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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 01:08:58 PM

Title: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 01:08:58 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/opinion/will-the-left-survive-the-millennials.html?emc=eta1

QuoteWill the Left Survive the Millennials?
By LIONEL SHRIVERSEPT. 23, 2016

Midway through my opening address for the Brisbane Writers Festival earlier this month, Yassmin Abdel-Magied, a Sudanese-born Australian engineer and 25-year-old memoirist, walked out. Her indignant comments about the event might have sunk into obscurity, along with my speech, had they not been republished by The Guardian. Twenty minutes in, this audience member apparently turned to her mother: " 'Mama, I can't sit here,' I said, the corners of my mouth dragging downwards. 'I cannot legitimize this.' " She continued: "The faces around me blurred. As my heels thudded against the grey plastic of the flooring, harmonizing with the beat of the adrenaline pumping through my veins, my mind was blank save for one question. 'How is this happening?' "

I'm asking the same thing.

Briefly, my address maintained that fiction writers should be allowed to write fiction — thus should not let concerns about "cultural appropriation" constrain our creation of characters from different backgrounds than our own. I defended fiction as a vital vehicle for empathy. If we have permission to write only about our own personal experience, there is no fiction, but only memoir. Honestly, my thesis seemed so self-evident that I'd worried the speech would be bland.

Nope — not in the topsy-turvy universe of identity politics. The festival immediately disavowed the address, though the organizers had approved the thrust of the talk in advance. A "Right of Reply" session was hastily organized. When, days later, The Guardian ran the speech, social media went ballistic. Mainstream articles followed suit. I plan on printing out The New Republic's "Lionel Shriver Shouldn't Write About Minorities" and taping it above my desk as a chiding reminder.

Viewing the world and the self through the prism of advantaged and disadvantaged groups, the identity-politics movement — in which behavior like huffing out of speeches and stirring up online mobs is par for the course — is an assertion of generational power. Among milliennials and those coming of age behind them, the race is on to see who can be more righteous and aggrieved — who can replace the boring old civil rights generation with a spikier brand.

When I was growing up in the '60s and early '70s, conservatives were the enforcers of conformity. It was the right that was suspicious, sniffing out Communists and scrutinizing public figures for signs of sedition.

Now the role of oppressor has passed to the left. In Australia, where I spoke, Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act makes it unlawful to do or say anything likely to "offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate," providing alarming latitude in the restriction of free speech. It is Australia's conservatives arguing for the amendment of this law.

As a lifelong Democratic voter, I'm dismayed by the radical left's ever-growing list of dos and don'ts — by its impulse to control, to instill self-censorship as well as to promote real censorship, and to deploy sensitivity as an excuse to be brutally insensitive to any perceived enemy. There are many people who see these frenzies about cultural appropriation, trigger warnings, micro-aggressions and safe spaces as overtly crazy. The shrill tyranny of the left helps to push them toward Donald Trump.

Ironically, only fellow liberals will be cowed by terror of being branded a racist (a pejorative lobbed at me in recent days — one that, however groundless, tends to stick). But there's still such a thing as a real bigot, and a real misogynist. In obsessing over micro-aggressions like the sin of uttering the commonplace Americanism "you guys" to mean "you all," activists persecute fellow travelers who already care about equal rights.

Moreover, people who would hamper free speech always assume that they're designing a world in which only their enemies will have to shut up. But free speech is fragile. Left-wing activists are just as dependent on permission to speak their minds as their detractors.

In an era of weaponized sensitivity, participation in public discourse is growing so perilous, so fraught with the danger of being caught out for using the wrong word or failing to uphold the latest orthodoxy in relation to disability, sexual orientation, economic class, race or ethnicity, that many are apt to bow out. Perhaps intimidating their elders into silence is the intention of the identity-politics cabal — and maybe my generation should retreat to our living rooms and let the young people tear one another apart over who seemed to imply that Asians are good at math.

But do we really want every intellectual conversation to be scrupulously cleansed of any whiff of controversy? Will people, so worried about inadvertently giving offense, avoid those with different backgrounds altogether? Is that the kind of fiction we want — in which the novels of white writers all depict John Cheever's homogeneous Connecticut suburbs of the 1950s, while the real world outside their covers becomes ever more diverse?

Ms. Abdel-Magied got the question right: How is this happening? How did the left in the West come to embrace restriction, censorship and the imposition of an orthodoxy at least as tyrannical as the anti-Communist, pro-Christian conformism I grew up with? Liberals have ominously relabeled themselves "progressives," forsaking a noun that had its roots in "liber," meaning free. To progress is merely to go forward, and you can go forward into a pit.

Protecting freedom of speech involves protecting the voices of people with whom you may violently disagree. In my youth, liberals would defend the right of neo-Nazis to march down Main Street. I cannot imagine anyone on the left making that case today.

Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on September 23, 2016, 01:30:01 PM
Old Grey Lady complains about the youth. ;)

I wouldn't say that the new identity politics is a generational thing per se, so much as a fad that has caught on over the last ~5 years due to the profitability of clickbait combined with social media echo chambers. The youth just tend to be disproportionately susceptible to fads. Hopefully it'll pass... or we'll all end up living in a neo-millet system, which could be fun.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 01:30:44 PM
No.  The Left is DOOMED.  It will die a lingering death by random anecdote.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 23, 2016, 01:35:07 PM
It's a reasonable argument.  Seems to me whenever you read about someone pushing back against PC idiocy it's almost always someone from an older generation, which raises the possibility that as Millenials age the idiocy will become an unchallenged orthodoxy, questioned only by alt-right "fuck her in the pussy" frat boy retards.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 01:36:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 23, 2016, 01:35:07 PM
It's a reasonable argument.  Seems to me whenever you read about someone pushing back against PC idiocy it's almost always someone from an older generation, which raises the possibility that as Millenials age the idiocy will become an unchallenged orthodoxy, questioned only by alt-right "fuck her in the pussy" frat boy retards.

There is a lot to that but it seems to be (maybe the older ones here can correct me) is that in previous generation, society didn't indulge these kinds of tantrums.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 23, 2016, 01:39:21 PM
I think we just have more platforms for extremists to turn the screws on us, from both ends. It is not like the right is looking just really great these days either.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Berkut on September 23, 2016, 01:54:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 23, 2016, 01:35:07 PM
It's a reasonable argument.  Seems to me whenever you read about someone pushing back against PC idiocy it's almost always someone from an older generation, which raises the possibility that as Millenials age the idiocy will become an unchallenged orthodoxy, questioned only by alt-right "fuck her in the pussy" frat boy retards.

It's a completely reasonable argument.

It's one I've been making for a long, long time. If you insist that the moderates are evil because they refuse to bow to the radical extremism, what you will be left with is, well, Trump.

The left wants to blame the rise of Trumpism on the right, but in reality they are, at least, equally at fault, if not at greater fault. The demonization of the moderates in their own party (how many Blue Dogs are left?), and lumping all "Republicans" into the same bucket, has had as much to do with the polarization of discourse as anything Fox has done.

And the reverse is true as well - the loopy left sees how effective the rhetoric of exclusion and intolerance is from the far right, and they have decided they should give it a shot as well, but targetted at different groups is all, often their own.

It actually makes me kind of stunned that the crazy right might actually win this little culture war we are having, only because the regressive left is more worried about whether those on their own side are pure enough for their lofty "ideals" to be tolerated.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 23, 2016, 01:58:55 PM
Yeah they are fully embracing the 'better Hitler than Blum' way of thinking. I have often grumbled about how shitty leftists were as allies during my commitment to clean and renewable energy. They seemed determined to burn coal than dare to embrace a single alternative that was not 100% pure and perfect in everyway.

But frankly I have talked enough about that. The fact that leftists let the perfect destroy the good is well demonstrated. See: British Labour Party.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 01:36:32 PM
There is a lot to that but it seems to be (maybe the older ones here can correct me) is that in previous generation, society didn't indulge these kinds of tantrums.

We never had the New Left?  Radical chic?  Students occupying universities?  Manifestos denouncing capitalist rhetoric?

How quickly we forget.

Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 23, 2016, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 01:36:32 PM
There is a lot to that but it seems to be (maybe the older ones here can correct me) is that in previous generation, society didn't indulge these kinds of tantrums.

We never had the New Left?  Radical chic?  Students occupying universities?  Manifestos denouncing capitalist rhetoric?

How quickly we forget.



Yeah I think we tolerated them just fine. They now just have a bigger platform to dominate the conversation now.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 02:00:41 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 01:36:32 PM
There is a lot to that but it seems to be (maybe the older ones here can correct me) is that in previous generation, society didn't indulge these kinds of tantrums.

We never had the New Left?  Radical chic?  Students occupying universities?  Manifestos denouncing capitalist rhetoric?

How quickly we forget.

Well this is my question, being (I suspect) a bit younger than you. Did institutions back then yield so easily?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Solmyr on September 23, 2016, 02:18:17 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on September 23, 2016, 01:30:01 PM
Old Grey Lady complains about the youth. ;)

Millennials: Young people who grumpy, racist old farts complain about as being "too PC".
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Martinus on September 23, 2016, 02:21:47 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on September 23, 2016, 02:18:17 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on September 23, 2016, 01:30:01 PM
Old Grey Lady complains about the youth. ;)

Millennials: Young people who grumpy, racist old farts complain about as being "too PC".

That's rich coming from a Russian with a moustache.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 23, 2016, 02:23:42 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 01:58:56 PM
We never had the New Left?  Radical chic?  Students occupying universities?  Manifestos denouncing capitalist rhetoric?

How quickly we forget.

"Oh, you were a bomb maker for the Weather Underground?  How mainstream."
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Solmyr on September 23, 2016, 02:24:16 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2016, 02:21:47 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on September 23, 2016, 02:18:17 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on September 23, 2016, 01:30:01 PM
Old Grey Lady complains about the youth. ;)

Millennials: Young people who grumpy, racist old farts complain about as being "too PC".

That's rich coming from a Russian with a moustache.

Says the Russian without a moustache.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 03:08:03 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 02:00:41 PM
Well this is my question, being (I suspect) a bit younger than you. Did institutions back then yield so easily?

You had university campuses being occupied by force (not this softy OWS stuff), professors and administrators being harassed, physically blocked from their offices, loudly heckled and denounced in classrooms.  Far more serious stuff than some wimpy complaints about "micro-aggressions" prompting the uni to release some bureaucratic memo saying sing kumbaya like happens now.

As silly and annoying as this millennial whinyness and infantalism may be, it's a long way off from reaching the sheer zanyness and occasional menace of the New Left at its height in the late 60s and early 70s.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 03:09:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 23, 2016, 01:54:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 23, 2016, 01:35:07 PM
It's a reasonable argument.  Seems to me whenever you read about someone pushing back against PC idiocy it's almost always someone from an older generation, which raises the possibility that as Millenials age the idiocy will become an unchallenged orthodoxy, questioned only by alt-right "fuck her in the pussy" frat boy retards.

It's a completely reasonable argument.

It's one I've been making for a long, long time. If you insist that the moderates are evil because they refuse to bow to the radical extremism, what you will be left with is, well, Trump.

The left wants to blame the rise of Trumpism on the right, but in reality they are, at least, equally at fault, if not at greater fault. The demonization of the moderates in their own party (how many Blue Dogs are left?), and lumping all "Republicans" into the same bucket, has had as much to do with the polarization of discourse as anything Fox has done.

And the reverse is true as well - the loopy left sees how effective the rhetoric of exclusion and intolerance is from the far right, and they have decided they should give it a shot as well, but targetted at different groups is all, often their own.

It actually makes me kind of stunned that the crazy right might actually win this little culture war we are having, only because the regressive left is more worried about whether those on their own side are pure enough for their lofty "ideals" to be tolerated.

Yes, the Democratic party has shifted too far to the left.  That's why Bernie Sander's is now up against Trump.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 03:09:13 PM
Yes, the Democratic party has shifted too far to the left.  That's why Bernie Sander's is now up against Trump.

But his point is that the Democrats are now on the verge of defeat, in part because some of its potential supporters on the left are lukewarm and threatening to walk on the grounds of insufficient ideological purity.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 03:14:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 01:36:32 PM
There is a lot to that but it seems to be (maybe the older ones here can correct me) is that in previous generation, society didn't indulge these kinds of tantrums.

We never had the New Left?  Radical chic?  Students occupying universities?  Manifestos denouncing capitalist rhetoric?

How quickly we forget.

Seriously.  The great movement of the left today, a handful of college kids camping in New York city to "Occupy Wallstreet".  The Great movement of the Left in the 1960's, riots and strikes that nearly cause the collapse of the French Government.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 03:18:24 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 03:09:13 PM
Yes, the Democratic party has shifted too far to the left.  That's why Bernie Sander's is now up against Trump.

But his point is that the Democrats are now on the verge of defeat, in part because some of its potential supporters on the left are lukewarm and threatening to walk on the grounds of insufficient ideological purity.

Really?  He seems to be ranting on about how his beloved segregati- I mean, Blue Dogs are no longer a major part of the party. Something that has been true since the 1990's.

You'll have to ask him.  He won't talk to me.  He said I was too much of a radical leftist tribalist because in supporting Clinton over the moderate Sanders.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 23, 2016, 03:25:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 03:18:24 PM
Really?  He seems to be ranting on about how his beloved segregati- I mean, Blue Dogs are no longer a major part of the party. Something that has been true since the 1990's.

How idiotic is it to announce that Berkut is a racist segregationist? This is just the kind of puritanical garbage he was talking about.

Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Duque de Bragança on September 23, 2016, 03:27:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 03:14:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 23, 2016, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 23, 2016, 01:36:32 PM
There is a lot to that but it seems to be (maybe the older ones here can correct me) is that in previous generation, society didn't indulge these kinds of tantrums.

We never had the New Left?  Radical chic?  Students occupying universities?  Manifestos denouncing capitalist rhetoric?

How quickly we forget.

Seriously.  The great movement of the left today, a handful of college kids camping in New York city to "Occupy Wallstreet".  The Great movement of the Left in the 1960's, riots and strikes that nearly cause the collapse of the French Government.

Nah, Moscow would never have allowed the Communist Trade Union to unite with mao/leftist/whatever students to topple De Gaulle. May '68 is more of a victory for individualism than anything else.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Martinus on September 23, 2016, 03:30:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2016, 03:25:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 03:18:24 PM
Really?  He seems to be ranting on about how his beloved segregati- I mean, Blue Dogs are no longer a major part of the party. Something that has been true since the 1990's.

How idiotic is it to announce that Berkut is a racist segregationist? This is just the kind of puritanical garbage he was talking about.

Raz is insane. He is desperately trying to fit in by embracing some bullshit extremist positions. He is better ignored than debated.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: HVC on September 23, 2016, 03:33:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 23, 2016, 03:30:15 PM
... is desperately trying to fit in by embracing some bullshit extremist positions. He is better ignored than debated.
kettle meet pot
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 23, 2016, 03:43:30 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 23, 2016, 03:33:01 PM
kettle meet pot

You said you would hard return.  :mad:

Disagree that Marty is trying to fit in.  Seems to me he's pursuing some sophomoric strategy of antagonizing people to achieve some sort of iconoclastic ideal.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: HVC on September 23, 2016, 03:47:01 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 23, 2016, 03:43:30 PM
Quote from: HVC on September 23, 2016, 03:33:01 PM
kettle meet pot

You said you would hard return.  :mad:


And I was doing so good :(

And I don't think he's doing it to fit into languish. He's doing it to fit into what he feels is a western counter culture so that he feels less like a backwoods Eastern European. That and because he's and an attention seeking ass :lol:
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 04:28:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 23, 2016, 03:25:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 23, 2016, 03:18:24 PM
Really?  He seems to be ranting on about how his beloved segregati- I mean, Blue Dogs are no longer a major part of the party. Something that has been true since the 1990's.

How idiotic is it to announce that Berkut is a racist segregationist? This is just the kind of puritanical garbage he was talking about.

Good thing I didn't say that, otherwise I'd be idiotic.  Berkut seems to have some odd idea about the conservative wing of the Democratic party that has migrated over to the Republicans since the 1940's. They are not noble fighters against the extreme left, they were segregationists.  I'm perfectly happy that the Strom Thurmond wing switched Republicans.  I think it comes with his obsessive interest in being "non-tribal".  Being a hard right member of a left-wing party doesn't make you noble or moderate or independent.  Likewise, blaming both democrats and republicans for Trump doesn't does not demonstrate your lack of tribe, only your lack of sense.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: mongers on September 23, 2016, 04:42:58 PM
Damn, this thread topic is sub-par; come back Timmay all is forgiven.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Delirium on September 23, 2016, 05:54:55 PM
Good topic and spot on. I was a lefty in the early 2000's but moved on from there. It is partly about growing up and becoming more conservative with age, but also because the left has changed over that time (not to mention since 1968).

The old left, at its best, was about changing society to create a better world for everyone. We were out campaigning against Shell in the late 80's for their supporting apartheid in South Africa (we were 15 years old).

The new left starts social media campaigns about multi-culturalism and that our differences should lead to respect. It leads to relativism. It is about defining groups, not creating societies.

If I were in a position of power and wanted to create a political radicalism for kids and dissidents to involve themselves with I would create a political movement that indulges completely in identity because it is in essence harmless and ultimately irrelevant to the big picture: namely economic distribution of wealth, something the new left do not care about more than selecting which minority should be getting a government grant this week.

The one thing the old and new left have in common is that everything is the United States' fault. And the Jews.

Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Ed Anger on September 23, 2016, 06:19:14 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 23, 2016, 04:42:58 PM
Damn, this thread topic is sub-par; come back Timmay all is forgiven.

No
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 23, 2016, 06:38:08 PM
The Left will never ever survive unless they are a little crazy.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 23, 2016, 06:55:25 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 23, 2016, 06:38:08 PM
The Left will never ever survive unless they are a little crazy.

Bah;  they've survived--and thrived--precisely because they haven't been crazy.  Clintonian centrism made them relevant.  No more Eugene McCarthys Humpreys or Walter Mondales.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: garbon on September 23, 2016, 06:57:20 PM
Fuck, I'd thought we'd already run you off again.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 23, 2016, 07:01:47 PM
Why?  Because it took me longer to get home than usual?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: garbon on September 23, 2016, 07:04:41 PM
Not you. I was off at my employee's wedding so not like I would have noticed. :hug:
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Berkut on September 25, 2016, 01:26:55 AM
I feel almost guilty it was so easy to have Raz stroll straight into the very stereotype of the dumbshit lefty who is willing to cut off his nose to spite his face.

Moderate democrats are segregationists! Who knew! Raz!
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Legbiter on September 25, 2016, 03:10:10 AM
For Hami and other connoisseurs . :thumbsup:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtLfg-lUMAEx7FV.jpg)
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Delirium on September 25, 2016, 05:03:38 AM
Two good examples from this country:

An article on the second biggest gaming convention in the country praised the event, but there was a serious problem that the organizers really needed to turn their attention to: the complete absence of brown or black people.

A culture journalist in a serious newspaper had only one but grievous problem with the final Harry Potter movie: the ending confirmed heterosexual family stereotypes.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: celedhring on September 25, 2016, 05:47:23 AM
Quote from: Delirium on September 25, 2016, 05:03:38 AM
A culture journalist in a serious newspaper had only one but grievous problem with the final Harry Potter movie: the ending confirmed heterosexual family stereotypes.

Pauline Kael (and dozens of others) would have written that in the 1960s. It's actually the whole point of cultural film analysis.

Regarding the other example, I don't see what's wrong with pointing out that minorities are for whatever reason being excluded from gaming culture.

Sure, there's loads of examples of identity politics gone hysterical. But those two are fine imho.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Delirium on September 25, 2016, 07:20:35 AM
Fair points, let me address them.

Quote from: celedhring on September 25, 2016, 05:47:23 AMPauline Kael (and dozens of others) would have written that in the 1960s. It's actually the whole point of cultural film analysis.

In brief, in the 1960s there was nothing but hetero families portrayed. Today, there is anything but. Is it really problematic that a story about wizards ends with two of them (a boy and a girl!) sending their children to Hogwart's? To escape critique, do they have to be childless? Split up and end up gay?

QuoteRegarding the other example, I don't see what's wrong with pointing out that minorities are for whatever reason being excluded from gaming culture.

But are they excluded so much as not interested? Here my view is that this conclusion is relevant in the Houses of Parliament - where are the minorities? But why should a geeky pastime be a matter of counting skin colour? Not to mention that other minorities are present, and warmly embraced, in gaming culture: young and old game side by side, boys, girls, parents, children; transgender people are openly present. Everybody is welcome, right? In this country there was talk about why immigrant children from the Middle-East do not start to play hockey. But why is that an end in itself? Is the country segregated as long as every part of it comes out approved in a background check?

QuoteSure, there's loads of examples of identity politics gone hysterical. But those two are fine imho.

Well, hysterical they are not, but representative of a way of thinking that is quite beyond me. Much as, I suppose, the radicals in the 60s were incomprehensible to their parents. School segregation, skewed representation in parliament, lower wages for women in the same job as men, structuralized racism: those are important issues.

Holding the belief that affirmative action is necessary in all parts of society is something else entirely. Behind it all, I suppose, is the belief that nobody can understand a minority, let alone speak for that minority, except its own members. As for example Kenan Malik has written on numerous occasions this is dangerous: raising more barriers between people, emphasizing differences and distance between peoples. This part of multi-culturalism is bad, pure and simple. We need more people saying we are all the same, not the opposite.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: celedhring on September 25, 2016, 08:24:38 AM
I don't believe that affirmative action has to be present in all parts of society, that's certainly stupid, and we don't live in a society where this happens. But in the case of say, the gaming convention, it is fair to ask the question if minorities are being excluded out of their own volition or if there's something else. I have no answer, but I think it is fair to raise the point, debate it, and then shut it down or not depending on what we find.

Regarding Harry Potter, I think it is also fair to take aim at Hollywood's idea of a happy ending (I know, English book, but bear with me), and the cultural charge that comes behind it. You don't need to think this point is relevant for your enjoyment of the movie - it wouldn't affect mine much certainly - but if pointing the finger to this kind of things leads in the future to more cultural variety in mainstream films, I think we'll all be richer for it. At the end of it all, films are criticized for dozens of stupid and very subjective things, so this one ain't out of order.

Ultimately, those two examples seem to me legitimate discourses - it's not college students trying to get speakers banned or shit like that - which we can agree or disagree with.

Yes, as a leftist I believe income inequality is the #1 priority - and there's a definite race bias to income inequality too so it's not like those are unrelated issues at the end of it all -, but I don't think political discourse is a binary "this or that" thing were we can only focus on a single issue.

On the larger point of the thread. I don't believe we are worse off than in generations past. Thanks to social media we live in an unique era were fringe groups - like the alt right at the other end - have the tools to band together and make their views heard in ways that weren't available to them in times past, and this makes them look stronger even though they don't represent - imho - a significant part of society.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 26, 2016, 11:23:44 AM
Quote from: Delirium on September 25, 2016, 05:03:38 AM
Two good examples from this country:

An article on the second biggest gaming convention in the country praised the event, but there was a serious problem that the organizers really needed to turn their attention to: the complete absence of brown or black people.

If a mass market industry appears to be failing to reach large segments of the population, isn't that a problem for the industry?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Delirium on September 26, 2016, 01:45:04 PM
I do not believe that counting heads of different colour at any gathering of people that is entirely voluntary and apolitical is proof of anything at all except the intent of the person doing the counting to assign characteristics to people based on their looks. It was wrong when it was done a hundred years ago, and it is still as wrong today.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: garbon on September 26, 2016, 01:50:31 PM
Quote from: Delirium on September 26, 2016, 01:45:04 PM
I do not believe that counting heads of different colour at any gathering of people that is entirely voluntary and apolitical is proof of anything at all except the intent of the person doing the counting to assign characteristics to people based on their looks. It was wrong when it was done a hundred years ago, and it is still as wrong today.

I don't see why it isn't worth at least questioning and then likely dismissing?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: grumbler on September 26, 2016, 02:02:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2016, 01:50:31 PM
Quote from: Delirium on September 26, 2016, 01:45:04 PM
I do not believe that counting heads of different colour at any gathering of people that is entirely voluntary and apolitical is proof of anything at all except the intent of the person doing the counting to assign characteristics to people based on their looks. It was wrong when it was done a hundred years ago, and it is still as wrong today.

I don't see why it isn't worth at least questioning and then likely dismissing?

Questioning by whom, based on what?  Dismissing by whom, based on what?  Who or what is the authority on how many minorities must attend a convention in order for that convention to avoid "questioning?"

I think that it would make an interesting topic of discussion here, but I don't think we know enough to go from discussion to judgement.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Brain on September 26, 2016, 02:21:47 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 26, 2016, 11:23:44 AM
Quote from: Delirium on September 25, 2016, 05:03:38 AM
Two good examples from this country:

An article on the second biggest gaming convention in the country praised the event, but there was a serious problem that the organizers really needed to turn their attention to: the complete absence of brown or black people.

If a mass market industry appears to be failing to reach large segments of the population, isn't that a problem for the industry?

Much like my underwear it depends.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: garbon on September 26, 2016, 02:28:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 26, 2016, 02:02:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2016, 01:50:31 PM
Quote from: Delirium on September 26, 2016, 01:45:04 PM
I do not believe that counting heads of different colour at any gathering of people that is entirely voluntary and apolitical is proof of anything at all except the intent of the person doing the counting to assign characteristics to people based on their looks. It was wrong when it was done a hundred years ago, and it is still as wrong today.

I don't see why it isn't worth at least questioning and then likely dismissing?

Questioning by whom, based on what?  Dismissing by whom, based on what?  Who or what is the authority on how many minorities must attend a convention in order for that convention to avoid "questioning?"

I think that it would make an interesting topic of discussion here, but I don't think we know enough to go from discussion to judgement.

But that's sort of the stance that I'm taking. Based on the information provided I don't see why that is a question that isn't worth asking. I'm not making a judgement that there must be something intrinsically wrong as I did also suggest that one might likely dismiss it.

As to why I might think one might want to ask the question, well Joan noted a stance from the runners of the association themselves, might be missing out on potential revenue streams. Also maybe asking from an increasing happiness perspective, specifically that there might be non-white gamers who would be happy to join in but for some reason feel inhibited or prevent in some way.

Basically, I don't see why one should be against posing the question unless, of course, the question is solely being posed to make the association out to be evil and or racist. Then yes, I think it probably is best left unasked.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: grumbler on September 26, 2016, 04:07:35 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2016, 02:28:06 PM
But that's sort of the stance that I'm taking. Based on the information provided I don't see why that is a question that isn't worth asking. I'm not making a judgement that there must be something intrinsically wrong as I did also suggest that one might likely dismiss it.

As to why I might think one might want to ask the question, well Joan noted a stance from the runners of the association themselves, might be missing out on potential revenue streams. Also maybe asking from an increasing happiness perspective, specifically that there might be non-white gamers who would be happy to join in but for some reason feel inhibited or prevent in some way.

Basically, I don't see why one should be against posing the question unless, of course, the question is solely being posed to make the association out to be evil and or racist. Then yes, I think it probably is best left unasked.

Then we are in agreement, and i was misreading your position.  The original report was about an article that said that the organizers of the convention had "a serious problem that the organizers really needed to turn their attention to."  That's reaching judgement, not asking questions.  That is what i thought the debate was about.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Savonarola on September 26, 2016, 04:12:29 PM
When I was in college in the early 90s "Multiculturalism" was the hot topic.  Our freshman English text was something called "Rereading America" which was supposed to introduce the student to a broad multi-cultural perspective (it consisted mostly of hard luck stories and bad Spanglish poetry.)  I also had to read "Women's Oppression Today the Marxist-Feminist Encounter," in which I learned that all men are potential rapists1.  DWEMs (dead white European males) was a pejorative term in the humanities and their perspective was one to be abhorred.  Worse still was "Eurocentrism." One of our profs wrote a paper critical of Apple hypercard; by using icons familiar to the white male paradigm, such as scissors for cut or glue for paste, they had reinforced white male supremacy in the workplace.

Today, like most of my undergraduate experience, this is all a comical memory.  In twenty years safe spaces and trigger warnings will be a similar memory for the students of today.  The left survived my generation; it'll survive this one as well.

1.)  Are you living up to your potential?  Are you?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: Delirium on September 25, 2016, 07:20:35 AM
But are they excluded so much as not interested? Here my view is that this conclusion is relevant in the Houses of Parliament - where are the minorities? But why should a geeky pastime be a matter of counting skin colour? Not to mention that other minorities are present, and warmly embraced, in gaming culture: young and old game side by side, boys, girls, parents, children; transgender people are openly present. Everybody is welcome, right? In this country there was talk about why immigrant children from the Middle-East do not start to play hockey. But why is that an end in itself? Is the country segregated as long as every part of it comes out approved in a background check?

Personally I'd be pretty curious why non-white Swedes end up being "not interested" in gaming. I don't think the answer is necessarily going to be because there's anything wrong with gamers or gamer culture in Sweden (though there could be - gamergate has surfaced some fairly toxic elements in gamer culture, though that doesn't mean it's relevant to Swedish gamer culture). But if one of the biggest visible expressions of gamer culture is almost purely white disproportionate to the population demographics, it may be worth looking at the reasons.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Brain on September 26, 2016, 04:20:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: Delirium on September 25, 2016, 07:20:35 AM
But are they excluded so much as not interested? Here my view is that this conclusion is relevant in the Houses of Parliament - where are the minorities? But why should a geeky pastime be a matter of counting skin colour? Not to mention that other minorities are present, and warmly embraced, in gaming culture: young and old game side by side, boys, girls, parents, children; transgender people are openly present. Everybody is welcome, right? In this country there was talk about why immigrant children from the Middle-East do not start to play hockey. But why is that an end in itself? Is the country segregated as long as every part of it comes out approved in a background check?

Personally I'd be pretty curious why non-white Swedes end up being "not interested" in gaming. I don't think the answer is necessarily going to be because there's anything wrong with gamers or gamer culture in Sweden (though there could be - gamergate has surfaced some fairly toxic elements in gamer culture, though that doesn't mean it's relevant to Swedish gamer culture). But if one of the biggest visible expressions of gamer culture is almost purely white disproportionate to the population demographics, it may be worth looking at the reasons.

To whom?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Legbiter on September 26, 2016, 04:31:15 PM
Progressives are the new church lady, tut tutting the immorality all around us.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 26, 2016, 04:49:42 PM
My understanding of the economics of game design is that there are significant up front development costs but unit variable costs are tiny.  So maximizing revenue is critical. 

If segment "X" is 10% of the population and only 2% of sales, and there is no obvious reason why segment "X" would not be interested in the produce, then the industry is just throwing money out the window.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 05:06:49 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 26, 2016, 04:20:22 PMTo whom?

To people who would like to increase their sales, to people who would like to improve their marketing reach, and to people who are interested in society and how it functions.

That doesn't mean it'll be interesting to you, of course.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 05:07:59 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on September 26, 2016, 04:31:15 PM
Progressives are the new church lady, tut tutting the immorality all around us.

For what it's worth, you and Hami seem to be some of the primary tut-tutters of languish. Barely a day goes by without one of you posting something you think tut-tut worthy or tut-tutting in an existing thread.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 26, 2016, 05:20:16 PM
Sure it's nice from a commercial POV to reach markets that are not currently being tapped, but if Del's paraphrasing that "it's a serious problem" was accurate, increasing market penetration has nothing to do with the author's point.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Siege on September 26, 2016, 05:24:17 PM
Millenials aint that bad...
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Martinus on September 26, 2016, 05:25:28 PM
I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated. :bleeding:
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Legbiter on September 26, 2016, 05:26:32 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 05:07:59 PMFor what it's worth, you and Hami seem to be some of the primary tut-tutters of languish. Barely a day goes by without one of you posting something you think tut-tut worthy or tut-tutting in an existing thread.

:console:
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: mongers on September 26, 2016, 05:30:11 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2016, 05:25:28 PM
I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated. :bleeding:

I'd like to say hello to Fahdiz and Buddha, but I ain't going onto facebook.

Marty do me a favour, please, and say hello on my behalf next time you fellows 'speak'.  :)
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 05:42:55 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on September 26, 2016, 05:26:32 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 05:07:59 PMFor what it's worth, you and Hami seem to be some of the primary tut-tutters of languish. Barely a day goes by without one of you posting something you think tut-tut worthy or tut-tutting in an existing thread.

:console:

It's alright. Your mopey whining gives people something to talk about :)
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: mongers on September 26, 2016, 05:46:30 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 05:42:55 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on September 26, 2016, 05:26:32 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 05:07:59 PMFor what it's worth, you and Hami seem to be some of the primary tut-tutters of languish. Barely a day goes by without one of you posting something you think tut-tut worthy or tut-tutting in an existing thread.

:console:

It's alright. Your mopey whining gives people something to talk about :)

Thought it's real thin gruel; doesn't exactly nourish the soul.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 26, 2016, 10:59:47 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 26, 2016, 05:30:11 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2016, 05:25:28 PM
I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated. :bleeding:

I'd like to say hello to Fahdiz and Buddha, but I ain't going onto facebook.

Marty do me a favour, please, and say hello on my behalf next time you fellows 'speak'.  :)

Fahdiz will pop by when the Cubs win the World Series.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 27, 2016, 10:14:47 AM
The problem with cultural appropriation is that there isn't enough.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Jacob on September 27, 2016, 11:19:01 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 27, 2016, 10:14:47 AM
The problem with cultural appropriation is that there isn't enough.

Culture? Or appropriation?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2016, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2016, 05:25:28 PM
I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated. :bleeding:

Oh, they can handle Facebook but can't handle here?  Fling pooh at them for me, please.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 11:52:20 AM
Buddha is a little touchy on Facebook. At one point she posted some really inflammatory stuff calling the Canadian Conservatives fascist monsters or whatever and some Languish member, think it was a Scandi, replied she was being unfair. She didn't take it well. I unfollowed after that. God bless her but if you are going to accuse everybody of being evil you at least should expect somebody to say 'hey maybe you are going too far there Buddha'.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2016, 11:55:33 AM
Your rights end where my feelings begin.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Jacob on September 27, 2016, 12:32:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 11:52:20 AM
Buddha is a little touchy on Facebook. At one point she posted some really inflammatory stuff calling the Canadian Conservatives fascist monsters or whatever and some Languish member, think it was a Scandi, replied she was being unfair. She didn't take it well. I unfollowed after that. God bless her but if you are going to accuse everybody of being evil you at least should expect somebody to say 'hey maybe you are going too far there Buddha'.

She's been pretty clear, actually - she uses her Facebook page to vent. She's not looking for arguments or debates. Her FB page is not a message board for people to get their debating jollies. If you don't like what she posts, don't read her page - which you did, so good on you :)

CdM, the thing FB has over a place like languish is that everyone can moderate what they see. On languish, when someone deliberately trolls her she has to rely on the mods to step in, which we don't. On FB, she can block whoever she doesn't want to deal with. So yeah, FB is a fair bit better if you want a measure of control over the type and timing of BS you deal with.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Razgovory on September 27, 2016, 12:56:43 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2016, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2016, 05:25:28 PM
I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated. :bleeding:

Oh, they can handle Facebook but can't handle here?  Fling pooh at them for me, please.

I did. :)
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 27, 2016, 01:14:54 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 27, 2016, 11:19:01 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 27, 2016, 10:14:47 AM
The problem with cultural appropriation is that there isn't enough.

Culture? Or appropriation?

Both
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: garbon on September 27, 2016, 01:22:43 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 27, 2016, 01:14:54 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 27, 2016, 11:19:01 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 27, 2016, 10:14:47 AM
The problem with cultural appropriation is that there isn't enough.

Culture? Or appropriation?

Both

Come this time next year, we're going to have so much culture and appropriation that you're going to be so sick and tired of culture and appropriation.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Malthus on September 27, 2016, 01:29:59 PM
I do think that "cultural appropriation" is one of the most foolish concerns ever dreamed up. What is the hoped-for outcome?

The notion appears to be that those historically with "power" not "appropriate" the cultures of others (the reverse is apparently okay).

Assume people actually did this, as they are allegedly supposed to. What's the outcome? It looks suspiciously like what the extreme right would like - those in "power" (presumably, Western Whites) maintain and practice "their" culture free of "contamination" by "others", while those "others" gradually adopt (or "appropriate") elements of the culture of the powerful. 

Why is this a good thing?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: celedhring on September 27, 2016, 01:35:03 PM
I never got the hysteria over this to be frank. The history of human culture is one of constant appropriation, and we are all richer for that. If the complain is that such appropriation is somehow shallow and thus disrespectful, then well, welcome to 90% of pop culture.  :hmm:
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 01:36:28 PM
Yeah I can understand we don't want the outright stealing of shit, but then we have ridiculously broad and eternal copyright laws for that.

But otherwise this seems weirdly similar to white supremacists outlawing jazz music. I won't say which ones did that, but you can probably guess.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 01:37:48 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 27, 2016, 01:35:03 PM
I never got the hysteria over this to be frank. The history of human culture is one of constant appropriation, and we are all richer for that. If the complain is that such appropriation is somehow shallow and thus disrespectful, then well, welcome to 90% of pop culture.  :hmm:

I think it is just frustration with tackiness.

Also with having minority groups doing something for awhile and then one ethnically acceptable person doing it and suddenly THAT person becomes the star. Which sucks, but hardly a warcrime.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Hamilcar on September 27, 2016, 01:39:37 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 27, 2016, 01:29:59 PM
I do think that "cultural appropriation" is one of the most foolish concerns ever dreamed up. What is the hoped-for outcome?

Total segregation. Ironically, they appropriated many of their ideas from other groups and cultures, such as French postmodern philosophers and primitive tribal cultures with strong yet irrational taboos.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: garbon on September 27, 2016, 01:40:24 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 27, 2016, 01:29:59 PM
I do think that "cultural appropriation" is one of the most foolish concerns ever dreamed up. What is the hoped-for outcome?

The notion appears to be that those historically with "power" not "appropriate" the cultures of others (the reverse is apparently okay).

Assume people actually did this, as they are allegedly supposed to. What's the outcome? It looks suspiciously like what the extreme right would like - those in "power" (presumably, Western Whites) maintain and practice "their" culture free of "contamination" by "others", while those "others" gradually adopt (or "appropriate") elements of the culture of the powerful. 

Why is this a good thing?

As they supposedly do? Uh white people be doing that all the time. I think it might have been a good thing had say black artists been able to make money off their own work rather than say white artists picking it up and making the money in the mainstream as was done a lot during what the first half or so of the 20th century?

Here's a bit for you that I just looked up now from a recent LA Times article:

http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-ca-jc-appropriation-culture-20160926-snap-story.html

QuoteCultural appropriation: It's about more than pho and sombreros

College students in blackface. A white chef telling people how to eat Vietnamese pho. Students of color who consider bad sushi in the dining hall to be a cultural insult. A white writer writing about nonwhite people in a clumsy fashion. These are some of the incidents of "cultural appropriation," as some would call them, that have provoked important questions: Who owns culture? Who has the right to speak for a culture? Are minorities too sensitive? Do identity politics encourage conformity in thinking? What happened to the right to free speech?

Extremists exist on either side of the debate. On one side, libertarians of free speech argue that anyone should be able to say anything. From this view, minority protests against stereotypes and appropriation limit the imagination, art and dialogue. On the other side, people are speaking up loudly about their cultures being hijacked.

Though some people are admittedly too sensitive about their culture, they are not all minorities. White people have proved that they too engage in identity politics. Whiteness, which has for centuries been unmatched in its dominance, and hence could be the invisible norm, is in something of a crisis as vocal minorities challenge it.

The sensitivity over culture cannot be understood in isolation from deeply entrenched histories of colonization, exploitation and inequality. When African Americans point to white people appropriating black music and profiting from it, it is not simply an issue of whether white people can enjoy and adapt black music. African Americans are also remembering how white people enslaved black people and profited from their labor, and how that racist system is passed down to an environment in which white people own the record companies, the concert venues and the radio stations. With this inherited power, they can exploit black musicians and promote white musicians.

When the inhabitants of poor, urban neighborhoods that have become hip bemoan gentrification, they are not simply being resentful against newcomers who are white, Asian or wealthy. These newcomers may believe they are making their neighborhoods more attractive, but many are unaware that decades of racial covenants, redlining and white flight created the segregated areas they are moving into. The appearance of the white hipster in neighborhoods that white people abandoned long ago remind the current residents that they don't truly own where they live. Their lives are subject to economic forces they don't control and to the desires of people wealthier than they are.

And it's not simply people of color who feel this way. Many white people do as well. For much of American history, white people benefited from a society built at the expense of people of color whose land was taken or whose labor was exploited. Now, that economic system has left many working-class and middle-class whites behind. They see shrinking paychecks, lost blue-collar jobs, the hollowing out of industries and small towns, the destruction of pensions, and they may blame those who appear different from themselves: black people who seemingly don't work hard enough or Latinos and Asians who seemingly work too hard and for too little.

Once the majority, white Americans are understandably scared about their inevitable decline into a minority population. The country is diversifying as California already has; Latinos have outnumbered whites in the state since 2015, and demographers predict whites will become a minority in the United States by 2060. While some white people scoff at the complaints of minorities, they seem implicitly to understand that being a minority has not always been a pleasant experience — hence their fear of becoming a minority. These white people demand their country back, a more prosperous America where they once owned the culture. They too fear cultural appropriation, except that in this case it means the loss of the privileges that were long a benefit of whiteness, privileges which people of color appear to be taking.

Thus we have the battle lines drawn in what pundits of the 1990s called the "culture wars." We are still fighting those wars, but to think that we are fighting only over culture misses the point. We are also fighting over ownership, property, profits, rights and lives, as we have been for centuries. The cultural things we fight over — food, neighborhoods, music, literature, the flag, the national anthem — are symbols of that history. It's no surprise that those who have earned large or small profits from that history see these fights in a different way than those who have been deprived because of that history.

How to move forward? First, recognize the history of economic appropriation that makes possible cultural appropriation. Without such a recognition, we will continue to fight the wrong battle. Though it has been important for political progress in this country to organize around cultures and identities, these types of struggles won't fundamentally change how some people benefit from an economic system built on racial discrimination and many others don't.

Second, engage in careful and curious conversation with people different from ourselves, both in terms of demographics and ideas. When I say careful, I mean that it is possible to use one's free speech and yet also be respectful and ethical. It is advisable not to insult people, as in the case of a white author wearing a sombrero to make her point about cultural oversensitivity. When I say curious, I mean that too many of us are not interested in the lives of others, if my experience with my airplane seatmates is any indication. Too many people would rather talk about themselves rather than ask questions of others.

Third, accept criticism. People of all sides revert to human nature by seeing the failures of their opponents and not their own side. Examining ourselves and acknowledging our mistakes and excesses is difficult, but without doing so, it is too easy to look down on others without realizing that we do many of the same things we accuse others of doing. When it comes to identity politics, this means acknowledging that people sometimes are too sensitive, and that includes white people.

Fourth, practice solidarity. Reject the politics of division that have existed in this country since the 17th century, when white property owners convinced poor whites that their interests aligned with wealthy whites rather than indentured and enslaved blacks. Today's aggrieved white working class would be better off building alliances with working-class people of other cultures, and vice versa, rather than be seduced by the call to build walls. The reality is that walls won't keep people out, and walls won't keep profits in. 

As for those of us who are writers, whose work is all about culture: No one told us our job would be easy. For centuries, though, the job was easier for white writers who could get published and who could say anything they wanted about anyone, anywhere. Now those people who were written about are writing back and speaking out. They demand a conversation, they criticize, and sometimes they are too sensitive. But they are not silencing anyone. The ones who are truly silenced are the ones who cannot get published.

The ones who can get published simply have to do their research, know that their audiences are more diverse, brace themselves for pushback, and understand that saying whatever one wants is not necessarily a sign of artistry. It is just as likely an artless provocation. It is possible to write about others not like oneself, if one understands that this is not simply an act of culture and free speech, but one that is enmeshed in a complicated, painful history of ownership and division that needs to be addressed responsibly — that is to say, with great artistry — in one's writing.

If all of this seems too difficult, then you understand why people would rather fight over things like food, and why building walls may seem easier than building bridges.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: garbon on September 27, 2016, 01:46:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 01:37:48 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 27, 2016, 01:35:03 PM
I never got the hysteria over this to be frank. The history of human culture is one of constant appropriation, and we are all richer for that. If the complain is that such appropriation is somehow shallow and thus disrespectful, then well, welcome to 90% of pop culture.  :hmm:

I think it is just frustration with tackiness.

Also with having minority groups doing something for awhile and then one ethnically acceptable person doing it and suddenly THAT person becomes the star. Which sucks, but hardly a warcrime.

Except you are missing that it was often stuff that was used to also put down, oppress and 'other' minority groups that is suddenly being vaunted as the height of culture. And that's where the issue lies - not just avoiding what is tacky.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 01:51:33 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 27, 2016, 01:46:52 PM
Except you are missing that it was often stuff that was used to also put down, oppress and 'other' minority groups that is suddenly being vaunted as the height of culture. And that's where the issue lies - not just avoiding what is tacky.

Stuff that puts down, oppresses, and 'other's minority groups already has a term for it.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: celedhring on September 27, 2016, 01:52:42 PM
Pat Boone sucks compared to the black guys he stole songs from. Isn't just better to focus the fight in getting the recognition minority artists rightly deserve instead of shutting off white dudes using those forms of expression?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Malthus on September 27, 2016, 01:57:21 PM
The articles strike me as simple envy and resentment. Which, while understandable, make a bad reason to base a taboo on.

The real question they avoid is: 'so, I now agree cultural appropriation is bad and wrong. What now?'

The obvious answer is 'avoid doing it'. So, no more adoption, or "appropriation", of the culture of the less-privileged 'others'. Great! Problem solved! Only, it won't solve anything. The privileged will remain privileged and the unprivileged will remain unprivileged. Only, everyone will be worse off because culture will be more ghettoized.

The presumption appears to be that if privileged westerners stopped "appropriating", they would somehow pay beaucoup bucks to the non-privileged who "own" the culture in question to gain access to it (who will, presumably, become less unprivileged in the process). No evidence is provided that this would actually happen. 
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 27, 2016, 02:01:46 PM
A lot of it seems a variation on racial quotas to me.  Why the hell can't a haole show me how to eat pho?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: garbon on September 27, 2016, 02:02:08 PM
Sorry, I don't have energy to fight this battle today. I do think it a bit...improper(?) to dismiss out of hand what minorities are telling you that they feel or denigrate it by labeling it as simple envy and resentment.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: garbon on September 27, 2016, 02:03:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 27, 2016, 02:01:46 PM
A lot of it seems a variation on racial quotas to me.  Why the hell can't a haole show me how to eat pho?

In here is a bit about it though I can't copy and paste as website prevents it.

http://www.alternet.org/culture/cultural-appropriation-pho-lionel-shriver-jamie-oliver-marc-jacobs
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 27, 2016, 02:07:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 27, 2016, 01:40:24 PM
I think it might have been a good thing had say black artists been able to make money off their own work rather than say white artists picking it up and making the money in the mainstream as was done a lot during what the first half or so of the 20th century?

Well sure.  But the problem isn't Elvis making money; it's that not enough black artists did (although some did like Nat King Cole).

White musicians appropriated the hell out of Louis Armstrong and the great swing bands - it's unfair that Benny Goodman or Tommy Dorsey made more money than Chick Webb or Count Basie, but their commercial success enlarged the reach of the music, which is a good thing.  Not to mention the great bands of that era all plundered Tin Pan Alley. 

Louis Armstrong helped launched the career of thousands of musicians of all races.  His biggest hits were recordings of songs by George Weiss, Kurt Weil,  and Jerry Herman, among others.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 27, 2016, 02:02:08 PM
Sorry, I don't have energy to fight this battle today. I do think it a bit...improper(?) to dismiss out of hand what minorities are telling you that they feel or denigrate it by labeling it as simple envy and resentment.

I am simply critiquing the idea of cultural appropriation and why I don't think it is a good concept.

If you feel that is a good concept I should apply to my life then explain how and why. Not why people are angry about bad stuff, bad stuff does not mean that any and every bad idea in opposition to it should be embraced.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 27, 2016, 02:11:15 PM
"Again, it was perfectly fine for the chef to do so, but to convolute popular Asian dishes by suggesting one has become the new other inadvertently presents Asian food (and consequently, culture) as a monolith. Moreover, to condescendingly suggest that pho, which hails from Vietnam, has not been eaten the right way until it has been assimilated into a hip, Western food by those with the power and privilege to do so is exactly the sort of interaction that turns cultural exchange into cultural appropriation. Many Asian Americans and particularly those of Vietnamese descent were livid, and Bon Appétit eventually removed the video and issued an apology."


Unless Bon Apetit magazine was saying Vietnamese have been eating pho the wrong way for thousands of years, this (from Grab On's link) is just another example of fabricating grievance.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Malthus on September 27, 2016, 02:11:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 27, 2016, 02:02:08 PM
Sorry, I don't have energy to fight this battle today. I do think it a bit...improper(?) to dismiss out of hand what minorities are telling you that they feel or denigrate it by labeling it as simple envy and resentment.

Nothing wrong with minorities telling folks how they feel. Hell, there is nothing wrong with envy or resentment. I feel both all the time towards people who have stuff better than me.  :)

What's wrong, is making positive proscriptions about what others should do based on these concerns, where by doing so everyone - including the minorities in question - becomes worse off.

The expression here is "to cut off your nose to spite your face". That's why this is a stupid battle. It is basically aimed at exactly those in the "privileged" group most likely to express concern for, and to listen to, the "unprivileged". Cultural appropriation is a way of paving the way towards acceptance of culture from the source; cutting it off is self-defeating.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Minsky Moment on September 27, 2016, 02:13:14 PM
We can imagine a world where blues music never made its way out the Mississippi Delta, and jazz was confined to a few dance halls in and around New Orleans.  There would be no appropriation but it wouldn't have helped the musicians much and the world would be a much crappier place for it. 
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 02:17:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 27, 2016, 02:03:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 27, 2016, 02:01:46 PM
A lot of it seems a variation on racial quotas to me.  Why the hell can't a haole show me how to eat pho?

In here is a bit about it though I can't copy and paste as website prevents it.

http://www.alternet.org/culture/cultural-appropriation-pho-lionel-shriver-jamie-oliver-marc-jacobs

QuoteSo what makes cultural exchange different from cultural appropriation? As with most points of cultural contention, the difference is power. In particular, the power of the privileged to borrow and normalize a cultural element of another group, while the appropriated group is often demonized and excluded because of that very cultural element.

Let me point out that not even in this article is the writer consistently applying this standard.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2016, 02:18:40 PM
More of a Texas Gospel fan myself, so I culturally appropriated Blind Willie Johnson by wearing contact lenses.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Malthus on September 27, 2016, 02:24:03 PM
Here's a fine example from Garbon's article:

QuoteAs a Nigerian, I could easily empathize. A few years ago when the popular English chef Jamie Oliver came out with his own recipe for Jollof rice, a West African dish that West Africans themselves debate who makes it the best, many all over the diaspora took to the internet to reject it and let him know, thanks, but no thanks. If Jollof is to be the international sensation it ought to be, it will not be Jamie Oliver who makes it so. (Also, as a Nigerian, I never miss an opportunity to state a truth: Nigerian Jollof is the best. End of story.)

... so this author would rather that a national dish of his country not be popularized, than be popularized by an "English chef". He doesn't appear to realize, or care, that every Nigerian wishing to market this dish outside of West Africa would be better off if it were popularized by a famous English chef: few Westerners are likely to be able to afford Jamie Oliver's cooking, but they are surely more likely to buy "Jollof" from a Nigerian cook if they have heard of it.   
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 02:26:52 PM
Again how does his standard apply here? Nigerians are not persecuted for making rice dishes. Vietnamese are not persecuted for eating Vietnamese food.

I will applaud the author for at least putting forth a standard, a way to determine if something is cultural appropriation or not. That is refreshing.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Berkut on September 27, 2016, 02:50:33 PM
I guess I can kinda sorta understand garbon's point.

But what he is really talking about is that there is the possibility (even the likelihood) that people in positions of economic power are likely to exploit those in weak economic positions. That happens across the entire spectrum of cultural activity.

When it happens around some facet that we primarily identify as "cultural" - music, food, speech, whatever, we seem to want to call it "cultural appropriation" and think it is some kind of uniquely objectionable crime.

But that is just silly - there is nothing worse about some record label exploiting a black musician because the broader culture has found black culture music desirable and that label executive has the ability to make money off that desirability than some wealthy factory owner being able to exploit some kid working in his fabric factory because shirts are desirable and he has a position of economic power.

These are the same thing, no substantial difference in kind.

The problem though, the practical problem, is the danger that identifying and exaggerating this problem as being different and exceptionally objectionable will never, ever have the effect of making the economically powerful suddenly deciding to generously stop exploiting the weak if they identify a valuable commodity...but it may very well have the effect of just decreasing the actual value of the commodity, which hurts the very people it is intended to help.

If people decide that liking rap is exploitive, that isn't going to help rappers. If people decide that liking pho isn't really cool if you are white, it won't help Vietnamese restaurants. While I am sure people will insist that that is NOT the purpose of their issues, it is the practical effect.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Berkut on September 27, 2016, 02:56:13 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 27, 2016, 02:24:03 PM
Here's a fine example from Garbon's article:

QuoteAs a Nigerian, I could easily empathize. A few years ago when the popular English chef Jamie Oliver came out with his own recipe for Jollof rice, a West African dish that West Africans themselves debate who makes it the best, many all over the diaspora took to the internet to reject it and let him know, thanks, but no thanks. If Jollof is to be the international sensation it ought to be, it will not be Jamie Oliver who makes it so. (Also, as a Nigerian, I never miss an opportunity to state a truth: Nigerian Jollof is the best. End of story.)

... so this author would rather that a national dish of his country not be popularized, than be popularized by an "English chef". He doesn't appear to realize, or care, that every Nigerian wishing to market this dish outside of West Africa would be better off if it were popularized by a famous English chef: few Westerners are likely to be able to afford Jamie Oliver's cooking, but they are surely more likely to buy "Jollof" from a Nigerian cook if they have heard of it.   

Exactly.

If me, being some middle class white guy, decides "Jollof? Isn't that that rice that everyone was complaining about? Sounds tempting...but is this restaurant authentic? Am I being a insensitive oaf if I eat it from some place that isn't "real" enough? Fuck it, I will just have pizza instead..." that sure as hell doesn't help anyone but the pizza guy, who presumably has been so thoroughly appropriated that he doesn't care anymore.

Further....who is to say that "Nigerian Jollof is the best. Period.". That is just silly. For all I know, jollof is this wonderful stuff, but would be 2x better if only it had (insert ingredient X that is not available in Nigeria). Nothing is beyond improvement, and I am 100% confident that jolloff, which I have never even had, did not spring into being exactly as it is served now in Nigeria without being an adaption from some other dish that almost certainly had its origins somewhere other than Nigeria.

Like rice in general.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Martinus on September 27, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2016, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2016, 05:25:28 PM
I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated. :bleeding:

Oh, they can handle Facebook but can't handle here?  Fling pooh at them for me, please.

I can't. Buddha has blocked me. I think it was after she posted an anti-fat-shaming meme with the caption "Don't let your brain bully your body", and I responded "Well, that ship has sailed, hasn't it?"
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 02:58:36 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 27, 2016, 02:56:13 PM
Further....who is to say that "Nigerian Jollof is the best. Period."

I think he was making a joke about how prideful Nigerians are or something.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Berkut on September 27, 2016, 02:59:17 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 02:58:36 PM
Quote from: Berkut on September 27, 2016, 02:56:13 PM
Further....who is to say that "Nigerian Jollof is the best. Period."

I think he was making a joke about how prideful Nigerians are or something.

Yeah, I took it as one of those jokes that are not really a joke.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Admiral Yi on September 27, 2016, 03:02:07 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 27, 2016, 02:58:36 PM
I think he was making a joke about how prideful Nigerians are or something.

I thought it was a straight line.  It certainly was consistent with the rest of his screed.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Martinus on September 27, 2016, 03:04:07 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 27, 2016, 01:57:21 PM
The articles strike me as simple envy and resentment. Which, while understandable, make a bad reason to base a taboo on.

The real question they avoid is: 'so, I now agree cultural appropriation is bad and wrong. What now?'

The obvious answer is 'avoid doing it'. So, no more adoption, or "appropriation", of the culture of the less-privileged 'others'. Great! Problem solved! Only, it won't solve anything. The privileged will remain privileged and the unprivileged will remain unprivileged. Only, everyone will be worse off because culture will be more ghettoized.

The presumption appears to be that if privileged westerners stopped "appropriating", they would somehow pay beaucoup bucks to the non-privileged who "own" the culture in question to gain access to it (who will, presumably, become less unprivileged in the process). No evidence is provided that this would actually happen.

To hell with Shakespeare, Wagner and Mozart.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Razgovory on September 27, 2016, 03:05:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 27, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2016, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2016, 05:25:28 PM
I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated. :bleeding:

Oh, they can handle Facebook but can't handle here?  Fling pooh at them for me, please.

I can't. Buddha has blocked me. I think it was after she posted an anti-fat-shaming meme with the caption "Don't let your brain bully your body", and I responded "Well, that ship has sailed, hasn't it?"

And you block me!
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Martinus on September 27, 2016, 03:06:37 PM
Cultural appropriation is a vehicle for morons who are ignorant of how culture operates to get indignant about something. It's the sign of inferior mind.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Martinus on September 27, 2016, 03:07:02 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 27, 2016, 03:05:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 27, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 27, 2016, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2016, 05:25:28 PM
I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated. :bleeding:

Oh, they can handle Facebook but can't handle here?  Fling pooh at them for me, please.

I can't. Buddha has blocked me. I think it was after she posted an anti-fat-shaming meme with the caption "Don't let your brain bully your body", and I responded "Well, that ship has sailed, hasn't it?"

And you block me!

Mainly because you are a creepy stalker.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Brain on September 27, 2016, 04:41:09 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 26, 2016, 05:06:49 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 26, 2016, 04:20:22 PMTo whom?

To people who would like to increase their sales, to people who would like to improve their marketing reach, and to people who are interested in society and how it functions.

That doesn't mean it'll be interesting to you, of course.

Just because you don't sell to a subset of the population doesn't mean that it's worth pursuing that subset.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Martinus on September 27, 2016, 04:49:48 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 26, 2016, 04:49:42 PM
My understanding of the economics of game design is that there are significant up front development costs but unit variable costs are tiny.  So maximizing revenue is critical. 

If segment "X" is 10% of the population and only 2% of sales, and there is no obvious reason why segment "X" would not be interested in the produce, then the industry is just throwing money out the window.

Aren't most non-whites in Sweden poor immigrants from Africa? If so, not exactly the demographics you want to spend a lot of money targetting with a leisure high tech product, I'd imagine.

Besides, even for a product with high up front development costs and tiny unit variable costs, if your product is selling reasonably well with the general public but seems not to be of interest to a minor demographics, the solution is not as simple as "just start selling it to the minor demographics". You have to run a research why they are not buying the product, analyse the results, and adjust your marketing campaign - or even the product itself. All of this costs money - and the potential benefits may simply not be worth it.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: The Brain on September 27, 2016, 04:53:51 PM
Like so much on the left the idea that dissemination of culture is bad is completely retarded.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: alfred russel on September 27, 2016, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 27, 2016, 02:24:03 PM
Here's a fine example from Garbon's article:

QuoteAs a Nigerian, I could easily empathize. A few years ago when the popular English chef Jamie Oliver came out with his own recipe for Jollof rice, a West African dish that West Africans themselves debate who makes it the best, many all over the diaspora took to the internet to reject it and let him know, thanks, but no thanks. If Jollof is to be the international sensation it ought to be, it will not be Jamie Oliver who makes it so. (Also, as a Nigerian, I never miss an opportunity to state a truth: Nigerian Jollof is the best. End of story.)

... so this author would rather that a national dish of his country not be popularized, than be popularized by an "English chef". He doesn't appear to realize, or care, that every Nigerian wishing to market this dish outside of West Africa would be better off if it were popularized by a famous English chef: few Westerners are likely to be able to afford Jamie Oliver's cooking, but they are surely more likely to buy "Jollof" from a Nigerian cook if they have heard of it.

As an aside, Nigerian food is awesome. Maybe Atlanta just isn't trendy enough and it is catching on in places like New York and London already, but I think it is only a matter of time before Nigerian food becomes a big thing.
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: Eddie Teach on September 27, 2016, 06:04:01 PM
Big like pho or big like tacos?
Title: Re: Will the Left Survive the Millennials?
Post by: alfred russel on September 28, 2016, 12:21:03 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 27, 2016, 06:04:01 PM
Big like pho or big like tacos?

Like pho.