La Pologne fait le décompte de ses victimes de la guerre sur internet (http://technaute.cyberpresse.ca/nouvelles/internet/200906/15/01-875786-la-pologne-fait-le-decompte-de-ses-victimes-de-la-guerre-sur-internet.php)
too lazy to search for an english article. Marti will find this for us, I'm sure of it :)
Basically, every single Polish victim of that war will be listed on a web site. Quite an ambitious project.
Here's the site: http://www.straty.pl/
I'm not sure Marty will do anything.
It's not about Gay America.
Will it include Jewish victims?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 01:34:52 PM
Will it include Jewish victims?
It said Polish victims, not exterminated parasites of the host nation.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 01:34:52 PM
Will it include Jewish victims?
I haven't heard about it but I suppose it will have Polish citizens. I'd imagine this includes Polish citizens of Jewish ethnicity, as well, if that's what you are asking. I don't imagine it will include Jewish victims of non-Polish citizenship. :mellow:
What about Poles killed while collaborating?
Quote from: viper37 on June 15, 2009, 01:28:53 PM
Quite an ambitious project waste of taxpayers' money.
There, I fixed your post for you.
If the site included the names of Jews, they'd have bandwidth problems.
Quote from: Syt on June 15, 2009, 01:41:54 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 01:34:52 PM
Will it include Jewish victims?
It said Polish victims, not exterminated parasites of the host nation.
While the site doesn't say it, the cursory reading between the lines makes me think it's meant as a fuck you to Germans for all the recent noise concerning being kicked out of Western Poland after WW2. So it will list all Polish citizens who were killed by ze Germans.
Anyway, the site lists Jewish and Roma historical organisations as participants in the project, so yeah non-ethnic-Poles are also included obviously.
I thought this was about Kübelwagen victims in BF1942. :(
Quote from: The Brain on June 15, 2009, 01:59:02 PM
I thought this was about Kübelwagen victims in BF1942. :(
I apologize for nothing!
What about the Jews exterminated by the Poles?
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2009, 03:51:33 PM
What about the Jews exterminated by the Poles?
That was after the war so doesn't count. :contract:
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 01:52:57 PM
Anyway, the site lists Jewish and Roma historical organisations as participants in the project, so yeah non-ethnic-Poles are also included obviously.
I know it's not intentional, but the phrasing "It will include all non-ethnic Poles" sums up why Interwar Poland was so fucked up.
Quote from: Faeelin on June 15, 2009, 04:04:16 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 01:52:57 PM
Anyway, the site lists Jewish and Roma historical organisations as participants in the project, so yeah non-ethnic-Poles are also included obviously.
I know it's not intentional, but the phrasing "It will include all non-ethnic Poles" sums up why Interwar Poland was so fucked up.
I think you have a skewed perspective, as an American. Many Europeans even today view nationality and ethnicity in that way. America is an exception - certainly Poland wasn't one in 1939.
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:58:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2009, 03:51:33 PM
What about the Jews exterminated by the Poles?
That was after the war so doesn't count. :contract:
They killed even more Jews AFTER the war?
Wow. Where did they find more Jews to kill?
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2009, 04:11:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:58:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2009, 03:51:33 PM
What about the Jews exterminated by the Poles?
That was after the war so doesn't count. :contract:
They killed even more Jews AFTER the war?
Wow. Where did they find more Jews to kill?
The survivors returned and found themselves unwelcome.
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2009, 04:11:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 03:58:22 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2009, 03:51:33 PM
What about the Jews exterminated by the Poles?
That was after the war so doesn't count. :contract:
They killed even more Jews AFTER the war?
Wow. Where did they find more Jews to kill?
I'd say (but I don't have hard data on this), it was not "even" but "mainly" - I guess during the war, it was not necessary as Germans were doing it.
With Jews, this was the combination of resentment for the survivors returning to claim back their houses etc. (which were by the time settled by ethnic Poles) and the perception that Jews sided with communists (although I think this was more of an excuse). Of course centuries of antisemitic propaganda from the Catholic church helped a lot.
Guys, when I tell you about Polish Catholics, I know what I'm talking about. Many of Jews (and also Orthodox Ukrainians - the fact that Eastern Catholic Ukrainians were largely left alone implies a religious/cultural more than an ethnic/racist motive, btw) were slaughtered with an active participation (or at least no condemnation) from the Church hierarchy. Taking a cue from American and English catholics as to what true Catholicism looks like is like judging Communism by the deeds of the French Communist Party. If you want to see the real European Catholicism look at Poland (pogroms), Ireland (terrorism), Italy (mafia) and Spain (fascism).
Quote from: Berkut on June 15, 2009, 04:11:07 PM
Wow. Where did they find more Jews to kill?
They tended to be concentrated in small areas.
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 15, 2009, 01:31:12 PM
I'm not sure Marty will do anything.
It's not about Gay America.
true, but there were probably a couple of gay Poles sent to the camps, don't you think?
Quote from: viper37 on June 15, 2009, 05:09:26 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 15, 2009, 01:31:12 PM
I'm not sure Marty will do anything.
It's not about Gay America.
true, but there were probably a couple of gay Poles sent to the camps, don't you think?
Actually, I'd imagine probably not that many. Unlike in Germany, in Poland the nazis focused on Jews and the Roma. I know of several famous Polish gays who lived through the WW2 in conditions that were no different from heteros (meagre as they may have been).
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 01:49:20 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 15, 2009, 01:28:53 PM
Quite an ambitious project waste of taxpayers' money.
There, I fixed your post for you.
See, doesn't involve enough gays.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 15, 2009, 01:34:52 PM
Will it include Jewish victims?
It said Polish victims, not victims of Poland.
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 04:10:10 PM
I think you have a skewed perspective, as an American. Many Europeans even today view nationality and ethnicity in that way. America is an exception - certainly Poland wasn't one in 1939.
Heh, a joke for you all from the Lodz ghetto.
A woman wakes up and turns to her husband. "I just had the most wonderful dream! I was walking outside, and the walls were plastered with "Beat the Jews!" and "End ritual slaughter!"
"What was so wonderful about that?"
"Don't you see? It meant the Poles were back in charge!"
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 04:22:34 PMTaking a cue from American and English catholics as to what true Catholicism looks like is like judging Communism by the deeds of the French Communist Party.
Spanish or Italian Communist Parties would be a better fit. The French Communist Party was probably the most conservative and Soviet in Europe.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 08:35:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 04:22:34 PMTaking a cue from American and English catholics as to what true Catholicism looks like is like judging Communism by the deeds of the French Communist Party.
Spanish or Italian Communist Parties would be a better fit. The French Communist Party was probably the most conservative and Soviet in Europe.
Everyone found the Spanish catholics weird. The fact is that the reasons behind the Polish killings of Jews have little to do with religion an all to do with the fact Poles don't like Jews. They did the same stuff Gypsies.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 15, 2009, 09:51:58 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 15, 2009, 08:35:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 04:22:34 PMTaking a cue from American and English catholics as to what true Catholicism looks like is like judging Communism by the deeds of the French Communist Party.
Spanish or Italian Communist Parties would be a better fit. The French Communist Party was probably the most conservative and Soviet in Europe.
Everyone found the Spanish catholics weird. The fact is that the reasons behind the Polish killings of Jews have little to do with religion an all to do with the fact Poles don't like Jews. They did the same stuff Gypsies.
Read "Fear" by Jan T. Gross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_T._Gross) about the role the catholic church played in the pogroms. Why do you think Poles didn't like Jews?
Because they have massive inferiority complexes?
Quote from: Alcibiades on June 15, 2009, 06:55:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2009, 01:49:20 PM
Quote from: viper37 on June 15, 2009, 01:28:53 PM
Quite an ambitious project waste of taxpayers' money.
There, I fixed your post for you.
See, doesn't involve enough gays.
You are retarded. There is no reason to waste taxpayers' money on this because, duh, we know Germans killed people in Poland. We have been taught that for the last 60 years, and this is nothing more than a poor propaganda attempt by a nationalist/right wing institute (so far associated with ill-managed and botched Polish equivalent of the German Gauck Institute) to fight German claims of compensations for the ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2.
It would be a better idea to research the post-war ethnic violence as this is something that was taboo during the communist time, and has only resurfaced after 1989 - but the very institute that is organizing this shit is involved in denying this ever happened or has had any material scope.
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 12:50:30 AM
Read "Fear" by Jan T. Gross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_T._Gross) about the role the catholic church played in the pogroms. Why do you think Poles didn't like Jews?
Your link says it was not about anti-semitism but about Banditry. Europeans have hated Jews before there was a Catholic church. I imagine the Poles killed their Jewish neighbors mostly due to angry impotence. They attack a people who are actually weaker then them. For Poles this was human skeletons coming out of death camps. This is the reason for most attacks on miniorties.
Further looking seems that this fellow Gross seems to think it was started by the Soviets.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2009, 02:34:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 12:50:30 AM
Read "Fear" by Jan T. Gross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_T._Gross) about the role the catholic church played in the pogroms. Why do you think Poles didn't like Jews?
Your link says it was not about anti-semitism but about Banditry. Europeans have hated Jews before there was a Catholic church. I imagine the Poles killed their Jewish neighbors mostly due to angry impotence. They attack a people who are actually weaker then them. For Poles this was human skeletons coming out of death camps. This is the reason for most attacks on miniorties.
Further looking seems that this fellow Gross seems to think it was started by the Soviets.
Uhm no, it's certainly not what he thinks.
Here are reviews of his book:
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8347.html
http://www.amazon.com/Fear-Anti-Semitism-Poland-After-Auschwitz/dp/0375509240
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl/9780375509247.html
This was for a while the most hated book in Poland, especially among the Catholic hierarchy and the right wingers (several bishops denounced it from the pulpits). The PiS government even tried to pass a law similar to the one in force in Turkey, that would penalize "defamation of the Polish people", because of the backlash this book created - fortunately, it was ruled unconstitutional by the Polish Constitutional Tribunal. I read parts of the book, mainly because I didn't have time to read it whole - but it is a chilling and disturbing read.
What a waste of time and money.
It'd be better to spend this money listing all of the paedophiles so we can go and hurt them.
Quote from: Palisadoes on June 16, 2009, 04:05:04 AM
What a waste of time and money.
It'd be better to spend this money listing all of the paedophiles so we can go and hurt them.
:bleeding:
Quote from: Palisadoes on June 16, 2009, 04:05:04 AM
What a waste of time and money.
It'd be better to spend this money listing all of the paedophiles so we can go and hurt them.
What a great idea... :rolleyes:
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 03:34:27 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2009, 02:34:34 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 12:50:30 AM
Read "Fear" by Jan T. Gross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_T._Gross) about the role the catholic church played in the pogroms. Why do you think Poles didn't like Jews?
Your link says it was not about anti-semitism but about Banditry. Europeans have hated Jews before there was a Catholic church. I imagine the Poles killed their Jewish neighbors mostly due to angry impotence. They attack a people who are actually weaker then them. For Poles this was human skeletons coming out of death camps. This is the reason for most attacks on miniorties.
Further looking seems that this fellow Gross seems to think it was started by the Soviets.
Uhm no, it's certainly not what he thinks.
How do you know? You were to busy to read his book. I simply followed your links. I know it's easy to push polish guilt onto someone else but face it. You guys deserved the soviet occupation.
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 04:14:22 AM
Quote from: Palisadoes on June 16, 2009, 04:05:04 AM
What a waste of time and money.
It'd be better to spend this money listing all of the paedophiles so we can go and hurt them.
:bleeding:
You're right to fear that. Gay = pedophile.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2009, 05:57:06 AM
How do you know? You were to busy to read his book. I simply followed your links. I know it's easy to push polish guilt onto someone else but face it. You guys deserved the soviet occupation.
You might want to learn how to read and synthesize information. The only people in those links who went on and on about the Soviets were bit coincidentally people who rate the book with one star on amazon and then blamed the author for vilifying polish people.
I would be more impressed if they listed the 200,000+ Poles who died during the Stalinist post war period. Shaming the Nazis is sorta like shooting fish in a barrel.
I would be more impressed if they listed the several millions Poles who willingly and gleefully participated in the Holocaust. That would be an actual useful bit of self-reflection.
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2009, 09:54:28 AM
I would be more impressed if they listed the several millions Poles who willingly and gleefully participated in the Holocaust. That would be an actual useful bit of self-reflection.
Are you seriously suggesting it or is this just a troll/rhetorics? Because how would you expect going about it? It's not like there are records or evidence you can use that way - certainly not to have a list of "several millions" (if that's the number indeed).
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 10:02:35 AM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2009, 09:54:28 AM
I would be more impressed if they listed the several millions Poles who willingly and gleefully participated in the Holocaust. That would be an actual useful bit of self-reflection.
Are you seriously suggesting it or is this just a troll/rhetorics? Because how would you expect going about it? It's not like there are records or evidence you can use that way - certainly not to have a list of "several millions" (if that's the number indeed).
Of course I am not seriously suggesting it. That doesn't make it a troll though - just an observation about how stupid the idea of listing victims is from a nation that mostly went along with one of the most brutal genocides in human history.
Newsflash: Poiish rightwingers are fucked up. I wish I told you guys before. :(
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2009, 10:19:39 AM
Of course I am not seriously suggesting it. That doesn't make it a troll though - just an observation about how stupid the idea of listing victims is from a nation that mostly went along with one of the most brutal genocides in human history.
That strikes me as a bit unfair. Poland was not exactly a nation of collaborators.
I would say there were four groups of people:
- people like Irena Sendler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irena_Sendler (who died recently, with The Economist running a great obituary on her) - really a role model - who saved thousands of Jewish children,
- people who fought with the nazis, but did not care that much about helping Jews,
- people who neither fought with the nazis, nor cared that much about helping Jews,
- collaborators who helped in the Holocaust, either for ideological reasons or because of opportunism.
The third group would be the most numerous by far. I would say group one and two (combined) would be as numerous as group four.
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 03:28:54 PM
I would say there were four groups of people:
- people like Irena Sendler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irena_Sendler (who died recently, with The Economist running a great obituary on her) - really a role model - who saved thousands of Jewish children,
- people who fought with the nazis, but did not care that much about helping Jews,
- people who neither fought with the nazis, nor cared that much about helping Jews,
- collaborators who helped in the Holocaust, either for ideological reasons or because of opportunism.
The third group would be the most numerous by far. I would say group one and two (combined) would be as numerous as group four.
I bet only a minority of Germans "helped in the Holocaust" as well.
Quote from: Valmy on June 16, 2009, 03:23:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2009, 10:19:39 AM
Of course I am not seriously suggesting it. That doesn't make it a troll though - just an observation about how stupid the idea of listing victims is from a nation that mostly went along with one of the most brutal genocides in human history.
That strikes me as a bit unfair. Poland was not exactly a nation of collaborators.
When it came to the Holocaust, many of them did in fact collaborate.
Sure, they probably were not very happy about being conquered by the Germans, but plenty seemed to be pretty pleased with the silver lining of getting to kill lots of Jews.
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2009, 03:38:00 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 03:28:54 PM
I would say there were four groups of people:
- people like Irena Sendler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irena_Sendler (who died recently, with The Economist running a great obituary on her) - really a role model - who saved thousands of Jewish children,
- people who fought with the nazis, but did not care that much about helping Jews,
- people who neither fought with the nazis, nor cared that much about helping Jews,
- collaborators who helped in the Holocaust, either for ideological reasons or because of opportunism.
The third group would be the most numerous by far. I would say group one and two (combined) would be as numerous as group four.
I bet only a minority of Germans "helped in the Holocaust" as well.
Surely you are not equating the antisemitic Polish collaborators with the German state apparatus engineering and implementing the Holocaust, right?
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2009, 03:39:08 PM
When it came to the Holocaust, many of them did in fact collaborate.
Sure, they probably were not very happy about being conquered by the Germans, but plenty seemed to be pretty pleased with the silver lining of getting to kill lots of Jews.
I don't know the details of that. I do know that there was no volunteer Polish SS unit, no Polish German puppet, and the largest non-Communist resistance movement in World War II.
It seems rather unfair to say that they were a 'nation that mostly went along with one of the most brutal genocides in human history'. They certainly were no friends of the Germans. If they were so anxious to form units of Jew killers why weren't there any Polish SS volunteers like the other East European nations?
I mean individuals collaborating to some extent is one thing, large scale collaborating like the Flemish or even systemic collaboration like with Quisling and Vichy and company are something else.
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 03:41:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2009, 03:38:00 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 03:28:54 PM
I would say there were four groups of people:
- people like Irena Sendler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irena_Sendler (who died recently, with The Economist running a great obituary on her) - really a role model - who saved thousands of Jewish children,
- people who fought with the nazis, but did not care that much about helping Jews,
- people who neither fought with the nazis, nor cared that much about helping Jews,
- collaborators who helped in the Holocaust, either for ideological reasons or because of opportunism.
The third group would be the most numerous by far. I would say group one and two (combined) would be as numerous as group four.
I bet only a minority of Germans "helped in the Holocaust" as well.
Surely you are not equating the antisemitic Polish collaborators with the German state apparatus engineering and implementing the Holocaust, right?
Of course not, there wasn't any Polish apparatus at all.
The moral guilt of having been involved is a matter of scale though - not of kind.
Well, before WW2, there wasn't even an attempt of the Polish government to make anything like the Holocaust, or even ethnic cleansing (in the sense of deportations). In fact, Pilsudski (who orchestrated the 1926 coup and was later the "founding father" of the authoritarian regime that ruled until 1939) was accused by the right wingers of being a philosemite (I believe his wife was Jewish). So the simple answer is that - if the nazis haven't invaded and began Holocaust in Poland, it wouldn't have happened in Poland.
This doesn't exonerate the significant portion of the populace who benefited, secretly cheered or simply looked away when the Holocaust was happening (including a significant part of the Catholic Church hierarchy, who were viciously antisemitic pre war - and also viciously opposed to Pilsudski, whom they viewed as a socialist and an anti-catholic) but I think your brush is too broad.
Well, Poland did not have a Hitler take the country over, so they never had a Holocaust, but I don't see any reason to think that if they had they all would have reacted any differently than the Germans. Certainly their actions when the Germans took over were largely contemptible, with some exceptions, of course.
Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2009, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2009, 05:57:06 AM
How do you know? You were to busy to read his book. I simply followed your links. I know it's easy to push polish guilt onto someone else but face it. You guys deserved the soviet occupation.
You might want to learn how to read and synthesize information. The only people in those links who went on and on about the Soviets were bit coincidentally people who rate the book with one star on amazon and then blamed the author for vilifying polish people.
You might want to learn to shut the fuck up.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2009, 04:47:09 PM
You might want to learn to shut the fuck up.
I use deference and silence where appropriate. I guess that is one difference between my online persona and myself, in my everyday life, I don't speak to the clinically insane.
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 03:41:51 PM
Surely you are not equating the antisemitic Polish collaborators with the German state apparatus engineering and implementing the Holocaust, right?
I remember watching Shoah. My impression was that the Poles were much more human. Their anti-semitism was far less cynical and cold than that the German officers described. And sometimes your own expectations would be confounded. I remember a a group of Polish women being interviewed and they were describing the life in the village before the Holocaust. They said 'the Jews all smelled'. The interviewer then presses them to explain that and they say 'the Jews were tanners'. It's a very poignant moment of film I find.
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 03:20:40 PM
Newsflash: Poiish rightwingers are fucked up. I wish I told you guys before. :(
Yeah, commemorating Holocaust victims--you can't get much more fucked up than that. :rolleyes:
with regards to the Russian history thread, the need to add "The Truth" to the list of the dead... :(
Quote from: dps on June 17, 2009, 10:19:30 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2009, 03:20:40 PM
Newsflash: Poiish rightwingers are fucked up. I wish I told you guys before. :(
Yeah, commemorating Holocaust victims--you can't get much more fucked up than that. :rolleyes:
This is not commemorating Holocaust victims - this is commemorating Polish citizens killed by Germans - many may have been killed as a part of Holocaust, but the focus is different.
Quote from: Berkut on June 16, 2009, 03:56:42 PM
The moral guilt of having been involved is a matter of scale though - not of kind.
What was that scale in Poland's case?