would posit, between some behaviour that is prohibited or frowned up and behaviour that is permitted or encouraged, especially when dealing with religious people.
This misconception bores me. Of course you take what people of the same ideology as terrorists say with a grain of salt. I don't expect Communists to be statistically as forthcoming about Communist terrorists in hiding as normal people would be. Whether or not there's some fine print in their holy books seems meh.
Mart, next misconception please.
Quote from: Martinus on November 05, 2016, 01:23:36 AM
So I have been reading a bit about the history of Islam, and it seems to me there is a lot of misconceptions thrown around about it.
For example, anti-Islamic folks often use the doctrine of taqiyya - deception or obfuscation - as a proof one cannot trust devout Muslims who may be deliberately hiding terrorists. Only that it seems to me that taqiyya is practiced by the Shiites (mainly the Ismailis) to avoid Sunni persecution - while most terrorists are Sunni (eg. Wahhabists). It's a bit like mixing up Catholics with Calvinists.
Chinese strategic thought has placed a premium on deception or obfuscation for centuries, and for longer than Islam has been around. Are they deliberately hiding terrorists, too?
You guys are missing the point.
The anti-Islamist people are saying that Muslims have a specific quasi-devotional practice called taqiyya that involves lying and misrepresenting your religion in the name of God. They claim this makes Muslims more untrustworthy than members of other religions which eg prohibit lying.
This is true (that is, such practice exists) but misrepresents the situation because it is limited to Ismaili Shias who used it to escape persecution by Sunnis - and it's Sunnis, not Shias who are committing acts of terror.
Quote from: Martinus on November 05, 2016, 08:23:06 AM
it's Sunnis, not Shias who are committing acts of terror.
This is not true.
While Al Qaeda, and then Daesh, are Sunni muslims, there's no shortage of Shi'ite terrorists, namely Iranian/Hezbollah.
I would say that Shia terrorists are more similar to the likes of IRA or ETA - they have a clear nationalist political goal than a religious one.
I must admit that I don't understand the difference between lying as a Muslim and lying as a non-Muslim. Certainly, the Judeo-Christian tradition includes their god lying, so it can hardly be argued that Judaism or Christianity forbids lying. Confucian-derived cultures think that lying is a positive virtue when the truth would harm a member of the family. Hindu heroes in the epics lie under some circumstances (often by pretending to be someone else). Maybe Buddhism and Sikhism think lying always a sin, but I have no evidence there.
Eh, there's definitely Christian lines of thought that lying is wrong. One of the most famous in all of philosophy is Kant (deeply religious dude) and his famed argument about whether or not you should lie to someone who asks you where your brother is located, so that he might murder him. God is definitely deceptive in many of the parables in the Bible, but God is also granted the theological authority to do things that for us are sins (like taking vengeance, killing etc.)
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 05, 2016, 01:12:10 PM
Eh, there's definitely Christian lines of thought that lying is wrong. One of the most famous in all of philosophy is Kant (deeply religious dude) and his famed argument about whether or not you should lie to someone who asks you where your brother is located, so that he might murder him. God is definitely deceptive in many of the parables in the Bible, but God is also granted the theological authority to do things that for us are sins (like taking vengeance, killing etc.)
The Biblical god is a psychopath.
Old testament God is cool. New testament God is a hippy and an abusive father.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 05, 2016, 01:12:10 PM
Eh, there's definitely Christian lines of thought that lying is wrong. One of the most famous in all of philosophy is Kant (deeply religious dude) and his famed argument about whether or not you should lie to someone who asks you where your brother is located, so that he might murder him. God is definitely deceptive in many of the parables in the Bible, but God is also granted the theological authority to do things that for us are sins (like taking vengeance, killing etc.)
Lying is evil in Islam as well, with a few exceptions. I don't see the difference between the Christian concept of lying and the Muslim one: it is wrong except under extraordinary circumstances (or whimsical ones, if one is the god of both Christians and Muslims).
Quote from: grumbler on November 05, 2016, 11:21:44 AM
I must admit that I don't understand
Yeah, you could stop right there.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 05, 2016, 01:24:49 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 05, 2016, 01:12:10 PM
Eh, there's definitely Christian lines of thought that lying is wrong. One of the most famous in all of philosophy is Kant (deeply religious dude) and his famed argument about whether or not you should lie to someone who asks you where your brother is located, so that he might murder him. God is definitely deceptive in many of the parables in the Bible, but God is also granted the theological authority to do things that for us are sins (like taking vengeance, killing etc.)
The Biblical god is a psychopath.
Edgy! :yawn:
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2016, 01:41:53 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 05, 2016, 01:24:49 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 05, 2016, 01:12:10 PM
Eh, there's definitely Christian lines of thought that lying is wrong. One of the most famous in all of philosophy is Kant (deeply religious dude) and his famed argument about whether or not you should lie to someone who asks you where your brother is located, so that he might murder him. God is definitely deceptive in many of the parables in the Bible, but God is also granted the theological authority to do things that for us are sins (like taking vengeance, killing etc.)
The Biblical god is a psychopath.
Edgy! :yawn:
How else do you explain the Book of Job?
Quote from: Barrister on November 05, 2016, 08:46:31 AM
This is not true.
While Al Qaeda, and then Daesh, are Sunni muslims, there's no shortage of Shi'ite terrorists, namely Iranian/Hezbollah.
The only Shi'ite terrorist act I can think of is the attack on the Buenos Aires Jewish center.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on November 05, 2016, 02:01:25 PM
How else do you explain the Book of Job?
Haven't read it, watched the movie, though. Loved it.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4d/Trading_Places.jpg/220px-Trading_Places.jpg)
The betting millionaires in that film don't kill anyone though.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 05, 2016, 02:04:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 05, 2016, 08:46:31 AM
This is not true.
While Al Qaeda, and then Daesh, are Sunni muslims, there's no shortage of Shi'ite terrorists, namely Iranian/Hezbollah.
The only Shi'ite terrorist act I can think of is the attack on the Buenos Aires Jewish center.
They did blow up our marine barracks in Lebanon.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 05, 2016, 02:04:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 05, 2016, 08:46:31 AM
This is not true.
While Al Qaeda, and then Daesh, are Sunni muslims, there's no shortage of Shi'ite terrorists, namely Iranian/Hezbollah.
The only Shi'ite terrorist act I can think of is the attack on the Buenos Aires Jewish center.
Beirut barracks bombing?
Damn - Raz beat me to it.
Quote from: Barrister on November 05, 2016, 06:28:37 PM
Beirut barracks bombing?
Damn - Raz beat me to it.
Even if you include that their total count pales in comparison to the Sunni score.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 05, 2016, 05:57:20 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 05, 2016, 02:04:29 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 05, 2016, 08:46:31 AM
This is not true.
While Al Qaeda, and then Daesh, are Sunni muslims, there's no shortage of Shi'ite terrorists, namely Iranian/Hezbollah.
The only Shi'ite terrorist act I can think of is the attack on the Buenos Aires Jewish center.
They did blow up our marine barracks in Lebanon.
And the French barracks at exactly the same time.
So now Martinus is 'the poster of peace'. :cool:
Quote from: Barrister on November 05, 2016, 06:28:37 PM
Beirut barracks bombing?
How is the Beirut barracks bombing an act of terrorism? Was the USAAF's bombing of German Army barracks in WW2 also an act of terrorism?
Quote from: mongers on November 05, 2016, 08:16:12 PM
And the French barracks at exactly the same time.
Soldiers are legitimate targets in a war.
Quote from: grumbler on November 05, 2016, 08:59:53 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 05, 2016, 08:16:12 PM
And the French barracks at exactly the same time.
Soldiers are legitimate targets in a war.
I didn't say there weren't, but was pointing out it was a double strike on the multi-national force; iirc 50-70 Frenchmen also died in addition to the 200+ Americans.
Quote from: grumbler on November 05, 2016, 08:59:53 PM
Soldiers are legitimate targets in a war.
Who was the US at war with? Also, our embassy was blown up in Lebanon.
So, I have befriended on Facebook, in a multi-denominational/esoteric group, a devout Muslim from Pakistan and have been engaging him in a philosophical/theological/metaphysical debate. Has been quite invigorating so far. Will report here if this goes beyond a skin-deep level of engagement, though.
Edit: He is also kinda hot. But that's beyond the point. :sleep:
It is the will of Allah.
Quote from: Martinus on November 08, 2016, 05:35:42 PM
So, I have befriended on Facebook, in a multi-denominational/esoteric group, a devout Muslim from Pakistan and have been engaging him in a philosophical/theological/metaphysical debate. Has been quite invigorating so far. Will report here if this goes beyond a skin-deep level of engagement, though.
Edit: He is also kinda hot. But that's beyond the point. :sleep:
You two could never be, they think feet are dirty :console:
Quote from: Martinus on November 08, 2016, 05:35:42 PM
So, I have befriended on Facebook, in a multi-denominational/esoteric group, a devout Muslim from Pakistan and have been engaging him in a philosophical/theological/metaphysical debate. Has been quite invigorating so far. Will report here if this goes beyond a skin-deep level of engagement, though.
Edit: He is also kinda hot. But that's beyond the point. :sleep:
Ask him to beat you up after you've had sex. Traditions are important.
Quote from: Martinus on November 05, 2016, 01:23:36 AM
So I have been reading a bit about the history of Islam, and it seems to me there is a lot of misconceptions thrown around about it.
For example, anti-Islamic folks often use the doctrine of taqiyya - deception or obfuscation - as a proof one cannot trust devout Muslims who may be deliberately hiding terrorists. Only that it seems to me that taqiyya is practiced by the Shiites (mainly the Ismailis) to avoid Sunni persecution - while most terrorists are Sunni (eg. Wahhabists). It's a bit like mixing up Catholics with Calvinists.
Yep. I've pointed that one a lot, not that it makes any difference to most people who mention 'taqiyya'. I think it's a fairly ancient idea that mainlygot brought back back by the persecution of Shia in Saddam's Iraq.
It's really the old mental reservation - but then that was used as a reason to beat up on Catholics too. We, by definition, were jesuitical and untrustworthy.
Also suicide attacks were, until very recently, the preserve of Sunni groups. Which seems odd because Shia theology is based on martyrs to a far greater degree. But in modern terms it was very rare - Ayatollah Khomeini authorised them in Iran-Iraq and Khamenei has declared the war in Iraq-Syria a second Karbala. Even so any attack like that is far more likely to be a Sunni attack.
Quote from: The Brain on November 09, 2016, 10:40:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 08, 2016, 05:35:42 PM
So, I have befriended on Facebook, in a multi-denominational/esoteric group, a devout Muslim from Pakistan and have been engaging him in a philosophical/theological/metaphysical debate. Has been quite invigorating so far. Will report here if this goes beyond a skin-deep level of engagement, though.
Edit: He is also kinda hot. But that's beyond the point. :sleep:
Ask him to beat you up after you've had sex. Traditions are important.
Why wait after? :unsure:
Quote from: Martinus on November 09, 2016, 03:37:28 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 09, 2016, 10:40:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 08, 2016, 05:35:42 PM
So, I have befriended on Facebook, in a multi-denominational/esoteric group, a devout Muslim from Pakistan and have been engaging him in a philosophical/theological/metaphysical debate. Has been quite invigorating so far. Will report here if this goes beyond a skin-deep level of engagement, though.
Edit: He is also kinda hot. But that's beyond the point. :sleep:
Ask him to beat you up after you've had sex. Traditions are important.
Why wait after? :unsure:
Sure, go nuts.
Quote from: mongers on November 05, 2016, 08:16:55 PM
So now Martinus is 'the poster of peace'. :cool:
Marty is one of the smartest posters here and his ability to deep immerse in different ideologies to reach his own conclusions is the stuff of legend.
I certainly look forward to reading this thread.
:lol:
Quote from: Siege on November 13, 2016, 01:52:09 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 05, 2016, 08:16:55 PM
So now Martinus is 'the poster of peace'. :cool:
Marty is one of the smartest posters here and his ability to deep immerse in different ideologies to reach his own conclusions is the stuff of legend.
I certainly look forward to reading this thread.
:hug:
Quote from: Siege on November 13, 2016, 01:52:09 PM
Quote from: mongers on November 05, 2016, 08:16:55 PM
So now Martinus is 'the poster of peace'. :cool:
Marty is one of the smartest posters here and his ability to deep immerse in different ideologies to reach his own conclusions is the stuff of legend.
I certainly look forward to reading this thread.
So what did you think of it? :)
Ok, so I gotta say I am humbled by how many things I didn't know.
For example, I have never heard about the Aga Khans and their Imamate before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aga_Khan_IV
They seem like a template for what modern Islam should look like.
Edit: And it's super cool that he is (at least apocryphally) both a direct descendent of Muhammad and the Old Man of the Mountain. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on November 14, 2016, 06:40:53 AM
Ok, so I gotta say I am humbled by how many things I didn't know.
For example, I have never heard about the Aga Khans and their Imamate before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aga_Khan_IV
They seem like a template for what modern Islam should look like.
Edit: And it's super cool that he is (at least apocryphally) both a direct descendent of Muhammad and the Old Man of the Mountain. :lol:
He's no Chaka.
He's so humbled that he makes a pronouncement on what Islam should look like.
Quote from: Martinus on November 14, 2016, 06:40:53 AM
Ok, so I gotta say I am humbled by how many things I didn't know.
For example, I have never heard about the Aga Khans and their Imamate before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aga_Khan_IV
They seem like a template for what modern Islam should look like.
Edit: And it's super cool that he is (at least apocryphally) both a direct descendent of Muhammad and the Old Man of the Mountain. :lol:
There's a museum in Toronto built by this sect (the "Aga Khan Museum"), and quite a good one, too. I've been there twice.
https://www.agakhanmuseum.org/
Not one mention is made in that place of the medieval "Assassins", though. ;)
Aga Khan was pretty cool. I liked her song "I feel for you" best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX9E44mClKs
Quote from: Malthus on November 14, 2016, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 14, 2016, 06:40:53 AM
Ok, so I gotta say I am humbled by how many things I didn't know.
For example, I have never heard about the Aga Khans and their Imamate before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aga_Khan_IV
They seem like a template for what modern Islam should look like.
Edit: And it's super cool that he is (at least apocryphally) both a direct descendent of Muhammad and the Old Man of the Mountain. :lol:
There's a museum in Toronto built by this sect (the "Aga Khan Museum"), and quite a good one, too. I've been there twice.
https://www.agakhanmuseum.org/
Not one mention is made in that place of the medieval "Assassins", though. ;)
Whitewashing. :P
Here's a cool clip about him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPAU-dxe1ow
I haven't realised his mother was Rita Hayworth. It's really fascinating - I kinda feel somewhat foolish not to have ever heard of him before - have you guys (other than Malthus) heard of him?
He was also quite hot as a young man. :P
I had an Ismaili friend in school. They are one of the most significant of the non-Twelver Shi'a sects.
The Aga Khans are not exactly obscure; they regularly get mentioned on the richest so-and-so lists and their foundation is a big player.
Quote from: Martinus on November 14, 2016, 02:35:31 PM
Here's a cool clip about him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPAU-dxe1ow
I haven't realised his mother was Rita Hayworth. It's really fascinating - I kinda feel somewhat foolish not to have ever heard of him before - have you guys (other than Malthus) heard of him?
He was also quite hot as a young man. :P
Heard of Aga Khan? No never ever. Of course not, and I'm mildly offended by the question.
His foundation has sponsored a bunch of exhibits about Muslim culture in Spain, he's also got quite a few Spanish awards and commendations. I think he had a bit of a friendship with King Juan Carlos so he's somewhat known in Spain I'd say.
Quote from: Martinus on November 14, 2016, 02:35:31 PM
Here's a cool clip about him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPAU-dxe1ow
I haven't realised his mother was Rita Hayworth. It's really fascinating - I kinda feel somewhat foolish not to have ever heard of him before - have you guys (other than Malthus) heard of him?
He was also quite hot as a young man. :P
Yes.
But then the Aga Khans have had connections to Britain from the time of the Raj.
Rita Hayworth was his stepmother, by the way - his mother was the daughter of a British peer.