Situation is very sketchy right now. Casualty numbers are unclear, initial reports claimed one dead, now "several" dead.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874)
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/muenchen-schuesse-in-olympia-einkaufszentrum-a-1104387.html (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/muenchen-schuesse-in-olympia-einkaufszentrum-a-1104387.html)
Another incident like that recent axe attack?
Here we go again. I Hope the initial reports turn out to be close to the truth.
Hope so too, but since it is an ongoing operation, things can easily turn out worse. :-(
Motives could be anything. Radical quakers, bakers or candlestick makers. Let's not speculate.
First shots were apparently fired in a McD, the attacker or attackers then ran onto the Olympia shopping center. One unconfirmerd report says that young women were the shooter's main target.
The BBC live report quotes police as saying that there is more than one attacker. There are also reports of a second attack elsewhere in the city :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-36870986
CNN has that mall attack is now over.
Send in the Sondereinsatzkommando.
3 dead confirmed so far.
Reports of a second shooting at the Stachus proved false, thankfully.
Quote from: garbon on July 22, 2016, 12:36:18 PM
CNN has that mall attack is now over.
Attackers are still on the run.
Nasty, there are still employees hiding out in store rooms.
:ultra:
Reading about it here I turned on the news and they were showing a video clip of one guy unloading a pistol into a group of people. :(
Definitely Musselmen.
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 22, 2016, 12:31:41 PM
Motives could be anything. Radical quakers, bakers or candlestick makers. Let's not speculate.
Well, such shootings happen every week in the US, and so far, only 2 were muslim related. Not a bad average.
Sure shoot the people that 70 years ago were master at state sponsored genocide. That's a good idea.
The attacker was apparently shouting that he is German. And it's exactly 5 years since the Breivik attack.
Something about a second shooter at Marienplatz?
Shopping centre.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn_G813WcAECCAz.jpg)
That image is fake.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/karstenschmehl/diese-fotos-aus-muenchen-sind-fake?utm_term=.bwX4NpgKy#.flaDxyWVb
Ok so German nationalist runs around gunning down other Germans? What is up with terrorists and killing the people they claim to support?
Press conference: "Three attackers we know of"; "short hand gun or pistol" used in shooting
I have heard nothing about any nationalst involvement so far. No idea were that theory came from.
Number of confirmed dead now at 6. :(
Quote from: Legbiter on July 22, 2016, 02:23:59 PM
Something about a second shooter at Marienplatz?
Has been refuted, was a false alarm.
I find the German nationalist hypothesis challenging. They would likely have targetted immigrants, as opposed to random people on the street.
Quote from: Valmy on July 22, 2016, 02:35:05 PM
Ok so German nationalist runs around gunning down other Germans? What is up with terrorists and killing the people they claim to support?
And what's the beef with Austria anyway? They're such a nice people, what with their adorable accents and all
G'DAY MATE PUT ANOTHER SHRIMP ON THE BARBIE
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 22, 2016, 02:40:46 PM
I find the German nationalist hypothesis challenging. They would likely have targetted immigrants, as opposed to random people on the street.
If the gunmen are some Breivik wannabes we will know so shortly.
Quote from: Legbiter on July 22, 2016, 02:44:29 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 22, 2016, 02:40:46 PM
I find the German nationalist hypothesis challenging. They would likely have targetted immigrants, as opposed to random people on the street.
If the gunmen are some Breivik wannabes we will know so shortly.
Agreed.
Shelf's confusing link said it was a white supremist heist gone bad.
Supremicist? Spell check doesn't like either.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 22, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
Shelf's confusing link said it was a white supremist heist gone bad.
Supremicist? Spell check doesn't like either.
Supremacist.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 22, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
Shelf's confusing link said it was a white supremist heist gone bad.
Supremicist? Spell check doesn't like either.
That link is German Buzzfeed cataloguing the inaccurate memes spinning round Twitter in the hope people will stop sharing them.
I've no idea who's done it, or know anything about it beyond that it looks awful :(
A heist eh? They were holding up a McDonalds?
Seems to be lots of rumors being tossed around in the short term.
God, apparently a 15 year old girl died after being in intensive care in hospital :(
Quote from: Valmy on July 22, 2016, 02:51:02 PM
A heist eh? They were holding up a McDonalds?
Seems to be lots of rumors being tossed around in the short term.
Well, fast food places do get robbed occasionally, though I'm not sure why you would commit an armed robbery of a fast food restaurant; if I was going to risk the prison sentence that armed robbery carries, I'd want to hit something more lucrative.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 22, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
God, apparently a 15 year old girl died after being in intensive care in hospital :(
Ah fuck.
Quote from: dps on July 22, 2016, 03:08:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 22, 2016, 02:51:02 PM
A heist eh? They were holding up a McDonalds?
Seems to be lots of rumors being tossed around in the short term.
Well, fast food places do get robbed occasionally, though I'm not sure why you would commit an armed robbery of a fast food restaurant; if I was going to risk the prison sentence that armed robbery carries, I'd want to hit something more lucrative.
"more lucrative" places usually have more security though.
Is it true one of the gunmen shot himself in the head? Sky News was reporting this.
The Munich police come out of this looking rather badly. Poor information management.
Quote from: Barrister on July 22, 2016, 03:29:37 PM
Quote from: dps on July 22, 2016, 03:08:39 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 22, 2016, 02:51:02 PM
A heist eh? They were holding up a McDonalds?
Seems to be lots of rumors being tossed around in the short term.
Well, fast food places do get robbed occasionally, though I'm not sure why you would commit an armed robbery of a fast food restaurant; if I was going to risk the prison sentence that armed robbery carries, I'd want to hit something more lucrative.
"more lucrative" places usually have more security though.
True, and even ones that don't might be a more difficult target. Having worked in both, I can tell you that even a fairly low-volume discount department store is a much more lucrative target than a restaurant, and there's really not much more security, but OTOH, in most fast food places it would be much easier to see and control everyone in the building. Trying an armed robbery in a department store, there would be just too many people around that you might not even be able to see.
I remember reading about a particularly nasty armed robbery of a fast food restaurant several years ago. IIRC it was a Wendys in NYC. Apparently the robber or robbers came inside right at closing time, and forced everyone in the store into the freezer, then shot all of them in the back of the head, execution style. You couldn't really pull something like that off in a Walmart or Target or K-Mart.
Quote from: Legbiter on July 22, 2016, 03:36:23 PM
Is it true one of the gunmen shot himself in the head? Sky News was reporting this.
There have been a few reports to this direction, the first appearing at around 21:00 GMT.
Police has just confirmed that a male corpse has been found close to the mall. Not clear if dead attacker or another victim.
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 22, 2016, 03:38:38 PM
The Munich police come out of this looking rather badly. Poor information management.
Maybe they don't want to give to much information to the terrorists about what the police are doing?
Quote from: mongers on July 22, 2016, 04:03:39 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 22, 2016, 03:38:38 PM
The Munich police come out of this looking rather badly. Poor information management.
Maybe they don't want to give to much information to the terrorists about what the police are doing?
That's what they have said. They asked news networks to take down pictures and videos of ongoing police activity. The spectre of 1972, I guess.
Also Nice. There were very graphic videos on Twitter very shortly after the attack. Not sure it helps anyone.
Quote from: Solmyr on July 22, 2016, 01:23:13 PM
The attacker was apparently shouting that he is German. And it's exactly 5 years since the Breivik attack.
I just saw that video. One attacker walked on top of a parking garage, gun in hand. A nearby resident threw (partially racist) insults on him from his window. Another resident filmed the scene. The attacker spoke fluent German, claimed to have been born here. I can't make out all he's saying, thanks to the shouting resident, but he also says something about "Hartz IV" (a low form of social assistance for long term unemployed) and "Behandlung" (treatment).
http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/nach-toedlichen-schuessen-in-muenchen-ich-bin-deutscher-anwohner-filmte-streitgespraech-mit-einem-der-attentaeter_id_5755674.html (http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/nach-toedlichen-schuessen-in-muenchen-ich-bin-deutscher-anwohner-filmte-streitgespraech-mit-einem-der-attentaeter_id_5755674.html)
Quote from: Valmy on July 22, 2016, 02:51:02 PM
A heist eh? They were holding up a McDonalds?
Seems to be lots of rumors being tossed around in the short term.
This would be incredibly unlikely in a European context. Using weapons, because it is so rare, is a guaranteed way of getting caught. It is simply not good business. This has to be a nutjob of some sort, Islamist or neo-Nazi time will tell.
Banking on another radicalized knob.
:cry:
https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/756608224615395329 (https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/756608224615395329)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg-s-msn-com.akamaized.net%2Ftenant%2Famp%2Fentityid%2FBBuFXtY.img%3Fh%3D522%26amp%3Bw%3D874%26amp%3Bm%3D6%26amp%3Bq%3D60%26amp%3Bo%3Df%26amp%3Bl%3Df&hash=30cdfd9aec4f38e5c3e45a3c87ac8c295a521225)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg-s-msn-com.akamaized.net%2Ftenant%2Famp%2Fentityid%2FBBuFMWS.img%3Fh%3D522%26amp%3Bw%3D874%26amp%3Bm%3D6%26amp%3Bq%3D60%26amp%3Bo%3Df%26amp%3Bl%3Df&hash=72530ff59ad5acc44718d26277b03a76e4764741)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg-s-msn-com.akamaized.net%2Ftenant%2Famp%2Fentityid%2FBBuFFzN.img%3Fh%3D522%26amp%3Bw%3D874%26amp%3Bm%3D6%26amp%3Bq%3D60%26amp%3Bo%3Df%26amp%3Bl%3Df&hash=aac92c743d3b30555686b2c76a75a057c0ad8183)
Seems GSG9 were closing in on the scene when the killer topped himself.
Quote
Reuters Top News
BREAKING: Munich police say gunman was 18-year-old man with German and Iranian citizenship
5:45 PM - 22 Jul 2016
Best put it into the "nothing to do with islam" file.
Four Hong Kongers were in the mall when it took place. Nobody was hurt.
Kind of weirded out by the SWAT capri pants.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 22, 2016, 08:03:17 PM
Four Hong Kongers were in the mall when it took place. Nobody was hurt.
They were in the restroom stealing all the soap.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 22, 2016, 07:57:14 PM
Best put it into the "nothing to do with islam" file.
Nah, put it into the "definitely a Nazi" file.
Quote from: Monoriu
Four Hong Kongers were in the mall when it took place. Nobody was hurt.
Why are Hong Kongers everywhere something like this happens? :hmm:
You REALLY need to rein in that desire to visit every place on Earth. It's dangerous, you know...
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 22, 2016, 08:04:48 PM
Kind of weirded out by the SWAT capri pants.
And what's with all the jeans shorts. Didn't know everybody was gay there.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2016, 08:55:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 22, 2016, 08:04:48 PM
Kind of weirded out by the SWAT capri pants.
And what's with all the jeans shorts. Didn't know everybody was gay there.
Don't so easily dismiss the Jörtswaffe.
Quote from: Martim Silva on July 22, 2016, 08:46:25 PM
Why are Hong Kongers everywhere something like this happens? :hmm:
You REALLY need to rein in that desire to visit every place on Earth. It's dangerous, you know...
We are a really small place. Need places to visit.
Today, we are all MUNICH..ers?
Münchner
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 22, 2016, 07:57:14 PM
Best put it into the "nothing to do with islam" file.
Iranian is very, very odd assuming he's Shia. And the shooting himself is odd for other Islamist attacks.
That video exchange, translated for non-German speakers:
QuoteMan on the balcony: "You fucking asshole you."
Alleged shooter: "Because of you I was bullied for seven years ..."
Man: "You cunt you. You're a cunt."
Shooter: "... And now I have to buy a gun to shoot you."
Man: "A gun? Fuck off – your head isn't on right."
Shooter and man on balcony shouting at each other, inaudible
Man apparently to people filming: "He's got a gun, here, the guy has one."
Unknown speaker: "Shit/fucking Turks!"
Man: "Shit/fucking foreigners!"
Man to someone else: "He's got a gun. He has loaded his gun. Get the cops here."
Shooter: "I am German."
Man: "You're a cunt is what you are."
Shooter: "Stop filming."
Man: "A cunt is what you are, what the fuck are you doing?"
Shooter: "Yeah what, I was born here."
Man: "Yeah and what the fuck you think you're doing?"
Shooter: "I grew up here in the Hartz IV (unemployment benefits in Germany) area."
Man and shooter talk at same time, inaudible
Shooter: "I haven't done anything here for [inaudible].
Just shut your fucking face man"
Man: "You cunt you."
Man away from shooter: "Hey, he's on the upper floor here, [inaudible]"
Man goes into cover, shooter starts firing and man shouts something at him about "shooting here"
Shooter: "Yeah, that's where you're right. Yeah you're right with that. Yeah you're right."
I would imagine that the Hartz reforms are much loathed by many people. It is a possibility that some sense of entitlement to better treatment may have inspired him rather than Islamism. Not a particularly cheering thought when I reflect on the vast number of impoverished Muslims living in towns like Burnley and Blackburn.
I've no idea. It all seems fairly odd. Off the top of my head the last Shia act of terrorism in the Wet that I can think of was Hezbollah in Beirut.
Security services have said they had no prior knowledge of him and he's apparently received psychiatric treatment in the past. It could be that that "Because of you I was bullied for seven years ..." is an important line.
QuoteMunich Police: Attacker was local teenager, suffered from depression, likely 'deranged,' had no links with 'IS,' had books on mass rampage
The Daily Mail, has some good coverage and speculation about the events :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3704549/Munich-s-young-victims-Grieving-father-holds-poignant-photograph-teenage-son-NINE-murdered-McDonald-s-massacre.html
The victims, perhaps unsurprisingly for downtown Munich, seem to have come from all over.
Wah! Wah! I was bullied!
Only thing worse than fake teenagers: real teenagers.
Interestingly Al Qaeda and ISIS backing bits of the Internet were quite excited about this attack and then went very quiet about it as soon as it came out that he's of Iranian descent.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 23, 2016, 05:04:55 AM
I would imagine that the Hartz reforms are much loathed by many people. It is a possibility that some sense of entitlement to better treatment may have inspired him rather than Islamism. Not a particularly cheering thought when I reflect on the vast number of impoverished Muslims living in towns like Burnley and Blackburn.
There is no excuse for what this asshat did, but based on my direct experiences and stories I have heard from people there I would NOT want to grow up as a brown-skinned kid in Bavaria.
It is possible that Munich is an exception, like Vienna in Austria, but that region has always impressed me with its racism; very different to North-Rhine Westphalia or Lower Saxony.
They don't call Bavaria the Texas of Germany for nothing. :P
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 22, 2016, 07:57:14 PM
Best put it into the "nothing to do with islam" file.
With each one of these random and inscrutably motivated attacks, the mystery of what is happening in Europe deepens.
Quote from: The Brain on July 23, 2016, 05:44:09 AM
Wah! Wah! I was bullied!
Only thing worse than fake teenagers: real teenagers.
Ban teenagers.
Seven of the victims were teenagers: three from Kosovo, three from Turkey, one from Greece.
It's very odd. The attacker had Germany translations of books on school shootings as well.
And he apparently set up a fake Facebook account saying there was a promo deal at McDonald's so there'd be more people there :(
hamilcar = BTFO :D
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 23, 2016, 04:52:09 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 22, 2016, 07:57:14 PM
Best put it into the "nothing to do with islam" file.
Iranian is very, very odd assuming he's Shia. And the shooting himself is odd for other Islamist attacks.
There are quite a few Iranians who are Sunni, some concentrated in the SW Iran, Khuzestan. Hence the Iranian embassy seige, though maybe the core of that was Arab minority politics, Saddam's machinations and not necessarily Sunni driven?
Sounds like a crazy person, probably at least inspired by Breivik.
So with the Iranian and brown skin thingy, is everyone over there going to pin this on "self-radicalized Islamic-inspired terrorism" anyway, like they did with San Bernardino and Orlando here?
No, not this time. Looks like he was inspired by other amok runs like Breiviks. Motive is unclear, probably just deranged personality. Most likely no connection to Islamism.
He did strike on the 5 year anniversary of Breivik's mass killing while yelling Aloha Snackbar. :hmm:
So the compromise view would be that he was a right-wing xenophobic Islamist terrorist who lacked a political motive & was simply crazy.
Something something religion of peace?
How the hell did this guy get a gun?
Quote from: 11B4V on July 23, 2016, 03:03:23 PM
Quote from: Tyr on July 23, 2016, 03:02:12 PM
How the hell did this guy get a gun?
Really?
Yeah. How did an 18 year old with a history of depression get his hands on one? :mellow:
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 23, 2016, 03:12:33 PM
Yeah. How did an 18 year old with a history of depression get his hands on one? :mellow:
He had no license for gun handling and the Glock in question had it's serial number filed off, so he certainly did not get it via regular channels. Getting 400+ rounds of ammo can't have been easy either.
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 23, 2016, 04:11:25 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 23, 2016, 03:12:33 PM
Yeah. How did an 18 year old with a history of depression get his hands on one? :mellow:
He had no license for gun handling and the Glock in question had it's serial number filed off, so he certainly did not get it via regular channels. Getting 400+ rounds of ammo can't have been easy either.
A expert said to CNN (they're probably rerunning that piece during the day) that the gun and ammo was probably through the same gun trafficking routes that supply ISIS and other islamic extremists in Europe.
Tanking into consideration that the vast majority of Germans have absolutely no idea on how to contact networks of gun traffickers to obtain modern guns and hundreds of rounds of ammo, let alone a loner 18-year-old, the Occam's Razor reply to this question is simple: someone supplied him with them.
Quote from: Zanza
Sounds like a crazy person, probably at least inspired by Breivik.
Still clinging to the attempts to find a way to pin this on the "Right"?
You're just like the AP, who is still reporting that he had a "hatred of foreigners" (nevermind that he was the son of an Iranian couple, that's bad for the tale)?
Tell me Zanza, do you pee sitting down?
If Germany is anything like Sweden getting a gun and ammo isn't rocket science. Some years back in a murder that got a lot of attention in Sweden (for other reasons) the 18 y/o chick murderer went from Rural Smalltown, Sweden to Stockholm and asked the criminals that hang out by the main subway station about buying a gun and ammo and managed to do so. IIRC. And if you're a teenage guy who lives in the ghetto you likely know someone who knows someone.
Quote from: Martim Silva on July 23, 2016, 04:30:51 PM
Tanking into consideration that the vast majority of Germans have absolutely no idea on how to contact networks of gun traffickers to obtain modern guns and hundreds of rounds of ammo, let alone a loner 18-year-old, the Occam's Razor reply to this question is simple: someone supplied him with them.
What a brilliant deduction. I thought perhaps he made it from twigs and berries or that it fell out of the sky.
Don't be a twat. He means some group put a gun in his hands and said "go kill some people."
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 23, 2016, 06:25:23 PM
Don't be a twat. He means some group put a gun in his hands and said "go kill some people."
Maybe it was Erdogan, chief calamity of our time.
Quote from: The Brain on July 23, 2016, 04:48:29 PM
If Germany is anything like Sweden getting a gun and ammo isn't rocket science. Some years back in a murder that got a lot of attention in Sweden (for other reasons) the 18 y/o chick murderer went from Rural Smalltown, Sweden to Stockholm and asked the criminals that hang out by the main subway station about buying a gun and ammo and managed to do so. IIRC. And if you're a teenage guy who lives in the ghetto you likely know someone who knows someone.
Yeah.
Just seems odd given that he was young and the only thing the police knew about him was that he'd been the victim of a couple of assaults. From what I've read he doesn't seem the type to have had some form criminal contacts which I would have thought you'd need. But as you say maybe it's pretty easy to get hold of if you want it.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 23, 2016, 06:36:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 23, 2016, 06:25:23 PM
Don't be a twat. He means some group put a gun in his hands and said "go kill some people."
Maybe it was Erdogan, chief calamity of our time.
How twattish of you. No nap today?
Quote from: Razgovory on July 23, 2016, 06:36:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 23, 2016, 06:25:23 PM
Don't be a twat. He means some group put a gun in his hands and said "go kill some people."
Maybe it was Erdogan, chief calamity of our time.
Erdogan is going after close personal friends of mine whose only crime appears to still being alive.
Edit: Ok calmed down a bit. Just damn Raz why do you have to keep rubbing this in? What did I ever do to you?
I liked the original post better. :P
Quote from: garbon on July 23, 2016, 07:31:41 PM
I liked the original post better. :P
He triggered me :P
Quote from: The Brain on July 23, 2016, 04:48:29 PM
If Germany is anything like Sweden getting a gun and ammo isn't rocket science. Some years back in a murder that got a lot of attention in Sweden (for other reasons) the 18 y/o chick murderer went from Rural Smalltown, Sweden to Stockholm and asked the criminals that hang out by the main subway station about buying a gun and ammo and managed to do so. IIRC. And if you're a teenage guy who lives in the ghetto you likely know someone who knows someone.
That is how I used to get beer in high school. Well, I didn't travel to stockholm.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 23, 2016, 06:36:56 PM
Maybe it was Erdogan, chief calamity of our time.
Give him time, he's steadily moving up the list.
As for the guy, yes of course he was supplied by IS, we all know the close relationships between IS and Iran. No doubt he is an IRGC sleeper agent carrying out this act to avenge longstanding Shi'a grievances against Ludwig the Mad.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 23, 2016, 10:19:13 PM
As for the guy, yes of course he was supplied by IS, we all know the close relationships between IS and Iran. No doubt he is an IRGC sleeper agent carrying out this act to avenge longstanding Shi'a grievances against Ludwig the Mad.
Iran and ISIS? Not great relations.
ISIS and individual Iranians? Happened before.
Remember Man Haron Monis, the Iranian that attacked Lindt Cafe in Sydney?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/30/sydney-siege-gunman-man-haron-monis-praised-in-isis-publication (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/30/sydney-siege-gunman-man-haron-monis-praised-in-isis-publication)
But by all means, don't let facts mess with your opinions.
We don't all have contacts in the Iranian embassy.
Quote from: sbr on July 23, 2016, 11:47:07 PM
We don't all have contacts in the Iranian embassy.
That's exactly what the Iranian Ambassador told me at lunch today.
Quote from: Martim Silva on July 23, 2016, 04:30:51 PM
Still clinging to the attempts to find a way to pin this on the "Right"?
Not sure how you got from "crazy" to "right".
In Europe, the challenge is getting a gun legally, not getting a gun at all.
Quote from: Valmy on July 23, 2016, 07:24:02 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 23, 2016, 06:36:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 23, 2016, 06:25:23 PM
Don't be a twat. He means some group put a gun in his hands and said "go kill some people."
Maybe it was Erdogan, chief calamity of our time.
Erdogan is going after close personal friends of mine whose only crime appears to still being alive.
Edit: Ok calmed down a bit. Just damn Raz why do you have to keep rubbing this in? What did I ever do to you?
This was by no means aimed at you.
Süddeutsche Zeitung claims that the gun was a reactivated theater weapon from Slovakia and was bought via the "Darknet".
According to the police, reactivated weapons are the most common illegal firearms used in armed crimes in Germany, as new handguns are a lot rarer and highly expensive on the black market (several thousand Euro for the simplest pistol).
Yeah, reactivated guns are usually the easiest way to get an illegal gun in Spain, too.
So.... I guess laws on deactivating weapons need tightening?
I wonder how the deactivation works. Must leave enough gun intact if it can be reactivated like so.
The perpetrator went to Winnenden last year to have a look at the school where Germany's worst school shooting happened in 2009 and the police thinks that he prepared for his own amok run since about that time. Together with books on other amok runs and this happening on the fifth anniversary of Breivik's amok run the police is certain that he was inspired by other amok runs, not by the recent islamist terror. He was in psychatric treatment (two month stationary last year) and had "social phobias".
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 24, 2016, 06:16:54 AM
Süddeutsche Zeitung claims that the gun was a reactivated theater weapon from Slovakia and was bought via the "Darknet".
According to the police, reactivated weapons are the most common illegal firearms used in armed crimes in Germany, as new handguns are a lot rarer and highly expensive on the black market (several thousand Euro for the simplest pistol).
What does reactivated weapon mean?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 24, 2016, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: Malicious Intent on July 24, 2016, 06:16:54 AM
Süddeutsche Zeitung claims that the gun was a reactivated theater weapon from Slovakia and was bought via the "Darknet".
According to the police, reactivated weapons are the most common illegal firearms used in armed crimes in Germany, as new handguns are a lot rarer and highly expensive on the black market (several thousand Euro for the simplest pistol).
What does reactivated weapon mean?
a weapon that was previously deactivated, then activated again.
;)
I guess it's a weapon for collectors, where the firing mechanism must be removed from the gun. Then you buy said parts somewhere else and with a little thinkering you got yourself a working firearm.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1537748/Deactivated-guns-made-lethal-in-four-minutes.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1537748/Deactivated-guns-made-lethal-in-four-minutes.html)
There are sites selling antique weapons, like muskets, where the firing mechanism is removed. I think I could legally posess such a weapon in Canada, but I'm not too sure about the importing part.
Deactivating in the US means the receiver and sometimes bolt have been torch cut. Unless you can fabricate a receiver you can't 'reactivate" it.
Do we need a terrorism in Germany mega thread or shall we just continue to post in this one?
Because an Afghan attacked and killed a woman in Germany today, though that maybe be behavioural/'domestic' in nature.
And a bomb has just gone off in a bar in Ansbach nr Nuremberg injuring and killing people. :(
Heard on NPR about a 21 year old Syrian refugee involved in an attack in Germany. Not sure which attack that was referring to.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 24, 2016, 07:27:51 PM
Heard on NPR about a 21 year old Syrian refugee involved in an attack in Germany. Not sure which attack that was referring to.
Oops my bad, that was the machete attack that killed the woman and injured others, not clear if it was terrorism yet; I in error referred to him as Afghan.
Quote from: derspiess on July 24, 2016, 05:06:10 PM
Deactivating in the US means the receiver and sometimes bolt have been torch cut. Unless you can fabricate a receiver you can't 'reactivate" it.
Maybe they used a clip instead of a magazine.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 24, 2016, 07:43:23 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 24, 2016, 05:06:10 PM
Deactivating in the US means the receiver and sometimes bolt have been torch cut. Unless you can fabricate a receiver you can't 'reactivate" it.
Maybe they used a clip instead of a magazine.
:mad:
Ansbach, Germany, rocked by explosion
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/24/world/ansbach-germany-blast/index.html
Quote from: 11B4V on July 24, 2016, 07:48:53 PM
Ansbach, Germany, rocked by explosion
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/24/world/ansbach-germany-blast/index.html
Mentioned 45 minutes ago, from reports it could have been a suicide attack and the sole death appears to be bomber, though others injured.
Quote from: mongers on July 24, 2016, 07:34:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 24, 2016, 07:27:51 PM
Heard on NPR about a 21 year old Syrian refugee involved in an attack in Germany. Not sure which attack that was referring to.
Oops my bad, that was the machete attack that killed the woman and injured others, not clear if it was terrorism yet; I in error referred to him as Afghan.
apparently he killed his pregnant polish girlfriend and a bystander then was run over by some random guy in his bmw
Quote from: HVC on July 24, 2016, 09:34:19 PM
then was run over by some random guy in his bmw
Random? No so fast my friend....
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-C_5Z6W8V6Hg/VxwOZUwXQKI/AAAAAAABxjo/n66ieIUUClg3YW6njgsMtIpNmkYtFnLtgCLcB/s1600/Driving_Hitler_worldwartwo.filminspector.com_3.jpg)
Yeah, you'd think if there was one country minorities wouldn't want to miss with it would be Germany ;)
Quote
Suicide bomber is a 27-year-old Syrian who had been treated at a psychiatric hospital for trying to commit suicide twice
The man's asylum request had been denied a year ago, but he had a temporary permit to stay
Police say they cannot yet confirm that the man intended to kill others with him
We can be relieved to know this wasn't islamic terrorism, but just the individual suicide of a troubled man who happened to be syrian which also happened to wound others by happenstance.
The attack in Ansbach is actual terrorism. Suicide bomber trying to enter a big congregation of people at a concert. We can be lucky that he was denied entry. Terrorist is a 27 year old Syrian who entered Germany as a refugee, was denied asylum but not deported. It's not yet clear where he got the bomb from.
The attack in Reutlingen was personal. The perpetrator there knew the victim and the person that ran him over with a car was also not a random person but another aquaintance. The victim was Polish, the driver Turkish and the perpetrator Syrian. They all worked at the same kebab place. The perpetrator could still have been motivated by his Muslim view of women though.
T'would be interesting to know the grounds on which he was denied asylum.
All the recent attacks have been committed by what one could politely call "troubled" individuals. Those individuals have also all had Middle Eastern ancestry.
I'm wondering about the importance of cultural fashion in these attacks.
To stereotype a little; if one lives in NYC and has problems it is off to the psychologist, a troubled Englishman will drink a lot.........and so on. The existence of ISIS and Islamist terrorism in general permits a different mode of expression for troubled muslims. I think one can see the attraction, "I'm not the problem, the problem is the diseased West".
The recent attacks have a very different feel to previous operations involving traditional terrorist cells. In a way they are far more dangerous, if it becomes somehow legitimate for a troubled muslim to take out his angst on society at large then we can expect a big increase in attacks.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 25, 2016, 02:57:15 AM
All the recent attacks have been committed by what one could politely call "troubled" individuals. Those individuals have also all had Middle Eastern ancestry.
I'm wondering about the importance of cultural fashion in these attacks.
To stereotype a little; if one lives in NYC and has problems it is off to the psychologist, a troubled Englishman will drink a lot.........and so on. The existence of ISIS and Islamist terrorism in general permits a different mode of expression for troubled muslims. I think one can see the attraction, "I'm not the problem, the problem is the diseased West".
The recent attacks have a very different feel to previous operations involving traditional terrorist cells. In a way they are far more dangerous, if it becomes somehow legitimate for a troubled muslim to take out his angst on society at large then we can expect a big increase in attacks.
:yes:
I was wondering the other day why attacks seem to be focusing in France and Germany. Yes, I'm aware they have very large muslim communities and in some cases with deep integration issues. But for example NE Spain is a hotbed of Salafism, and even though we have dismantled several cells throughout the years, we haven't had an attack in a decade (touch wood). And as seen in Nice, it's sadly really easy to perpetrate an attack if you don't care about getting away.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 24, 2016, 11:14:23 PM
T'would be interesting to know the grounds on which he was denied asylum.
It's very rare for Syrians to be denied, so I guess there were serious doubts about his real nationality. Young men from northern Africa often claim to be Syrian, to have a better chance of getting Asylum.
Quote from: celedhring on July 25, 2016, 03:38:51 AM
I was wondering the other day why attacks seem to be focusing in France and Germany. Yes, I'm aware they have very large muslim communities and in some cases with deep integration issues. But for example NE Spain is a hotbed of Salafism, and even though we have dismantled several cells throughout the years, we haven't had an attack in a decade (touch wood). And as seen in Nice, it's sadly really easy to perpetrate an attack if you don't care about getting away.
Germany didn't really have any successful Islamist terror attacks in the last decade. There were a few cells that the police found and some attempts that failed, but nothing similar to the attacks in France or Belgium or what happened in Madrid and London a decade ago.
So I'm going to Frankfurt next week for work and I am planning to spend weekend in Cologne. I'm thinking of not telling my family members that so that they don't fear for my safety in Germany (like they did when several checked in to see if I was in Munich). -_-
Quote from: Zanza on July 24, 2016, 11:11:53 PM
The attack in Reutlingen was personal. The perpetrator there knew the victim and the person that ran him over with a car was also not a random person but another aquaintance. The victim was Polish, the driver Turkish and the perpetrator Syrian. They all worked at the same kebab place. The perpetrator could still have been motivated by his Muslim view of women though.
Nothing good comes from those kebab places.
They make kebab which is pretty good. Also Börek, Dürüm, Lahmacun, and Pide.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 25, 2016, 02:57:15 AM
All the recent attacks have been committed by what one could politely call "troubled" individuals. Those individuals have also all had Middle Eastern ancestry.
I'm wondering about the importance of cultural fashion in these attacks.
To stereotype a little; if one lives in NYC and has problems it is off to the psychologist, a troubled Englishman will drink a lot.........and so on. The existence of ISIS and Islamist terrorism in general permits a different mode of expression for troubled muslims. I think one can see the attraction, "I'm not the problem, the problem is the diseased West".
The recent attacks have a very different feel to previous operations involving traditional terrorist cells. In a way they are far more dangerous, if it becomes somehow legitimate for a troubled muslim to take out his angst on society at large then we can expect a big increase in attacks.
With these kind of crazy guy killers I would tend towards the theory that 24 hour news is heavily to blame. They figure if they're going to go out they might as well go with a bang, show the world that they are capable of something and all that.
Quote from: Tyr on July 25, 2016, 10:34:00 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 25, 2016, 02:57:15 AM
All the recent attacks have been committed by what one could politely call "troubled" individuals. Those individuals have also all had Middle Eastern ancestry.
I'm wondering about the importance of cultural fashion in these attacks.
To stereotype a little; if one lives in NYC and has problems it is off to the psychologist, a troubled Englishman will drink a lot.........and so on. The existence of ISIS and Islamist terrorism in general permits a different mode of expression for troubled muslims. I think one can see the attraction, "I'm not the problem, the problem is the diseased West".
The recent attacks have a very different feel to previous operations involving traditional terrorist cells. In a way they are far more dangerous, if it becomes somehow legitimate for a troubled muslim to take out his angst on society at large then we can expect a big increase in attacks.
With these kind of crazy guy killers I would tend towards the theory that 24 hour news is heavily to blame. They figure if they're going to go out they might as well go with a bang, show the world that they are capable of something and all that.
On the other hand, with a 24 hour news cycle, it is pretty quick that we forget details about most of these killers.
Yeah that is true. They just keep rolling by with mind numbing regularity. We usually only care enough to categorize the perps as what sort of crazy asshole they are. The days of carefully studying and obsessing about each freak-show seems to be at an end as this becomes the new normal.
Quote from: Zanza on July 25, 2016, 10:25:00 AM
They make kebab which is pretty good. Also Börek, Dürüm, Lahmacun, and Pide.
When you are hammered at 2 in the morning, agreed. Otherwise...
The police found a video from the suicide bomber in Ansbach where he talks about the Islamic State Caliph al-Bagdadi and how he wants to take revenge against Germans because they kill Muslims. They are now looking for potential contacts who could have provided material for the bomb.
Quote from: Zanza on July 25, 2016, 12:46:14 PM
The police found a video from the suicide bomber in Ansbach where he talks about the Islamic State Caliph al-Bagdadi and how he wants to take revenge against Germans because they kill Muslims. They are now looking for potential contacts who could have provided material for the bomb.
Strange that one would ally with one of the biggest Muslim killers of them all to take revenge against Muslim killers.
I don't think Logic 101 is required reading before becoming a suicide bomber.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 25, 2016, 02:57:15 AM
All the recent attacks have been committed by what one could politely call "troubled" individuals. Those individuals have also all had Middle Eastern ancestry.
I'm wondering about the importance of cultural fashion in these attacks.
To stereotype a little; if one lives in NYC and has problems it is off to the psychologist, a troubled Englishman will drink a lot.........and so on. The existence of ISIS and Islamist terrorism in general permits a different mode of expression for troubled muslims. I think one can see the attraction, "I'm not the problem, the problem is the diseased West".
The recent attacks have a very different feel to previous operations involving traditional terrorist cells. In a way they are far more dangerous, if it becomes somehow legitimate for a troubled muslim to take out his angst on society at large then we can expect a big increase in attacks.
In fairness there's a great deal of mass killings around that don't fit that profile: Dallas, Baton Rouge, the Fort Myers attack, Japan - and that's just in the last month. There seem to be a lot of attacks at the minute.
But on your point many of these attacks (and attacks since the rise of ISIS) don't feel like normal terrorist attacks. They remind me of school shootings which is a sense I've had since the Sidney attack on a chocolate shop. It just felt very different from suicide bombers on public transport or even the guy trying to blow up a nightclub in London. I can't identify why so many of them feel different to me but they do (maybe the lack of any network or group? the lack of explanation/justification? the lack of radicalisation/ideology?).
One thought I had when details started to emerge about Munich was that we know that media coverage of school shootings influences how many school shootings or attempts you're likely to get in the aftermath. There is always an uptick but there is evidence that how it is covered by the media influences how much that happens. So the advice is don't start coverage with sirens blaring and police rushing to the scene; don't make the perpetrator an anti-hero; don't make it look anything like an action film - instead you should localise it as much as possible. In total about 20-30% of school shootings happen in the two weeks following one.
And it made me wonder after we started to hear about the background of the Munich attacker if that's kind of happening more widely now that we're going through this density of attacks - I sort of hoped that he was obsessed with Breivik because that makes it likely he would attack on that day regardless. We know that school shootings have that almost contagious effect and sitting through this past month I wondered if there's something similar here which scares me. Or it may just be a function of this weird spate of killings we're having.
I also think you're giving too much credit to the Muslim who's inspired by ISIS I think it is far simpler than blaming the West: it's a licence for violence. There's a reason their videos glorify ultra-violence - they attract and appeal to people who want to do that stuff. They don't actually, as al-Qaeda used to, focus on lengthy theological justifications for what they do; they focus on the gore and the suffering they're causing. And this group, in the name of Islam and the Caliph, gives these people permission to live out their sickest fantasies whether it's murder and enslavement if they travel to Syria or murder at home. It's horrible to think but I do think a significant part of ISIS's success is because they are the nastiest which they focus on and there is a market who are getting off on, and wanting to join in with, that violence.
But you may be right. I don't know that traditional counter-radicalisation measures work with these people who commit awful crimes and then shout 'Allahu akbar' and suddenly they're committed Islamist terrorists. The old al-Qaeda terrorists all normally had friends and family saying they were normal guys who at some point became more interested in religion or politics and then withdrew as they became more engaged in extremist networks. That's a radicalisation that can be studied academically and intercepted by good intelligence, it can be observed and it can be countered.
How do you stop or even notice the gay bar frequenting, pork eating, drinking, drug-taking, apparently Christian or atheist guy who decides, after a failure of a life, to distinguish himself by phoning the ISIS allegiance network and killing people? That's the other clever thing that ISIS offer is instant recognition and glory in some global villainous network without doing the hard lines of actually going to a fucking training camp in Pakistan.
Edit: On that last point the image always returns to me of the Orlando killer stopping his massacre to take out his phone and see if Orlando or Pulse were trending on Facebook yet. I've not been able to get that out of my head since I read it back in early June - and how much further back does it feel Orlando was?
"Recent attacks" is very much a hostage to fortune these days, there have been several more since I posted, some of them lacking any Islamic involvement at all.
I'm re-reading the science fiction classic Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner at the moment. Written in the 1960s it is his view of a possible future (our present of course). It is fairly dystopian with over-population, environmental degradation, housing shortages, information overload etc etc. In the book there are frequent lethal attacks by "muckers" (as in "amok"), there are no real political reasons for these attacks, it is just the more dysfunctional members of a dysfunctional society crossing a line. Perhaps that is where we are and the apparent importance of Islam is simply that muslims have been leading the way as their countries are invariably the most badly-run on the planet.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 27, 2016, 03:01:17 AM
In the book there are frequent lethal attacks by "muckers" (as in "amok"), there are no real political reasons for these attacks, it is just the more dysfunctional members of a dysfunctional society crossing a line. Perhaps that is where we are and the apparent importance of Islam is simply that muslims have been leading the way as their countries are invariably the most badly-run on the planet.
Just being from a dysfunctional society can't be the whole explanation, though. If that were the case, though, we'd expect to see a lot of Haitian terrorists.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/27/explosion-migration-office-zirndorf-nuremberg-germany-reports
QuoteExplosion near migration reception centre in Germany, say reports
An explosion has occurred around 200 metres (220 yards) from a reception centre for migrants in the town of Zirndorf near Nuremberg, German broadcaster Bayerischer Rundfunk reported, but initial reports said noone had been injured.
The broadcaster said on its website that a suitcase filled with aerosols had been detonated, adding that it was unknown who had caused the explosion.
It had earlier reported that the explosion took place near a migration office.
Bayerischer Rundfunk cited police as saying witnesses had reported hearing a loud bang before finding a burning suitcase in an allotment garden.
Police could not immediately be reached for comment.
Television images showed police standing near a partially destroyed suitcase lying in a small alley.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 26, 2016, 04:20:41 PM
In fairness there's a great deal of mass killings around that don't fit that profile: Dallas, Baton Rouge, the Fort Myers attack, Japan - and that's just in the last month. There seem to be a lot of attacks at the minute.
Yeah but mass murder is what the United States has done for decades. I am not sure you can include us in calculations of European trends.
Some of this is probably just the nationalization and internationalization of news.
When I was a kid growing up in Fort Myers, we got the Miami newspaper in addition to the local one--and I remember that they had a counter for a while of Miami metro homicides. I'm probably horribly misremembering but I think it was up around 700 by year end.
No one back then really cared on a national level. So the other day there is a mass shooting at a nightclub in Fort Myers in a rougher part of town--yes it was different because minors were involved--but still, a couple people killed after midnight in a shooting would not have been a significant international story pre internet.
gang/criminal violence =! mass shootings. people talked about the clock tower shooter
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 27, 2016, 03:01:17 AM
"Recent attacks" is very much a hostage to fortune these days, there have been several more since I posted, some of them lacking any Islamic involvement at all.
I'm re-reading the science fiction classic Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner at the moment. Written in the 1960s it is his view of a possible future (our present of course). It is fairly dystopian with over-population, environmental degradation, housing shortages, information overload etc etc. In the book there are frequent lethal attacks by "muckers" (as in "amok"), there are no real political reasons for these attacks, it is just the more dysfunctional members of a dysfunctional society crossing a line. Perhaps that is where we are and the apparent importance of Islam is simply that muslims have been leading the way as their countries are invariably the most badly-run on the planet.
I think there's something to it in Europe. There's something very different happening in Middle East obviously.
But it is striking that we're still not at 1970s level of political violence in Europe and there are similarities between now and then. Elites who seem unable to the world they face, an economic model that's no longer working as it should and where the problems seem insoluble etc. I don't think we're a million miles from then when bored, alienated bourgeois kids became violent Maoists and threw grenades into cafes. But now the cool face of hyper-violence is ISIS. Obviously there's still violent Islamist terrorism but a lot of these attacks remind me more of the absurd violence of school shootings or 70s terrorism.
QuoteYeah but mass murder is what the United States has done for decades. I am not sure you can include us in calculations of European trends.
I'm not being specific to Europe. I think at the minute it just seems almost daily that there's something like this. I can't think of a time like it that I can remember. Again I quite like Martin Rowson's latest:
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/2d9a143cc0f210a2f0e31af865be68675c36c75e/0_0_4848_3318/master/4848.jpg?w=940&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=2e3855b0d3ba3e24219a58e7c3048dc2)
Will there ever come a point when for most progressive liberals, they'll eventually attribute the violence to a fundamental part of what is Islam?
Quote from: mongers on July 27, 2016, 01:48:04 PM
Will there ever come a point when for most progressive liberals, they'll eventually attribute the violence to fundamental part of what is Islam?
It depends which violence. The Middle East is a sectarian war so obviously. There is also a war within Sunni Islam which I think stems from a crisis of authority: to my mind you cannot simultaneously have a purely textual way of interpreting your faith for centuries that's been heightened with the Saudis and totally reject ISIS. And, obviously, there are violent Islamist terrorist in Europe (mostly, I think an effect of that Sunni crisis with the odd local feature: has France ever stopped fighting her wars in the Maghreb or is she now fighting them at home?).
But what I'm talking about are these ones that RH said have a different feel than 'traditional' terrorism - even Islamist terrorism of a decade ago - because I've had the exact same sense since the Sidney attack. I don't know what it is but it just doesn't seem to fit with other terrorist attacks. It seems more absurd and pointless, maybe more individual in a way. And, as I say, the individuals are incredible difficult to notice - the common strands I can see are Roy's petty deliquency and violence against women - but if you're targeting Islamist terrorists the last guy you look at is probably the one who routinely goes to a gay bar.
What do you do when the approaches against radicalisation that break up al-Qaeda cells won't work because these attackers aren't in that sort of milieu and don't show those sort of signs? Genuine question, I've no idea. The best I can think of is that we probably need to destroy ISIS (which involves destroying Assad) but beyond that I've nothing.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 27, 2016, 02:01:12 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 27, 2016, 01:48:04 PM
Will there ever come a point when for most progressive liberals, they'll eventually attribute the violence to fundamental part of what is Islam?
It depends which violence. The Middle East is a sectarian war so obviously. There is also a war within Sunni Islam which I think stems from a crisis of authority: to my mind you cannot simultaneously have a purely textual way of interpreting your faith for centuries that's been heightened with the Saudis and totally reject ISIS. And, obviously, there are violent Islamist terrorist in Europe (mostly, I think an effect of that Sunni crisis with the odd local feature: has France ever stopped fighting her wars in the Maghreb or is she now fighting them at home?).
But what I'm talking about are these ones that RH said have a different feel than 'traditional' terrorism - even Islamist terrorism of a decade ago - because I've had the exact same sense since the Sidney attack. I don't know what it is but it just doesn't seem to fit with other terrorist attacks. It seems more absurd and pointless, maybe more individual in a way. And, as I say, the individuals are incredible difficult to notice - the common strands I can see are Roy's petty deliquency and violence against women - but if you're targeting Islamist terrorists the last guy you look at is probably the one who routinely goes to a gay bar.
What do you do when the approaches against radicalisation that break up al-Qaeda cells won't work because these attackers aren't in that sort of milieu and don't show those sort of signs? Genuine question, I've no idea. The best I can think of is that we probably need to destroy ISIS (which involves destroying Assad) but beyond that I've nothing.
Thanks for the long and considered article, I'll reply when I've some good time and improved powers of reasoning. :D
Quote from: mongers on July 27, 2016, 01:48:04 PM
Will there ever come a point when for most progressive liberals, they'll eventually attribute the violence to a fundamental part of what is Islam?
I guess as soon as they forget that the 'insane acts of random violence' thing is a relatively recent phenomenon while Islam is over fifteen hundred years old. :hmm:
Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2016, 04:17:38 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 27, 2016, 01:48:04 PM
Will there ever come a point when for most progressive liberals, they'll eventually attribute the violence to a fundamental part of what is Islam?
I guess as soon as they forget that the 'insane acts of random violence' thing is a relatively recent phenomenon while Islam is over fifteen hundred years old. :hmm:
Are those insane, how random are they?
QuoteHow Germans handle terror
Pure reason
In the face of a rash of attacks, Germans are staying remarkably calm
Jul 30th 2016 | BERLIN | From the print edition
ASK some Germans how people should react to terrorism and most would probably agree with the historian Herfried Münkler that the best attitude is heroische Gelassenheit: heroic calmness. Let other countries declare wars on terrorism and near-permanent states of emergency, they say; Germany's dark history has taught it not to over-react. Sceptics used to reply that talk was cheap coming from Germany, which had been spared major incidents of the sort that have struck America, France, Turkey and other countries. That changed in the space of one week this month, when Germany suffered four very different attacks.
First, on July 18th, an Afghan refugee stabbed and axed four passengers on a train and another on a platform. Four days later a German teenager of Iranian descent went on a rampage in a shopping centre in Munich (pictured), injuring more than 30 people and killing nine before shooting himself. Two days after that, a Syrian refugee hacked a pregnant woman to death with a machete—"relationship troubles", the police said. Elsewhere that night another Syrian refugee tried to enter a concert with a backpack of explosives. When he was barred, he blew himself up, injuring 15 others.
Germans grew more jittery with each round of breaking news. There was a brief panic during the initial hours of the Munich rampage, as rumours spread on social media that three killers were on the loose rather than just one. Munich's 2,300 police were inundated with 4,300 emergency calls, almost all of them false.
But Munich quickly recovered its poise. Under the hashtag #OffeneTuer ("#OpenDoor"), residents offered to accommodate anyone stranded for the night by the lock-down. Munich's police spokesperson, Marcus da Gloria Martins, laboured tirelessly to sort fact from fiction. Mr da Gloria Martins, who wrote a thesis on crisis communication, ultimately became the country's hero of the week. On a television talk show, he appealed to the audience and media: "Give us the chance to report facts. Don't speculate, don't copy from each other." It was the biggest applause line of the night.
Most politicians heeded his advice, distinguishing carefully between the issues at play in different killings. The week's worst disaster, in Munich, had nothing to do with Islamism. The 18-year-old gunman, David Ali Sonboly, had been bullied and suffered from depression, and had prepared his rampage for a year. He had read "Why Kids Kill" by Peter Langman, an American expert on school shootings. In 2015 he visited Winnenden, a town in Germany where a school mass shooting took place in 2009. He executed his attack on the fifth anniversary of the massacre by Anders Breivik on the Norwegian island of Utoya.
Mr Sonboly's case opened many debates. He had played "Counter-Strike", a violent computer game also favoured by other shooters. Should such games be banned? The consensus seemed to be no; that would curtail liberty and be unfair on the majority of players who never become violent. Should Germany deploy its army in domestic emergencies such as this? Some, including Bavaria's interior minister, Joachim Herrmann, said yes. Others pointed to Germany's Nazi-era history and remained wary.
Mr Sonboly had used a contraband Glock 17, the type of gun also preferred by the killers at Utoya and Winnenden. Should Germany's gun laws be tightened? No, the consensus suggested; Germany already has some of the strictest laws in the world. Mr Sonboly had bought his gun illegally from Slovakia through the "dark net", an encrypted portion of the internet. The weapon had been disabled for use as a stage prop; Mr Sonboly or someone else later restored it to shoot live rounds.
Public discussion of the other three attackers was equally mature. All were refugees from war-torn countries and probably traumatised. Two of them—the axeman on the train and the backpack bomber at the concert—acted in the name of Islamic State (IS). The former, an unaccompanied minor from Afghanistan, was only 17 years old. The latter, a Syrian nicknamed Rambo at his refugee centre, had been denied asylum and was to be deported to Bulgaria. He had already been in psychiatric treatment and twice tried to commit suicide.
Some worried that IS might have smuggled in terrorists amid the refugees who have arrived in Germany in recent years—about 1m last year alone. Germany is investigating 59 such cases, said Thomas de Maizière, the interior minister. (There are 708 other investigations into possible Islamist terrorist plots, involving more than 1,000 suspects.) But he cautioned that the vast majority of refugees are peaceful victims, rather than perpetrators, of terror. Most Germans agreed that refugees, especially the young and traumatised, should receive better counselling and supervision.
Only a few tried to make hay of the tragedies. During the Munich rampage, André Poggenburg, a leader of the anti-immigrant Alternative for Germany party, tried to blame the open-door refugee policy of chancellor Angela Merkel—even before anyone knew who was shooting. "Our sympathy for the wounded and the bereaved, our disgust for the Merkelites and leftwing idiots who bear responsibility!" he tweeted. He earned immediate condemnation on social and broadcast media, followed by ridicule once it emerged that the shooter was German. Then the country went on being heroically calm.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21702718-face-rash-attacks-germans-are-staying-remarkably-calm-pure-reason
So the Munich shooter was a right-wing racist. And people in the mall were protected against him by an Afghan refugee security guard (http://www.dw.com/en/munich-guard-proud-of-good-deed-done-in-the-name-of-all-afghans/a-19431453).
But of course this is not terrorism, because only Muslims can be terrorists.
Is anyone claiming this wasn't terrorism?
Quote from: derspiess on July 28, 2016, 12:38:52 PM
Is anyone claiming this wasn't terrorism?
I may be wrong, but from what I've read I don't think it's terrorism.
Quote from: Malthus on July 27, 2016, 04:17:38 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 27, 2016, 01:48:04 PM
Will there ever come a point when for most progressive liberals, they'll eventually attribute the violence to a fundamental part of what is Islam?
I guess as soon as they forget that the 'insane acts of random violence' thing is a relatively recent phenomenon while Islam is over fifteen hundred years old. :hmm:
Yeah, Mohammed never used an AK-47.
Quote from: Zanza on July 28, 2016, 11:38:26 AM
Mr Sonboly had bought his gun illegally from Slovakia through the "dark net", an encrypted portion of the internet. The weapon had been disabled for use as a stage prop; Mr Sonboly or someone else later restored it to shoot live rounds.
Interesting.
The mainstream media may want to press the "oh he just reactivated it" fairytale to those that have no knowledge of guns, but I've seen how weapons are disabled. There is pretty much no chance of them being reactivated again.
I'm sure that people here who have handled/examined deactivated weapons can attest to this.
The only way it can possibly be done is to literally build anew (with professional tools) all the deactivated parts and replace them.
There is also precisely 0% chance of a 18-year-old like Ali David Sonboly being able to do it; or any normal adult, for that matter.
IF this report resembles the truth, the Glock 17 HAD to be restored by, quite literally, a weapons expert with access to specialized tools.
(it would also have been far more practical and possibly cheaper to just get a normal gun).
Quote from: Martim Silva on July 28, 2016, 10:54:52 PM
Interesting.
The mainstream media may want to press the "oh he just reactivated it" fairytale to those that have no knowledge of guns, but I've seen how weapons are disabled. There is pretty much no chance of them being reactivated again.
I'm sure that people here who have handled/examined deactivated weapons can attest to this.
The only way it can possibly be done is to literally build anew (with professional tools) all the deactivated parts and replace them.
There is also precisely 0% chance of a 18-year-old like Ali David Sonboly being able to do it; or any normal adult, for that matter.
IF this report resembles the truth, the Glock 17 HAD to be restored by, quite literally, a weapons expert with access to specialized tools.
(it would also have been far more practical and possibly cheaper to just get a normal gun).
You have convinced me: they have the wrong man and his gun could not possibly be the wrong murder weapon.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 27, 2016, 01:34:23 PM
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/2d9a143cc0f210a2f0e31af865be68675c36c75e/0_0_4848_3318/master/4848.jpg?w=940&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=2e3855b0d3ba3e24219a58e7c3048dc2)
Gunna be honest here, I don't care for the BBC's new look.
Just as an update, the German police has arrested the man that insulted the shooter, during their altercation that was filmed by everyone:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/696646/Thomas-Salbey-Munich-shooter-Ali-Sonboly-prosecution
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article157477536/Anwohner-nach-Balkon-Wutrede-angezeigt.html
He is accused to have "insulted" the killer, which is bad for the memory of the dead, namely the attacker.
You can't make this shit up. The German police and Justice are certainly acting against the interests of the German public.
(and that after the Muslims that were detained for harassing women in Cologne during New Years Eve were allowed to go free, even though it was proved they were guilty)
Some blogger filed a criminal complaint that alleged that the rant was before the murders and might have incited the perpetrator. It was not about insult, but about incitement.
The prosecutor had a look at the criminal complaint and dropped it as it was based on wrong facts. That's how rule of law here works.
He was of course not arrested.
You seem to have made up this shit after all.
If he didn't the Express definitely did.
Quote from: Zanza on August 06, 2016, 09:57:25 AM
Some blogger filed a criminal complaint that alleged that the rant was before the murders and might have incited the perpetrator. It was not about insult, but about incitement.
The prosecutor had a look at the criminal complaint and dropped it as it was based on wrong facts. That's how rule of law here works.
He was of course not arrested.
You seem to have made up this shit after all.
My understanding was the guy was trying to distract the gun man, to allow time for others to escape/police arrive, any truth in that?
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 06, 2016, 10:00:54 AM
If he didn't the Express definitely did.
Who besides Martim would be gullible enough to cite the Express as their news source? Not even another British tabloid would take the word of the Express for anything.
Martim needs to go back to using ambassadors as his news sources.