Russia urges deescalation, Turkey offers Az a blank check. :o
Azerbaijan has built up a much larger military since the last war, but Russia has closer ties to Armenia, and their military support could easily be decisive.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35953916 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35953916)
Quote
Azerbaijan has announced a "unilateral ceasefire" in fighting with Armenian forces over the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region.
A defence ministry spokesman said the Azeris were acting in response to international calls to halt violence.
But the Armenia-backed Karabakh forces said this was false and Azerbaijan was continuing to fire shells.
Nagorno-Karabakh has been in the hands of ethnic-Armenian separatists since a war that ended in 1994.
Fighting had continued into Sunday, after clashes left 30 soldiers dead and caused civilian casualties.
"Azerbaijan, showing good will, has decided to unilaterally cease hostilities," the Azeri defence ministry said in a statement.
It warned it would strike back if its forces came under attack.
But David Babayan, a Karabakh military spokesman, told AFP news agency that fighting had not stopped.
"Fierce fighting is under way on south-eastern and north-eastern sectors of the Karabakh frontline," he said.
Another spokesman, Senor Hasratyan, was quoted by Armenian media as saying Azeri forces were using Grad missiles and heavy artillery to shell the northern Karabakh area of Martakert.
Other reports from Armenia said two Karabakh soldiers had been injured in the fighting.
An image from footage obtained from the Nagorno-Karabakh defence authorities' official website reportedly shows houses damaged in the fighting.
Earlier, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan had said he backed Azerbaijan "to the end" in the clashes.
Turkey has close ties to Baku but does not have relations with Armenia because of the dispute over mass killings of Armenians during the Ottoman era, which Armenia says was a genocide. Turkey staunchly denies this.
On Saturday Armenia said 18 ethnic-Armenian troops had died, while Azerbaijan said it had lost 12 troops. The Karabakh defence ministry said a 12-year-old boy had been killed and two other children injured.
Each side blamed the other for breaking the ceasefire. Azerbaijan said its forces had taken over two strategic hills and a village but lost a helicopter.
Armenia's government said Azerbaijan had launched a "massive attack" with tanks, artillery and helicopters.
The BBC's Reyhan Demytrie in Tbilisi says there have long been fears that hostilities between the two nations, which are highly militarised and possess sophisticated weaponry, could spiral out of control.
Two ethnic Armenian boys were injured in Saturday's shelling, the authorities say.
Mr Erdogan also criticised the Minsk Group - a body under the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), chaired by the US, Russia and France and tasked with resolving the conflict.
He said it had "underestimated" the situation.
"If the Minsk Group had taken fair and decisive steps over this, such incidents would not have happened. However, the weaknesses of the Minsk Group unfortunately led the situation to this point," he told an Azeri reporter during his trip to the US, the presidency said.
The fighting prompted a rush of potential Armenian recruits to Nagorno-Karabakh's military
Fighting between the two sides began in the late 1980s and escalated into full-scale war in 1991 as the Soviet Union collapsed, killing about 30,000 people before a ceasefire in 1994.
The region, which lies inside Azerbaijan but is controlled by ethnic Armenians, has since run its own affairs with Armenian military and financial backing, but clashes break out on a regular basis.
BBC Azeri's Konul Khalilova says leaders on both sides have been blamed for stoking the conflict to stay in power rather than seeking peace.
Agnostic Muslims? :unsure:
Quote from: Monoriu on April 03, 2016, 08:20:15 AM
Agnostic Muslims? :unsure:
Azeris love their vodka more than Allah loved Mohammed. ;) Once, in Marneuli, I visited the home of a very religious Azeri man--a bit of an oddity in the community. With unrestrained pride, he pointed out the enormous Quran displayed on his mantelpiece. It was upside-down.
Fucking sub-Turkish sacks of shit.
Armenia has been sliding out of Russian influence during the past year. This is clearly a tool to bring them back.
Not really. Yerevan is closer to Moscow than Baku.
I don't see how this contradicts what I said. :huh:
Why would Baku be doing Moscow's bidding by invading an ally of Moscow?
Who says they are doing it knowingly?
Quote from: Queequeg on April 03, 2016, 09:19:42 AM
Fucking sub-Turkish sacks of shit.
Your idiosyncratic racism is bizarre and unbecoming Spellus.
I have found it curious, when I get cultural union with Ottomans at 1000 development, the only accepted culture I pick up that I actually have is Azeri. And they only have like 3 provinces. /shrug
Armenia? That's a real place? :huh:
Quote from: Norgy on April 03, 2016, 05:58:12 PM
Armenia? That's a real place? :huh:
It dominates the southern isthmus of Handia and to it's North lies Shouldistan.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 03, 2016, 11:19:05 AM
Who says they are doing it knowingly?
Restate your argument, what you are saying makes no sense.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2016, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 03, 2016, 11:19:05 AM
Who says they are doing it knowingly?
Restate your argument, what you are saying makes no sense.
Nagorno-Karabakh violence starts up. Russia is likely to have had a hand in it in order to force Armenia to fall firmly into its lap once again, after last year's tensions.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 04, 2016, 04:22:03 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2016, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 03, 2016, 11:19:05 AM
Who says they are doing it knowingly?
Restate your argument, what you are saying makes no sense.
Nagorno-Karabakh violence starts up. Russia is likely to have had a hand in it in order to force Armenia to fall firmly into its lap once again, after last year's tensions.
You silly Baltic people seeing Russia's hand in everything. I can assure you those countries are perfectly capable of fucking up entirely on their own.
Quote from: mongers on April 03, 2016, 06:57:23 PM
Quote from: Norgy on April 03, 2016, 05:58:12 PM
Armenia? That's a real place? :huh:
It dominates the southern isthmus of Handia and to it's North lies Shouldistan.
I have been to Shouldistan several times. Never remembered why.
Quote from: Tamas on April 04, 2016, 04:52:03 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 04, 2016, 04:22:03 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2016, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 03, 2016, 11:19:05 AM
Who says they are doing it knowingly?
Restate your argument, what you are saying makes no sense.
Nagorno-Karabakh violence starts up. Russia is likely to have had a hand in it in order to force Armenia to fall firmly into its lap once again, after last year's tensions.
You silly Baltic people seeing Russia's hand in everything. I can assure you those countries are perfectly capable of fucking up entirely on their own.
I'm more Russian than Baltic. :contract:
I continue to support Azerbaijan. Armenians were the good guys in the 90s, but not any longer.
Retard fight.
Rose Kennedy vs Siege!!!
Is she still alive? :huh:
Quote from: Solmyr on April 04, 2016, 04:22:03 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2016, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 03, 2016, 11:19:05 AM
Who says they are doing it knowingly?
Restate your argument, what you are saying makes no sense.
Nagorno-Karabakh violence starts up. Russia is likely to have had a hand in it in order to force Armenia to fall firmly into its lap once again, after last year's tensions.
I have an alternate theory: These people don't like each other and sometimes fight. If I were to suggest an outside influence it would be Turkey rather than Russia.
Quote from: derspiess on April 04, 2016, 12:36:39 PM
I continue to support Azerbaijan. Armenians were the good guys in the 90s, but not any longer.
The area is ethnically Armenian and has been since the Turks were drinking horseblood in western Mongolia. It's been Armenian longer than Yerevan, which had a Muslim majority before the Russians.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 03, 2016, 05:03:57 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 03, 2016, 09:19:42 AM
Fucking sub-Turkish sacks of shit.
Your idiosyncratic racism is bizarre and unbecoming Spellus.
They've got no culture, no education, nothing to their Nationalist pride but reheated Kemalist nazi myths. They've cut themselves off from Iran and their economy is based entirely on oil.
I remember some years ago a discussion online about nagarano karabakh. I suggested azerbaijan should let them have a referendum if they want.
Jesus christ the Turks didn't like that. They were screaming about how I had some sort of pro indo European bias. Trying every trick in the book to show the Azerbaijanis to be the good guys.
I wonder how common this pan turkic nationalist idiocy is
Silly Tyr. Democratic referendums are only for Sunnis and Turks. Otherwise they are evil gavur plots.
Kosov-Good
NK-Bad! Very bad! We fuck you Armenians!
The problem with that idea is that the Azeri population was ethnically cleansed from N-K during the last war, so a referendum voted on by the remaining population wouldn't be that legitimate. And trying to let the Azeri refugees participate would make the result vulnerable to manipulation by Baku.
Here's a great live map of the conflict: http://caucasus.liveuamap.com/ (http://caucasus.liveuamap.com/)
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 05, 2016, 05:14:55 AM
The problem with that idea is that the Azeri population was ethnically cleansed from N-K during the last war, so a referendum voted on by the remaining population wouldn't be that legitimate. And trying to let the Azeri refugees participate would make the result vulnerable to manipulation by Baku.
Here's a great live map of the conflict: http://caucasus.liveuamap.com/ (http://caucasus.liveuamap.com/)
The Azeris were only 20% though.
I'd think any referendum would need to be under international auspices to make sure the Armenians aren't cheating either. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to let Azerbaijanis who were living there before hand vote- if more than 40,000 Azeris report in then we know there's something fishy up. Set somesort of limit of 50,000 or 60,000 non-resident voters (to take into account that these Azeri families will have had kids).
Overall the important part of the referendum is what the local Armenians want. Since if they vote 90% for independence from Azerbaijan then even 100% Azerbaijanis voting against it won't change anything.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 05, 2016, 12:21:30 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 04, 2016, 12:36:39 PM
I continue to support Azerbaijan. Armenians were the good guys in the 90s, but not any longer.
The area is ethnically Armenian and has been since the Turks were drinking horseblood in western Mongolia. It's been Armenian longer than Yerevan, which had a Muslim majority before the Russians.
But Armenians are pro-Putin.
Quote from: derspiess on April 05, 2016, 01:54:00 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 05, 2016, 12:21:30 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 04, 2016, 12:36:39 PM
I continue to support Azerbaijan. Armenians were the good guys in the 90s, but not any longer.
The area is ethnically Armenian and has been since the Turks were drinking horseblood in western Mongolia. It's been Armenian longer than Yerevan, which had a Muslim majority before the Russians.
But Armenians are pro-Putin.
Do they have a choice? Turkey is the natural ally of Azerbaijan, they are fellow Turks and Muslims after all. Armenia is the poor shitty country between them. Not sure how they have any hope to hang onto Nagorno-Karabakh without Russian support.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 05, 2016, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 05, 2016, 01:54:00 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 05, 2016, 12:21:30 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 04, 2016, 12:36:39 PM
I continue to support Azerbaijan. Armenians were the good guys in the 90s, but not any longer.
The area is ethnically Armenian and has been since the Turks were drinking horseblood in western Mongolia. It's been Armenian longer than Yerevan, which had a Muslim majority before the Russians.
But Armenians are pro-Putin.
Do they have a choice?
not really given the turkish propensity of genociding christians in the area.
At least we know who are REALLY at fault here!
https://www.facebook.com/Ancientarmeniaball/photos/a.1631969467076334.1073741830.1618204118452869/1697358750537405/?type=3&theater
I should not have commented.
I can think of no two people who have more in common than Israelis and Armenians but apparently they're not immune from ex-USSR antisemitic bullshit.
https://www.facebook.com/turkeyball/photos/a.590468514303632.154198.590466367637180/1336978066319336/?type=3&theater
I think this is much, much worse though. I'm fucking done with these despicable people and their worthless culture.
Quote from: Tamas on April 06, 2016, 04:21:09 AM
At least we know who are REALLY at fault here!
https://www.facebook.com/Ancientarmeniaball/photos/a.1631969467076334.1073741830.1618204118452869/1697358750537405/?type=3&theater
I was going to suggest Global Warming. Or the lack of green jobs in the region.
Quote from: derspiess on April 06, 2016, 10:38:58 AM
I was going to suggest Global Warming. Or the lack of green jobs in the region.
Why not all three?
Spellus is right though. Nagorno-Karabakh should be part of Armenia... it pretty much already is anyway, in all but fact.
Quote from: Caliga on April 06, 2016, 12:20:17 PM
Spellus is right though. Nagorno-Karabakh should be part of Armenia... it pretty much already is anyway, in all but fact.
It is kind of weird how the Soviets invented boundaries between their republics and those became the basis for new national boundaries. Even some of the countries are more or less made up. It isn't obvious there would be 5 post soviet -stan countries or say Belarus. The boundaries in the Caucasus were actually drawn to promote conflict - mission accomplished bolsheviks!
Should have left it all under the control of the Ottomans. :yes:
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on April 06, 2016, 12:48:09 PM
Should have left it all under the control of the Ottomans. :yes:
Who should have? The Russians? Why? They are getting what they wanted.
Yesterday's ceasefire is holding for now--sort of. Both sides are accusing the other of violating it (hundreds of times) and there's apparently intermittent shelling.
Here's a map of the fighting:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FCfYWEfTWQAQ8Oz7.jpg&hash=9534d2041a7e8bd644fae89c747343b8265c30fd)
And a completely ridiculous terrain map:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmaps.maphill.com%2Fazerbaijan%2Fnagorno-karabakh%2Fpanoramic-maps%2Fphysical-map%2Fcropped-outside%2Fphysical-panoramic-map-of-nagorno-karabakh-cropped-outside.jpg&hash=f53782799c097a82103b642fcb741b0e3dc74ddc)
I don't think Russia (or Turkey) is behind this. Azerbaijan seems to have started this one, but their goal doesn't seem to be to actually retake Karabakh. Maybe, given the low prices of oil and natural gas, Aliyev saw trouble on the horizon and decided to stoke nationalism.
Maybe Azeris are perceiving that there is more will for Turkey to get involved than there is a will for Putin to get involved, and is striking while the iron is hot. The problem with all those frozen conflicts is that they're just waiting with bated breath for geopolitical situation to change so that they can unfreeze.
Quote from: DGuller on April 06, 2016, 05:58:41 PM
Maybe Azeris are perceiving that there is more will for Turkey to get involved than there is a will for Putin to get involved, and is striking while the iron is hot.
I hope he's wrong. I will forgive Putin everything if he gets involved and makes Greater Armenia and an independent Kurdistan a reality.
As someone who lives in a large American city, I would prefer it if Russia did not invade a NATO ally.
Okay now I'm 100% with the Azeris.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/06/azerbaijan-blasts-kim-kardashian/
Btw what's with everyone saying Azeris now? In the 90s it was all Azerbaijanis.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 07, 2016, 11:12:53 AM
As someone who lives in a large American city, I would prefer it if Russia did not invade a NATO ally.
Azerbaidjan isn't in NATO.
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2016, 12:52:26 PM
Btw what's with everyone saying Azeris now? In the 90s it was all Azerbaijanis.
It's always been Azeris, as far as I know. Kinda like Tajiks rather than Tajikistanis.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 06, 2016, 05:58:31 AM
https://www.facebook.com/turkeyball/photos/a.590468514303632.154198.590466367637180/1336978066319336/?type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/turkeyball/photos/a.590468514303632.154198.590466367637180/1336978066319336/?type=3&theater)
I think this is much, much worse though. I'm fucking done with these despicable people and their worthless culture.
Okay, I got a question. How come you never learned Armenian. You learned Turkish, but not Armenian You always seem to champion Armenia on this board.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2016, 10:55:54 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 06, 2016, 05:58:41 PM
Maybe Azeris are perceiving that there is more will for Turkey to get involved than there is a will for Putin to get involved, and is striking while the iron is hot.
I hope he's wrong. I will forgive Putin everything if he gets involved and makes Greater Armenia and an independent Kurdistan a reality.
:hmm: What an appropriate title you have there.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 07, 2016, 01:00:48 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 07, 2016, 11:12:53 AM
As someone who lives in a large American city, I would prefer it if Russia did not invade a NATO ally.
Azerbaidjan isn't in NATO.
Turkey is.
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2016, 12:52:26 PM
Btw what's with everyone saying Azeris now? In the 90s it was all Azerbaijanis.
Azeri is (I believe) the ethnonym, while Azerbaijani refers to citizenship. So there are plenty of Azeris in Iran, but the only Azerbaijanis are tourists.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 07, 2016, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 06, 2016, 05:58:31 AM
https://www.facebook.com/turkeyball/photos/a.590468514303632.154198.590466367637180/1336978066319336/?type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/turkeyball/photos/a.590468514303632.154198.590466367637180/1336978066319336/?type=3&theater)
I think this is much, much worse though. I'm fucking done with these despicable people and their worthless culture.
Okay, I got a question. How come you never learned Armenian. You learned Turkish, but not Armenian You always seem to champion Armenia on this board.
Jobs.
Research.
It's a much more important language until the Republic finally collapses like the rotting, hateful edifice it is and Armenia is restored to its natural boundaries.
Turkey broke me heart. When I was 14 I hated Turkey because I liked Armenia and Greece. Now I hate Turkey independently and still love Greece and Armenia.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 07, 2016, 04:35:42 PM
Azeri is (I believe) the ethnonym, while Azerbaijani refers to citizenship. So there are plenty of Azeris in Iran, but the only Azerbaijanis are tourists.
Right. I just have memories of hearing "Azerbaijanis" over and over on CNN during the 90s and now the press is holding themselves to saying "Azeris".
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2016, 07:52:16 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 07, 2016, 04:35:42 PM
Azeri is (I believe) the ethnonym, while Azerbaijani refers to citizenship. So there are plenty of Azeris in Iran, but the only Azerbaijanis are tourists.
Right. I just have memories of hearing "Azerbaijanis" over and over on CNN during the 90s and now the press is holding themselves to saying "Azeris".
The big news companies are always trying to sound more worldly and filled with Gravitas so they like to do those kinds of try-hard things all the time. Like how the 'Turin' Olympics was suddenly 'Torino' back in 2006. Oh so sophisticated and Italian you are big news.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 07, 2016, 04:47:05 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 07, 2016, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 06, 2016, 05:58:31 AM
https://www.facebook.com/turkeyball/photos/a.590468514303632.154198.590466367637180/1336978066319336/?type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/turkeyball/photos/a.590468514303632.154198.590466367637180/1336978066319336/?type=3&theater)
I think this is much, much worse though. I'm fucking done with these despicable people and their worthless culture.
Okay, I got a question. How come you never learned Armenian. You learned Turkish, but not Armenian You always seem to champion Armenia on this board.
Jobs.
Research.
It's a much more important language until the Republic finally collapses like the rotting, hateful edifice it is and Armenia is restored to its natural boundaries.
I think the main difference between you and Lettow is that your were born like 400 miles apart.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 07, 2016, 04:35:42 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on April 07, 2016, 01:00:48 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on April 07, 2016, 11:12:53 AM
As someone who lives in a large American city, I would prefer it if Russia did not invade a NATO ally.
Azerbaidjan isn't in NATO.
Turkey is.
And Turkey would be acting on it's own, outside NATO context, to do it's evil deads.
(There's unlikely to be people willing to spill european blood for Turkey after what Erdogan pulled the last few years. He burnt some bridges, though he might not realise it yet. Assuming he cares)