https://www.yahoo.com/movies/star-trek-actor-anton-yelchin-dies-car-crash-175216196.html
So terrible. :( Besides Star Trek, I remember him from Terminator Salvation.
:huh: :(
I really liked him in Green Room. :(
:(
What a weird way to die. Poor lad, I liked him as an actor.
:(
So cute - so dead - so early. :glare:
G.
Poor bastard was doomed the moment they put him in a red shirt.
Quote from: celedhring on June 19, 2016, 03:03:53 PM
What a weird way to die. Poor lad, I liked him as an actor.
I was going to ask what's so weird about dying in an automobile accident, but after checking out the link--yeah, that's a pretty unusual auto accident.
That is pretty fucked up.
Indeed. Probably a sad, tragic case of a crappily designed transmission system (there is an internets story about that out there), and the bad old human instinct of "I can stop my multi-ton vehicle from rolling!", when one should just let it crash.
Прощай.
Or just forgetting to put it in "Park".
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 20, 2016, 07:19:14 PM
Or just forgetting to put it in "Park".
That seems to be by far the most likely explanation in general, but you'd think it would be pretty obvious on the scene which gear the car was in. Unless a family member saw the body, saw the car, and decided to shift it in P to cash in on the lawsuit before calling 911.
Quote from: DGuller on June 20, 2016, 07:23:11 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 20, 2016, 07:19:14 PM
Or just forgetting to put it in "Park".
That seems to be by far the most likely explanation in general, but you'd think it would be pretty obvious on the scene which gear the car was in. Unless a family member saw the body, saw the car, and decided to shift it in P to cash in on the lawsuit before calling 911.
Apparently, the vehicle in question was under recall because its gearshift system was dangerously confusing, leading to numerous reported incidents. Allegedly, you had to do some very specific actions to put it into "park", and it was easy to get it wrong.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/anton-yelchin-death-accident-1.3643587
QuoteThe 2015 model-year Grand Cherokees were part of a global recall of 1.1 million vehicles announced by automaker Fiat Chrysler in April, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration records show.
The agency urged the recall because of complaints from drivers who had trouble telling if they had put the automatic transmissions in park. If they were not in park and a driver left the vehicle, it could roll away.
Fiat Chrysler expected to send recall notification letters to owners on May 16, according to a memo to dealers, but it's not known whether Yelchin received or saw his letter. The company was working on a fix and expected to have a final remedy in October or later, the letter said.
Investigators were looking into the position of Yelchin's gear shift at the time of the accident, Officer Jane Kim said. The actor had gotten out of the vehicle momentarily, but police didn't say why he was behind it when it started rolling.
Fiat investigating incident
Fiat Chrysler said in a statement Monday that it was investigating and it was premature to speculate on the cause of the crash. It offered sympathies to Yelchin's friends and family.
The highway safety agency received 121 reports of crashes related to the gear shift problem, records show. Fiat Chrysler said in April that it's aware of 41 potentially related injuries.
The recalled vehicles, including nearly 812,000 in the U.S., have an electronic shift lever that toggles forward or backward to let the driver select the gear instead of moving along a track like a conventional shifter. A light shows which gear is selected, but to get from drive to park, drivers must push the lever forward three times.
The recalled vehicles sound a chime and issue a dashboard warning if the driver's door is opened while they are not in park. But the push-button ignition won't shut off the engine if not in park, increasing the risk of the vehicles rolling away after drivers have gotten out.
The Grand Cherokee gear shifters were changed in the 2016 model year so that it works like those in older cars.
It looks like a lawsuit or a hefty settlement is likely, on these facts. The estate will say that the defect was proven, and the facts point to the death being the result of the defect. The carmaker may say that there was no reason for him to be behind the vehicle, but it will be very risky for them.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TpgyxHwV8Fo/maxresdefault.jpg)
This is apparently the shifter. It doesn't seem to be particularly confusing. :unsure: If the P is lit, it's in park......right?
Seems needlessly complicated. There are times when knobs are actually more useful than up/down buttons, and not just old-fashioned. It seems to me that gear selectors fall in that category.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 09:51:37 AM
This is apparently the shifter. It doesn't seem to be particularly confusing. :unsure: If the P is lit, it's in park......right?
It certainly doesn't look confusing to me; but then, I've never driven with it.
The problem the car maker will have, though, is in arguing that the system isn't defective, when they have
already agreed to a recall. A jury will question why, if there is no problem with it, a recall was initiated.
It sounds like they're having to put some sort of kill switch in there since some people aren't bothering to look at the light (it apparently already makes noise). Tap it up three times from D = park. Tap it up once from D = neutral. The light says what it's in. I wonder if people are just pushing it harder and thinking that's enough to put it in park.
Just killing the engine won't take it out of neutral though, so it would still roll down a hill after you toss it in neutral and jump out to...do whatever it is you're doing. It at least won't idle forward in parking lots or whatever though, I guess. They'll have to have it hit the breaks when whatever genius is in there opens the door.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 10:05:50 AM
It sounds like they're having to put some sort of kill switch in there since some people aren't bothering to look at the light (it apparently already makes noise). Tap it up three times from D = park. Tap it up once from D = neutral. The light says what it's in. I wonder if people are just pushing it harder and thinking that's enough to put it in park.
Just killing the engine won't take it out of neutral though, so it would still roll down a hill after you toss it in neutral and jump out to...do whatever it is you're doing. It at least won't idle forward in parking lots or whatever though, I guess. They'll have to have it hit the breaks when whatever genius is in there opens the door.
I imagine they made it impossible to shut off the engine in gears other than park partly because you wouldn't be able to see which gear you're in when the engine is off. It sounds like one of the problems is that sometimes instead of ensuring this features makes people put it in park, it makes them exit the vehicle without either putting it in park or shutting off their engine. If you can absentmindedly derp on the purely electronic gear selection, you can likewise derp on the fact that your push-button ignition didn't shut the engine off.
Seems like all they really should need to do is have the brakes apply when the door is opened, unless there are some laws about that or some such. Doesn't really matter if the engine is running at that point, as long as it's stopped. Although that might encourage people to just stop and open the door instead of actually looking and putting it in park. :hmm: What a strange problem to have.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 10:05:50 AM
It sounds like they're having to put some sort of kill switch in there since some people aren't bothering to look at the light (it apparently already makes noise). Tap it up three times from D = park. Tap it up once from D = neutral. The light says what it's in. I wonder if people are just pushing it harder and thinking that's enough to put it in park.
Just killing the engine won't take it out of neutral though, so it would still roll down a hill after you toss it in neutral and jump out to...do whatever it is you're doing. It at least won't idle forward in parking lots or whatever though, I guess. They'll have to have it hit the breaks when whatever genius is in there opens the door.
Tap it three times to go from D to park? That's unnecessarily complex and confusing. Is there any reason to adopt that design rather than the common "move the stick" design?
Quote from: Monoriu on June 21, 2016, 10:26:46 AM
Tap it three times to go from D to park? That's unnecessarily complex and confusing. Is there any reason to adopt that design rather than the common "move the stick" design?
Electrical shifter is probably cheaper than a mechanical.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 21, 2016, 10:26:46 AM
Tap it three times to go from D to park? That's unnecessarily complex and confusing. Is there any reason to adopt that design rather than the common "move the stick" design?
It's in order. If you look at the shifter, it goes P > R > N > D/S (the S is manual shifting. I think the new G Cherokees have some dumb paddle shifters). So if you're in D, you tap it up 1x to go to N, 2x to R, 3x to P. Tap 3x down for drive, etc.
And yeah, like Frunk says, it's probably cheaper.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 21, 2016, 10:26:46 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 10:05:50 AM
It sounds like they're having to put some sort of kill switch in there since some people aren't bothering to look at the light (it apparently already makes noise). Tap it up three times from D = park. Tap it up once from D = neutral. The light says what it's in. I wonder if people are just pushing it harder and thinking that's enough to put it in park.
Just killing the engine won't take it out of neutral though, so it would still roll down a hill after you toss it in neutral and jump out to...do whatever it is you're doing. It at least won't idle forward in parking lots or whatever though, I guess. They'll have to have it hit the breaks when whatever genius is in there opens the door.
Tap it three times to go from D to park? That's unnecessarily complex and confusing. Is there any reason to adopt that design rather than the common "move the stick" design?
It's probably a space issue. I imagine most "move the stick" shifters are fully electronic as well, it's just a different way of activating electrical switches.
Quote from: DGuller on June 21, 2016, 10:47:44 AM
It's probably a space issue. I imagine most "move the stick" shifters are fully electronic as well, it's just a different way of activating electrical switches.
It's minimizing and simplifying the mechanical component of the shifter. The communication to the transmission in both cases is almost certainly electrical.
Quote from: Malthus on June 21, 2016, 09:57:46 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 09:51:37 AM
This is apparently the shifter. It doesn't seem to be particularly confusing. :unsure: If the P is lit, it's in park......right?
It certainly doesn't look confusing to me; but then, I've never driven with it.
The problem the car maker will have, though, is in arguing that the system isn't defective, when they have already agreed to a recall. A jury will question why, if there is no problem with it, a recall was initiated.
I would expect a big fight over admissibility of the recall.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 21, 2016, 10:26:46 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 10:05:50 AM
It sounds like they're having to put some sort of kill switch in there since some people aren't bothering to look at the light (it apparently already makes noise). Tap it up three times from D = park. Tap it up once from D = neutral. The light says what it's in. I wonder if people are just pushing it harder and thinking that's enough to put it in park.
Just killing the engine won't take it out of neutral though, so it would still roll down a hill after you toss it in neutral and jump out to...do whatever it is you're doing. It at least won't idle forward in parking lots or whatever though, I guess. They'll have to have it hit the breaks when whatever genius is in there opens the door.
Tap it three times to go from D to park? That's unnecessarily complex and confusing. Is there any reason to adopt that design rather than the common "move the stick" design?
How is tapping a button 3 times more complicated and confusing than moving a lever 3 notches?
Quote from: dps on June 22, 2016, 10:41:02 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 21, 2016, 10:26:46 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 10:05:50 AM
It sounds like they're having to put some sort of kill switch in there since some people aren't bothering to look at the light (it apparently already makes noise). Tap it up three times from D = park. Tap it up once from D = neutral. The light says what it's in. I wonder if people are just pushing it harder and thinking that's enough to put it in park.
Just killing the engine won't take it out of neutral though, so it would still roll down a hill after you toss it in neutral and jump out to...do whatever it is you're doing. It at least won't idle forward in parking lots or whatever though, I guess. They'll have to have it hit the breaks when whatever genius is in there opens the door.
Tap it three times to go from D to park? That's unnecessarily complex and confusing. Is there any reason to adopt that design rather than the common "move the stick" design?
How is tapping a button 3 times more complicated and confusing than moving a lever 3 notches?
1. It is an unusual design.
2. In the conventional design, I can determine the car's gear by either looking/feeling the position of the stick, or checking which light is on. In this design, I can only know the gear by checking the light. I won't know the gear by looking at the position of the stick. When I have 10 things to do in the driver's seat, I cannot gurantee that I know that I have tapped the button 3 times or 2 times.
The thing is that nothing is that hard, 99.9% of the time. But the other 0.1% of the time, when you encounter an unusual situation or your routine is unexpectedly interrupted, is when shit happens. And that's also when the difference between familiar and unfamiliar layouts surfaces. The difference between reacting to unusual situations instinctively and thinking them through can be life and death.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 22, 2016, 07:08:11 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 21, 2016, 09:57:46 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 09:51:37 AM
This is apparently the shifter. It doesn't seem to be particularly confusing. :unsure: If the P is lit, it's in park......right?
It certainly doesn't look confusing to me; but then, I've never driven with it.
The problem the car maker will have, though, is in arguing that the system isn't defective, when they have already agreed to a recall. A jury will question why, if there is no problem with it, a recall was initiated.
I would expect a big fight over admissibility of the recall.
Here I think it would be difficult to keep it out.
Quote from: DGuller on June 23, 2016, 01:31:51 AM
The thing is that nothing is that hard, 99.9% of the time. But the other 0.1% of the time, when you encounter an unusual situation or your routine is unexpectedly interrupted, is when shit happens. And that's also when the difference between familiar and unfamiliar layouts surfaces. The difference between reacting to unusual situations instinctively and thinking them through can be life and death.
Agreed. An overly tricky design, even if usually easy to use, as apparently there have been enough issues to warrant the recall.
RIP to Yelchin. I had been noticing him in more films and he had a great career ahead of him.
How interrupted does your routine have to be to not look to see what gear your car is in, no matter what transmission type you have, before you get out and get in front of/behind it? Who does that? And how the hell do you not notice it moving immediately when you take your foot off the break, or, like, when you're walking past it to do whatever it is you're doing?
It appears Chrysler is having to "recall" it and just go back to a stick that moves back and forth for no reason in later models because people are really fucking stupid and they apparently just didn't anticipate that level of dumbassery, not because it's broken. This doohickey they've got on there is no more or less weird than anything else. The dials/knobs someone mentioned earlier were brand new at one point and are even more different from the "regular" stick type thing than this is.
E: Yeah, the recall report straight up says it's a result of driver error. They're goign to have to make it slam on the breaks when the door is opened or something, so dumbasses won't run themselves over with their own car. Alternatively, they could just hire Chrysler employees to ride around with everyone who owns a Dodge Charger/Jeep GC/Chrysler 300 that was this transmission shifter to look at the light for them.
E2: Seriously, a car company has to tell people this: After the April recall, Fiat Chrysler said in a notice sent to owners that "a permanent remedy for this condition is currently under development" and that the automaker hoped to "finalize" it by the fourth quarter. It warned owners, in the meantime, to use the parking brake and to always check to make sure the vehicle was in the correct gear.
I mean, I get it. People who buy Chryslers, inlcuding myself (it has been remedied at least), have suspect judgement in general, but damn.
E3: Yep here's the fix: The software update will take a few hours to perform. After that the transmission will automatically shift to Park if the driver's side door is opened, the driver's seatbelt is unbuckled and the vehicle is stopped or moving slowly.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/22/autos/jeep-chrysler-shifter-recall-fix/
They have to make the car put itself in to park for the driver. :lol: BMW has the same thing on theirs too. The car puts itself into park when the driver decides to just exit the vehicle. I wonder if Mercedes has that too, with their column shifter thing.
is there an advantage to having a button over a lever?
Quote from: LaCroix on June 23, 2016, 03:12:23 PM
is there an advantage to having a button over a lever?
This one is a combo of the two.
Looks like this:
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--1BbPkK0i--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/f5cymq66nbcv3wo0dacp.jpg)
It doesn't slide back and forth, just tilts a bit, so there's probably a lower cost involved. Press the button, move the stick X number of times to select the gear you want, let the button go. That's a 4WD one, so fiddle with the knob below there for 4wd mode selection. Hope your Big Gulp doesn't sweat all over the fancy electronics and start a fire.
M-Bs column shifter looks like this:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.automotive.com%2Ff%2Fnews%2F1404-priced-2014-mercedes-benz-b-class-electric-drive%2F73382550%2Bw968%2F2014-mercedes-benz-b-class-electric-drive-interior-gear-selector-column.jpg&hash=9e702e5f61bc12760f9c1e351c5a147157a08aeb)
BMWs like this:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seriouswheels.com%2Fpics-2007%2F2007-BMW-X5-Gear-Shifter-1280x960.jpg&hash=33e1bfa5cb2dd67f90afef20a63613c4d2cdc30c)
fair enough. a quick google search suggested it's as you said: traditional shift exists for the sake of tradition rather than efficiency
You know, these different doohickeys, including the dials/knobs, are probably more for aesthetics than anything. I would doubt this particular level has all THAT much cost savings. I mean, there's probably some, but it can't be a huge amount. Really the only difference is the slider, and the lights tend to be in a different place, I guess. Maybe some sort of boot on it, I guess, but you could turn this thing into a "regular" shifter by just giving it a little track to move on. They're all just electric switches anyway these days.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 23, 2016, 03:15:44 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on June 23, 2016, 03:12:23 PM
is there an advantage to having a button over a lever?
This one is a combo of the two.
Looks like this:
<snip>
Of those 3, Chrysler's actually looks the
least confusing. Mercedes' is the worst, I'd think.
That Benz one looks like it's the most likely to get bumped. Looks like you push the button on the end for Park, so what do you do to select a gear? It can't JUST be tap it/move it, because it's right there. Maybe there's a button on the back or something. :hmm:
E: Or maybe a button somewhere else. Although that seems like it would kind of defeat the purpose.
The issue isn't whether the thing is confusing, but also what the results of the confusion might be. If confusion leads to the car not being in drive when the user thinks it is in drive, the user just swears and resets (well, as long as it isn't in reverse! :D). If the results are that the user thinks it is on park when it isn't, that's the problem you have here.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 23, 2016, 02:38:19 PM
How interrupted does your routine have to be to not look to see what gear your car is in, no matter what transmission type you have, before you get out and get in front of/behind it? Who does that? And how the hell do you not notice it moving immediately when you take your foot off the break, or, like, when you're walking past it to do whatever it is you're doing?
It appears Chrysler is having to "recall" it and just go back to a stick that moves back and forth for no reason in later models because people are really fucking stupid and they apparently just didn't anticipate that level of dumbassery, not because it's broken. This doohickey they've got on there is no more or less weird than anything else. The dials/knobs someone mentioned earlier were brand new at one point and are even more different from the "regular" stick type thing than this is.
E: Yeah, the recall report straight up says it's a result of driver error. They're goign to have to make it slam on the breaks when the door is opened or something, so dumbasses won't run themselves over with their own car. Alternatively, they could just hire Chrysler employees to ride around with everyone who owns a Dodge Charger/Jeep GC/Chrysler 300 that was this transmission shifter to look at the light for them.
E2: Seriously, a car company has to tell people this: After the April recall, Fiat Chrysler said in a notice sent to owners that "a permanent remedy for this condition is currently under development" and that the automaker hoped to "finalize" it by the fourth quarter. It warned owners, in the meantime, to use the parking brake and to always check to make sure the vehicle was in the correct gear.
I mean, I get it. People who buy Chryslers, inlcuding myself (it has been remedied at least), have suspect judgement in general, but damn.
E3: Yep here's the fix: The software update will take a few hours to perform. After that the transmission will automatically shift to Park if the driver's side door is opened, the driver's seatbelt is unbuckled and the vehicle is stopped or moving slowly.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/22/autos/jeep-chrysler-shifter-recall-fix/
They have to make the car put itself in to park for the driver. :lol: BMW has the same thing on theirs too. The car puts itself into park when the driver decides to just exit the vehicle. I wonder if Mercedes has that too, with their column shifter thing.
People will derp occasionally. Some people more often, some people less often, but we all misfire from time to time. If you're an engineer, you can either demand the impossible perfection, or make your system idiot-proof to a reasonable extent. Now, what is reasonable is another question, but expecting humans to be as perfect as robots isn't it.
^^ Dude, looking to see if your car is in park before you go inspect your tire tread or seeing what the bumper tastes like or whatever these people do isn't being "robotic" ^^
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2016, 04:39:03 PM
The issue isn't whether the thing is confusing, but also what the results of the confusion might be. If confusion leads to the car not being in drive when the user thinks it is in drive, the user just swears and resets (well, as long as it isn't in reverse! :D). If the results are that the user thinks it is on park when it isn't, that's the problem you have here.
It can be in any gear and they can do it at any time, because the whole thing is caused by the drivers not actually looking at which gear it is in. It's not "confusing" in any way if you actually do that vs.....whatever the hell people are doing, before getting out and walking around in front of/behind their cars. The error that Chrysler made with this setup was they apparently didn't anticipate quite how incredibly, ridiculously stupid people are. BMW did and had their cars just throw themselves into park just like the "fix" for these cars is going to do.
It sucks and is sad that this guy died, but damn. Just look at it. Christ, there's even an indicator on the dash. What, exactly, are these people looking at that is so confusing? I want to see Chrysler's study on this and see if they asked people that question.
2015 GC dash:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.ed.edmunds-media.com%2Fjeep%2Fgrand-cherokee%2F2015%2Foem%2F2015_jeep_grand-cherokee_4dr-suv_altitude_g_oem_1_600.jpg&hash=3ab90a3416af976311aca796ee15d879f80f450a)
It's in park. Note the highlighted P. There is also another light on the gear shifter that you have to grab and push a button on and move to put it in park. People are doing something else, then not looking at that lever or their dashboard before they get out of the car and walk around. What are they looking at? These aren't emergencies that people are talkign about. The NYT talked about some chick who pulled into her driveway, got out to get her kid out of the back, then jumped back in and mashed the gas instead of the break, driving into her house. ANY car would have done that.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 23, 2016, 04:54:50 PM
^^ Dude, looking to see if your car is in park before you go inspect your tire tread or seeing what the bumper tastes like or whatever these people do isn't being "robotic" ^^
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2016, 04:39:03 PM
The issue isn't whether the thing is confusing, but also what the results of the confusion might be. If confusion leads to the car not being in drive when the user thinks it is in drive, the user just swears and resets (well, as long as it isn't in reverse! :D). If the results are that the user thinks it is on park when it isn't, that's the problem you have here.
It can be in any gear and they can do it at any time, because the whole thing is caused by the drivers not actually looking at which gear it is in. It's not "confusing" in any way if you actually do that vs.....whatever the hell people are doing, before getting out and walking around in front of/behind their cars. The error that Chrysler made with this setup was they apparently didn't anticipate quite how incredibly, ridiculously stupid people are. BMW did and had their cars just throw themselves into park just like the "fix" for these cars is going to do.
It sucks and is sad that this guy died, but damn. Just look at it. Christ, there's even an indicator on the dash. What, exactly, are these people looking at that is so confusing? I want to see Chrysler's study on this and see if they asked people that question.
Thing is, if it is possible to design a thing where momentary stupidity isn't a death sentence for someone, it is worthwhile and maybe even necessary to do it - particularly if somehow every other design on the market manages to do it. ;)
The problem here is that, while most folks are apparently not confused and never have a problem - all you need is a small percentage of users to be confused in a bad way, to crank up the deadly accidents when millions of people are driving around in these things. Over a certain number (and I guess how many I do not know), and you have a problem.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2016, 05:01:43 PM
Thing is, if it is possible to design a thing where momentary stupidity isn't a death sentence for someone, it is worthwhile and maybe even necessary to do it - particularly if somehow every other design on the market manages to do it. ;)
The problem here is that, while most folks are apparently not confused and never have a problem - all you need is a small percentage of users to be confused in a bad way, to crank up the deadly accidents when millions of people are driving around in these things. Over a certain number (and I guess how many I do not know), and you have a problem.
Every other design on the market doesn't do that though, that's the thing. My truck will kill the shit out of me if I leave it in neutral and walk in front of it. Well, it would probably be gone and in someone elses living room before I could get in front of/behind it, with the hill that I live on, but you get the idea. ;) What Ford put in there to protect me from myself was a light on the center console and a light on the dash. I have managed to not off myself that way so far, and I hope to keep that streak going. If I do screw it up one day though and kill myself like that, I honestly can't see how anyone would presume that it was Ford's fault. I put it in neutral, got out, and it ran me over because I was on a hill. vOv It's a shitty accident.
They said they know about 41 injuries out of 800,000+ vehicles in the US. Or that might be out of all 1 million plus worldwide. It's not a big number. We only even know about it because this guy was, unfortunately, killed by his derp moment.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 23, 2016, 05:07:53 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2016, 05:01:43 PM
Thing is, if it is possible to design a thing where momentary stupidity isn't a death sentence for someone, it is worthwhile and maybe even necessary to do it - particularly if somehow every other design on the market manages to do it. ;)
The problem here is that, while most folks are apparently not confused and never have a problem - all you need is a small percentage of users to be confused in a bad way, to crank up the deadly accidents when millions of people are driving around in these things. Over a certain number (and I guess how many I do not know), and you have a problem.
Every other design on the market doesn't do that though, that's the thing. My truck will kill the shit out of me if I leave it in neutral and walk in front of it. Well, it would probably be gone and in someone elses living room before I could get in front of/behind it, with the hill that I live on, but you get the idea. ;) What Ford put in there to protect me from myself was a light on the center console and a light on the dash. I have managed to not off myself that way so far, and I hope to keep that streak going. One way to ensure that is by looking at those lights. The thing I dumbass up and always forget to do is lock my doors. Oh and take my water bottle off the side of the bed before driving away. Ugh.
They said they know about 41 injuries out of 800,000+ vehicles in the US. Or that might be out of all 1 million plus worldwide. It's not a big number. We only even know about it because this guy was, unfortunately, killed by his derp moment.
I'm certainly not an expert on the relative frequency of accidents. But given that the maker agreed to a recall, it stands to reason that there must have been
some evidence that this particular design was more prone to such accidents than the traditional designs. The recall was agreed to
before this very notable accident.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2016, 05:16:26 PM
I'm certainly not an expert on the relative frequency of accidents. But given that the maker agreed to a recall, it stands to reason that there must have been some evidence that this particular design was more prone to such accidents than the traditional designs. The recall was agreed to before this very notable accident.
Shit man, it might have been because they DIDN'T think anyone would manage to kill themselves like this and so it's one of those nbd kind of things. Just a software update, send out a letter. The way they were doing it was like every other little recall, and even some higher publicity ones like their hackable radio (they sent USB sticks out with a letter for that one lol). They actually refused to recall the exploding Grand Cherokee and Liberty that involved a
lot of deaths. Like 2 or 300.
Fake edit: http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/04/autos/chrysler-recall-refusal/
Real E: Hm. These things have been in Chrysler cars since 2012 models. E2: Also the NYT story talkign about "Tapping it" I was looking at was apparently wrong. To change it, you just push the button and push it forward or back, depending on the direction you want to go (if you're in D, push forward to get to park, it seems). When the light indicates it's in park, it's in park. It's even closer to the "regular" ones than I thought, it just doesn't fully move. You're essentially doing the same thing though.
Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpgyxHwV8Fo The more I see this thing, the more I don't like the way it looks. Just this stupid thing sticking up that could easily be something lower profile. Anyway, so to get it to stop in neutral instead of going all the way up, you just barely move it up and let it go quickly. That's what they're doing, I bet. Just a real fast tap and they hop out without looking at the lights anywhere. Boom, car in neutral or maybe reverse., and people talking about being "confused," etc. To keep it in D, you'd have to just not press the button. It would be similar to someone (stupid as shit) just pushing my truck's (or...a lot of cars...) shifter forward without pressing the button/trigger. It goes up into neutral and stops. If you don't look at it and are just pushing on it, I guess you could think it's in park? I mean....it is stopped and the lever won't move forward anymore.
Huh.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcarreleasedates2017.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2F2016-Audi-A8-Sedan-interior.jpg&hash=53b9089aeb794d9ab7f8a126c5e5d0116b91e32f)
That's a 2016 A8. Is that the same type of shifter?
E: Okay I've been just hanging out at work looking at stuff re: this and other shifters and......
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--MH6OIstp--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/e3pp2jjvkxo6iovqqolz.jpg)
How the hell do you put this in park? The parking brake is down there below it, but there's....there's no P on the shifter. Is that some sort of pure electronic manual type setup (look how to put it in reverse: left, then up) where you just put it in neutral and hit the parking break? :hmm: It has an automatic setting though if you move it to the right.
"A8" sounds redundant.
Quote from: The Brain on June 23, 2016, 06:44:52 PM
"A8" sounds redundant.
Unless it is a coded message. :ph34r:
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 09:51:37 AM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TpgyxHwV8Fo/maxresdefault.jpg)
This is apparently the shifter. It doesn't seem to be particularly confusing. :unsure: If the P is lit, it's in park......right?
You mean the P that would be hidden under his hand as he "shifts?" And mistakes still happen- my shifter has a staggered track, indicators on the dashboard, and I've
still moved to the wrong gear before.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on June 23, 2016, 09:18:59 PM
You mean the P that would be hidden under his hand as he "shifts?" And mistakes still happen- my shifter has a staggered track, indicators on the dashboard, and I've still moved to the wrong gear before.
Or the P on the instrument cluster. ;) Whichever he wants to use works fine. And yes, mistakes happen and they are unfortunate, especially when it results in someone being killed. Trying to blame it on the car company though? I can see if it was actually IN park and still rolled down and hit him, definitely. Sue the fuck out of them and try to have the "honor" of owning Chrysler, for all I care. They would deserve it.
But the recall thing that is being talked about is due to driver error, not a technical problem, at least not that I've seen. Their fix is a software patch that will put it in park for the driver when they forget, not some sort of repair to the parking break or whatever.
E: I wonder if the new new ones, where they went to a different style of shifter will have that same/similar software installed.
Why didn't he set the emergency brake.
Seems like that would have been helpful, yeah. Speaking of which, so far every time I've parked my turd rental car so far, I've mashed my foot down in the place where the parking brake is on my truck, and then look down there, like a dumbass, to see wtf is going on and why there's nothing there. Every single time. It's got a hand brake between the seats. :rolleyes:
He should have read the Operators manual. Needless death and his fault. So had he pressed the brake pedal, accidentally left the transmission in gear or mistakenly thought the gear shifter was in park then engaged the parking brake, he would be alive today.
2015 Grand Cherokee.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/13522888_10209423933786490_6052510217725760994_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoibCJ9)
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 24, 2016, 12:07:52 AM
Seems like that would have been helpful, yeah. Speaking of which, so far every time I've parked my turd rental car so far, I've mashed my foot down in the place where the parking brake is on my truck, and then look down there, like a dumbass, to see wtf is going on and why there's nothing there. Every single time. It's got a hand brake between the seats. :rolleyes:
:D
I will not talk about an officer effecting a traffic stop, then forgetting to put the vehicle in park, not engaging the parking brake and exiting the patrol car.
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 12:34:03 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 24, 2016, 12:07:52 AM
Seems like that would have been helpful, yeah. Speaking of which, so far every time I've parked my turd rental car so far, I've mashed my foot down in the place where the parking brake is on my truck, and then look down there, like a dumbass, to see wtf is going on and why there's nothing there. Every single time. It's got a hand brake between the seats. :rolleyes:
:D
I will not talk about an officer effecting a traffic stop, then forgetting to put the vehicle in park, not engaging the parking brake and exiting the patrol car.
This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY4Bcd2vJuo Or are there others?
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2016, 07:42:56 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 12:34:03 AM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 24, 2016, 12:07:52 AM
Seems like that would have been helpful, yeah. Speaking of which, so far every time I've parked my turd rental car so far, I've mashed my foot down in the place where the parking brake is on my truck, and then look down there, like a dumbass, to see wtf is going on and why there's nothing there. Every single time. It's got a hand brake between the seats. :rolleyes:
:D
I will not talk about an officer effecting a traffic stop, then forgetting to put the vehicle in park, not engaging the parking brake and exiting the patrol car.
This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY4Bcd2vJuo Or are there others?
Personal experience when I was an FTO.
In my experience kids raised on automatic transmissions almost never use their parking brake. Because in park or in gear an automatic trans won't roll on a hill unless something knocks it out of gear (which is an actual possibility--and why manuals for automatic cars still say to use the parking brake.) People who are a little older (like myself) and who were raised on stick shift are used to the idea that the parking brake is what keeps your car from rolling on an every day basis, and so use of it is as automatic as breathing.
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 12:34:03 AM
:D
I will not talk about an officer effecting a traffic stop, then forgetting to put the vehicle in park, not engaging the parking brake and exiting the patrol car.
:lol: Welp.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 23, 2016, 06:06:33 PM
How the hell do you put this in park?
Below the shifter, to the right on your 2nd image, there's a "P >>>" symbol. That's park, I guess.
Heh. Every car expert and manual says to use the parking brake every time you park with an automatic transmission; I'm willing to bet less than 10% of automatic transmission car owners actually do so. ;)
Quote from: viper37 on June 24, 2016, 02:11:00 PM
Below the shifter, to the right on your 2nd image, there's a "P >>>" symbol. That's park, I guess.
That one is the parking assist thing.
I've actually since looked this up. That's called a DCT transmission, and apparently you put it in neutral and pull the parking brake....and that's it. It's like a manual, except heavier, more expensive, and less fun. Anyway when you turn it off, the parking brake automatically engages.
Quote from: Malthus on June 24, 2016, 02:20:40 PM
Heh. Every car expert and manual says to use the parking brake every time you park with an automatic transmission; I'm willing to bet less than 10% of automatic transmission car owners actually do so. ;)
I always use the parking brake before I leave the car, and I only buy cars with automatic transmissions.
Quote from: Malthus on June 24, 2016, 02:20:40 PM
Heh. Every car expert and manual says to use the parking brake every time you park with an automatic transmission; I'm willing to bet less than 10% of automatic transmission car owners actually do so. ;)
I would take that bet. I've used one every time, as do most of the drivers I know...
Quote from: Habbaku on June 24, 2016, 03:41:30 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 24, 2016, 02:20:40 PM
Heh. Every car expert and manual says to use the parking brake every time you park with an automatic transmission; I'm willing to bet less than 10% of automatic transmission car owners actually do so. ;)
I would take that bet. I've used one every time, as do most of the drivers I know...
10% was just hyperbole; but I would bet good money it is not "most".
In fact, I'd go further - I'd bet good money less than one-quarter of automatic transmission drivers always use parking brakes.
Manual ftw.
I've never personally seen or heard of anyone use their emergency brake in a non-emergency
Quote from: LaCroix on June 24, 2016, 04:54:50 PM
I've never personally seen or heard of anyone use their emergency brake in a non-emergency
:unsure:
Quote from: LaCroix on June 24, 2016, 04:54:50 PM
I've never personally seen or heard of anyone use their emergency brake in a non-emergency
What emergency brake?
I think he means this:
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2010/01/19/nyregion/19brake_inline/popup.jpg)
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 23, 2016, 04:15:07 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.automotive.com%2Ff%2Fnews%2F1404-priced-2014-mercedes-benz-b-class-electric-drive%2F73382550%2Bw968%2F2014-mercedes-benz-b-class-electric-drive-interior-gear-selector-column.jpg&hash=9e702e5f61bc12760f9c1e351c5a147157a08aeb)
That Benz one looks like it's the most likely to get bumped. Looks like you push the button on the end for Park, so what do you do to select a gear? It can't JUST be tap it/move it, because it's right there. Maybe there's a button on the back or something. :hmm:
E: Or maybe a button somewhere else. Although that seems like it would kind of defeat the purpose.
Heh, finally my time to shine. The manual shift is the silver pedal with the plus sign at the steering wheel (there is one with minus on the other side). You can shift gears without taking your hands of the wheel. The "Park" position is a bit obsolete. The car will activate the parking break when you turn it off anyway. I never use it.
Isn't it inconvenient with a pedal on the steering wheel?
Yes, it's a paddle, not a pedal.
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2016, 05:39:03 PM
I think he means this:
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2010/01/19/nyregion/19brake_inline/popup.jpg)
:P
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 05:19:39 PMWhat emergency brake?
"parking brake" = emergency brake. I think it's like pop/soda
Quote from: LaCroix on June 24, 2016, 06:10:43 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 05:19:39 PMWhat emergency brake?
"parking brake" = emergency brake. I think it's like pop/soda
Surely you jest.
nope
Quote from: OttoVonBismarckIn my experience kids raised on automatic transmissions almost never use their parking brake. Because in park or in gear an automatic trans won't roll on a hill unless something knocks it out of gear (which is an actual possibility--and why manuals for automatic cars still say to use the parking brake.)
this is very accurate, though I can't speak for very hilly areas like san francisco
Quote from: LaCroix on June 24, 2016, 06:29:49 PM
nope
Quote from: OttoVonBismarckIn my experience kids raised on automatic transmissions almost never use their parking brake. Because in park or in gear an automatic trans won't roll on a hill unless something knocks it out of gear (which is an actual possibility--and why manuals for automatic cars still say to use the parking brake.)
this is very accurate, though I can't speak for very hilly areas like san francisco
Again not following the manufacturers instructions.
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 06:34:26 PMAgain not following the manufacturers instructions.
now that I think about it, I've never personally opened the manual :hmm:
Quote from: LaCroix on June 24, 2016, 06:40:07 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 06:34:26 PMAgain not following the manufacturers instructions.
now that I think about it, I've never personally opened the manual :hmm:
Do you know which way to turn the tires when parking up or down hill?
Do you use the parking brake when on a hill?
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 06:57:47 PM
Do you know which way to turn the tires when parking up or down hill?
Do you use the parking brake when on a hill?
These are the kinds of things that make me realize it was actually good for me to own that total shitbox (1993 Eagle Talon ES, fuck yeah) when I was younger.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 24, 2016, 07:02:37 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 06:57:47 PM
Do you know which way to turn the tires when parking up or down hill?
Do you use the parking brake when on a hill?
These are the kinds of things that make me realize it was actually good for me to own that total shitbox (1993 Eagle Talon ES, fuck yeah) when I was younger.
:lol: Beaters FTW.
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 07:04:23 PM
:lol: Beaters FTW.
:D I got it at an auction in Colorado around 1999 or so. First car I ever bought with no help from anyone else. That thing was actually really fun until the drive belt popped on the way to South Padre in 2001ish. Kept it for a couple more years, then the linkage fell out of it while in Pensacola (lolz I was following my wife, who was driving the rental car we were going to use to drive here for leave since we had just gotten married and all that, and remember watching her just drive away while I sat there going precisely nowhere with no way to call or anything) and I sold it for $500.
I've only ever used the emergency break when parking on a noticeable incline.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I've only ever used the emergency break when parking on a noticeable incline.
Apparently so did Anton.
Parking brake. So you'll allow the car's weight to bear on the parking pawl.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on June 23, 2016, 09:18:59 PM
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 21, 2016, 09:51:37 AM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TpgyxHwV8Fo/maxresdefault.jpg)
This is apparently the shifter. It doesn't seem to be particularly confusing. :unsure: If the P is lit, it's in park......right?
You mean the P that would be hidden under his hand as he "shifts?"
Quick question for clarification: curious as to exactly what kind of mongo mutant flipper fuckfist do you envision hiding the P when the thumb is depressing the release button.
I would imagine the proper digit to engage that button would be the thumb. However, why do I think the whole palm is the "cool" way.
Make a game of it: Palm it and push it in whatever direction, then floor it and find out what you got. Fun for the whole family!
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on June 24, 2016, 09:40:57 PM
Make a game of it: Palm it and push it in whatever direction, then floor it and find out what you got. Fun for the whole family!
I enjoyed Anton's rendition of the character. In the end it's to bad for the young actor, he was off to a smashing start. Though, if he'd done too many ST movies, a typecast was possible. That would have left a narrowed career with no wiggle room to get free of the character typecast.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I've only ever used the emergency break when parking on a noticeable incline.
You should definitely use it when changing a flat.
At the moment it feels like the UK failed to apply the parking brake properly. :bowler:
Quote from: 11B4V on June 24, 2016, 06:57:47 PMDo you know which way to turn the tires when parking up or down hill?
Do you use the parking brake when on a hill?
no hills where I grew up. just flat prairie for as far as the eye can see
Best threadjack ever. :ph34r:
Quote from: dps on June 24, 2016, 09:47:56 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I've only ever used the emergency break when parking on a noticeable incline.
You should definitely use it when changing a flat.
Why would a person need to do that themselves?
Quote from: garbon on June 25, 2016, 11:30:03 AM
Quote from: dps on June 24, 2016, 09:47:56 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I've only ever used the emergency break when parking on a noticeable incline.
You should definitely use it when changing a flat.
Why would a person need to do that themselves?
So you don't have to wait for help.
Quote from: garbon on June 25, 2016, 11:30:03 AM
Quote from: dps on June 24, 2016, 09:47:56 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I've only ever used the emergency break when parking on a noticeable incline.
You should definitely use it when changing a flat.
Why would a person need to do that themselves?
Why would l d you not?
no desire to learn + willingness to pay = no need to do it yourself
Quote from: LaCroix on June 25, 2016, 11:17:34 PM
no desire to learn + willingness to pay = no need to do it yourself
It's not about the money. It's about wasting your time waiting for help to show up. When you get a flat, (or any kind of car trouble, really) it's almost always at a place and time that help is going to take a while to show up, and usually it's in a place you don't want to wait any longer than absolutely necessary.
To be honest, though,it's not something that you actually need to learn ahead of time. Nobody ever showed me how to change a flat, but the first time I had one, it took about 30 seconds of skimming the owner's manual to figure it out.
I'm sure I'd be able to figure it out if I had no choice, but doing it otherwise seems like a classic false economy. I can fuck something up from inexperience, I can get hit by traffic, I can hurt myself by not jacking up the car properly. I don't really see the point of doing it yourself if you can afford to have someone else do it for you.
The last time I got a flat I had to call a truck to take my car to a parking lot so I (we, actually, dude stuck around and helped, which was nice) could cahnge the tire without getting smoked by traffic. The tire went just as I was going from one highway to another, and I ended up having to stop on the ramp. The shoulder on the I-37 to I-35 onramp is really fucking narrow. When dude pulled up in the truck, he blocked a little of the lane so I could open my door without dying. Good times.
The tires on that A4 really hoovered up everything on the road. I've never had any other tires need to be patched or replaced so much.
Quote from: dps on June 25, 2016, 11:46:15 PMIt's not about the money. It's about wasting your time waiting for help to show up. When you get a flat, (or any kind of car trouble, really) it's almost always at a place and time that help is going to take a while to show up, and usually it's in a place you don't want to wait any longer than absolutely necessary.
risk vs reward. I'm OK wasting an hour or three of it ever does happen. for those who find satisfaction learning about cars and doing their own fixes, great! but not everyone does
Quote from: 11B4V on June 25, 2016, 11:03:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 25, 2016, 11:30:03 AM
Quote from: dps on June 24, 2016, 09:47:56 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I've only ever used the emergency break when parking on a noticeable incline.
You should definitely use it when changing a flat.
Why would a person need to do that themselves?
Why would l d you not?
AAA is pretty cheap.
Quote from: garbon on June 26, 2016, 02:53:15 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on June 25, 2016, 11:03:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 25, 2016, 11:30:03 AM
Quote from: dps on June 24, 2016, 09:47:56 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I've only ever used the emergency break when parking on a noticeable incline.
You should definitely use it when changing a flat.
Why would a person need to do that themselves?
Why would l d you not?
AAA is pretty cheap.
Yes I have AAA.