Lately, I've been hearing the term "alt-right" used a bit. It's being used by somewhat reputable papers like the National Review. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433650/alt-rights-racism-moral-rot (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433650/alt-rights-racism-moral-rot) They don't paint a pretty picture. Left-wing publications are much less charitable.
There is a wiki article on the concept, which seems like such a weird grab-bag that it's hard to take seriously.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right Monarchism? Gamersgate? That's a bit hard to swallow. Admittedly some of the articles that the Wikipedia entry cites do mention things like Monarchism(!), but it's a bit difficult to take seriously. Naturally the more mainstream right-wingers blame the left for all this, but then the Weekly Standard blames the left for pretty much everything.
So is this really some kind of political identification or movement?
From what I understand, they don't like the ascendancy of 'classical liberalism' on the mainstream right and think that we should re-embrace the virtues of authoritarianism and homogeneity. Here's a fairly objective writeup: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-in-an-enormous-planet-sized-nutshell/ (http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-in-an-enormous-planet-sized-nutshell/)
I don't know if it's a "thing", so much as trying to identify and label what Trump is tapping into. Trump mostly isn't left-wing, but he's so very different from the traditional GOP positions that some have attempted to label it. I guess "alt-right" is what is being settled on.
Well I feel stupid, I meant to link the wiki article that I was skeptical of, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right
Quote from: Barrister on April 07, 2016, 04:33:32 PM
I don't know if it's a "thing", so much as trying to identify and label what Trump is tapping into. Trump mostly isn't left-wing, but he's so very different from the traditional GOP positions that some have attempted to label it. I guess "alt-right" is what is being settled on
You think all this started with Trump? Where have you been the past seven or eight years? That article GC posted is from 2013 for example.
You have to stop assuming the American Right wing is like the Canadian conservatives.
Tried it on my keyboard. Nothing happened, so I don't think it's a thing.
Bah, spiess stole my joke.
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2016, 07:53:20 PM
Tried it on my keyboard. Nothing happened, so I don't think it's a thing.
It is page forward so you need to page back first. Then it will do something. Try it and see.
Wow. It totally is a thing. And I think I'm part of the movement! :menace:
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2016, 07:56:39 PM
Wow. It totally is a thing. And I think I'm part of the movement! :menace:
My great uncle Benedict was a zoo keeper in the 1920's. Devoured by a lion, he was and became part of a movement of sorts.
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2016, 07:56:39 PM
Wow. It totally is a thing.
-_-
QuoteAnd I think I'm part of the movement! :menace:
I feel like I helped somebody find their place in the world today :cry:
QuoteYou know, if one person, just one person, does it, they may think he's
Really sick and they won't take him.
And if two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both faggots and
They won't take either of them.
And if three people do it! Can you imagine three people walkin' in, singin'
A bar of "Alice's Restaurant" and walkin' out? They may think it's an
Organization!
And can you imagine fifty people a day? I said FIFTY people a day . . .
Walkin' in, singin' a bar of "Alice's Restaurant" and walkin' out? Friends,
They may think it's a MOVEMENT, and that's what it is: THE ALICE'S
RESTAURANT ANTI-MASSACREE MOVEMENT! . . . and all you gotta do to join is to
Sing it the next time it comes around on the guitar.
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2016, 07:53:20 PM
Tried it on my keyboard. Nothing happened, so I don't think it's a thing.
I bet you'd fucking find it if it was wearing a hoodie and holding a bag of Skittles, Der La Beckwith.
Quote from: Valmy on April 07, 2016, 07:39:00 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 07, 2016, 04:33:32 PM
I don't know if it's a "thing", so much as trying to identify and label what Trump is tapping into. Trump mostly isn't left-wing, but he's so very different from the traditional GOP positions that some have attempted to label it. I guess "alt-right" is what is being settled on
You think all this started with Trump? Where have you been the past seven or eight years? That article GC posted is from 2013 for example.
You have to stop assuming the American Right wing is like the Canadian conservatives.
Why on earth would I ever assume the American right wing is like the Canadian Conservatives? They're very different beasts.
For starters, Canadian Conservatives use the traditional conservative colour - blue. :contract:
I imagine being a monarchist in Canada doesn't automatically mean you are insane. I've read a libertarian tract on why the US should have a monarchy, but I expect lunacy from them. Actually, some of the less appealing things spouted by libertarians are reflected in some of the "alt-right" ideas.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 07, 2016, 09:52:37 PM
I imagine being a monarchist in Canada doesn't automatically mean you are insane.
It just makes you Canadian. :sleep:
I don't think this is a consistent ideological movement - more like an attempt to shift the Orton Window by bringing back into the light topics that were only recently considered beyond the pale of the mainstream discourse. As a result, a lot of it is also trolling.
The Trump support is also easy to explain - because he is not ideologically consistent either. I think what unites Alt-Right is that they are all anti-political-correctness, are social libertarians (at least in the area of free speech) and have a sense of mischief - so it means you end up getting people who range from thought provoking to downright nasty.
It is more a social movement than a political one, imho, with the social status being determined mainly by how many people you can effectively trigger to clutch their pearls. It is also a clear reaction to the leftist domination of academia. The good part of alt-right, imo, is that it brings back the almost forgotten art of a healthy debate (especially as many alt-righters vehemently disagree with each other, but at least agree that there are no ideas that should be taboo and seem to love debating).
In other words, it is a lot like Languish or KAPland (especially in the early days), only in the real world.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 07, 2016, 09:52:37 PMI've read a libertarian tract on why the US should have a monarchy,
You read junk like that but didn't realize there was an alt-right? Maybe you should broaden your news sources? :P
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 08, 2016, 12:43:34 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 07, 2016, 09:52:37 PMI've read a libertarian tract on why the US should have a monarchy,
You read junk like that but didn't realize there was an alt-right? Maybe you should broaden your news sources? :P
If Mother Jones doesn't write about it, it does not exist in Raz's world. :P
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2016, 12:44:52 AM
If Mother Jones doesn't write about it, it does not exist in Raz's world. :P
Eh, I've never heard him reference that place while he's mentioned reading things on Breitbart dozens of times.
There was actually an article by Milo explaining the Alt-Right on Breitbart fairly recently so it does not seem lime Raz reads it. :P
If he's like most Languish readers, his biggest single source of news is Slate articles reposted on Languish. :D
Martinus paints a very flattering picture of alt-right, but not a very accurate one without way more moonman and misogyny.
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 08, 2016, 02:26:54 AM
Martinus paints a very flattering picture of alt-right, but not a very accurate one without way more moonman and misogyny.
Meowtf.
Dare I ask what Moonman is?
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2016, 12:28:23 AM
I don't think this is a consistent ideological movement - more like an attempt to shift the Orton Window by bringing back into the light topics that were only recently considered beyond the pale of the mainstream discourse. As a result, a lot of it is also trolling.
The Trump support is also easy to explain - because he is not ideologically consistent either. I think what unites Alt-Right is that they are all anti-political-correctness, are social libertarians (at least in the area of free speech) and have a sense of mischief - so it means you end up getting people who range from thought provoking to downright nasty.
It is more a social movement than a political one, imho, with the social status being determined mainly by how many people you can effectively trigger to clutch their pearls. It is also a clear reaction to the leftist domination of academia. The good part of alt-right, imo, is that it brings back the almost forgotten art of a healthy debate (especially as many alt-righters vehemently disagree with each other, but at least agree that there are no ideas that should be taboo and seem to love debating).
In other words, it is a lot like Languish or KAPland (especially in the early days), only in the real world.
Way I see it, political correctness, particularly on university campuses, is like chronic ass rash: irritating and lingering, but hardly a threat to one's life. The cure isn't to threaten to take a shotgun to one's own ass. :P
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 08, 2016, 02:35:08 AM
Dare I ask what Moonman is?
Enjoy!
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/moon-man
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 08, 2016, 02:26:54 AM
Martinus paints a very flattering picture of alt-right, but not a very accurate one without way more moonman and misogyny.
Watching the 17 year old 4chan edgelords use the National Review set as lolcows on Twitter is pretty great. :lol:
Quote from: Barrister on April 07, 2016, 09:27:07 PM
For starters, Canadian Conservatives use the traditional conservative colour - blue. :contract:
Not our fault. We had red forced upon us, probably by some lefty who was scared of people making the connection of Demoncrats to socialists/commies.
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2016, 10:46:25 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 07, 2016, 09:27:07 PM
For starters, Canadian Conservatives use the traditional conservative colour - blue. :contract:
Not our fault. We had red forced upon us, probably by some lefty who was scared of people making the connection of Demoncrats to socialists/commies.
Man I miss those days :weep:
So this is the article on Alt-Right Milo wrote:
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2016, 11:48:57 AM
So this is the article on Alt-Right Milo wrote:
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/
Masculinist? FFS
Quote from: Valmy on April 08, 2016, 10:48:24 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2016, 10:46:25 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 07, 2016, 09:27:07 PM
For starters, Canadian Conservatives use the traditional conservative colour - blue. :contract:
Not our fault. We had red forced upon us, probably by some lefty who was scared of people making the connection of Demoncrats to socialists/commies.
Man I miss those days :weep:
So do I. :( I'm not a socialist.
Quote from: Malthus on April 08, 2016, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 08, 2016, 02:35:08 AM
Dare I ask what Moonman is?
Enjoy!
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/moon-man (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/moon-man)
That's Mac Tonight! He has a name!
Alt-right is the logical conclusion of left-wing identity politics.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2016, 06:10:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 08, 2016, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 08, 2016, 02:35:08 AM
Dare I ask what Moonman is?
Enjoy!
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/moon-man (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/moon-man)
That's Mac Tonight! He has a name!
His name is Jay Leno.
Quote from: Hamilcar on April 08, 2016, 07:16:15 PM
Alt-right is the logical conclusion of left-wing identity politics.
:secret: Conservatives have had identity politics well before the left did.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2016, 09:50:04 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on April 08, 2016, 07:16:15 PM
Alt-right is the logical conclusion of left-wing identity politics.
:secret: Conservatives have had identity politics well before the left did.
True, should have been more specific. It's the conclusion of the
current flavor of identify politics on the left. If your power and status depend on how oppressed your group is, compounded by how many oppressed groups you belong to (thank you intersectionality), then it was only a question of time before poor, Christian whites declared themselves an oppressed group.
That is not new either, nor is it an accurate description of who these people claim to be. While they do make a great deal of their whiteness, they are not identifying themselves as poor or particularly Christian. It is a reaction to the empowerment of groups that a not white and male. It seems to be a resentment of equality and a desire to reestablish white supremacy. If it was just another cult of victimization magazines like the National Review wouldn't care. They have been more than happy tolerate those people who claim that Christians are being persecuted in this country. The naked racism crosses the line. The anti-feminism goes too far, into the territory of hating women. This is the ideology of lunatics, of rapists, and spree shooters. The beliefs of internet tough guys, lone wolves, and skinheads. It's the people who think they won the lottery of life by being born white, male and American and bitter the world isn't served up to them on a silver platter. In other words, scum.
You sound very confident for someone who opened the thread asking if such a movement really existed.
Raz just got owned
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 09, 2016, 01:36:46 AM
You sound very confident for someone who opened the thread asking if such a movement really existed.
I can identify ideas. I just wanted to know if there were lots of people who had them.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 09, 2016, 02:14:44 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 09, 2016, 01:36:46 AM
You sound very confident for someone who opened the thread asking if such a movement really existed.
I can identify ideas. I just wanted to know if there were lots of people who had them.
Nah, most people have no ideas.
Leftist identity politics is hardly about equality any more - it is about special treatment for groups defined as oppressed, with a group that ranks higher on the oppression ladder trumping the group lower on the ladder (so while, say, gays trump Christians, women trump gays, and Muslims trump women). And if anyone preaches naked racism, it's racial supremacist groups such as Black Lives Matter.
Incidentally, it is kind of funny that the Western leftists have essentially taken up a lot of practices and rituals of the communist era in Eastern Europe. So, we used to have these big celebrations of the International Women's Day but this was dropped when communism ended - but now apparently, it's a thing in the West. Our universities used to award special points for "social background" (where it got to the point when children of the hated "privileged" intelligentsia and bourgeoisie could not very often even get into the universities, while much less able sons and daughters of the working class received special treatment) but we dropped it rightly as a wildly unjust and horrible practice - only to see it practiced in the West in the form of affirmative action. It's kinda ironic that every country who ever got out of communism thinks these are horribly bad ideas - but Western leftists actually adopt them wholesale.
There really is only one unacceptable prejudice. The type against Marty.
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2016, 02:55:06 AM
It's kinda ironic that every country who ever got out of communism thinks these are horribly bad ideas - but Western leftists actually adopt them wholesale.
that's not ironic, it's caused by the fact the western leftists are more often than not communists at heart. The goals of the communists and socialists were the same, only the means differed (revolution vs incrementalism)
Many prominent Western leftist intellectuals were quite sympathetic to Communism back in the day as well. Modern "identity politics" and it's supporting theories are the natural outgrowth Marxism in any case (though with an expansion or perhaps a shifting from class-based oppressed groups to race, gender and other areas) so it's hardly a surprise that such things would retain popularity in leftist intellectual circles today.
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2016, 02:49:10 AM
Leftist identity politics is hardly about equality any more - it is about special treatment for groups defined as oppressed, with a group that ranks higher on the oppression ladder trumping the group lower on the ladder (so while, say, gays trump Christians, women trump gays, and Muslims trump women). And if anyone preaches naked racism, it's racial supremacist groups such as Black Lives Matter.
Marty's march to the right continues unabated; he should just be careful who he ends up in lockstep with.
I guess I always thought that Eastern European left is so inept in getting any political influence after 1989 because it does not have the experience of the Western left - it turns out Western Europeans are just more naive.
Quote from: mongers on April 09, 2016, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2016, 02:49:10 AM
Leftist identity politics is hardly about equality any more - it is about special treatment for groups defined as oppressed, with a group that ranks higher on the oppression ladder trumping the group lower on the ladder (so while, say, gays trump Christians, women trump gays, and Muslims trump women). And if anyone preaches naked racism, it's racial supremacist groups such as Black Lives Matter.
Marty's march to the right continues unabated; he should just be careful who he ends up in lockstep with.
I guess the Western left has lost its way. It used to be about the ideals of the Enlightenment but now it rejects some of its greatest historical heroes and instead embraces exotic multi-culti mumbo-jumbo. I guess it's time to switch allegiances.
Quote from: mongers on April 09, 2016, 09:16:41 AM
Marty's march to the right continues unabated; he should just be careful who he ends up in lockstep with.
Several reptilian species are known to change color in order to throw off possible predators and blend into hostile surroundings.
Quote from: mongers on April 09, 2016, 09:16:41 AM
Marty's march to the right continues unabated; he should just be careful who he ends up in lockstep with.
I'm not sure it is a march to the right. I've long held that the variety of positions taken on social issues can't be shoehorned into a linear scale. There are at least three schools of thought found along the edges of that framework- libertarianism, conservatism, and paternalistic egalitarianism. Though people on the right-wing are usually conservative and people on the left-wing usually egalitarian, it would be wrong to conclude the libertarian's beliefs fall between them. It is more like a triangle than a line.
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2016, 09:24:42 AM
Quote from: mongers on April 09, 2016, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2016, 02:49:10 AM
Leftist identity politics is hardly about equality any more - it is about special treatment for groups defined as oppressed, with a group that ranks higher on the oppression ladder trumping the group lower on the ladder (so while, say, gays trump Christians, women trump gays, and Muslims trump women). And if anyone preaches naked racism, it's racial supremacist groups such as Black Lives Matter.
Marty's march to the right continues unabated; he should just be careful who he ends up in lockstep with.
I guess the Western left has lost its way. It used to be about the ideals of the Enlightenment but now it rejects some of its greatest historical heroes and instead embraces exotic multi-culti mumbo-jumbo. I guess it's time to switch allegiances.
There's a semi-thriving alt-left that is skeptical of the cultural turn and wants to keep the focus on material conditions. Check out Matt Bruenig, Fredrik deBoer, and (to a degree) Jacobin.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 09, 2016, 09:51:21 AM
There are at least three schools of thought found along the edges of that framework- libertarianism, conservatism, and paternalistic egalitarianism. Though people on the right-wing are usually conservative and people on the left-wing usually egalitarian, it would be wrong to conclude the libertarian's beliefs fall between them. It is more like a triangle than a line.
Anarchists hate your triangle. :P
I'm open to the existence of further independent axes, but no matter how many get added, anarchists will fall through the cracks.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 09, 2016, 09:51:21 AM
Quote from: mongers on April 09, 2016, 09:16:41 AM
Marty's march to the right continues unabated; he should just be careful who he ends up in lockstep with.
I'm not sure it is a march to the right. I've long held that the variety of positions taken on social issues can't be shoehorned into a linear scale. There are at least three schools of thought found along the edges of that framework- libertarianism, conservatism, and paternalistic egalitarianism. Though people on the right-wing are usually conservative and people on the left-wing usually egalitarian, it would be wrong to conclude the libertarian's beliefs fall between them. It is more like a triangle than a line.
Yup, and I have always held very "classic liberal"/"libertarian" views, though focusing more on cultural and social issues than the economic ones (the view that sadly has always been in a minority). Until recently (and I guess it is still the case in culturally backward countries like Poland), Christian religious conservatives had posed the greatest threat to these ideals and the left was an ally in this war - but at least in the West Christian conservatives have lost the cultural war and are in a total retreat. Instead, two new threats to these ideas emerged - on one hand the paternalistic/authoritarian progressives that want to control speech and expression and on the other non-Christian religious conservatives, especially Muslim ones (the both of groups forming some sort of unholy alliance which boggles mind and belies any logic). So it's about time to switch the alliance.
Apparently the movement is about cats and monarchy. :hmm:
http://www.vox.com/2016/4/18/11434098/alt-right-explained
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQamL62c.jpg&hash=065acdf7a2bca1d9ac0502a1611dda46537b9d40)