Actor Anton Yelchin died

[KRonn]

The thing is that nothing is that hard, 99.9% of the time.  But the other 0.1% of the time, when you encounter an unusual situation or your routine is unexpectedly interrupted, is when shit happens.  And that's also when the difference between familiar and unfamiliar layouts surfaces.  The difference between reacting to unusual situations instinctively and thinking them through can be life and death.

Agreed. An overly tricky design, even if usually easy to use, as apparently there have been enough issues to warrant the recall.

RIP to Yelchin. I had been noticing him in more films and he had a great career ahead of him.

[MadBurgerMaker]

How interrupted does your routine have to be to not look to see what gear your car is in, no matter what transmission type you have, before you get out and get in front of/behind it?  Who does that?  And how the hell do you not notice it moving immediately when you take your foot off the break, or, like, when you're walking past it to do whatever it is you're doing?

It appears Chrysler is having to "recall" it and just go back to a stick that moves back and forth for no reason in later models because people are really fucking stupid and they apparently just didn't anticipate that level of dumbassery, not because it's broken.  This doohickey they've got on there is no more or less weird than anything else.   The dials/knobs someone mentioned earlier were brand new at one point and are even more different from the "regular" stick type thing than this is.

E: Yeah, the recall report straight up says it's a result of driver error.  They're goign to have to make it slam on the breaks when the door is opened or something, so dumbasses won't run themselves over with their own car.  Alternatively, they could just hire Chrysler employees to ride around with everyone who owns a Dodge Charger/Jeep GC/Chrysler 300 that was this transmission shifter to look at the light for them.

E2:  Seriously, a car company has to tell people this: After the April recall, Fiat Chrysler said in a notice sent to owners that "a permanent remedy for this condition is currently under development" and that the automaker hoped to "finalize" it by the fourth quarter. It warned owners, in the meantime, to use the parking brake and to always check to make sure the vehicle was in the correct gear.

I mean, I get it.  People who buy Chryslers, inlcuding myself (it has been remedied at least), have suspect judgement in general, but damn.

E3:  Yep here's the fix:  The software update will take a few hours to perform. After that the transmission will automatically shift to Park if the driver's side door is opened, the driver's seatbelt is unbuckled and the vehicle is stopped or moving slowly.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/22/autos/jeep-chrysler-shifter-recall-fix/

They have to make the car put itself in to park for the driver.    BMW has the same thing on theirs too.  The car puts itself into park when the driver decides to just exit the vehicle.   I wonder if Mercedes has that too, with their column shifter thing.

[LaCroix]

is there an advantage to having a button over a lever?

[MadBurgerMaker]

is there an advantage to having a button over a lever?

This one is a combo of the two. 

Looks like this:



It doesn't slide back and forth, just tilts a bit, so there's probably a lower cost involved.  Press the button, move the stick X number of times to select the gear you want, let the button go.  That's a 4WD one, so fiddle with the knob below there for 4wd mode selection.  Hope your Big Gulp doesn't sweat all over the fancy electronics and start a fire.

M-Bs column shifter looks like this:



BMWs like this:

[LaCroix]

fair enough. a quick google search suggested it's as you said: traditional shift exists for the sake of tradition rather than efficiency

[MadBurgerMaker]

You know, these different doohickeys, including the dials/knobs, are probably more for aesthetics than anything.  I would doubt this particular level has all THAT much cost savings.  I mean, there's probably some, but it can't be a huge amount.  Really the only difference is the slider, and the lights tend to be in a different place, I guess.  Maybe some sort of boot on it, I guess, but you could turn this thing into a "regular" shifter by just giving it a little track to move on.  They're all just electric switches anyway these days. 

[dps]

is there an advantage to having a button over a lever?

This one is a combo of the two. 

Looks like this:

<snip>

Of those 3, Chrysler's actually looks the least confusing.  Mercedes' is the worst, I'd think.

[MadBurgerMaker]

That Benz one looks like it's the most likely to get bumped.  Looks like you push the button on the end for Park, so what do you do to select a gear?  It can't JUST be tap it/move it, because it's right there.  Maybe there's a button on the back or something. 

E:  Or maybe a button somewhere else.  Although that seems like it would kind of defeat the purpose. 

[Malthus]

The issue isn't whether the thing is confusing, but also what the results of the confusion might be. If confusion leads to the car not being in drive when the user thinks it is in drive, the user just swears and resets (well, as long as it isn't in reverse!  ). If the results are that the user thinks it is on park when it isn't, that's the problem you have here.

[DGuller]

How interrupted does your routine have to be to not look to see what gear your car is in, no matter what transmission type you have, before you get out and get in front of/behind it?  Who does that?  And how the hell do you not notice it moving immediately when you take your foot off the break, or, like, when you're walking past it to do whatever it is you're doing?

It appears Chrysler is having to "recall" it and just go back to a stick that moves back and forth for no reason in later models because people are really fucking stupid and they apparently just didn't anticipate that level of dumbassery, not because it's broken.  This doohickey they've got on there is no more or less weird than anything else.   The dials/knobs someone mentioned earlier were brand new at one point and are even more different from the "regular" stick type thing than this is.

E: Yeah, the recall report straight up says it's a result of driver error.  They're goign to have to make it slam on the breaks when the door is opened or something, so dumbasses won't run themselves over with their own car.  Alternatively, they could just hire Chrysler employees to ride around with everyone who owns a Dodge Charger/Jeep GC/Chrysler 300 that was this transmission shifter to look at the light for them.

E2:  Seriously, a car company has to tell people this: After the April recall, Fiat Chrysler said in a notice sent to owners that "a permanent remedy for this condition is currently under development" and that the automaker hoped to "finalize" it by the fourth quarter. It warned owners, in the meantime, to use the parking brake and to always check to make sure the vehicle was in the correct gear.

I mean, I get it.  People who buy Chryslers, inlcuding myself (it has been remedied at least), have suspect judgement in general, but damn.

E3:  Yep here's the fix:  The software update will take a few hours to perform. After that the transmission will automatically shift to Park if the driver's side door is opened, the driver's seatbelt is unbuckled and the vehicle is stopped or moving slowly.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/22/autos/jeep-chrysler-shifter-recall-fix/

They have to make the car put itself in to park for the driver.    BMW has the same thing on theirs too.  The car puts itself into park when the driver decides to just exit the vehicle.   I wonder if Mercedes has that too, with their column shifter thing.

People will derp occasionally.  Some people more often, some people less often, but we all misfire from time to time.  If you're an engineer, you can either demand the impossible perfection, or make your system idiot-proof to a reasonable extent.  Now, what is reasonable is another question, but expecting humans to be as perfect as robots isn't it.

[MadBurgerMaker]

^^ Dude, looking to see if your car is in park before you go inspect your tire tread or seeing what the bumper tastes like or whatever these people do isn't being "robotic" ^^

The issue isn't whether the thing is confusing, but also what the results of the confusion might be. If confusion leads to the car not being in drive when the user thinks it is in drive, the user just swears and resets (well, as long as it isn't in reverse!  ). If the results are that the user thinks it is on park when it isn't, that's the problem you have here.

It can be in any gear and they can do it at any time, because the whole thing is caused by the drivers not actually looking at which gear it is in.  It's not "confusing" in any way if you actually do that vs.....whatever the hell people are doing, before getting out and walking around in front of/behind their cars.  The error that Chrysler made with this setup was they apparently didn't anticipate quite how incredibly, ridiculously stupid people are.  BMW did and had their cars just throw themselves into park just like the "fix" for these cars is going to do. 

It sucks and is sad that this guy died, but damn.  Just look at it.  Christ, there's even an indicator on the dash.  What, exactly, are these people looking at that is so confusing?  I want to see Chrysler's study on this and see if they asked people that question. 

2015 GC dash: 



It's in park.  Note the highlighted P.  There is also another light on the gear shifter that you have to grab and push a button on and move to put it in park.  People are doing something else, then not looking at that lever or their dashboard before they get out of the car and walk around.  What are they looking at?  These aren't emergencies that people are talkign about.  The NYT talked about some chick who pulled into her driveway, got out to get her kid out of the back, then jumped back in and mashed the gas instead of the break, driving into her house.  ANY car would have done that.

[Malthus]

^^ Dude, looking to see if your car is in park before you go inspect your tire tread or seeing what the bumper tastes like or whatever these people do isn't being "robotic" ^^

The issue isn't whether the thing is confusing, but also what the results of the confusion might be. If confusion leads to the car not being in drive when the user thinks it is in drive, the user just swears and resets (well, as long as it isn't in reverse!  ). If the results are that the user thinks it is on park when it isn't, that's the problem you have here.

It can be in any gear and they can do it at any time, because the whole thing is caused by the drivers not actually looking at which gear it is in.  It's not "confusing" in any way if you actually do that vs.....whatever the hell people are doing, before getting out and walking around in front of/behind their cars.  The error that Chrysler made with this setup was they apparently didn't anticipate quite how incredibly, ridiculously stupid people are.  BMW did and had their cars just throw themselves into park just like the "fix" for these cars is going to do. 

It sucks and is sad that this guy died, but damn.  Just look at it.  Christ, there's even an indicator on the dash.  What, exactly, are these people looking at that is so confusing?  I want to see Chrysler's study on this and see if they asked people that question.

Thing is, if it is possible to design a thing where momentary stupidity isn't a death sentence for someone, it is worthwhile and maybe even necessary to do it - particularly if somehow every other design on the market manages to do it. 

The problem here is that, while most folks are apparently not confused and never have a problem - all you need is a small percentage of users to be confused in a bad way, to crank up the deadly accidents when millions of people are driving around in these things. Over a certain number (and I guess how many I do not know), and you have a problem.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Thing is, if it is possible to design a thing where momentary stupidity isn't a death sentence for someone, it is worthwhile and maybe even necessary to do it - particularly if somehow every other design on the market manages to do it. 

The problem here is that, while most folks are apparently not confused and never have a problem - all you need is a small percentage of users to be confused in a bad way, to crank up the deadly accidents when millions of people are driving around in these things. Over a certain number (and I guess how many I do not know), and you have a problem.

Every other design on the market doesn't do that though, that's the thing.  My truck will kill the shit out of me if I leave it in neutral and walk in front of it.  Well, it would probably be gone and in someone elses living room before I could get in front of/behind it, with the hill that I live on, but you get the idea.     What Ford put in there to protect me from myself was a light on the center console and a light on the dash.  I have managed to not off myself that way so far, and I hope to keep that streak going.  If I do screw it up one day though and kill myself like that, I honestly can't see how anyone would presume that it was Ford's fault.  I put it in neutral, got out, and it ran me over because I was on a hill.  vOv  It's a shitty accident.   

They said they know about 41 injuries out of 800,000+ vehicles in the US.  Or that might be out of all 1 million plus worldwide.  It's not a big number.  We only even know about it because this guy was, unfortunately, killed by his derp moment.

[Malthus]

Thing is, if it is possible to design a thing where momentary stupidity isn't a death sentence for someone, it is worthwhile and maybe even necessary to do it - particularly if somehow every other design on the market manages to do it. 

The problem here is that, while most folks are apparently not confused and never have a problem - all you need is a small percentage of users to be confused in a bad way, to crank up the deadly accidents when millions of people are driving around in these things. Over a certain number (and I guess how many I do not know), and you have a problem.

Every other design on the market doesn't do that though, that's the thing.  My truck will kill the shit out of me if I leave it in neutral and walk in front of it.  Well, it would probably be gone and in someone elses living room before I could get in front of/behind it, with the hill that I live on, but you get the idea.     What Ford put in there to protect me from myself was a light on the center console and a light on the dash.  I have managed to not off myself that way so far, and I hope to keep that streak going.  One way to ensure that is by looking at those lights.  The thing I dumbass up and always forget to do is lock my doors.  Oh and take my water bottle off the side of the bed before driving away.  Ugh.

They said they know about 41 injuries out of 800,000+ vehicles in the US.  Or that might be out of all 1 million plus worldwide.  It's not a big number.  We only even know about it because this guy was, unfortunately, killed by his derp moment.

I'm certainly not an expert on the relative frequency of accidents. But given that the maker agreed to a recall, it stands to reason that there must have been some evidence that this particular design was more prone to such accidents than the traditional designs. The recall was agreed to before this very notable accident.

[MadBurgerMaker]

I'm certainly not an expert on the relative frequency of accidents. But given that the maker agreed to a recall, it stands to reason that there must have been some evidence that this particular design was more prone to such accidents than the traditional designs. The recall was agreed to before this very notable accident.

Shit man, it might have been because they DIDN'T think anyone would manage to kill themselves like this and so it's one of those nbd kind of things.  Just a software update, send out a letter.  The way they were doing it was like every other little recall, and even some higher publicity ones like their hackable radio (they sent USB sticks out with a letter for that one lol).  They actually refused to recall the exploding Grand Cherokee and Liberty that involved a lot of deaths.  Like 2 or 300. 

Fake edit:  http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/04/autos/chrysler-recall-refusal/

Real E:  Hm.  These things have been in Chrysler cars since 2012 models.   E2:  Also the NYT story talkign about "Tapping it" I was looking at was apparently wrong.  To change it, you just push the button and push it forward or back, depending on the direction you want to go (if you're in D, push forward to get to park, it seems).  When the light indicates it's in park, it's in park.  It's even closer to the "regular" ones than I thought, it just doesn't fully move.  You're essentially doing the same thing though.

Check it out:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpgyxHwV8Fo    The more I see this thing, the more I don't like the way it looks.  Just this stupid thing sticking up that could easily be something lower profile.  Anyway, so to get it to stop in neutral instead of going all the way up, you just barely move it up and let it go quickly.  That's what they're doing, I bet.  Just a real fast tap and they hop out without looking at the lights anywhere.  Boom, car in neutral or maybe reverse., and people talking about being "confused," etc.  To keep it in D, you'd have to just not press the button.  It would be similar to someone (stupid as shit) just pushing my truck's (or...a lot of cars...) shifter forward without pressing the button/trigger.  It goes up into neutral and stops.  If you don't look at it and are just pushing on it, I guess you could think it's in park?  I mean....it is stopped and the lever won't move forward anymore.