QuoteUS fast food chain in Malaysia told to change hot dog name
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Hot dogs, or at least the name, will soon be off the menu for a U.S. fast food chain selling the popular snack in Malaysia.
The chain, Auntie Anne's, has been told by Islamic authorities that its popular Pretzel Dog, which contains no dog meat, has to be renamed as it is confusing for Muslim consumers.
The Malaysian Islamic Development Department has told the U.S. company to banish the word "dog" from its menu and suggested that the frankfurter wrapped in a pretzel be called Pretzel Sausage as part of conditions to obtain halal certification based on Islamic dietary laws. Dogs are deemed unclean in Islam.
"It is more appropriate to use the name Pretzel Sausage," the department's halal director Sirajuddin Suhaimee told local media.
The move is not surprising in mainly Muslim Malaysia, where conservative attitudes have been on the rise. A wide range of products have been certified halal, from mineral water to a newly launched Internet browser and household products to appeal to Muslims, who make up about 60 percent of the country's 30 million people.
Auntie Anne's said it will comply with the request. Its halal executive, Farhatul Kamilah, said on her Facebook page that the chain has proposed several new names and was waiting for the Islamic department's approval.
Other food outlets selling hot dogs face similar rules. U.S. fast food chain A&W earlier obtained its halal certification in Malaysia. In return, its famous root beer is simply called RB on its menu and hot dogs are coneys and franks, short for frankfurters.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/us-fast-food-chain-in-malaysia-told-to-change-hot-dog-name/2016/10/18/2f40cc82-95a0-11e6-9cae-2a3574e296a6_story.html
You can't make this shit up.
Incidentally, wasn't Malaysia supposed to be one of the "good ones", i.e. an exemplary moderate Muslim democracy?
Quote from: Martinus on October 19, 2016, 03:31:28 AM
Incidentally, wasn't Malaysia supposed to be one of the "good ones", i.e. an exemplary moderate Muslim democracy?
"Don't worry, they're not the Waffen SS, they're just regular, moderate Nazis whose anti-semitism extends mostly to smashing shop windows and harboring conspiracy theories about the Elders of Zion. They don't
really want a final solution."
If renaming food products because of vague consumer confusion reasons is the best example of Muslim tyranny you can come up with, then yeah, Malaysia is definitely one of the good ones. The EU does this shit all the time.
Some people do actually eat dogs in those corners of the world, you know.
Quote from: celedhring on October 19, 2016, 03:36:37 AM
If renaming food products because of vague consumer confusion reasons is the best example of Muslim tyranny you can come up with, then yeah, Malaysia is definitely one of the good ones. The EU does this shit all the time.
Some people do actually eat dogs in those corners of the world, you know.
You have to be brain damages to think that "hot dogs" implies dog meat. This is akin to Muslims refusing to handle alcohol or pork products while working in a regular grocery store, or banning "Peppa Pig" because ugh, gross.
Why should we worry about how other people want to call their food?
Quote from: Monoriu on October 19, 2016, 03:42:47 AM
Why should we worry about how other people want to call their food?
Precisely. Who gives a fuck?
Quote from: Monoriu on October 19, 2016, 03:42:47 AM
Why should we worry about how other people want to call their food?
It's Muslim cultural imperialism. There are significant minorities in Malaysia who are being forced to conform to Islamic beliefs and preferences.
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 03:54:07 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 19, 2016, 03:42:47 AM
Why should we worry about how other people want to call their food?
Precisely. Who gives a fuck?
The restaurant wants to call their food a "hot dog". They are being told by the government that they have to rename this or be banned. This is hardly about "people wanting to name their food" in some way. Quite the opposite actually.
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 19, 2016, 03:38:04 AM
Quote from: celedhring on October 19, 2016, 03:36:37 AM
If renaming food products because of vague consumer confusion reasons is the best example of Muslim tyranny you can come up with, then yeah, Malaysia is definitely one of the good ones. The EU does this shit all the time.
Some people do actually eat dogs in those corners of the world, you know.
You have to be brain damages to think that "hot dogs" implies dog meat. This is akin to Muslims refusing to handle alcohol or pork products while working in a regular grocery store, or banning "Peppa Pig" because ugh, gross.
In Malaysia you can't name your sausage "hot dog" unless it's actually made of dog meat, even though you have to be brain damaged to believe your fast food sausage is made of dog meat.
In the UK you can't name a yogurt "Greek yogurt" unless it's actually made in Greece, even though you have to be brain damaged to believe the cheap strained yogurt you pick at your local Tesco is actually imported from Greece.
Guess what merits a "XXXX are evil" thread by Martinus.
Oh, and I just looked it up and it isn't illegal to eat dog meat in Malaysia. There's apparently a bit of a gray market in selling them to immigrant workers from Vietnam and China.
Quote from: Martinus on October 19, 2016, 04:00:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 03:54:07 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 19, 2016, 03:42:47 AM
Why should we worry about how other people want to call their food?
Precisely. Who gives a fuck?
The restaurant wants to call their food a "hot dog". They are being told by the government that they have to rename this or be banned. This is hardly about "people wanting to name their food" in some way. Quite the opposite actually.
Oh noes.
Quote from: Martinus on October 19, 2016, 04:00:12 AM
The restaurant wants to call their food a "hot dog". They are being told by the government that they have to rename this or be banned. This is hardly about "people wanting to name their food" in some way. Quite the opposite actually.
They are told that they cannot call themselves halal without changing the name. Reading comprehension fail. It doesn't help that the journalist doesn't understand this, either, but that's journalism these days.
I don't know enough about malaysians to comment on whether hot dog is a recognisable name to them
It's not hard to imagine someone with minimal exposure to us culture assuming it is a dog.
Quote from: grumbler on October 19, 2016, 04:59:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 19, 2016, 04:00:12 AM
The restaurant wants to call their food a "hot dog". They are being told by the government that they have to rename this or be banned. This is hardly about "people wanting to name their food" in some way. Quite the opposite actually.
They are told that they cannot call themselves halal without changing the name. Reading comprehension fail. It doesn't help that the journalist doesn't understand this, either, but that's journalism these days.
What a tragedy. I can see why Marti and Hami are outraged.
:jaron:
Yes, you do look like an idiot. :hug:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 19, 2016, 03:42:47 AM
Why should we worry about how other people want to call their food?
A government agency that is going to ban you unless you name your shit a certain thing is pretty obnoxious. Certainly does not reflect well on Malaysia but besides that no big deal.
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 06:44:47 AM
Yes, you do look like an idiot. :hug:
In fairness, so does Hamilcar.
Heh, I have been told that a government agency in Canada has stated that one cannot label a liquid product made from almonds as "almond milk", but rather it must be called an "almond beverage" or something of that sort.
The reason?
Despite the fact that "almond milk" is widely known as the name for this product, under Canadian food regulations, "milk" is a regulated term that means a dairy product made from the secretions of animals; putting a name before it, as in "[named flavor] milk", means a flavored type of milk, as in "chocolate milk". The concern is customer confusion - in theory, if a customer sees "almond milk", they may think it refers to "milk flavored with almond flavoring". In reality, even if no customers are confused, the regs create a standard for a product known as "milk" that only fits dairy-type products, and the bureaucrats are reluctant to make exceptions, except through legislative changes.
This sort of thing is totally standard in food regulation, happens all the time.
But that is Canada, which not remains under the tyranny of the crown of the UK (from which we liberated ourselves in 1776) but also is drifting toward sharia law in its legal system (as I've learned in some right wing blogs).
God damnit.
You know, I believe that there is a real problem with Islam, and how it is practiced and the practical effects it has on human liberty, social equality, and justice.
What you call a fucking mystery meat tube on a menu in order to be considered compliant with particular religious specific rules doesn't really rise to the level of concern that honor killing, death sentences for apostates, state mandated religious instruction, and suppression of religious freedom for other Muslims and non-Muslims might suggest.
Fucking hot dogs. Really?
Quote from: Valmy on October 19, 2016, 06:54:57 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 19, 2016, 03:42:47 AM
Why should we worry about how other people want to call their food?
A government agency that is going to ban you unless you name your shit a certain thing is pretty obnoxious. Certainly does not reflect well on Malaysia but besides that no big deal.
As pointed out above, the article merely says that they will be refused Halal certification unless they change the name, not that the product will be banned if they don't change the name.
They can keep the name "Hot Dog" and not be Halal certified - since the company probably made the request for certification themselves I don't see a problem in the certification authority issuing conditions.
I didn't think Hot dogs were Halal to begin with.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 19, 2016, 08:19:29 AM
But that is Canada, which not remains under the tyranny of the crown of the UK (from which we liberated ourselves in 1776) but also is drifting toward sharia law in its legal system (as I've learned in some right wing blogs).
:D
The US FDA is urged to take a similar approach:
http://www.nmpf.org/imitation-dairy-products
Quote from: Razgovory on October 19, 2016, 08:26:23 AM
I didn't think Hot dogs were Halal to begin with.
They make hotdogs with cow anuses instead of pig anuses too, you know.
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2016, 08:27:23 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on October 19, 2016, 08:19:29 AM
But that is Canada, which not remains under the tyranny of the crown of the UK (from which we liberated ourselves in 1776) but also is drifting toward sharia law in its legal system (as I've learned in some right wing blogs).
:D
The US FDA is urged to take a similar approach:
http://www.nmpf.org/imitation-dairy-products
Good. Nut milks taste bad and use a shit load of water not only to grow but produce (and in they're grown and made in drought states). This fad needs to go away.
also website using hard pressed made me giggle. See, why can't languish puns be good like that
It's far from an outrage, but the backlash against the OP is puzzling. Not being able to call a hot dog a hot dog is just silly, regardless of where you are.
Quote from: derspiess on October 19, 2016, 12:55:28 PM
It's far from an outrage, but the backlash against the OP is puzzling. Not being able to call a hot dog a hot dog is just silly, regardless of where you are.
Because it is a weak Marti freak out? Who cares what they are doing in Malaysia about what a hot dog can be called at a certified halal restaurant?
Quote from: derspiess on October 19, 2016, 12:55:28 PM
It's far from an outrage, but the backlash against the OP is puzzling. Not being able to call a hot dog a hot dog is just silly, regardless of where you are.
This sort of silliness is common in food labeling regulation, though. Even quite aside from the whole "this is only about Halal certification" thing.
There are lots of cases in which the manufacturer or retailer can't call something what they want, even though the term is widely used by the public. Not to mention, in Malaysia, unlike here, the term "hot dog" may well
not be widely used by the public.
Quote from: derspiess on October 19, 2016, 12:55:28 PM
It's far from an outrage, but the backlash against the OP is puzzling. Not being able to call a hot dog a hot dog is just silly, regardless of where you are.
Not as silly as pretending like someone is "not able to call a hot dog a hot dog" when in fact they are free, in this case, to call it anything they like.
Yeah but being halal there is a lot more important that being halal here. I imagine in some towns not being halal would cut out a lot of your business. A presumably all-beef hot dog made from cows that were slaughtered while some dude murmured Allah's name can't be halal just because some silly government agency doesn't like the name? Yeah, that's silly.
Quote from: derspiess on October 19, 2016, 01:22:17 PM
Yeah but being halal there is a lot more important that being halal here. I imagine in some towns not being halal would cut out a lot of your business. A presumably all-beef hot dog made from cows that were slaughtered while some dude murmured Allah's name can't be halal just because some silly government agency doesn't like the name? Yeah, that's silly.
That depends on what the rules are around what defines halal, of course.
Now, I think it is silly that the government is involved in defining religious standards to begin with, but that is a different question. Given that they are, I don't think it is any more silly than rules that say what you can and cannot call your bubbly wine, or whether or not some cheese qualifies as being called "cheddar" or not.
Quote from: derspiess on October 19, 2016, 01:22:17 PM
Yeah but being halal there is a lot more important that being halal here. I imagine in some towns not being halal would cut out a lot of your business. A presumably all-beef hot dog made from cows that were slaughtered while some dude murmured Allah's name can't be halal just because some silly government agency doesn't like the name? Yeah, that's silly.
Perhaps the requirements for halal precludes mislabelling a product - such as calling something "dog" when it doesn't contain any dog.
Quote from: derspiess on October 19, 2016, 01:22:17 PM
Yeah but being halal there is a lot more important that being halal here. I imagine in some towns not being halal would cut out a lot of your business. A presumably all-beef hot dog made from cows that were slaughtered while some dude murmured Allah's name can't be halal just because some silly government agency doesn't like the name? Yeah, that's silly.
The concern is that it is potentially
confusing to consumers (not everyone on Earth in American or European, and so not everyone on Earth knows what a "Hot Dog" is, or that it is not, in fact, made of dog meat).
The halal certification issue aside, this is really no different from rules requiring companies to avoid calling products "milk" when they are not dairy (as in "Soy Milk" or "Almond Milk").
Help! I was tricked into thinking I was eating dog!
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 01:37:16 PM
Help! I was tricked into thinking I was eating dog!
Point is that it makes a certain amount of sense to have food labeling clearly state what is in the food, and not something that is not. Not seeing any huge problem with that.
It only appears "silly" here because we are very familiar with that quintessentially North American product, the hot dog, and know more or less what is in it - a fine variety of snouts and anuses, but not those of actual dogs.
Wow, this thread is like everyone as suddenly been Tyrified & is now totally amazed that people are not the same everywhere.
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2016, 01:34:34 PM
The halal certification issue aside, this is really no different from rules requiring companies to avoid calling products "milk" when they are not dairy (as in "Soy Milk" or "Almond Milk").
It's the exact opposite. The no milk rule is a prohibition of a false positive association. The hot dog rule is a prohibition of a false negative association.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 19, 2016, 01:53:22 PM
Wow, this thread is like everyone as suddenly been Tyrified & is now totally amazed that people are not the same everywhere.
:lol:
To be fair, people here mostly make fun of Tyr for being parochial about North American things but they're usually equally parochial about things outside the US.
How do you prove a false negative?
Quote from: Jacob on October 19, 2016, 01:59:42 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 19, 2016, 01:53:22 PM
Wow, this thread is like everyone as suddenly been Tyrified & is now totally amazed that people are not the same everywhere.
:lol:
To be fair, people here mostly make fun of Tyr for being parochial about North American things but they're usually equally parochial about things outside the US.
Just a matter of time till Americanization takes over.
Quote from: The Brain on October 19, 2016, 02:00:59 PM
How do you prove a false negative?
Don't even bother, everyone's using digital these days.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 19, 2016, 01:59:17 PM
It's the exact opposite. The no milk rule is a prohibition of a false positive association. The hot dog rule is a prohibition of a false negative association.
It's about people thinking a product is something that it is not. The sentiment people hold towards the confusor is irrelevant.
What's extra ridiculous about this case is that the name "hot dog" is itself a made-up name that resulted from anti-German sentiments in the US during WWI. It's essentially an instance of "freedom fries" that actually stuck.
But Freedom Fries do contain freedom.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 19, 2016, 01:59:17 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2016, 01:34:34 PM
The halal certification issue aside, this is really no different from rules requiring companies to avoid calling products "milk" when they are not dairy (as in "Soy Milk" or "Almond Milk").
It's the exact opposite. The no milk rule is a prohibition of a false positive association. The hot dog rule is a prohibition of a false negative association.
Not so.
For example, the "almond milk" manufacturer could plausibly argue that the reason his or her product exists in the first place is that
customers want an *alternative* to dairy products because dairy contains cholesterol and lactose - that "milk", in short, is a "false
negative association". So leave them alone, right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond_milk
QuoteAlmond milk is a plant milk with a creamy texture and nutty taste. It contains neither cholesterol nor lactose, and is often consumed by the lactose-intolerant and others who wish to avoid dairy products, including vegans.
Even if you could prove it was a "false positive", it is still an issue of confusion. Why allow a false association at all? If only associations creating "false positives" are regulated, that forces the regulator into judging which false associations are "positive" and which are "negative", rather than the far easier task of judging which are "false".
Most regulators are reluctant to get involved in arguments of that sort, for obvious reasons, and simply police whether a label is "misleading".
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 19, 2016, 02:07:33 PM
It's about people thinking a product is something that it is not. The sentiment people hold towards the confusor is irrelevant.
What's extra ridiculous about this case is that the name "hot dog" is itself a made-up name that resulted from anti-German sentiments in the US during WWI. It's essentially an instance of "freedom fries" that actually stuck.
It's relevant because businesses generally don't have an incentive to drive away customers through misleading labeling.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 19, 2016, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 19, 2016, 02:07:33 PM
It's about people thinking a product is something that it is not. The sentiment people hold towards the confusor is irrelevant.
What's extra ridiculous about this case is that the name "hot dog" is itself a made-up name that resulted from anti-German sentiments in the US during WWI. It's essentially an instance of "freedom fries" that actually stuck.
It's relevant because businesses generally don't have an incentive to drive away customers through misleading labeling.
Sure.
But in this specific case, attracting or repelling customers by
deliberately misleadingly naming the food wasn't, apparently, an issue: a "hot dog" is simply the traditional name of the food (as is "almond milk" for that matter).
The error in your logic is assuming that the regulator is concerned with the business motivations for the business choosing the name. Typically, they aren't; they are concerned with the potential for the name misleading the customer, regardless of why it was chosen.
Of course where the line is drawn is a bit arbitrary, if they are just choosing what may be confusing. Halal hamburger malaysia gets hits even though burgers generally do not contain ham.
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 02:43:57 PM
Of course where the line is drawn is a bit arbitrary, if they are just choosing what may be confusing. Halal hamburger malaysia gets hits even though burgers generally do not contain ham.
The city of Hamburg likewise does not consist of ham. :D
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2016, 02:47:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 02:43:57 PM
Of course where the line is drawn is a bit arbitrary, if they are just choosing what may be confusing. Halal hamburger malaysia gets hits even though burgers generally do not contain ham.
The city of Hamburg likewise does not consist of ham. :D
:(
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2016, 02:47:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 02:43:57 PM
Of course where the line is drawn is a bit arbitrary, if they are just choosing what may be confusing. Halal hamburger malaysia gets hits even though burgers generally do not contain ham.
The city of Hamburg likewise does not consist of ham. :D
I considered noting potential confusion that the sandwich is made out of the ground up citizens of hamburg but figured that to be too dark!
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 03:10:22 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2016, 02:47:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 02:43:57 PM
Of course where the line is drawn is a bit arbitrary, if they are just choosing what may be confusing. Halal hamburger malaysia gets hits even though burgers generally do not contain ham.
The city of Hamburg likewise does not consist of ham. :D
I considered noting potential confusion that the sandwich is made out of the ground up citizens of hamburg but figured that to be too dark!
:D
Seriously though - the potential for "confusion" in that case really doesn't exist for non-Westerners. The "confusion" is the result of back-formation: people in the West use the term "burger", a neologism derived from "hamburger", to refer to other foods (for example, "chicken burger" or "veggie burger"). This leads to the (jokingly) erroneous impression that "hamburger" should have "ham" in it.
For those not already used to this quirk of etymology, there is no reason to suspect that a "hamburger" is really a "ham burger", a burger made of ham, rather than to conclude (properly as it turns out) that the word "hamburger" is a proper name for the food (derived, in fact, from "Hamburg Steak").
How would a Malaysian know offhand that a hot dog doesn't contain dog meat?
Seems pretty reasonable to clarify/change the name over there. I don't know what they eat regularly and what are the ingredients. Why would they know ours?
Quote from: Martinus on October 19, 2016, 03:29:38 AM
QuoteUS fast food chain in Malaysia told to change hot dog name
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Hot dogs, or at least the name, will soon be off the menu for a U.S. fast food chain selling the popular snack in Malaysia.
The chain, Auntie Anne's, has been told by Islamic authorities that its popular Pretzel Dog, which contains no dog meat, has to be renamed as it is confusing for Muslim consumers.
The Malaysian Islamic Development Department has told the U.S. company to banish the word "dog" from its menu and suggested that the frankfurter wrapped in a pretzel be called Pretzel Sausage as part of conditions to obtain halal certification based on Islamic dietary laws. Dogs are deemed unclean in Islam.
"It is more appropriate to use the name Pretzel Sausage," the department's halal director Sirajuddin Suhaimee told local media.
The move is not surprising in mainly Muslim Malaysia, where conservative attitudes have been on the rise. A wide range of products have been certified halal, from mineral water to a newly launched Internet browser and household products to appeal to Muslims, who make up about 60 percent of the country's 30 million people.
Auntie Anne's said it will comply with the request. Its halal executive, Farhatul Kamilah, said on her Facebook page that the chain has proposed several new names and was waiting for the Islamic department's approval.
Other food outlets selling hot dogs face similar rules. U.S. fast food chain A&W earlier obtained its halal certification in Malaysia. In return, its famous root beer is simply called RB on its menu and hot dogs are coneys and franks, short for frankfurters.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/us-fast-food-chain-in-malaysia-told-to-change-hot-dog-name/2016/10/18/2f40cc82-95a0-11e6-9cae-2a3574e296a6_story.html
You can't make this shit up.
Religion FTW. Backwards ignorant sods.
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 03:10:22 PM
Quote from: Malthus on October 19, 2016, 02:47:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 19, 2016, 02:43:57 PM
Of course where the line is drawn is a bit arbitrary, if they are just choosing what may be confusing. Halal hamburger malaysia gets hits even though burgers generally do not contain ham.
The city of Hamburg likewise does not consist of ham. :D
I considered noting potential confusion that the sandwich is made out of the ground up citizens of hamburg but figured that to be too dark!
Are humans halal? Or are they considered unclean (maybe just Germans)? :P