QuoteMorning Mix
Columbia student says she went missing and remade herself all to 'escape' her 'Ivy League life'
By Yanan Wang May 31 at 4:17 AM
While her family and friends posted frantic online pleas for help and the New York Police Department scoured the city, 19-year-old Nayla Kidd was moving into her new apartment in Brooklyn's Williamsburg neighborhood.
The then-Columbia University student had last been seen on May 5, in a hall on campus. Then, for the next two weeks, she was gone: disappeared from the apartment she shared with three classmates, absent from her exams, noticeably silent as Mother's Day came and went (She and her mother are close; last year, Kidd made a video).
"Her grades are very important to her — to have her not show up to her finals is very troubling," Alesha Wood, a family friend, told The Washington Post earlier this month. "That is not like Nayla — she loves to go to school."
Indeed, Kidd was a star science student in high school, and a class representative on Columbia's Engineering Student Council. But even those close to her didn't know that at the time of her disappearance, it had been a while since Kidd loved school.
She said as much in an op-ed this Sunday for the New York Post, in the first public statements Kidd has made since she was found safe on May 16.
In a piece titled "Why I had to escape my Ivy League life and disappear," Kidd recounted how the school's pressure-cooker environment led her to become increasingly ambivalent about her schoolwork. As the search for her intensified, she was trying to erase all traces of the life she knew: "I started to totally disconnect. I deleted my Facebook profile first, shut down my phone and got a prepaid number, took all of my money out of my Chase bank account and opened a new one."
These measures were prompted by a sense of alienation from Columbia and its expectations, Kidd wrote. Since arriving in college two years ago, she ceased to be the academic all-star that she had been all her life.
Kidd grew up in Louisville, Ky., and was raised by a single mom, LaCreis Kidd, who her daughter says conducted cancer research at the University of Louisville. Her mother holds graduate degrees from John Hopkins University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, her daughter wrote.
Throughout elementary, middle and high school, Kidd's talent for the subject showed. She was accepted into the highly-competitive Thacher School, a private boarding high school in California where she promptly earned the nickname "The Science Girl."
The teachers loved her and lavished her with praise, Kidd wrote, using her homework as an example for other students. When she was a sophomore, her chemistry teachers announced before 240 classmates that Kidd had garnered the highest score in a national chemistry competition.
These accolades only fueled Kidd's drive to succeed, and it culminated in her Ivy League university acceptance.
"The ultimate climax was when I got into Columbia," Kidd wrote. "Because it's such a prestigious school, it made me feel like I had proven to myself, and everyone around me, that I made it."
When she got on campus, she decided, naturally, that she would study science. But things didn't go smoothly.
The day she moved in was her birthday. "I felt really alienated and alone and didn't find the Columbia students very welcoming," Kidd wrote. "During my freshman year, I quickly went from star student to slacker."
In contrast to the tight-knit community at Thacher, Kidd said, "at Columbia I was lucky if a teacher talked to me." The lack of close connections with her teachers discouraged her from taking an interest in school.
"Even though I was wired to be a good student," Kidd said, "I didn't feel inspired. I got through the year, getting B's and C's, but I didn't care. I was just happy the summer arrived."
Upon her return to classes in September, Kidd signed up for computer science classes and "hated every minute of it."
One morning in April, she woke up and realized she needed to make a change and "started plotting [her] escape."
Weeks before her exams, Kidd stopped going to class altogether. She saved money from her on-campus job, which paid $14 an hour, and sold many of her possessions on Facebook. She found an affordable room in Williamsburg and quietly moved out without her roommates being any the wiser.
She gave her new phone number to a few friends before she left, but she didn't tell them where she was going, and she didn't answer when they called. She wanted to make sense of her situation without external influences, Kidd said.
She described a spiral of isolation:
I was constantly worrying, and the more they tried to contact me, the more I didn't feel ready to tell them. The longer I ignored them, the worse it got.
When Mother's Day arrived, I felt guilty for not calling my mom, but I still couldn't bring myself to do it. I couldn't face her yet.
I never turned on the TV and stayed immersed in my own world. I had only seen the missing-person fliers online.
If Kidd had been on Facebook, she would have seen the flurry of posts from friends, relatives and classmates under the hashtag #FindingNayla. Many noted that she wasn't the type to neglect her academics.
Kidd's disappearance ended after "three big cops" showed up at her new apartment. When she was reunited with her mom at the police station, LaCreis Kidd was reassuring.
"You don't have to explain anything," she told her only child. "An investigator told me you might be stripping. Even if you're a stripper, you're gonna be the best stripper out there." :lol: :lol: :lol:
Kidd wrote that she has no plans to return to school. Instead, she wants to make music and work on her writing and modeling careers.
"I always told myself I needed to find gratification through academia, but now I want to find it on my own through the arts," she wrote. "I finally broke down because I was living a life I thought I should be living instead of living the life I want."
The New York Post simultaneously published a statement from Kidd's mother.
The pair usually spoke at least a couple of times a month, LaCreis Kidd said, so when her daughter went missing, she feared the worst.
"When I was finally re-united with Nayla, it was a bit awkward," Kidd wrote. "How could she just cut me off like that?...I'm not angry, but I'm still recovering from such a traumatic experience."
When Kidd was found, a police official told the New York Daily News, "Basically, she just wanted to get away from it all."
Multiple news outlets reported that Kidd was attending Columbia on a full scholarship. In a recent story, The Washington Post's Nick Anderson chronicled the burdens facing lower-income students in the Ivy League. Despite having their tuition paid for, many are nonetheless stymied by high costs of living, and feel socially alienated from their wealthy peers.
Anderson interviewed students who said they often went hungry to save on food. "The reality of a full ride isn't always what they had dreamed it would be," he wrote.
Jesus wept.
Well I'm glad that she didn't kill herself which is what many unfortunately do in similar circumstances.
We used to call this "Burnout."
Yeah....
This is exactly the sense of entitlement we see from DG and others and expressed in the other thread when they whine about how much it costs to live in the places they want to live. This girl is just another manifestation of that same idea. She will grow up, hopefully. She sounds super smart, if ridiculously sheltered. I am sure her career as a model will go great. Not.
Everyone has the *right* to live where they want, and have the job they want, and the career they want. And if they cannot, then it is some kind of systemic problem that must be solved by someone else - like the state, or the school, or...someone. Not yourself of course, gosh no.
What a great use of police time & manpower to track her down. They should send her a bill.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
This is exactly the sense of entitlement we see from DG and others and expressed in the other thread when they whine about how much it costs to live in the places they want to live. This girl is just another manifestation of that same idea. She will grow up, hopefully. She sounds super smart, if ridiculously sheltered. I am sure her career as a model will go great. Not.
Everyone has the *right* to live where they want, and have the job they want, and the career they want. And if they cannot, then it is some kind of systemic problem that must be solved by someone else - like the state, or the school, or...someone. Not yourself of course, gosh no.
God Damn, you are an asshole.
Quote from: derspiess on May 31, 2016, 08:58:54 AM
What a great use of police time & manpower to track her down. They should send her a bill.
Why send her the bill? She isn't the one who asked them to track her down...
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
This is exactly the sense of entitlement we see from DG and others and expressed in the other thread when they whine about how much it costs to live in the places they want to live. This girl is just another manifestation of that same idea. She will grow up, hopefully. She sounds super smart, if ridiculously sheltered. I am sure her career as a model will go great. Not.
Everyone has the *right* to live where they want, and have the job they want, and the career they want. And if they cannot, then it is some kind of systemic problem that must be solved by someone else - like the state, or the school, or...someone. Not yourself of course, gosh no.
I don't understand how any of that applies here. Sounds like she is doing what she wants now. :huh:
Also, I'm not whining about how much it costs to live where I want to live. I can shoulder those costs. I do worry though about those who cannot. I don't have your optimism in the market and recognize that landlords do a lot of price gouging as they can get away with it. (Like the one place I lived at in NYC that said - oh our policy is just to increase rent by $100 a month, each year).
Raising rent is price gouging?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2016, 10:40:17 AM
Raising rent is price gouging?
You know I don't agree with that simplistic statement, so I don't even know why you would suggest it.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 10:41:48 AM
You know I don't agree with that simplistic statement, so I don't even know why you would suggest it.
I know nothing of the sort. Presumably something in your example is price gouging, either the rent increase, the amount of the increase, telling you in advance, starting a letter with "oh."
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
This is exactly the sense of entitlement we see from DG and others and expressed in the other thread when they whine about how much it costs to live in the places they want to live. This girl is just another manifestation of that same idea. She will grow up, hopefully. She sounds super smart, if ridiculously sheltered. I am sure her career as a model will go great. Not.
Everyone has the *right* to live where they want, and have the job they want, and the career they want. And if they cannot, then it is some kind of systemic problem that must be solved by someone else - like the state, or the school, or...someone. Not yourself of course, gosh no.
Where did she ask anyone for anything? :huh:
A 19 year old that doesn't want the same thing she did when she wad 13, gee what a rare and terrible thing! She decided she didn't want to do whatever she was doing anything more and took action herself to change her situation. Sounds about right to me.
Outside of the disappearing act, which was a poor decision, and the Internet age letting this become a national story I would imagine these are not uncommon feelings for high achieving high school students as they move to college.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
This is exactly the sense of entitlement we see from DG and others and expressed in the other thread when they whine about how much it costs to live in the places they want to live.
Oh, really? I whined about how much it costs to live? Your ability to read what you want to read is breathtaking.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 31, 2016, 10:45:54 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 10:41:48 AM
You know I don't agree with that simplistic statement, so I don't even know why you would suggest it.
I know nothing of the sort. Presumably something in your example is price gouging, either the rent increase, the amount of the increase, telling you in advance, starting a letter with "oh."
Oh well. That sounds not fun for you. :(
Quote from: sbr on May 31, 2016, 10:47:02 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
This is exactly the sense of entitlement we see from DG and others and expressed in the other thread when they whine about how much it costs to live in the places they want to live. This girl is just another manifestation of that same idea. She will grow up, hopefully. She sounds super smart, if ridiculously sheltered. I am sure her career as a model will go great. Not.
Everyone has the *right* to live where they want, and have the job they want, and the career they want. And if they cannot, then it is some kind of systemic problem that must be solved by someone else - like the state, or the school, or...someone. Not yourself of course, gosh no.
Where did she ask anyone for anything? :huh:
A 19 year old that doesn't want the same thing she did when she wad 13, gee what a rare and terrible thing! She decided she didn't want to do whatever she was doing anything more and took action herself to change her situation. Sounds about right to me.
Outside of the disappearing act, which was a poor decision, and the Internet age letting this become a national story I would imagine these are not uncommon feelings for high achieving high school students as they move to college.
:yes:
I have no problem with being burned out, this is an important step in growing up. The irresponsible disappearing act was a really selfish and shitty thing to do though.
I think growing up means you do what you need to do, even if you are burned out.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:14:36 AM
I think growing up means you do what you want to do, epecially if you are burned out.
fyp
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:14:36 AM
I think growing up means you do what you need to do, even if you are burned out.
For sure. And part of growing up is defining what you need to do, even if it's in conflict with what you previously thought you needed to do, or what others tell you you need.
Quote from: Maladict on May 31, 2016, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:14:36 AM
I think growing up means you do what you want to do, epecially if you are burned out.
fyp
Say, you have a child, you have a pet, you have a job, you have signed contracts. Do you just say, oh I am burned out, so I don't want to take care of my child, or my dog, I don't want to go to work this week, I want to forget my mortgage? That's what children do. Adults take responsibility and do what they have to do, even if deep down they don't want to do it.
Hers doesn't sound like a case of burnout at all to me. More a case of insufficient stroking and positive reinforcement.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
This is exactly the sense of entitlement we see from DG and others and expressed in the other thread when they whine about how much it costs to live in the places they want to live. This girl is just another manifestation of that same idea. She will grow up, hopefully. She sounds super smart, if ridiculously sheltered. I am sure her career as a model will go great. Not.
Everyone has the *right* to live where they want, and have the job they want, and the career they want. And if they cannot, then it is some kind of systemic problem that must be solved by someone else - like the state, or the school, or...someone. Not yourself of course, gosh no.
I'm not sure how you got that from, well anywhere on Languish.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:22:14 AM
Say, you have a child, you have a pet, you have a job, you have signed contracts. Do you just say, oh I am burned out, so I don't want to take care of my child, or my dog, I don't want to go to work this week, I want to forget my mortgage? That's what children do. Adults take responsibility and do what they have to do, even if deep down they don't want to do it.
What does this have to do with the young woman in the original article? Did she have any of those?
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:22:14 AM
Quote from: Maladict on May 31, 2016, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:14:36 AM
I think growing up means you do what you want to do, epecially if you are burned out.
fyp
Say, you have a child, you have a pet, you have a job, you have signed contracts. Do you just say, oh I am burned out, so I don't want to take care of my child, or my dog, I don't want to go to work this week, I want to forget my mortgage? That's what children do. Adults take responsibility and do what they have to do, even if deep down they don't want to do it.
Happened to a guy in his 50s at my work.
The company let him take a few months of leave and then he returned.
It happens.
As society becomes more complex and demanding one moves further up the hierarchy of needs. It's simple psychology . It's what drives humans forwards
Quote from: Tyr on May 31, 2016, 11:28:38 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:22:14 AM
Quote from: Maladict on May 31, 2016, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:14:36 AM
I think growing up means you do what you want to do, epecially if you are burned out.
fyp
Say, you have a child, you have a pet, you have a job, you have signed contracts. Do you just say, oh I am burned out, so I don't want to take care of my child, or my dog, I don't want to go to work this week, I want to forget my mortgage? That's what children do. Adults take responsibility and do what they have to do, even if deep down they don't want to do it.
Happened to a guy in his 50s at my work.
The company let him take a few months of leave and then he returned.
It happens.
As society becomes more complex and demanding one moves further up the hierarchy of needs. It's simple psychology . It's what drives humans forwards
I am not sure about that.
My grandparents generation did back-breaking farming work from dawn to dusk, dealt with all kinds of political shit as time went on, and raised kids and helped raised grandkids.
I don't think our generation has it any more complex. There are more OPTIONS which makes it harder to feel like you are doing the optimum, I guess.
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 11:18:06 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:14:36 AM
I think growing up means you do what you need to do, even if you are burned out.
For sure. And part of growing up is defining what you need to do, even if it's in conflict with what you previously thought you needed to do, or what others tell you you need.
Another part of growing up though is being a responsible human being towards other human beings.
Which means it is kind of a dick move to just disappear, and create a huge scene involving the police.
It isn't the end of the world of course, but it is news because she clearly has no reasonable understanding of her own position in society, and how lucky she is - of course, this could just be how the story is being reported.
But assuming there isn't some creative reporting happening, she is pretty selfish, entitled, and unable to handle pretty minor stress. She is hardly the first of course, but it is easy to look at her actions and conclude that she didn't handle this very well.
There are ways to accomplish what she wanted to accomplish that didn't involve, as an example, making her mom think she had been abducted and murdered.
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2016, 11:34:51 AM
I am not sure about that.
My grandparents generation did back-breaking farming work from dawn to dusk, dealt with all kinds of political shit as time went on, and raised kids and helped raised grandkids.
I don't think our generation has it any more complex. There are more OPTIONS which makes it harder to feel like you are doing the optimum, I guess.
More options generally equals more complexity. When there is only one or two options that make any kind of sense, decision making is fairly easy even if following through of them may be hard. When you have thousands or millions of fairly equal looking decisions to make, all with potentially far reaching but opaque consequences, then that's a very different scenario.
Living through a world war, revolutions, the cultural revolution, attempted genocides etc, or living as a subsistence or near-subsistence farmer are hard things to do, no doubt. But those are very different situations - and thus very different stresses - from dealing with the increasing complexities of the socially networked, extensively globalized modern world.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 11:55:25 AM
There are ways to accomplish what she wanted to accomplish that didn't involve, as an example, making her mom think she had been abducted and murdered.
Yeah for sure.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 10:12:47 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 31, 2016, 08:58:54 AM
What a great use of police time & manpower to track her down. They should send her a bill.
Why send her the bill? She isn't the one who asked them to track her down...
Because it was her fault by voluntarily becoming a missing person. There's no scenario where her mom would not have gone to the police about it.
Okay, so I'm going to stick up for the kid.
Well not for the vanishing act, that was inconsiderate and rude in the way only a 19 year old can be.
But it IS a "boo hoo" that a kid that smart, driven and capable felt herself driven away from a full ride ivy league education. That's a tremendous gift that she felt compelled to throw away.
The article at the end mentions a Washington POst article on the difficulty of being poor at an ivy league school. I tracked it down - it's an interesting read:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/for-the-poor-in-the-ivy-league-a-full-ride-isnt-always-what-they-imagined/2016/05/16/5f89972a-114d-11e6-81b4-581a5c4c42df_story.html
I don't know if this kid was going through something similar or not, but it sounds reasonable. I can imagine the isolation she must have felt - in a completely different environment, largely cut off from her family and any old friends. She tries to make new friends, but is very aware that she feels like she "doesn't belong".
Quote from: derspiess on May 31, 2016, 12:01:54 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 10:12:47 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 31, 2016, 08:58:54 AM
What a great use of police time & manpower to track her down. They should send her a bill.
Why send her the bill? She isn't the one who asked them to track her down...
Because it was her fault by voluntarily becoming a missing person. There's no scenario where her mom would not have gone to the police about it.
Yeah, probably true.
I guess I have to say she has the right to disappear if she wants.
But she doesn't have the right to avoid the consequences of doing so, when those consequences are pretty obvious to anyone.
Quote from: Barrister on May 31, 2016, 12:12:28 PM
Okay, so I'm going to stick up for the kid.
Well not for the vanishing act, that was inconsiderate and rude in the way only a 19 year old can be.
But it IS a "boo hoo" that a kid that smart, driven and capable felt herself driven away from a full ride ivy league education. That's a tremendous gift that she felt compelled to throw away.
The article at the end mentions a Washington POst article on the difficulty of being poor at an ivy league school. I tracked it down - it's an interesting read:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/for-the-poor-in-the-ivy-league-a-full-ride-isnt-always-what-they-imagined/2016/05/16/5f89972a-114d-11e6-81b4-581a5c4c42df_story.html
I don't know if this kid was going through something similar or not, but it sounds reasonable. I can imagine the isolation she must have felt - in a completely different environment, largely cut off from her family and any old friends. She tries to make new friends, but is very aware that she feels like she "doesn't belong".
I wish I had had her problems.
No. I can't think at all why one would want those problems. Course Languish answer to mental anguish is to buck up so...
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:20:47 PM
No. I can't think at all why one would want those problems. Course Languish answer to mental anguish is to buck up so...
Well, you went to an elite University, so I could imagine how you would not understand how one might want the problem of "I am going, for free, to one of the best schools in the country, but I feel socially awkward..."
Personally, I think that would be a pretty great problem to have compared to the problems of, oh, 95% of other college freshman aged people.
No shit. Surprise, the local golden child goes to college and finds out she's not The Shit like she was back home, like that's a plotline we've never seen before. Stop the presses.
People would kill a stranger for the opportunity at an "Ivy League life", and she opts out like it's a coat she doesn't like. Columbia University. Jesus Christ.
When she's 28 and Deputy Assistant Barrista General, Latte Division, she'll wish she had that Columbia degree.
The disappearing act is just the icing on this cupcake of bullshit.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:22:14 AM
Quote from: Maladict on May 31, 2016, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:14:36 AM
I think growing up means you do what you want to do, epecially if you are burned out.
fyp
Say, you have a child, you have a pet, you have a job, you have signed contracts. Do you just say, oh I am burned out, so I don't want to take care of my child, or my dog, I don't want to go to work this week, I want to forget my mortgage? That's what children do. Adults take responsibility and do what they have to do, even if deep down they don't want to do it.
I got burned out some time ago, I asked for and was given sufficient time to recover. I also asked for changes in my workload, same complexity but things that didn't suit me out and other things I preferred to do in. I'm doing mostly the same thing but I'm enjoying it significantly more and I'm probably more productive too. I wish I'd done it earlier, but at least a valuable lesson learned.
And yes, my company was very accomodating. If it had not been I knew I would have to look for a new job soon. But that probably would have worked out for the best too, in the end.
The cure for a burnout is a change, not mindlessly continuing and hiding behind responsibilities.
Of course running away is a
childish desparate response, but there are other options. Probably fairly easy ones too, if you recognize the problem early on.
edit: fixed my post.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:20:47 PM
No. I can't think at all why one would want those problems. Course Languish answer to mental anguish is to buck up so...
Well, you went to an elite University, so I could imagine how you would not understand how one might want the problem of "I am going, for free, to one of the best schools in the country, but I feel socially awkward..."
Personally, I think that would be a pretty great problem to have compared to the problems of, oh, 95% of other college freshman aged people.
:yes: I bet she has reading comprehension figured out, at least.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:20:47 PM
No. I can't think at all why one would want those problems. Course Languish answer to mental anguish is to buck up so...
LOL :stupidtreemascot:
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:13:33 PM
I wish I had had her problems.
So because you had a rougher situation you can't feel any sympathy for her?
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:20:47 PM
No. I can't think at all why one would want those problems. Course Languish answer to mental anguish is to buck up so...
Well, you went to an elite University, so I could imagine how you would not understand how one might want the problem of "I am going, for free, to one of the best schools in the country, but I feel socially awkward..."
Personally, I think that would be a pretty great problem to have compared to the problems of, oh, 95% of other college freshman aged people.
Awesome. So maybe we should all shut up about all of our problems as people in say...Syria almost all have it worse off.
Quote from: Barrister on May 31, 2016, 12:12:28 PM
But it IS a "boo hoo" that a kid that smart, driven and capable felt herself driven away from a full ride ivy league education.
As a minor quibble, I don't see any evidence she is driven, and quite a bit that she is not. Smart kids can and do coast through high school.
Deciding the university life is not for her = okay, maybe a good decision or maybe a bad one, but hers to make.
Deciding to disappear, sending friends, family & school into a panic = not okay. Inflicts easily foreseeable harm on those who care about her.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:31:58 PM
Awesome. So maybe we should all shut up about all of our problems as people in say...Syria almost all have it worse off.
Yeah, I honestly don't get that attitude.
By all accounts, Berkut is right: getting a free ride to an Ivy League university is a pretty sweet thing. On the face of it, throwing that away is a pretty foolish thing to do. Nonetheless, this girl walked away from it - in a rather dramatic way too. Seems to me an indication that there's a substantial problem somewhere.
Maybe what I take Berkut to imply is right - maybe the problem is 100% with the girl, rather than any other factors whatsoever. Even so, it seems to me that a better response would be one including some measure of empathy and sympathy, rather than mocking dismissal and rants about "kids these days."
Quote from: Malthus on May 31, 2016, 12:38:10 PM
Deciding the university life is not for her = okay, maybe a good decision or maybe a bad one, but hers to make.
Deciding to disappear, sending friends, family & school into a panic = not okay. Inflicts easily foreseeable harm on those who care about her.
Yup, I agree. To me that's an indication of the desperation the girl felt, rather than an indictment of her character. Obviously mileage varies on this.
Quote from: Barrister on May 31, 2016, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:13:33 PM
I wish I had had her problems.
So because you had a rougher situation you can't feel any sympathy for her?
I can feel a little bit, but not much. Empathy, at least for me, requires some level of being able to put myself in their situation, and imagine how I might react similarly.
But I would not act similarly at all in her situation. Indeed, I've felt socially not accepted many times in a lot less "elite" places than the Ivy League.
Quote from: Malthus on May 31, 2016, 12:38:10 PM
Deciding the university life is not for her = okay, maybe a good decision or maybe a bad one, but hers to make.
Deciding to disappear, sending friends, family & school into a panic = not okay. Inflicts easily foreseeable harm on those who care about her.
I agree that, in a perfect world full of only rational decision-makers, she would have foreseen the consequences of her actions. However, for a person fleeing the pressures of expectations she is ashamed to admit that she cannot live up to, going into a shell isn't unexpected either. She didn't want to talk to anyone because she didn't want to have to explain her "failure." Dumb, as young people can be.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:31:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:20:47 PM
No. I can't think at all why one would want those problems. Course Languish answer to mental anguish is to buck up so...
Well, you went to an elite University, so I could imagine how you would not understand how one might want the problem of "I am going, for free, to one of the best schools in the country, but I feel socially awkward..."
Personally, I think that would be a pretty great problem to have compared to the problems of, oh, 95% of other college freshman aged people.
Awesome. So maybe we should all shut up about all of our problems as people in say...Syria almost all have it worse off.
No, I don't believe I said anything of the kind.
The issue is not whether others have it worse off, it is whether most people who have her level of problems respond in as ridiculous a manner. The question is not how bad she has it, or doesn't have it, it is how she reacted to her perceived problems.
The reality is that her "problems" are not actually unique to her at all, and probably don't really exist in any real sense outside her head. Many, many people feel social anxiety in new situations, and you figure out how to deal with it - this is called growing up.
She failed at that rather spectacularly. Plenty of others fail as well. People drop out of college all the time, for example. People make bad decisions based on an over reliance on their emotional calculus that they will end up regretting forever all the time.
She is in the news, so we are looking at her. My only point is that it doesn't seem like her "problems" are even remotely of the kind that suggests that her solution is even a little bit reasonable, or any kind of indication that there is some kind of problem with the system itself.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:48:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:31:58 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:20:47 PM
No. I can't think at all why one would want those problems. Course Languish answer to mental anguish is to buck up so...
Well, you went to an elite University, so I could imagine how you would not understand how one might want the problem of "I am going, for free, to one of the best schools in the country, but I feel socially awkward..."
Personally, I think that would be a pretty great problem to have compared to the problems of, oh, 95% of other college freshman aged people.
Awesome. So maybe we should all shut up about all of our problems as people in say...Syria almost all have it worse off.
No, I don't believe I said anything of the kind.
The issue is not whether others have it worse off, it is whether most people who have her level of problems respond in as ridiculous a manner. The question is not how bad she has it, or doesn't have it, it is how she reacted to her perceived problems.
The reality is that her "problems" are not actually unique to her at all, and probably don't really exist in any real sense outside her head. Many, many people feel social anxiety in new situations, and you figure out how to deal with it - this is called growing up.
She failed at that rather spectacularly. Plenty of others fail as well. People drop out of college all the time, for example. People make bad decisions based on an over reliance on their emotional calculus that they will end up regretting forever all the time.
She is in the news, so we are looking at her. My only point is that it doesn't seem like her "problems" are even remotely of the kind that suggests that her solution is even a little bit reasonable, or any kind of indication that there is some kind of problem with the system itself.
Well, thank god I never turned to you when I was depressed. Might have ended up in the morgue. :blink:
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 12:40:36 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:31:58 PM
Awesome. So maybe we should all shut up about all of our problems as people in say...Syria almost all have it worse off.
Yeah, I honestly don't get that attitude.
By all accounts, Berkut is right: getting a free ride to an Ivy League university is a pretty sweet thing. On the face of it, throwing that away is a pretty foolish thing to do. Nonetheless, this girl walked away from it - in a rather dramatic way too. Seems to me an indication that there's a substantial problem somewhere.
Maybe what I take Berkut to imply is right - maybe the problem is 100% with the girl, rather than any other factors whatsoever. Even so, it seems to me that a better response would be one including some measure of empathy and sympathy, rather than mocking dismissal and rants about "kids these days."
Is there some reason to think this is a problem with something other than herself?
Are people with full rides to Ivy League schools quitting in droves because the social pressure of attending the best schools in the country for free is just too much for them to handle?
My point is that it seems pretty clear that she is making excuses for her own behavior. Which is fine, to a degree, it is what children do in fact - the kind of person who lacks the maturity to handle some social pressure to perform is likely to be the same kind of person who is not capable of recognizing that this is not a problem with Columbia, or her mom, or society.
I take issue with the idea being presented that we should take this as evidence that something needs to change in the system. That is a system that effects a lot of people, and by and large seems to work pretty damn well since this one person quitting is making the news. I think schools like Columbia probably go out of their way to acclimate less advantaged students as best they can, and likely overall succeed more often than not.
I was on the undergraduate policy committee at the University of Arizona. We were dealing with a problem where something like 33% of all freshman at the U of A did not return for their sophomore year. Now *that* is a real problem that needs some systemic changes to address it. Either they are letting too many in, or not giving them enough support, or something is going on, and the University rightly wanted to figure out what that was, so we spent a lot of time interviewing freshman about their experience at the school in that first year.
One particular young woman making a bad decision? That is no evidence of a problem at all.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:52:13 PM
Well, thank god I never turned to you when I was depressed. Might have ended up in the morgue. :blink:
Because you would have done better turning to someone who told you that all your problems were created by others, and you can just blame them instead?
I think you would do just fine turning to me, or at least as well as you would turning to any non-professional. I would not tell you that your right, the world does suck and depression is a perfectly reasonable way to react to how terribly you have been treated by the mean, mean world.
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 12:45:09 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 31, 2016, 12:38:10 PM
Deciding the university life is not for her = okay, maybe a good decision or maybe a bad one, but hers to make.
Deciding to disappear, sending friends, family & school into a panic = not okay. Inflicts easily foreseeable harm on those who care about her.
I agree that, in a perfect world full of only rational decision-makers, she would have foreseen the consequences of her actions. However, for a person fleeing the pressures of expectations she is ashamed to admit that she cannot live up to, going into a shell isn't unexpected either. She didn't want to talk to anyone because she didn't want to have to explain her "failure." Dumb, as young people can be.
Indeed. She is a kid, and lots of them handle the problems she had in as bad a manner, if not as newsworthy. They drink too much, hop into bed with people they should not, get involved with people they should not, or just check out mentally.
All part of growing up, navigating all that crap.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:57:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:52:13 PM
Well, thank god I never turned to you when I was depressed. Might have ended up in the morgue. :blink:
Because you would have done better turning to someone who told you that all your problems were created by others, and you can just blame them instead?
I think you would do just fine turning to me, or at least as well as you would turning to any non-professional. I would not tell you that your right, the world does suck and depression is a perfectly reasonable way to react to how terribly you have been treated by the mean, mean world.
I don't think she is saying that at all. I don't think she is even arguing that her escape was the best course of action but that it was the course of action that made sense to her at the time.
I think it would not have helped if you told me to 'deal with it' had I come to you as that was what I was trying to do in the first place. And I failed at that.
Also, B, where do you get this argued position that the system needs to be changed? I don't see anything in the OP about her saying that there are systemic changes needed to avoid having what happened to her, happen to other people. :huh:
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:00:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:57:17 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:52:13 PM
Well, thank god I never turned to you when I was depressed. Might have ended up in the morgue. :blink:
Because you would have done better turning to someone who told you that all your problems were created by others, and you can just blame them instead?
I think you would do just fine turning to me, or at least as well as you would turning to any non-professional. I would not tell you that your right, the world does suck and depression is a perfectly reasonable way to react to how terribly you have been treated by the mean, mean world.
I don't think she is saying that at all. I don't think she is even arguing that her escape was the best course of action but that it was the course of action that made sense to her at the time.
I think it would not have helped if you told me to 'deal with it' had I come to you as that was what I was trying to do in the first place. And I failed at that.
I am not really commenting on her though, but rather the idea that what she did should be taken as some indication that there is a problem outside of her that needs to be looked into - I don't buy it, and I don't think her actions are anything to be taken as anything but rather contemptible, even if they are understandable.
I understand why my son doesn't do his homework and instead spends his time playing Call of Duty. That doesn't mean it is ok, or that I should consider it acceptable because it is a common problem. He does it because he is a kid, and doesn't really understand how to reasonably balance his wants with his needs. Neither did she, which is too bad for her, since it is going to cost her immensely in the long run - or it is likely to anyway. It might not - who the hell really knows? Maybe she will be an incredible artist or super successful model, or even just a supremely happy housewife.
Berkut, I'm please for you that things worked out well for you, perhaps from a tricky start, that you made the most of your opportunities and are now doing well; because I'd fear if you'd flunked out and just ended up working in the 'caring professions'. :P
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:03:10 PM
Also, B, where do you get this argued position that the system needs to be changed? I don't see anything in the OP about her saying that there are systemic changes needed to avoid having what happened to her, happen to other people. :huh:
Quote from: JakeOn the face of it, throwing that away is a pretty foolish thing to do. Nonetheless, this girl walked away from it - in a rather dramatic way too. Seems to me an indication that there's a substantial problem somewhere.
Someone else linked an article about the horrors of being in the Ivy League.
Seems like there was some kind of position being put forth that this is a problem with the system, rather than the person.
Certainly the OP made her share of excused as well. Her teachers didn't care about her, the other students were mean, etc., etc.
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 12:45:09 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 31, 2016, 12:38:10 PM
Deciding the university life is not for her = okay, maybe a good decision or maybe a bad one, but hers to make.
Deciding to disappear, sending friends, family & school into a panic = not okay. Inflicts easily foreseeable harm on those who care about her.
I agree that, in a perfect world full of only rational decision-makers, she would have foreseen the consequences of her actions. However, for a person fleeing the pressures of expectations she is ashamed to admit that she cannot live up to, going into a shell isn't unexpected either. She didn't want to talk to anyone because she didn't want to have to explain her "failure." Dumb, as young people can be.
I agree with the points you and Jacob are making here. My only point is that concentrating on her decision to withdraw from university is concentrating on the wrong thing: whatever one thinks about that decision, it's one she can legitimately make.
Deciding to "disappear" is far more problematic (though it may well be understandable, for the reasons you and Jacob state). Speaking as a parent, 'disappearing' must be one of the worst scares you can put them through without actual harm to anyone: her mother would naturally suspect the worst.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:52:13 PM
Well, thank god I never turned to you when I was depressed. Might have ended up in the morgue. :blink:
Now, now...you're not exactly Mr. Support Group Facilitator yourself. :P
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 01:06:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:03:10 PM
Also, B, where do you get this argued position that the system needs to be changed? I don't see anything in the OP about her saying that there are systemic changes needed to avoid having what happened to her, happen to other people. :huh:
Quote from: JakeOn the face of it, throwing that away is a pretty foolish thing to do. Nonetheless, this girl walked away from it - in a rather dramatic way too. Seems to me an indication that there's a substantial problem somewhere.
Someone else linked an article about the horrors of being in the Ivy League.
Seems like there was some kind of position being put forth that this is a problem with the system, rather than the person.
Jake's quote could easily mean that there is a problem with the girl but I'll leave him to speak for himself.
BB did link to something that does note issues that can happen - which is a very real thing. Many poorer individuals scrub out at top schools.
I guess your answer though is there isn't actually an argument being built among those lines. You are semi-constructing one to tilt against.
By the by, if there is any charge to levy against universities, I think it would be the general one of how we assist those with mental illness. Like the fact that this 'brilliant' solution was come across to cut down on suicides at NYU.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/26/nyus-brilliant-design-solution-to-a-buildings-suicide-problem/
Quote from: Malthus on May 31, 2016, 01:08:22 PM
Quote from: grumbler on May 31, 2016, 12:45:09 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 31, 2016, 12:38:10 PM
Deciding the university life is not for her = okay, maybe a good decision or maybe a bad one, but hers to make.
Deciding to disappear, sending friends, family & school into a panic = not okay. Inflicts easily foreseeable harm on those who care about her.
I agree that, in a perfect world full of only rational decision-makers, she would have foreseen the consequences of her actions. However, for a person fleeing the pressures of expectations she is ashamed to admit that she cannot live up to, going into a shell isn't unexpected either. She didn't want to talk to anyone because she didn't want to have to explain her "failure." Dumb, as young people can be.
I agree with the points you and Jacob are making here. My only point is that concentrating on her decision to withdraw from university is concentrating on the wrong thing: whatever one thinks about that decision, it's one she can legitimately make.
Deciding to "disappear" is far more problematic (though it may well be understandable, for the reasons you and Jacob state). Speaking as a parent, 'disappearing' must be one of the worst scares you can put them through without actual harm to anyone: her mother would naturally suspect the worst.
I don't disagree, though I think you could look at the disappearing as a separate act and maybe she 'thought' it the better option, rather than 'disappearing' for ever. Perhaps that was the choice she made?
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 01:06:54 PM
Certainly the OP made her share of excused as well. Her teachers didn't care about her, the other students were mean, etc., etc.
So what? She isn't allowed to point out things that made her feel that way? Working 100 hour weeks, having no social life and being belittled by my boss after having always succeeded was definitely causal in my depression. Doesn't mean there is a systemic problem with companies that I want addressed.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 31, 2016, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:52:13 PM
Well, thank god I never turned to you when I was depressed. Might have ended up in the morgue. :blink:
Now, now...you're not exactly Mr. Support Group Facilitator yourself. :P
I'm pretty soft on the inside. :P
Quote from: mongers on May 31, 2016, 01:12:35 PM
I don't disagree, though I think you could look at the disappearing as a separate act and maybe she 'thought' it the better option, rather than 'disappearing' for ever. Perhaps that was the choice she made?
Not sure I understand this.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:17:51 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 31, 2016, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:52:13 PM
Well, thank god I never turned to you when I was depressed. Might have ended up in the morgue. :blink:
Now, now...you're not exactly Mr. Support Group Facilitator yourself. :P
I'm pretty soft on the inside. :P
TMI.
Visage broken. :P
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:43:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 31, 2016, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:13:33 PM
I wish I had had her problems.
So because you had a rougher situation you can't feel any sympathy for her?
I can feel a little bit, but not much. Empathy, at least for me, requires some level of being able to put myself in their situation, and imagine how I might react similarly.
But I would not act similarly at all in her situation. Indeed, I've felt socially not accepted many times in a lot less "elite" places than the Ivy League.
Btw, that's why empathy can actually be difficult. It isn't as simple as would I react the same way in the same circumstances.
Quote from: Malthus on May 31, 2016, 01:20:54 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 31, 2016, 01:12:35 PM
I don't disagree, though I think you could look at the disappearing as a separate act and maybe she 'thought' it the better option, rather than 'disappearing' for ever. Perhaps that was the choice she made?
Not sure I understand this.
What I alluded to at the start. Perhaps she thought this route was better than committing suicide and was struggling between the two.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:22:26 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 31, 2016, 01:20:54 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 31, 2016, 01:12:35 PM
I don't disagree, though I think you could look at the disappearing as a separate act and maybe she 'thought' it the better option, rather than 'disappearing' for ever. Perhaps that was the choice she made?
Not sure I understand this.
What I alluded to at the start. Perhaps she thought this route was better than committing suicide and was struggling between the two.
Yes I could imagine that struggle in a teenage, it's one thing to decide to flunk out of college, but then they're faced with dealing with the fallout.
Quote from: mongers on May 31, 2016, 01:06:28 PM
Berkut, I'm please for you that things worked out well for you, perhaps from a tricky start, that you made the most of your opportunities and are now doing well; because I'd fear if you'd flunked out and just ended up working in the 'caring professions'. :P
edit: Way too much personal info there.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PMOne particular young woman making a bad decision? That is no evidence of a problem at all.
It's clearly a problem for her. Potentially it's one where the best way to address may not be to tell her "suck it up, don't be stupid".
It may not be indicative of a systemic problem, that's true.
Quote from: Malthus on May 31, 2016, 01:08:22 PM
Deciding to "disappear" is far more problematic (though it may well be understandable, for the reasons you and Jacob state). Speaking as a parent, 'disappearing' must be one of the worst scares you can put them through without actual harm to anyone: her mother would naturally suspect the worst.
Absolutely. I hope she realizes the impact she had on those who love her and avoid doing shit like that in the future.
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 01:32:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PMOne particular young woman making a bad decision? That is no evidence of a problem at all.
It's clearly a problem for her. Potentially it's one where the best way to address may not be to tell her "suck it up, don't be stupid".
Yeah more of a situation where it is like 'okay so your definition of self has been shaken, has been shattered. now how do you move forward, how can I support you in taking those steps'
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 01:32:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PMOne particular young woman making a bad decision? That is no evidence of a problem at all.
It's clearly a problem for her. Potentially it's one where the best way to address may not be to tell her "suck it up, don't be stupid".
It may not be indicative of a systemic problem, that's true.
It is also one where the best way to address it may not be to tell her "You're right, those people at Columbia are assholes and the teachers should have been nicer to you! I understand why you needed to bail out like that. And you would be an AWESOME STRIPPER!!!!".
I'll wager one thing is for sure, it's was better to have this sort of 'meltdown' in a pre-connected online media world than it is today; I'd imagine the level of coverage can't be helping her situation/well-being.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 01:34:22 PMIt is also one where the best way to address it may not be to tell her "You're right, those people at Columbia are assholes and the teachers should have been nicer to you! I understand why you needed to bail out like that. And you would be an AWESOME STRIPPER!!!!".
Agreed.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 01:32:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PMOne particular young woman making a bad decision? That is no evidence of a problem at all.
It's clearly a problem for her. Potentially it's one where the best way to address may not be to tell her "suck it up, don't be stupid".
It may not be indicative of a systemic problem, that's true.
It is also one where the best way to address it may not be to tell her "You're right, those people at Columbia are assholes and the teachers should have been nicer to you! I understand why you needed to bail out like that. And you would be an AWESOME STRIPPER!!!!".
Who is advocating that someone should tell her that?
edit: Oh I see that's what she said her mother said to her.
No kidding. I know I would hate for all my mistakes to be so public
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:38:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 01:32:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PMOne particular young woman making a bad decision? That is no evidence of a problem at all.
It's clearly a problem for her. Potentially it's one where the best way to address may not be to tell her "suck it up, don't be stupid".
It may not be indicative of a systemic problem, that's true.
It is also one where the best way to address it may not be to tell her "You're right, those people at Columbia are assholes and the teachers should have been nicer to you! I understand why you needed to bail out like that. And you would be an AWESOME STRIPPER!!!!".
Who is advocating that someone should tell her that?
Was it in the news item, as I didn't read that, nor did I look at pictures of here, so perhaps there or possibly someone in this thread introduced the 'concept' to the discussion, this is Languish after all.
Quote from: mongers on May 31, 2016, 01:40:57 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:38:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 01:32:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PMOne particular young woman making a bad decision? That is no evidence of a problem at all.
It's clearly a problem for her. Potentially it's one where the best way to address may not be to tell her "suck it up, don't be stupid".
It may not be indicative of a systemic problem, that's true.
It is also one where the best way to address it may not be to tell her "You're right, those people at Columbia are assholes and the teachers should have been nicer to you! I understand why you needed to bail out like that. And you would be an AWESOME STRIPPER!!!!".
Who is advocating that someone should tell her that?
Was it in the news item, as I didn't read that, nor did I look at pictures of here, so perhaps there or possibly someone in this thread introduced the 'concept' to the discussion, this is Languish after all.
Fixed my post as apparently her mother said it.
Also, I'm not sure the girl is against the attention. After all, she did write the op-ed about herself.
http://nypost.com/2016/05/29/why-i-had-to-escape-my-ivy-league-life-and-disappear/
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:41:47 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 31, 2016, 01:40:57 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:38:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 01:32:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PMOne particular young woman making a bad decision? That is no evidence of a problem at all.
It's clearly a problem for her. Potentially it's one where the best way to address may not be to tell her "suck it up, don't be stupid".
It may not be indicative of a systemic problem, that's true.
It is also one where the best way to address it may not be to tell her "You're right, those people at Columbia are assholes and the teachers should have been nicer to you! I understand why you needed to bail out like that. And you would be an AWESOME STRIPPER!!!!".
Who is advocating that someone should tell her that?
Was it in the news item, as I didn't read that, nor did I look at pictures of here, so perhaps there or possibly someone in this thread introduced the 'concept' to the discussion, this is Languish after all.
Fixed my post as apparently her mother said it.
Also, I'm not sure the girl is against the attention. After all, she did write the op-ed about herself.
http://nypost.com/2016/05/29/why-i-had-to-escape-my-ivy-league-life-and-disappear/
Oh thanks for that.
So maybe she's getting more level headed and trying to make the best of her situation*? :unsure:
* I'd hate to think this was a 'set-up' and skilful attempt to translate her life into a media presence?
Quote from: Valmy on May 31, 2016, 10:59:03 AM
I have no problem with being burned out, this is an important step in growing up. The irresponsible disappearing act was a really selfish and shitty thing to do though.
Here's the thing, after you burnout and become seriously depressed you aren't thinking rationally. You just want to hide. Sometimes you want to kill yourself. It's not a good place to be.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2016, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 31, 2016, 10:59:03 AM
I have no problem with being burned out, this is an important step in growing up. The irresponsible disappearing act was a really selfish and shitty thing to do though.
Here's the thing, after you burnout and become seriously depressed you aren't thinking rationally. You just want to hide. Sometimes you want to kill yourself. It's not a good place to be.
Yeah, I think a few here, not necessarily Valmy, aren't getting that point.
Quote from: mongers on May 31, 2016, 01:44:43 PM
* I'd hate to think this was a 'set-up' and skilful attempt to translate her life into a media presence?
You mean fabricate some personal crisis in order to get attention & sympathy for yourself? Nobody at Columbia would ever do that.
(https://angelamadera.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/mattress-girl.jpeg)
Read that op-ed and, hoo-boy.
QuoteI had always fantasized about living in New York, but the first day I moved it was also my birthday. I felt really alienated and alone and didn't find the Columbia students very welcoming.
School just wasn't interesting to me anymore because I didn't have any close connections with my teachers.
I came from a small, tight-knit community at Thacher, and at Columbia I was lucky if a teacher talked to me. I'm a social learner and Columbia didn't provide me that opportunity.
So it's all the fault of the Columbia student body for not being welcoming enough, and the faculty's fault for not coddling her as a "social learner".
Doesn't seem like she feels responsible for any of it.
Reasons aren't always excuses
Quote from: derspiess on May 31, 2016, 02:30:41 PM
So it's all the fault of the Columbia student body for not being welcoming enough, and the faculty's fault for not coddling her as a "social learner".
Doesn't seem like she feels responsible for any of it.
You sure seem fixated on placing blame.
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 02:36:59 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 31, 2016, 02:30:41 PM
So it's all the fault of the Columbia student body for not being welcoming enough, and the faculty's fault for not coddling her as a "social learner".
Doesn't seem like she feels responsible for any of it.
You sure seem fixated on placing blame.
It's what some families* do best.
* Languish could be a posterchild of this.
Quote from: derspiess on May 31, 2016, 02:30:41 PM
Read that op-ed and, hoo-boy.
QuoteI had always fantasized about living in New York, but the first day I moved it was also my birthday. I felt really alienated and alone and didn't find the Columbia students very welcoming.
School just wasn't interesting to me anymore because I didn't have any close connections with my teachers.
I came from a small, tight-knit community at Thacher, and at Columbia I was lucky if a teacher talked to me. I'm a social learner and Columbia didn't provide me that opportunity.
So it's all the fault of the Columbia student body for not being welcoming enough, and the faculty's fault for not coddling her as a "social learner".
Doesn't seem like she feels responsible for any of it.
She's 19. They rarely do at that age.
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PM
I was on the undergraduate policy committee at the University of Arizona. We were dealing with a problem where something like 33% of all freshman at the U of A did not return for their sophomore year. Now *that* is a real problem that needs some systemic changes to address it. Either they are letting too many in, or not giving them enough support, or something is going on, and the University rightly wanted to figure out what that was, so we spent a lot of time interviewing freshman about their experience at the school in that first year.
Isn't that the norm, though? I know that when I went through freshman orientation, we were told that about a third of us wouldn't still be at the school the next year. I figure that's probably pretty much always been the norm, or close to it anyway. Of course, not everyone who leaves drops out because they couldn't cut it--some people transferred to other schools or left for some other reason besides not being able to handle college (be that handling it either academically or emotionally). Heck, my brother left after 3 semesters because he got a job offer that was better than anything he would have expected to get had he stayed to get his B.S.
Quote from: dps on May 31, 2016, 04:10:07 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PM
I was on the undergraduate policy committee at the University of Arizona. We were dealing with a problem where something like 33% of all freshman at the U of A did not return for their sophomore year. Now *that* is a real problem that needs some systemic changes to address it. Either they are letting too many in, or not giving them enough support, or something is going on, and the University rightly wanted to figure out what that was, so we spent a lot of time interviewing freshman about their experience at the school in that first year.
Isn't that the norm, though? I know that when I went through freshman orientation, we were told that about a third of us wouldn't still be at the school the next year. I figure that's probably pretty much always been the norm, or close to it anyway. Of course, not everyone who leaves drops out because they couldn't cut it--some people transferred to other schools or left for some other reason besides not being able to handle college (be that handling it either academically or emotionally). Heck, my brother left after 3 semesters because he got a job offer that was better than anything he would have expected to get had he stayed to get his B.S.
I think it depends. We had someone on the committee who was an ex-Stanford professor. Stanford has basically a near 100% retention rate.
That is probably too high for a large public school like Arizona. But they wanted something less than 1/3rd, but more than 0. Maybe 1/3rd isn't so bad for a large public university like Arizona, but it was considered high for a school that wanted to at least sell itself as a mid-upper tier academic institution.
It's weird people seem to think this is some sort of political act, or grand attention whoring meant to personally offend the people of Languish rather then just a kid with depression and anxiety.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 31, 2016, 05:17:10 PM
It's weird people seem to think this is some sort of political act, or grand attention whoring meant to personally offend the people of Languish rather then just a kid with depression and anxiety.
Yes, but those people would fail at being Languish-like.
This story seems quite weird, I don't know how much is not being told. The girl's reaction was strange and obviously not very considered to those around her, but if what it says about her background is true (raised by a single mom, sent to a boarding school, overachiever, would only communicate with her mother twice per month...) I can see how that girl would be stressed/bummed/burned out. Her environment doesn't exactly seem to be the most nurturing one, and once she started having trouble with her life I can easily understand that the situation would spiral into a bad place.
Overachievers can be brittle. Happens all the time. Not sure this became a commentary on our society.
Could it be the nobody loses mentality of today's lower schooling. I.e. K-12?
Quote from: 11B4V on May 31, 2016, 06:59:07 PM
Could it be the nobody loses mentality of today's lower schooling. I.e. K-12?
Doubt it. That mentality affects the botton range, not the top range.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:41:47 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 31, 2016, 01:40:57 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:38:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 01:32:00 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 31, 2016, 12:55:25 PMOne particular young woman making a bad decision? That is no evidence of a problem at all.
It's clearly a problem for her. Potentially it's one where the best way to address may not be to tell her "suck it up, don't be stupid".
It may not be indicative of a systemic problem, that's true.
It is also one where the best way to address it may not be to tell her "You're right, those people at Columbia are assholes and the teachers should have been nicer to you! I understand why you needed to bail out like that. And you would be an AWESOME STRIPPER!!!!".
Who is advocating that someone should tell her that?
Was it in the news item, as I didn't read that, nor did I look at pictures of here, so perhaps there or possibly someone in this thread introduced the 'concept' to the discussion, this is Languish after all.
Fixed my post as apparently her mother said it.
Also, I'm not sure the girl is against the attention. After all, she did write the op-ed about herself.
http://nypost.com/2016/05/29/why-i-had-to-escape-my-ivy-league-life-and-disappear/
How much do people get paid for these articles I wonder? Depending on the offer, she may not have felt she could turn it down.
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 01:17:51 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 31, 2016, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 31, 2016, 12:52:13 PM
Well, thank god I never turned to you when I was depressed. Might have ended up in the morgue. :blink:
Now, now...you're not exactly Mr. Support Group Facilitator yourself. :P
I'm pretty soft on the inside. :P
That's called the vaginal wall.
Nice Av of the Shady Lady, Mr. Free State of Jones. :P
Eat me, 11Donald. :P
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 31, 2016, 07:34:39 PM
Eat me, 11Donald. :P
I will be unfriended again after this election cycle. FB trolling will be epic. If it comes down to The Donald and Shady Lady, Ill go for Shady.
Dems= Big Govmint=Good for civil service.
Entered CS in 2006 with Bush
Obamanation for 8 years 2008-2016
Shady Lady for 8 years 2016- 2024
=18 years CS and on the glide slope to a second retirement.
Retire, go to Hempfest, get a medical pot card, and burn a big fat bowl. :P
I once worked in university education, and we specifically did a mini study on university student retention rates. In Hong Kong, 99% of first year students are expected to graduate. We actually considered that too high.
Quote from: Jacob on May 31, 2016, 02:36:59 PM
Quote from: derspiess on May 31, 2016, 02:30:41 PM
So it's all the fault of the Columbia student body for not being welcoming enough, and the faculty's fault for not coddling her as a "social learner".
Doesn't seem like she feels responsible for any of it.
You sure seem fixated on placing blame.
Yeah. It's all on her. I have no problem with her walking away from that opportunity if she couldn't hack it. But don't do the disappearing act to cause people to worry about you and don't blame everyone else for your failures.
Everything is your own fault. Unless it's Obama's. It might be Obama's fault. In fact it probably is.
K thnx.
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 06:26:11 PM
This story seems quite weird, I don't know how much is not being told. The girl's reaction was strange and obviously not very considered to those around her, but if what it says about her background is true (raised by a single mom, sent to a boarding school, overachiever, would only communicate with her mother twice per month...) I can see how that girl would be stressed/bummed/burned out. Her environment doesn't exactly seem to be the most nurturing one, and once she started having trouble with her life I can easily understand that the situation would spiral into a bad place.
I mostly agree with you, except I don't think the story is weird at all. As someone else pointed the story of freshmen not adapting well to all the pressures of university for a whole range of reasons is well known. It is also very common for kids in distress to try to avoid telling their parents about it. Especially in circumstances like this. Added to the pressures that all students face in their first year, this kid had to face the pressure of living up to all the expectations. Berkut wishes he had her problems. I don't think he has any idea what she went through or what it is like to be stressed to the point of just dropping out. To add to the problem it sure seems from the few comments about her mother in the article that she was completely incapable of giving the kind of advice and support that would have helped her daughter.
A lot of universities now recognize that proactive action is required and systems are being put in place to detect students in distress early on so that counselling services can be made available. If identified early enough there is much that can be done to help them through the tough patches.
Nothing weird or surprising about this case. The girl reacted to challenge and stress in an alien environment by shutting down and running away, which is a very real response for many people.
Other new college kids also follow the same roadmap and profile for 1st and 2nd year dropouts.
For a fundamental solution, children need emotional education in K-12 schooling, especially in the areas of adaptiveness and resilience. Universities are following suit by providing more first year social and academic support to retain at risk freshmen. The girl was overly praised and sheltered growing up; being an only child to a high achieving mother may have played a part. My high school valedictorian was a similar high achiever that everybody praised as a future CEO and very smart, and she literally cried to a teacher to change one of her grades from a 'B' to an 'A-'. She later left university for a semester due to a mental breakdown.
Overall, the health and wellbeing of young people seem to be suffering. There are multiple tangents we can start thinking about, such as the rapid use of attention deficit drugs by students to cram for exams, increased rates of depression, etc.
Part of the problem is that high school isn't really that hard (though maybe that doesn't apply in that girl's case). If you put your mind to it, and are moderately intelligent, you will ace it. However, as the educational difficulty ramps up, there is no reserve to tap into; lazy smart students can step up to the challenge, but moderately intelligent hard-working students can't work any harder. And if you were overachieving for all the wrong reasons in high school, you have a bad situation when the stresses of college life combine with lack of perfect academic success.
maybe she never really liked science and was kinda pressured into the role because she was good at it?
Students in competitive universities arrive having been groomed, cared for, thoroughly trained for performing at college, where everyone keep telling them they are invested in *their* success. Their dreams have been hemmed in by pressures to perform, and their notions of the Good Life are wholly informed by landing high paying gigs at the best possible firms, whether those are pharmaceutical, biotech, WallStreet, etc.
the same time they operate within a culture - which may include their parents - that lauds college as a great time of partying, having fun, finding yourself, finding love, etc. And yet they are finding an increasingly corporate, bureaucratized environment. One of the recurring problems mentioned by students where I teach stems from their disappointment at finding an atomized social environment that fall short of their expectation of self-discovery.
I think their aspirations are slightly misplaced - for I think they are expecting that this self-discovery will happen like everything happens in a "school environment" these days: with people telling them how to get there, with clear goals, and seminars, and clearly delineated boundaries. I think ascribing that to "kids these days" is moronic: we have made this world for them. They are only expecting what we told them should be the only thing to expect. The peculiar alchemy that made colleges a place of socialization seems to be undone. I am sure some soulless Mono clones will laud and applaud the death of any and all aspirations beyond that of performing to make money - and while there are some students who enthusiastically sacrifice their souls in such a way, we should not be surprised that others want to run away. See the discussion between CdM and Mihaili in the "basement" thread.
Quote from: LaCroix on May 31, 2016, 11:33:20 PM
maybe she never really liked science and was kinda pressured into the role because she was good at it?
She doesn't know. Nobody knows. There was no questioning or true experimentation in her younger years. Thus, the needed emotional education in K-12 schooling would include cycling of students through wildly varying environments, subjects, tasks, extracurricular activities, and social groups. Children then can begin "figuring out who they are" at an earlier age rather than confusedly melting down as young adults when their previous rigid reality is turned upside down.
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 31, 2016, 11:36:36 PM
Students in competitive universities arrive having been groomed, cared for, thoroughly trained for performing at college, where everyone keep telling them they are invested in *their* success. Their dreams have been hemmed in by pressures to perform, and their notions of the Good Life are wholly informed by landing high paying gigs at the best possible firms, whether those are pharmaceutical, biotech, WallStreet, etc.
the same time they operate within a culture - which may include their parents - that lauds college as a great time of partying, having fun, finding yourself, finding love, etc. And yet they are finding an increasingly corporate, bureaucratized environment. One of the recurring problems mentioned by students where I teach stems from their disappointment at finding an atomized social environment that fall short of their expectation of self-discovery.
I think their aspirations are slightly misplaced - for I think they are expecting that this self-discovery will happen like everything happens in a "school environment" these days: with people telling them how to get there, with clear goals, and seminars, and clearly delineated boundaries. I think ascribing that to "kids these days" is moronic: we have made this world for them. They are only expecting what we told them should be the only thing to expect. The peculiar alchemy that made colleges a place of socialization seems to be undone. I am sure some soulless Mono clones will laud and applaud the death of any and all aspirations beyond that of performing to make money - and while there are some students who enthusiastically sacrifice their souls in such a way, we should not be surprised that others want to run away. See the discussion between CdM and Mihaili in the "basement" thread.
If you're right (and I'm not entirely sure if you are or not) then things have really changed since my day, at least in High School. I was considered a high achiever in H.S., but I didn't really feel that there was that much pressure on me to go to an elite university or into a particular field of study. I would have actually appreciated more pressure, or at least guidance, along those lines. For the most part, those of us who got good grades, tested well, etc., were told "You can do anything you want to do; you should be successful in any field of study you want to go into". Nobody helped us figure out what we wanted to do, because why should they--we were going to be good at anything we wanted to do, right?
I find this case surreal. I am a failure at life. But when my parents dragged me to Canada, I experienced a change from high school to university, from HK education culture to Canadian education culture, from a Cantonese to English medium of instruction within weeks. Add that to all the changes about living in an entirely different country. Was it even remotely conceivable for me to say variations of "I needed time to adjust", "I needed help", "I am burnt out", "I am suffering from [mental illness of the week]", "I am not doing well because I left all my friends and the culture here is unwelcoming", "I wanted to discover myself/see the world/have fun at university/party/get a girlfriend", "I want to study what I want to study, not what the job market wants me to study" etc?
The real world is sink or swim. So is university.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 01, 2016, 01:12:57 AM
I find this case surreal. I am a failure at life. But when my parents dragged me to Canada, I experienced a change from high school to university, from HK education culture to Canadian education culture, from a Cantonese to English medium of instruction within weeks. Add that to all the changes about living in an entirely different country. Was it even remotely conceivable for me to say variations of "I needed time to adjust", "I needed help", "I am burnt out", "I am suffering from [mental illness of the week]", "I am not doing well because I left all my friends and the culture here is unwelcoming", "I wanted to discover myself/see the world/have fun at university/party/get a girlfriend", "I want to study what I want to study, not what the job market wants me to study" etc?
The real world is sink or swim. So is university.
Another world is possible, Mono, if you just believe...
Quote from: Monoriu on June 01, 2016, 01:12:57 AM
"I wanted to discover myself/see the world/have fun at university/party/get a girlfriend", "I want to study what I want to study, not what the job market wants me to study" etc?
99% of Americans would say yes to the first, and the ones who would say yes to second would be over 80%, perhaps significantly so.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 01, 2016, 01:12:57 AM
I find this case surreal. I am a failure at life. But when my parents dragged me to Canada, I experienced a change from high school to university, from HK education culture to Canadian education culture, from a Cantonese to English medium of instruction within weeks. Add that to all the changes about living in an entirely different country. Was it even remotely conceivable for me to say variations of "I needed time to adjust", "I needed help", "I am burnt out", "I am suffering from [mental illness of the week]", "I am not doing well because I left all my friends and the culture here is unwelcoming", "I wanted to discover myself/see the world/have fun at university/party/get a girlfriend", "I want to study what I want to study, not what the job market wants me to study" etc?
The real world is sink or swim. So is university.
People only suffer burn out when they have something to burn to begin with.
Quote from: dps on June 01, 2016, 12:25:42 AM
If you're right (and I'm not entirely sure if you are or not) then things have really changed since my day, at least in High School.
I can only offer my appreciation as a college professor today. Make of that what you will. :) My understanding is indeed that things have changed. Hence the growing chasm between what students hear about college from their parents, and what they experience.
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 01, 2016, 02:14:55 AM
Quote from: dps on June 01, 2016, 12:25:42 AM
If you're right (and I'm not entirely sure if you are or not) then things have really changed since my day, at least in High School.
I can only offer my appreciation as a college professor today. Make of that what you will. :) My understanding is indeed that things have changed. Hence the growing chasm between what students hear about college from their parents, and what they experience.
Well thanks for your posts Oexy, I found them informative, though somewhat depressing.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 01, 2016, 12:17:58 AM
Quote from: derspiess on May 31, 2016, 10:11:35 PM
K thnx.
Actually this is probably a BLM plot.
See how many more strawmen you can set up. Don't hold back!
I mean, I probably would have just taken a semester off to relax and maybe changed my major if I was certain I didn't want to continue with engineering. Cutting off normal communications, wiping out the bank account, and moving in with some random artists seems a tad excessive. Seriously: why the burner phone and new bank account?
Whatever, not my life.
E: Her mom wrote something too: http://nypost.com/2016/05/29/reuniting-with-my-daughter-was-awkward-after-she-cut-me-off/
Now I think we need an article by her new and ex-roommates. And maybe one each from the cops that found her.
Quote from: derspiess on June 01, 2016, 09:54:27 AM
Now I think we need an article by her new and ex-roommates. And maybe one each from the cops that found her.
Maybe you and I should write one Spicey. 'Why this stunt by this teenager is so very very important.'
NINE pages of people reading a story which is clearly not painting the full picture (for better or worse), and then drawing wide and overarching conclusion based solely on filling up story holes with their own personal experiences and views.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1247.gif&hash=54818b9121eeb1aff6b56cae75a9947f338ffc84)
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 31, 2016, 11:36:36 PM
Students in competitive universities arrive having been groomed, cared for, thoroughly trained for performing at college, where everyone keep telling them they are invested in *their* success. Their dreams have been hemmed in by pressures to perform, and their notions of the Good Life are wholly informed by landing high paying gigs at the best possible firms, whether those are pharmaceutical, biotech, WallStreet, etc.
the same time they operate within a culture - which may include their parents - that lauds college as a great time of partying, having fun, finding yourself, finding love, etc. And yet they are finding an increasingly corporate, bureaucratized environment. One of the recurring problems mentioned by students where I teach stems from their disappointment at finding an atomized social environment that fall short of their expectation of self-discovery.
I think their aspirations are slightly misplaced - for I think they are expecting that this self-discovery will happen like everything happens in a "school environment" these days: with people telling them how to get there, with clear goals, and seminars, and clearly delineated boundaries. I think ascribing that to "kids these days" is moronic: we have made this world for them. They are only expecting what we told them should be the only thing to expect. The peculiar alchemy that made colleges a place of socialization seems to be undone. I am sure some soulless Mono clones will laud and applaud the death of any and all aspirations beyond that of performing to make money - and while there are some students who enthusiastically sacrifice their souls in such a way, we should not be surprised that others want to run away. See the discussion between CdM and Mihaili in the "basement" thread.
Great post.
One thing that always annoys me about any "Kids these days..." or "The Greatest Generation was..." sort of things is how selfish and lacking self awareness such observations are - the reality is that "kids these days" are *exactly* what their parents and society has made them, to the extent that they actually are any different at all from "kids of previous days".
If they have some kind of systemic issues, it isn't because of THEM it is because of US.
Quote from: Tamas on June 01, 2016, 10:33:42 AM
NINE pages of people reading a story which is clearly not painting the full picture (for better or worse), and then drawing wide and overarching conclusion based solely on filling up story holes with their own personal experiences and views.
That is how discussion works - it's starts with a basic premise or topic, and then expands out to related topics, and sometimes ends up on things that have, at best, only very tenuous connection to the original subject.
Why is this a bad thing?
Kids are basically the same as ever. Everybody said the same shit about my generation. We were slackers who never wanted to do shit and were entitled. Every new generation is entitled and does not want to work...because we were just kids a few years before when we got shit and didn't have to work.
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2016, 10:39:30 AM
Kids are basically the same as ever. Everybody said the same shit about my generation. We were slackers who never wanted to do shit and were entitled. Every new generation is entitled and does not want to work...because we were just kids a few years before when we got shit and didn't have to work.
Yeah. Oex's post was indication of this: Colleges were special places of self-growth and socialisation in my time, they are soulless makers of money-earners now!
Wtf is a "social learner"? A moran?
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2016, 10:39:30 AM
Kids are basically the same as ever. Everybody said the same shit about my generation. We were slackers who never wanted to do shit and were entitled. Every new generation is entitled and does not want to work...because we were just kids a few years before when we got shit and didn't have to work.
No. Work is measurable. Kids today are working less (or "differently") than previous generations. Whether that is good or bad can be debated.
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2016, 11:34:51 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 31, 2016, 11:28:38 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:22:14 AM
Quote from: Maladict on May 31, 2016, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2016, 11:14:36 AM
I think growing up means you do what you want to do, epecially if you are burned out.
fyp
Say, you have a child, you have a pet, you have a job, you have signed contracts. Do you just say, oh I am burned out, so I don't want to take care of my child, or my dog, I don't want to go to work this week, I want to forget my mortgage? That's what children do. Adults take responsibility and do what they have to do, even if deep down they don't want to do it.
Happened to a guy in his 50s at my work.
The company let him take a few months of leave and then he returned.
It happens.
As society becomes more complex and demanding one moves further up the hierarchy of needs. It's simple psychology . It's what drives humans forwards
I am not sure about that.
My grandparents generation did back-breaking farming work from dawn to dusk, dealt with all kinds of political shit as time went on, and raised kids and helped raised grandkids.
I don't think our generation has it any more complex. There are more OPTIONS which makes it harder to feel like you are doing the optimum, I guess.
When you're a turnip farmer working dawn to dusk for a few scheckles a day you don't have many options open to you. Your dreams and priorities are pretty low.
A well educated 21st century white collar person..... the world is your oyster. The tyranny of choice is overpowering.
Your body may be atrophying but your brain has too much time to think.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 31, 2016, 10:21:08 PM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2016, 06:26:11 PM
This story seems quite weird, I don't know how much is not being told. The girl's reaction was strange and obviously not very considered to those around her, but if what it says about her background is true (raised by a single mom, sent to a boarding school, overachiever, would only communicate with her mother twice per month...) I can see how that girl would be stressed/bummed/burned out. Her environment doesn't exactly seem to be the most nurturing one, and once she started having trouble with her life I can easily understand that the situation would spiral into a bad place.
I mostly agree with you, except I don't think the story is weird at all. As someone else pointed the story of freshmen not adapting well to all the pressures of university for a whole range of reasons is well known. It is also very common for kids in distress to try to avoid telling their parents about it. Especially in circumstances like this. Added to the pressures that all students face in their first year, this kid had to face the pressure of living up to all the expectations. Berkut wishes he had her problems. I don't think he has any idea what she went through or what it is like to be stressed to the point of just dropping out. To add to the problem it sure seems from the few comments about her mother in the article that she was completely incapable of giving the kind of advice and support that would have helped her daughter.
A lot of universities now recognize that proactive action is required and systems are being put in place to detect students in distress early on so that counselling services can be made available. If identified early enough there is much that can be done to help them through the tough patches.
Sorry if I was not clear enough, the part of the story that I find weird is the whole "erasing my past self" thing, and going incommunicated from almost everybody she knew. The burnout part is perfectly understandable and not weird at all.
Quote from: Phillip V on June 01, 2016, 10:57:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2016, 10:39:30 AM
Kids are basically the same as ever. Everybody said the same shit about my generation. We were slackers who never wanted to do shit and were entitled. Every new generation is entitled and does not want to work...because we were just kids a few years before when we got shit and didn't have to work.
No. Work is measurable. Kids today are working less (or "differently") than previous generations. Whether that is good or bad can be debated.
Back in my day we measured work with an old stick we found in the barn.
Quote from: The Larch on June 01, 2016, 11:32:43 AM
Sorry if I was not clear enough, the part of the story that I find weird is the whole "erasing my past self" thing, and going incommunicated from almost everybody she knew. The burnout part is perfectly understandable and not weird at all.
Yeah I think that is pretty common feeling at that age. I sure felt it.
Quote from: Tamas on June 01, 2016, 10:41:49 AM
Yeah. Oex's post was indication of this: Colleges were special places of self-growth and socialisation in my time, they are soulless makers of money-earners now!
I do not think my view is colored essentially by some kind of "Universities these days" nostalgia. Unlike many people, I have spent a lot more time in Universities than four years to get a BA, and I could see things change from my time as a student, a grad student, a postdoc and a prof. I think the transformation of many universities into hedge funds with a college attached has had profound repercussions for the organization of colleges themselves - in the ways they generate "units" and "bureaus" that are not terribly connected to teaching, but are rather creating more things to administrate. That universities are more corporate spaces now than they were even when I enlisted appears to me self-evident. That I find it abhorrent is only the reflection of my politics, which you may disagree with, and therefore quite simply turn it a positive.
Of course, colleges will always be places of socialization - if only by virtue of having a large concentration of young people around. To some extent, the whole discourse about them having to be places of socialization also means there will be some measures in place to "facilitate" it. In the 19th century, it was a place of socialization for a particular class of people, who found each other there and peripherally attended courses that taught what an educated person was expected to know. It was not about self-growth: it was about growth, period. Preparing your entry into the upper-middle class world.
The current disappointment, I think, stems from the historically narrow time period when universities had to frantically cope with the massification of attendance, often far from your parent's place (it didn't use to be this way) that came with a climate where universities were places where you got exposed to ideas, and lifestyle, you had not encountered before. College spelled a certain form of freedom. The passage of time, and a certain pop culture (i.e., movies about the college experience, which are either about partying, about awesome teachers bestowing an epiphany upon avid students) has magnified this aura of the university, much beyond what was probably a much less amazing experience for most people. Yet, I think if you came looking for quirky, for strange, for different, for some form of meaning - it was possible to find it, and to nurture it.
For a variety of reasons, which include I think the sheer connectedness of the world, this is less the case now. There is much less unexpected, and the corporatization means that the forms that universities take are quite recognizable to suburban kids. Yet many still keep this idea that there is going to be something - some meaning, some life-altering, life-defining moment.
Quote from: The Brain on June 01, 2016, 10:51:16 AM
Wtf is a "social learner"? A moran?
That annoying person who wants to do way more study groups than everyone else needs.
Quote from: derspiess on June 01, 2016, 12:42:51 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 01, 2016, 10:51:16 AM
Wtf is a "social learner"? A moran?
That annoying person who wants to do way more study groups than everyone else needs.
They're a social disease.
What do you mean by corporatization Uks?
Having spent an absurd amount of time on a college campus myself I can certainly say the romance of the college experience does not really match the reality.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2016, 01:03:02 PM
What do you mean by corporatization Uks?
It's a longer post for later. :)
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2016, 01:18:01 PM
Having spent an absurd amount of time on a college campus myself I can certainly say the romance of the college experience does not really match the reality.
For me it way exceeded expectations.
Quote from: derspiess on June 01, 2016, 01:26:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2016, 01:18:01 PM
Having spent an absurd amount of time on a college campus myself I can certainly say the romance of the college experience does not really match the reality.
For me it way exceeded expectations.
Did you: find yourself?
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2016, 01:41:41 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 01, 2016, 01:26:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2016, 01:18:01 PM
Having spent an absurd amount of time on a college campus myself I can certainly say the romance of the college experience does not really match the reality.
For me it way exceeded expectations.
Did you: find yourself?
Yes. Also found beer & chicks.
Wanting?
Quote from: derspiess on June 01, 2016, 01:44:53 PM
Yes. Also found beer & chicks.
But I was talking about the new exciting ideas part. The idealism. The changing the world and finding yourself shit. I rarely had time for that doing a full course load. Most of my memorable experiences came from the pretty cool stuff I did during the summers or the camaraderie during group projects and stuff.
As far the beer and chicks stuff...hehe...let's just say I went to the wrong school.
Quote from: The Brain on June 01, 2016, 01:48:06 PM
Wanting?
The ones at Marshall? Yes. The ones at Delaware? Nooooooooooooo.
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2016, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 01, 2016, 01:44:53 PM
Yes. Also found beer & chicks.
But I was talking about the new exciting ideas part. The idealism. The changing the world and finding yourself shit. I rarely had time for that doing a full course load. Most of my memorable experiences came from the pretty cool stuff I did during the summers or the camaraderie during group projects and stuff.
As far the beer and chicks stuff...hehe...let's just say I went to the wrong school.
Yeah, my two more memorable college years, where I did the most stuff I'd come to remember for that stage, where the two years when I had the lighter workload. All the others were just work work work study study study.