http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/snp-will-block-tory-plans-to-change-sunday-trading-laws#.dr8A0PXBy
QuoteGovernment plans to relax Sunday trading laws are heading for defeat after SNP MPs revealed they plan to vote against them.
The plans, which would allow local councils in England and Wales to decide when shops can open and close on Sundays, are being opposed by Labour and a rebel group of around 20 Conservative MPs, which means SNP votes could prove decisive.
The SNP said that, although the law would affect England and Wales only, it would have a knock-on effect on wages in Scotland. Currently, large shops and supermarkets in England are only allowed to be open for six hours on Sundays, whereas shops in Scotland can open at any time.
Angus Robertson, the SNP's Westminster leader, told the BBC that the party's 55 MPs will vote against the relaxation of Sunday trading laws to protect shop workers.
"SNP MPs could hold the balance of power in the House of Commons on Sunday shopping and we will not undermine shop workers," said Robertson. "This legislation will impact on workers in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK and no pay safeguards have been offered by the Westminster government.
"The SNP will continue to work with the representatives of shop workers and we will oppose the Tory proposals."
The SNP having the decisive say on the plans would call into question the effectiveness of the new English votes for English laws procedures, which were introduced last month to prevent Scottish MPs from derailing legislation which didn't directly affect Scotland.
SNP MPs blocking Sunday trading laws would follow their intervention on the relaxation of fox-hunting laws in July, which caused the government debate on the issue to be postponed.
The rebel Tory MPs who are against the Sunday trading laws, led by David Burrowes, have argued that the changes to Sunday trading were not in the Conservative manifesto and have said the proposals are "anti-family, anti-small business, and anti-workers".
Burrowes said he welcomed the SNP intervention: "The government is set to embark on a de-regulation of Sunday trading for which there is no particular demand, which was not in our manifesto and goes against our concerns for workers for small businesses and families.
"Some 20 of my colleagues are opposed to these changes and that is more than enough to overcome the government's majority now the SNP have joined the opposition."
Ministers are now reported to be considering whether to delay the Sunday trading vote or scrap it altogether.
UPDATE: The BBC's James Landale reports that the debate is "on hold" after the SNP announced it was opposed to the changes.
<_<
That independence movement has gone too far. Getting between me and my opportunity to get my late night Sunday grocery shop on. :angry:
Quaint.
This is a deeply cynical move by Snip. Kick the wankers out of your country now.
It ain't garbon's country. :contract:
On a different note, any Brits know what families are expected to be doing on Sunday after 5pm? :unsure:
Quote from: garbon on November 10, 2015, 08:09:29 PM
On a different note, any Brits know what families are expected to be doing on Sunday after 5pm? :unsure:
It's a secret; you only find out after 7 2/3 years of residency here. :bowler:
They all get together and drink tea and sing praises to the monarchy I presume.
Quote from: Valmy on November 10, 2015, 10:14:28 PM
They all get together and drink tea and sing praises to the monarchy I presume.
Don't forget fox hunting.
Then a soccer riot.
In Poland, a deeply religious country, malls are open until 9 pm on Sundays. :yeah:
Quote from: garbon on November 10, 2015, 08:09:29 PM
On a different note, any Brits know what families are expected to be doing on Sunday after 5pm? :unsure:
Watch Antiques Roadshow.
Have to say I have no problems getting groceries any day of the week. My local convenience supermarkets are open until at least 10 p.m. every day and the ethnic places longer.
Here, supermarkets close between 7 and 8 pm during the week, and 6 pm on Saturdays. Pretty much everything is closed on Sundays (except for a few supermarkets at train stations and some Turkish grocery stores).
There's occasional attempts to introduce longer opening hours, or opening on Sundays, but it's usually shot down by unions and church. I think there'll be an exemption for tourist areas in Vienna some time soon, but I don't recall the details.
Quote from: Gups on November 11, 2015, 03:06:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 10, 2015, 08:09:29 PM
On a different note, any Brits know what families are expected to be doing on Sunday after 5pm? :unsure:
Watch Antiques Roadshow.
Have to say I have no problems getting groceries any day of the week. My local convenience supermarkets are open until at least 10 p.m. every day and the ethnic places longer.
I'm assuming you are talking about those random, often unnamed places that in New York I'd refer to as Bodegas (as opposed to the local versions of the chain supermarkets). I am not a fan of buying food from them.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 10, 2015, 10:20:27 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 10, 2015, 10:14:28 PM
They all get together and drink tea and sing praises to the monarchy I presume.
Don't forget fox hunting.
The earlier intervention by the SNP this year as to block attempts to relax fox hunting bans.
Do I understand that correctly? Is the SNP blocking rules for the rest of England that already apply in Scotland?
Quote from: celedhring on November 11, 2015, 03:30:40 AM
Do I understand that correctly? Is the SNP blocking rules for the rest of England that already apply in Scotland?
Yes. Here's what the Guardian had to say.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/09/snp-set-to-block-loosening-of-sunday-trading-restrictions
QuoteSNP set to block loosening of Sunday trading restrictions
Scottish nationalists believe longer trading hours in England and Wales will drive down wage premium enjoyed by Scottish workers
The government is facing defeat over its plans to liberalise Sunday trading laws in England and Wales after the SNP decided to vote against the measure.
The SNP, which rarely votes on matters at Westminster that are unrelated to Scotland, has decided to oppose the reforms on the grounds that they could drive down the wages of Scottish workers who enjoy a special Sunday premium.
The shopworkers' union Usdaw has persuaded the SNP that normalising Sunday trading hours in England and Wales would prompt large retailers to set a lower wage for workers across the UK.
Angus Robertson, the SNP's Westminster leader, said: "SNP MPs could hold the balance of power in the House of Commons on Sunday shopping and we will not undermine shop workers. This legislation will impact on workers in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK and no pay safeguards have been offered by the Westminster government. The SNP will continue to work with the representatives of shop workers and we will oppose the Tory proposals."
Sajid Javid, the business secretary, who has been charged with implementing the reforms first outlined by George Osborne in his July budget, is understood to be examining whether the Tories now have the parliamentary numbers to win the vote. The Tory leadership, which has an effective parliamentary majority of 17, is expecting a rebellion by some of its MPs who support the Keep Sunday Special campaign on religious grounds.
The SNP showed its parliamentary strength in tight votes when it announced in July that it would oppose government plans to relax the foxhunting ban in England and Wales. The government was forced to withdraw the plan.
The decision by the SNP to oppose the change to Sunday trading laws is likely to irritate the chancellor, who announced in July that the government would give mayors the power to regulate Sunday trading in their areas.
Brandon Lewis, the communities minister, and Anna Soubry, the business minister, launched a consultation the following month on whether to give councils the right to zone areas that would be free from restricted trading hours.
The current law prevents shops that cover more than 3,000 sq ft from opening for more than six hours on a Sunday. Proponents of reform say allowing department stores, supermarkets and garden centres to open for longer would rejuvenate high streets. Convenience stores are not subject to the six-hour rule.
The SNP's decision is likely to be criticised by the government, which will argue that it has recently introduced the principle of English votes for English laws, known as Evel. But the SNP will argue that the enterprise bill and the cities and local devolution government bill – one of which is due to be amended to implement the reforms – were both introduced to parliament before the Evel changes.
The SNP will also argue that the bill is an example of where Evel is unfair to voters in Scotland. The Sunday trading reform vote may be designated by the Speaker, John Bercow, as a matter relating only to England and Wales. But nationalists will say that the reforms will have an impact in Scotland by potentially driving down wages.
The Sunday Trading Act, which permitted restricted opening hours on a Sunday, never applied to Scotland, where there has traditionally been a more liberalised environment. But Scottish workers are guaranteed a wage premium for working on Sundays.
The SNP fears that allowing local councils to open trading laws in England and Wales could wipe out the Scottish wage premium if the large retailers set a UK-wide wage.
The SNP are trying to provoke a backlash by the English; after all, one way of getting Scottish independence is for England to tire of the union. Having said that the Tories do have a majority, so it is really a matter of internal party discipline rather than a Scottish problem.
If Snip recused themselves, would the Tories - 20 be a majority?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 11, 2015, 03:51:10 AM
If Snip recused themselves, would the Tories - 20 be a majority?
Yes, easily. There are 56 SNP MPs, they swept the board in the election (consequence of first-past-the-post).
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 11, 2015, 04:16:06 AM
Yes, easily. There are 56 SNP MPs, they swept the board in the election (consequence of first-past-the-post).
Then IMO it is very much a Scottish problem.
BTW, I think this incident is demonstrating the value of an unwritten constitution: we agree to resolve our disagreements by these rules, except for the times when we don't.
Clearly a cynical move by the SNP.
Justifying the move, the Westminster SNP leader Angus Robertson was calmly taken apart on the Today programme yesterday morning. He was clearly repeating a talking point verbatim and between its stilted delivery and utterly spurious logic, he came across as a bit hopeless. Sometimes it really is the best tactic for an interviewer to just let the interviewee hang himself.
The "but there might be second-order effects on Scotland" argument is worthless because it could be applied to absolutely anything; you could stretch it, for example, to justify voting against an extra public holiday in England and Wales because it might tempt workers to take jobs south of the border.
The whole argument is silly. If, say, neighboring regions lower their taxes, it does affect the Catalan economy and certainly I don't get to vote on that. That's how devolution is supposed to work, you know, the kind of thing SNP is supposed to support.
Cynical sells it short, imho.
They are a cynical bunch, I keep on expecting more Scots to see through SNP rhetoric but so far their support seems unwavering.
Quote from: Warspite on November 11, 2015, 08:41:31 AM
The "but there might be second-order effects on Scotland" argument is worthless because it could be applied to absolutely anything; you could stretch it, for example, to justify voting against an extra public holiday in England and Wales because it might tempt workers to take jobs south of the border.
"Second-order effects" is the bread-and-butter of Commerce Clause (ab)use in the US, so I expect it will gain legs in Blighty as well.
Despite Switzerland generally being a liberal hell hole, nothing is open on Sunday here.
I miss Sunday.
I'd back extending opening hours on Sunday in England but only if there are adequate time and a half provisions. I remember getting that on my first year of supermarket work then it was taken <_<
Countries that don't let the market decide opening hours are weird.
Quote from: celedhring on November 11, 2015, 08:52:18 AM
The whole argument is silly. If, say, neighboring regions lower their taxes, it does affect the Catalan economy and certainly I don't get to vote on that. That's how devolution is supposed to work, you know, the kind of thing SNP is supposed to support.
Cynical sells it short, imho.
but britain doesn't have a proper devolution. No proper english parliament (anymore) to vote on english things.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 11, 2015, 11:36:33 AM
They are a cynical bunch, I keep on expecting more Scots to see through SNP rhetoric but so far their support seems unwavering.
Still time until the next election.
Quote from: Tyr on November 11, 2015, 12:03:20 PM
Despite Switzerland generally being a liberal hell hole, nothing is open on Sunday here.
I miss Sunday.
I'd back extending opening hours on Sunday in England but only if there are adequate time and a half provisions. I remember getting that on my first year of supermarket work then it was taken <_<
I always read Tyr's posts in my head in an Eeyore voice.
Yeah, it's the West Lothian question all over again.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 11, 2015, 12:41:13 PM
Quote from: celedhring on November 11, 2015, 08:52:18 AM
The whole argument is silly. If, say, neighboring regions lower their taxes, it does affect the Catalan economy and certainly I don't get to vote on that. That's how devolution is supposed to work, you know, the kind of thing SNP is supposed to support.
Cynical sells it short, imho.
but britain doesn't have a proper devolution. No proper english parliament (anymore) to vote on english things.
The population breakdown is like this :
England 53m
Scotland just over 5m
Wales 3m
Northern Ireland 1.8m
So the risk is that any English parliament would rapidly become completely dominant.
There can never be an English parliament, it's a ridiculous idea that would do far more harm than good
Quote from: garbon on November 11, 2015, 03:14:05 AM
Quote from: Gups on November 11, 2015, 03:06:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 10, 2015, 08:09:29 PM
On a different note, any Brits know what families are expected to be doing on Sunday after 5pm? :unsure:
Watch Antiques Roadshow.
Have to say I have no problems getting groceries any day of the week. My local convenience supermarkets are open until at least 10 p.m. every day and the ethnic places longer.
I'm assuming you are talking about those random, often unnamed places that in New York I'd refer to as Bodegas (as opposed to the local versions of the chain supermarkets). I am not a fan of buying food from them.
Nope. I have a Sainsbury's, a Tescos and a Co-Op nearby. They are all open 7 a.m. to 11 p.m every day including Sundays.
But I'll go to the unnamed, random places if I have time. Quality is better, price is lower.
I'm wondering if it is related to a size of store thing as my colleague noted that hers is open late too. My Tesco Metro is only open 12-6 on Sunday.
I completely disagree with your latter bit. The rando places where I am have shit quality and prices are a little bit more expensive.
Quote from: Tyr on November 11, 2015, 12:03:20 PM
I'd back extending opening hours on Sunday in England but only if there are adequate time and a half provisions. I remember getting that on my first year of supermarket work then it was taken <_<
I don't see why there should be time and a half for Sunday. It is just another day of the week. It isn't like most British people are lining up to go to church and this would prevent attendance.
It was double-time at a lot of employers back when I was a lad :cool:
Competition to get Sunday overtime was fairly strong though, so that was probably overpaying.
Saturday and Sunday are not just normal days for everyone though, if you have children at school or play in a local football league or whatever then you want those days off.
I would say that Saturday is the prime retail shopping day. :huh:
Oh I'd certainly agree that if we are talking purely about retail then working Saturdays comes with the territory.
Quote from: garbon on November 12, 2015, 05:26:06 AM
I'm wondering if it is related to a size of store thing as my colleague noted that hers is open late too. My Tesco Metro is only open 12-6 on Sunday.
I completely disagree with your latter bit. The rando places where I am have shit quality and prices are a little bit more expensive.
Sunday trading laws apply differently to differently sized shops, yes. So superstores can't be open after 1700 on a Sunday.
My Tesco Metro is pretty small. :P
Maybe, as with the many churches of Angel, no one actually wants to grocery shop until 12pm. Church or hungover...:hmm:
Quote from: garbon on November 12, 2015, 05:30:01 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 11, 2015, 12:03:20 PM
I'd back extending opening hours on Sunday in England but only if there are adequate time and a half provisions. I remember getting that on my first year of supermarket work then it was taken <_<
I don't see why there should be time and a half for Sunday. It is just another day of the week. It isn't like most British people are lining up to go to church and this would prevent attendance.
After my months of hell where I was forced to work every Saturday and sunday- it really isn't just another day of the week.
Having Wednesday off is no substitute for missing the weekend.
Is it important enough to use the force of law to make it happen?
Normally, I'm fairly interventionist, but it just doesn't make sense to me here.