Just curious - because at least in legal profession (which is probably something they don't tell many law students), once you get to a certain point, you are expected to be involved more and more in promoting, marketing, developing business and, ultimately, selling services of yours and your colleagues to clients.
I would be interested if all other lawyers in private practice feel this way and also what other jobs people here have involve this element.
Pitching is an important part of my job. You have to convince this one guy that has the keys to the kingdom that your story is compelling, that you (and only you) have the tools to make it happen, and that it will make him money. That in 15 minutes or less. Most producers can only authorize a very limited amount of projects, so you have to bullshit your way into convincing him than yours is The One.
Sadly I'm pretty terrible at it; I usually turn into a confused mumbling mess when I have to do it. Most of the spec writing gigs I've got were because somebody saw past my terrible selling skills, or I was working with another writer that was great at pitching and who did all the talking. There are pitching books, courses (I have taken one), with a bunch of tricks and techniques, etc... it's an important part of the profession.
I wonder if it has always been like this or is this a recent phenomenon.
Well, the more competition for jobs, the more important the "marketing" part of your job becomes, I guess. Lots of people want to make movies/TV, and there's a host of lawyers out there too.
In my business, producers just don't have the time (or the inclination) to go through 457456 120-page scripts to see which one is good, so they have to filter applicants beforehand, and that's how they do it. Or slaving away a few interns.
I'm not telling you about my job.
no.
no
I'm self employed, so I have to do everything from sales to administration and passing through technical work, PR and so on. It's not for everyone, I guess.
Almost every job involves 'selling' to some degree or another, whether you like it or not. :sleep:
Quote from: The Larch on February 20, 2015, 06:34:35 AM
I'm self employed, so I have to do everything from sales to administration and passing through technical work, PR and so on. It's not for everyone, I guess.
Same here.
I am a whore. I sell my services.
Quote from: Caliga on February 20, 2015, 07:35:40 AM
Almost every job involves 'selling' to some degree or another, whether you like it or not. :sleep:
That's really muddling the issue. Convincing someone inside your organisation to do something does not equal selling.
I am in government regulation of public pseudo-monopolies. So I am several degrees of separation from anybody having to market anything.
However I guess I do have to sell my skill set to my boss, my expertise to the attorneys involved, and my professional credentials to the pseudo-monopolies who may one day want to hire me so I can one day get pay raises and promotions and that sort of thing. But not sure that counts.
Quote from: Valmy on February 20, 2015, 08:12:25 AM
I am in government regulation of public pseudo-monopolies. So I am several degrees of separation from anybody having to market anything.
However I guess I do have to sell my skill set to my boss, my expertise to the attorneys involved, and my professional credentials to the pseudo-monopolies who may one day want to hire me so I can one day get pay raises and promotions and that sort of thing. But not sure that counts.
Well, that's not what I am asking for, despite Cal's "We are all whores, darling" attitude. ;)
I'm talking about a situation where you have a product or a service to offer, and you are competing in the market with other people who have a similar product or service to offer, and a part of your job is to convince a customer/client that they should pick you and not someone else.
That's not the same as simply trying to convince your boss/supervisor/CFO to allocate money to your project.
No.
I am the opposite of Marketing. I try to find what clients will do with our products & do that before we sell those products.
Quote from: Martinus on February 20, 2015, 08:14:33 AM
I'm talking about a situation where you have a product or a service to offer, and you are competing in the market with other people who have a similar product or service to offer, and a part of your job is to convince a customer/client that they should pick you and not someone else.
Technically yes, although in 90% percent of the cases convincing the client equals offering the lowest price.
Quote from: Maladict on February 20, 2015, 08:28:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 20, 2015, 08:14:33 AM
I'm talking about a situation where you have a product or a service to offer, and you are competing in the market with other people who have a similar product or service to offer, and a part of your job is to convince a customer/client that they should pick you and not someone else.
Technically yes, although in 90% percent of the cases convincing the client equals offering the lowest price.
Well, I guess I have the discomfort of working in a high end law firm when it comes to fees. So we have to compete on other things.
Quote from: Martinus on February 20, 2015, 08:35:33 AM
Quote
Technically yes, although in 90% percent of the cases convincing the client equals offering the lowest price.
Well, I guess I have the discomfort of working in a high end law firm when it comes to fees. So we have to compete on other things.
I'm used to competing on other things, but these days my clients are mainly government or government-owned.
They're legally bound to take the lowest offer, no matter how terrible the proposal. And people wonder why these projects turn into such a mess every time.
Quote from: Caliga on February 20, 2015, 07:35:40 AM
Almost every job involves 'selling' to some degree or another, whether you like it or not. :sleep:
Yup.
Quote from: Valmy on February 20, 2015, 08:12:25 AM
I am in government regulation of public pseudo-monopolies. So I am several degrees of separation from anybody having to market anything.
However I guess I do have to sell my skill set to my boss, my expertise to the attorneys involved, and my professional credentials to the pseudo-monopolies who may one day want to hire me so I can one day get pay raises and promotions and that sort of thing. But not sure that counts.
Dude, you just got hired, like, last Tuesday or something. Are you even finished with onboarding and orientation yet? Do you even have an ID badge and login?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 20, 2015, 08:51:26 AM
Dude, you just got hired, like, last Tuesday or something. Are you even finished with onboarding and orientation yet? Do you even have an ID badge and login?
Yeah they are lightning fast around here. I am now reading through huge piles of court dockets and preparing testimony :bleeding:
'Mr. Valmy, in your expert opinion would you say the expense by Southwestern Power on the new substation justifies their requested rate increase?'
'Well they did file over 800 pages of witnesses testifying it was. TL;DR I will just say yes'
Short answer: If you think your job does not involve selling, you're doing it wrong. :P
No, I only work for internal customers based on their demands. They can't "buy" these services from anybody else either.
That said, change and expectation management is a huge part of my job. That's basically "selling" a solution they don't really want. ;)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 20, 2015, 09:11:36 AM
Short answer: If you think your job does not involve selling, you're doing it wrong. :P
'Southwestern Power Company who do you want to provide your long and expensive rate hearings? Oh right we are the only choice. See you in court!'
Quote from: Zanza on February 20, 2015, 09:14:14 AM
No, I only work for internal customers based on their demands. They can't "buy" these services from anybody else either.
That said, change and expectation management is a huge part of my job. That's basically "selling" a solution they don't really want. ;)
The drawback is, if you don't get them to buy into your program, then you don't really have a successful program--it's one thing if they don't accept your services, but at a certain point they can start working against you, and at levels up the food chain where you never see coming.
Retail sales. 100% of my job is selling- 75% to the customer and 25% to management why my hours should not be reduced. Usually fairly successful on the latter when I point out that customers typically need prodding to purchase a $600 prepaid phone (Galaxy S5) or a $350 camera that syncs up with a smartphone.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 20, 2015, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: Zanza on February 20, 2015, 09:14:14 AM
No, I only work for internal customers based on their demands. They can't "buy" these services from anybody else either.
That said, change and expectation management is a huge part of my job. That's basically "selling" a solution they don't really want. ;)
The drawback is, if you don't get them to buy into your program, then you don't really have a successful program--it's one thing if they don't accept your services, but at a certain point they can start working against you, and at levels up the food chain where you never see coming.
Yes, sure. In my current situation, political bullshit is limited to management and there is a very cooperative climate on the working level, so I don't have that problem right now. If they start political bullshit, it will start on a levels above me and also hit home on the levels above me.
Quote from: Valmy on February 20, 2015, 08:57:28 AM
would you say the expense by Southwestern Power on the new substation justifies their requested rate increase?'
'Well they did file over 800 pages of witnesses testifying it was. TL;DR I will just say yes'
:lol: I feel like doing this so often.
Quote from: Martinus on February 20, 2015, 08:14:33 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 20, 2015, 08:12:25 AM
I am in government regulation of public pseudo-monopolies. So I am several degrees of separation from anybody having to market anything.
However I guess I do have to sell my skill set to my boss, my expertise to the attorneys involved, and my professional credentials to the pseudo-monopolies who may one day want to hire me so I can one day get pay raises and promotions and that sort of thing. But not sure that counts.
Well, that's not what I am asking for, despite Cal's "We are all whores, darling" attitude. ;)
I'm talking about a situation where you have a product or a service to offer, and you are competing in the market with other people who have a similar product or service to offer, and a part of your job is to convince a customer/client that they should pick you and not someone else.
That's not the same as simply trying to convince your boss/supervisor/CFO to allocate money to your project.
Strictly speaking - no. I sell nothing.
More broadly though - every single day I'm trying to convince the judge that what Im saying is right, and what the other side is saying is wrong. It's definitely a sales job of a certain type.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Martinus on February 20, 2015, 10:47:51 AM
:rolleyes:
Pretty condescending attitude for someone who profits off of nothing
but selling, like a vulture waiting for his turn at the carcass. Oh wait, it's you.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on February 20, 2015, 09:20:56 AM
Retail sales. 100% of my job is selling-
What about the cleanups on Aisle 5?
I hate selling shit. Buying, too, though nowhere near as much.
I get shit for free. Twice a day sometimes.
Everyone's job involves "selling" even if that activity is strictly related to "selling" those around you that you are the best person for that job.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 20, 2015, 11:07:23 AM
I get shit for free. Twice a day sometimes.
Government cheese, eh.
I sell death to America's enemies.
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2015, 01:06:39 PM
I sell death to America's enemies.
Missile technology?
I work in support for hospitals so there is some selling as hospitals advertise their services, doctors, and the grades they get from government and industry auditors.
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2015, 01:06:39 PM
I sell death to America's enemies.
You win the thread.
Quote from: Caliga on February 20, 2015, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2015, 01:06:39 PM
I sell death to America's enemies.
You win the thread.
It's surprising to finally see Siegy admitting to selling military secrets to the Chinese.
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2015, 11:31:30 AM
Everyone's job involves "selling" even if that activity is strictly related to "selling" those around you that you are the best person for that job.
Not really. No amount of "selling" talent will convince me that a supplier is good if they can't meet delivery deadlines, or adjust their prices. Same for any colleague. You can bullshit all you want but in a job like mine where skill directly translates into machines/money/time your image can only get you so far.
I'm ultra-junior, so no.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 20, 2015, 01:52:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2015, 11:31:30 AM
Everyone's job involves "selling" even if that activity is strictly related to "selling" those around you that you are the best person for that job.
Not really. No amount of "selling" talent will convince me that a supplier is good if they can't meet delivery deadlines, or adjust their prices. Same for any colleague.
meeting expectations is part of the sales job ;)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 20, 2015, 09:11:36 AM
Short answer: If you think your job does not involve selling, you're doing it wrong. :P
I'm so glad I'm doing it wrong.
I work in retail, so, well, or course, yes.
No matter what you do, you're selling yourself at least. If you have a job at all, it's because you were at least able to do that much.
Thanks, MiM. Ass.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 20, 2015, 06:14:12 PM
No matter what you do, you're selling yourself at least. If you have a job at all, it's because you were at least able to do that much.
Getting hired is not the job, that's getting hired.
Everybody sells, even civil servants. We all have to convince others to buy our ideas, whether the target audience is our bosses or the public.
Again, not the same thing.
I think what differentiates real selling from "selling we all do in our life yada yada yada" is (1) you are selling stuff to people you do not know, (2) you do it on a daily basis, and (3) the rate of rejection is much higher. This does require certain psychological traits that not everyone has and I was interested in learning how people who do real selling approach this.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 21, 2015, 12:29:17 AM
Everybody sells, even civil servants. We all have to convince others to buy our ideas, whether the target audience is our bosses or the public.
Do civil servants in Hong Kong regularly appear in front of the public and try to sell them stuff? Because trying to think up talking points for politicians/government officials is not "selling things to the public".
Quote from: Monoriu on February 21, 2015, 12:29:17 AM
Everybody sells, even civil servants. We all have to convince others to buy our ideas, whether the target audience is our bosses or the public.
Are you guys encouraged to have, you know, your own ideas? :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on February 21, 2015, 01:31:01 AM
Again, not the same thing.
I think what differentiates real selling from "selling we all do in our life yada yada yada" is (1) you are selling stuff to people you do not know, (2) you do it on a daily basis, and (3) the rate of rejection is much higher. This does require certain psychological traits that not everyone has and I was interested in learning how people who do real selling approach this.
While I agree that the line CC trotted out is annoying, you've just made up your own definition of sales. There are plenty of sales people who just sell to the same accounts, over and over.
Ok, perhaps I should have said "to people outside of your own organisation" as opposed to people you don't know. Although I would say that even people who have a stable client base are required to look out for more clients.
I'm an assembly line worker. I don't do any selling.
That's why I channel my hustling instinct, an instinct which is possessed by all Americans, and which is arguably simultaneously our greatest glory and our great downfall, into pimping the mike at my karaoke joint.
I see you as some cross between Psy and Hayek. Which is interesting, to say the least. :ph34r:
Oppa Ayn Rand Style. :ph34r:
37 Cent (real wage adjusted against inflation).
I once sold concessions at the Pool. Then the lifeguards found out and I had to leave. :(
Quote from: Caliga on February 20, 2015, 01:42:47 PM
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2015, 01:06:39 PM
I sell death to America's enemies.
You win the thread.
Did I win? Really?
I never won anything here in Languish, other than people's scorn and hatred.
(Not sure what scorn means, other than it is something bad, so I added hatred for dramatic effect)
Scorn is like contempt or disdain. It means people think poorly of you.
I like you Siege :)
I have never met anybody quite like you, online or off.
Quote from: Martinus on February 21, 2015, 01:34:12 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 21, 2015, 12:29:17 AM
Everybody sells, even civil servants. We all have to convince others to buy our ideas, whether the target audience is our bosses or the public.
Do civil servants in Hong Kong regularly appear in front of the public and try to sell them stuff? Because trying to think up talking points for politicians/government officials is not "selling things to the public".
Yes. HK used to be a colony. There is no "political class" in a colony, and the tradition is still somewhat true today. The functions of the political class are performed by civil servants. So yes, civil servants go to the legislature to get votes, civil servants appear on camera and talk to the public, civil servants go meet angry residents directly.