They should have been kicked off the flight the very first moment they started causing trouble. If your retarded bronze age beliefs prevent you from acting like a reasonable member of the society, you shouldn't be allowed to take benefit of the modern age technological advances.
QuoteOne passenger described the trip as "an 11-hour long nightmare."
El Al passengers heading to Israel to celebrate the Jewish new year were delayed leaving New York on the eve of Rosh Hashanah when ultra-Orthodox passengers refused to sit near women.
Because their beliefs require men and women to be segregated, the ultra-Orthodox men, recognizable by their black hats and curly tendrils over the ears, attempted to trade their pre-assigned seats with other passengers, offering money in some cases, the Israeli news Web site ynetnews.com reported.
The pilot pleaded for them to sit down and the flight finally took off. But after takeoff, chaos erupted.
"I ended up sitting next to a ... man who jumped out of his seat the moment we had finished taking off and proceeded to stand in the aisle," a woman passenger identified only as Galit told Ynet. The man had asked her to move from the seat beside her husband to accommodate his religious beliefs, but she refused.
"People stood in the aisles and refused to go forward," said Amit Ben-Natan, a passenger who was on board the plane.
"I went to the bathroom and it was a mission impossible, the noise was endless," Galit said of the men crowding the aisle and praying loudly.
El Al promised to look into the issue, Ynet reported: "The company will examine the complaints and if some passengers are found to have acted out of line the company will examine its future steps," the airline said.
This isn't the first time the Israeli airline has run into trouble with ultra-Orthodox men, also called "Haredim."
Haaretz reported that in 2012 El Al noticed an increasing number of Haredi men asking to switch seats to avoid sitting next to women. Large groups of up to 20 would try to reserve seats in blocks to avoid it. They would also approach female passengers asking to trade seats before takeoff. An American woman sued, claiming an El Al flight attendant moved her to the back of the plane to accommodate Haredi men.
Israeli ultra-Orthodox communities have also lobbied for gender segregation on buses, at checkout counters and in other public spaces. Sitting next to women isn't the only issue for ultra-Orthodox airplane passengers.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/09/26/ultra-orthodox-jews-delay-el-al-flight-refusing-to-sit-near-women/
Again? Not bronze age. Iron age. You know, like Socrates and Aristotle. When did this become a talking point amongst atheists? Makes you sound like an ignorant rube.
:Joos
Quote from: Razgovory on September 26, 2014, 06:57:11 AM
Again? Not bronze age. Iron age. You know, like Socrates and Aristotle. When did this become a talking point amongst atheists? Makes you sound like an ignorant rube.
They thrive on outrage, not well reasoned opinions. You act like he's a lawyer or something.
At any rate, this is one sort of instance where I don't see why we have to politely accept intolerant religious differences.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 26, 2014, 06:57:11 AM
When did this become a talking point amongst atheists?
When Al Gore invented the internet, and they could say such things without fear of a belligerent theist or group of theists beating them down.
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2014, 07:58:15 AM
At any rate, this is one sort of instance where I don't see why we have to politely accept intolerant religious differences.
Yup. Make a fuss like that, get kicked off the flight IMO. If they don't like it, they can try swimming to Israel.
I sincerely hope the Israeli government absolutely refuses the ultra-orthodox demands for gender segregation.
Quote from: Malthus on September 26, 2014, 09:07:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2014, 07:58:15 AM
At any rate, this is one sort of instance where I don't see why we have to politely accept intolerant religious differences.
Yup. Make a fuss like that, get kicked off the flight IMO. If they don't like it, they can try swimming to Israel.
I sincerely hope the Israeli government absolutely refuses the ultra-orthodox demands for gender segregation.
What was weird was the time we had a sales guy come to our office trying to drum up business. Most of his clients in the office were women whose hands he wouldn't shake as he couldn't touch women. I thought that perhaps sales wasn't the best gig for him - or at least not in-person matters.
I sometimes squat near women.
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2014, 09:09:22 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 26, 2014, 09:07:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2014, 07:58:15 AM
At any rate, this is one sort of instance where I don't see why we have to politely accept intolerant religious differences.
Yup. Make a fuss like that, get kicked off the flight IMO. If they don't like it, they can try swimming to Israel.
I sincerely hope the Israeli government absolutely refuses the ultra-orthodox demands for gender segregation.
What was weird was the time we had a sales guy come to our office trying to drum up business. Most of his clients in the office were women whose hands he wouldn't shake as he couldn't touch women. I thought that perhaps sales wasn't the best gig for him - or at least not in-person matters.
garbon, the great toucher of women. :rolleyes:
Quote from: The Brain on September 26, 2014, 12:27:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2014, 09:09:22 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 26, 2014, 09:07:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2014, 07:58:15 AM
At any rate, this is one sort of instance where I don't see why we have to politely accept intolerant religious differences.
Yup. Make a fuss like that, get kicked off the flight IMO. If they don't like it, they can try swimming to Israel.
I sincerely hope the Israeli government absolutely refuses the ultra-orthodox demands for gender segregation.
What was weird was the time we had a sales guy come to our office trying to drum up business. Most of his clients in the office were women whose hands he wouldn't shake as he couldn't touch women. I thought that perhaps sales wasn't the best gig for him - or at least not in-person matters.
garbon, the great toucher of women. :rolleyes:
I touch women in ways that are appropriate for the workplace, yes. :huh:
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2014, 12:41:21 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 26, 2014, 12:27:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2014, 09:09:22 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 26, 2014, 09:07:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2014, 07:58:15 AM
At any rate, this is one sort of instance where I don't see why we have to politely accept intolerant religious differences.
Yup. Make a fuss like that, get kicked off the flight IMO. If they don't like it, they can try swimming to Israel.
I sincerely hope the Israeli government absolutely refuses the ultra-orthodox demands for gender segregation.
What was weird was the time we had a sales guy come to our office trying to drum up business. Most of his clients in the office were women whose hands he wouldn't shake as he couldn't touch women. I thought that perhaps sales wasn't the best gig for him - or at least not in-person matters.
garbon, the great toucher of women. :rolleyes:
I touch women in ways that are appropriate for the workplace, yes. :huh:
HOTT
I think I read recently that 60% of American Jews are now ultra-Orthodox, because of their high birth rate.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 26, 2014, 12:43:48 PM
, because of their high birth rate.
:wacko: How do they even...
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 26, 2014, 08:00:09 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 26, 2014, 06:57:11 AM
When did this become a talking point amongst atheists?
When Al Gore invented the internet, and they could say such things without fear of a belligerent theist or group of theists beating them down.
Well without Atheism how would we know we are smarter then other people on the internet?
Quote from: Martinus on September 26, 2014, 06:54:56 AM
They should have been kicked off the flight the very first moment they started causing trouble.
no, no, we must respect every religious belief no matter how silly they are.
Maybe there's a biblical/Jewish reference to the skies being the domain of only god. That way they could insist that these literalists/fundamentalists mustn't fly in aircraft? :unsure:
Quote from: mongers on September 26, 2014, 07:12:10 PM
Maybe there's a biblical/Jewish reference to the skies being the domain of only god. That way they could insist that these literalists/fundamentalists mustn't fly in aircraft? :unsure:
interesting. To the pope-mobile!
Quote from: The Brain on September 26, 2014, 12:44:46 PM
:wacko: How do they even...
Through bedsheets with holes cut in them? :unsure:
Yeah, I'm not sure what's to be done about ultra-Orthodox Jews. They populate in really high numbers and they are hardly better than radical Islamists. I hate any religious person whose religious practice makes them so incompatible with modern society. To be honest if it just targeted Orthodox Jews I wouldn't have nearly the same opposition to the Holocaust.
Incidentally, the Polish supreme court just ruled that a sikh must remove his head gear at airport security control (but can expect this being done in a private room). Thoughts?
They could just book a business class flight where they get a seat that is separated from the neighbor...
Quote from: Martinus on September 27, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Incidentally, the Polish supreme court just ruled that a sikh must remove his head gear at airport security control (but can expect this being done in a private room). Thoughts?
What do you mean by security control?
If it's just the normal walk through the metal detector and x-ray your jacket then it seems a bit much that they have to remove the turban too and inconvenient if they have to do it in private.
If it's as part of a more complete search then I think it seems sensible.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 27, 2014, 07:13:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 27, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Incidentally, the Polish supreme court just ruled that a sikh must remove his head gear at airport security control (but can expect this being done in a private room). Thoughts?
What do you mean by security control?
If it's just the normal walk through the metal detector and x-ray your jacket then it seems a bit much that they have to remove the turban too and inconvenient if they have to do it in private.
If it's as part of a more complete search then I think it seems sensible.
Metal detector thingie. Everyone has to remove their headgear, their coat, jacket and you may be asked to remove your shoes.
Quote from: Martinus on September 27, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Incidentally, the Polish supreme court just ruled that a sikh must remove his head gear at airport security control (but can expect this being done in a private room). Thoughts?
Can't they ride through the baggage scanning equipment?
Quote from: Martinus on September 28, 2014, 12:29:34 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 27, 2014, 07:13:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 27, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Incidentally, the Polish supreme court just ruled that a sikh must remove his head gear at airport security control (but can expect this being done in a private room). Thoughts?
What do you mean by security control?
If it's just the normal walk through the metal detector and x-ray your jacket then it seems a bit much that they have to remove the turban too and inconvenient if they have to do it in private.
If it's as part of a more complete search then I think it seems sensible.
Metal detector thingie. Everyone has to remove their headgear, their coat, jacket and you may be asked to remove your shoes.
Seems a bit unnecessary.
Quote from: Martinus on September 28, 2014, 12:29:34 AM
Metal detector thingie. Everyone has to remove their headgear, their coat, jacket and you may be asked to remove your shoes.
Sounds like bullshit, then.
I guess Poland doesn't do much tourism or trade with the Sikh regions of India so it doesn't amount to much, but it seems pretty parochial.
Quote from: Martinus on September 27, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Incidentally, the Polish supreme court just ruled that a sikh must remove his head gear at airport security control (but can expect this being done in a private room). Thoughts?
What's the rationale?
Quote from: Malthus on September 29, 2014, 01:20:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 27, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Incidentally, the Polish supreme court just ruled that a sikh must remove his head gear at airport security control (but can expect this being done in a private room). Thoughts?
What's the rationale?
Equality before the law and sensible security arrangements (and who gives a fuck about foreigners with strange customs).
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 26, 2014, 12:43:48 PM
I think I read recently that 60% of American Jews are now ultra-Orthodox, because of their high birth rate.
Not according to this survey.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/
It says Orthodox Jews are the smallest denomination, at 10%. The "ultra Orthodox" are a subset of that (a total of 6%).
In contrast, Reform is 35% and Conservative is 18%.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/chapter-3-jewish-identity/#denominational-identity
QuoteMore than one-third of U.S. Jews (35%) identify with the Reform movement. About one-in-five (18%) identify with the Conservative movement. One-in-ten Jews identify with Orthodox Judaism (10%), including 6% who belong to Ultra-Orthodox groups and 3% who are Modern Orthodox. Three-in-ten Jews (30%) do not identify with any particular Jewish denomination. The remainder (7%) identify with smaller movements (such as Reconstructionism or the Jewish Renewal movement), say they belong to more than one movement (such as both Conservative and Orthodox), or decline to answer the question.
Quote from: Jacob on September 29, 2014, 01:23:46 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 29, 2014, 01:20:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 27, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Incidentally, the Polish supreme court just ruled that a sikh must remove his head gear at airport security control (but can expect this being done in a private room). Thoughts?
What's the rationale?
Equality before the law and sensible security arrangements (and who gives a fuck about foreigners with strange customs).
Doesn't strike me as making any sense. The head covering is just a bit of cloth. Sure, you could smuggle stuff in that, as long as it wasn't metal; but so could you smuggle stuff down your pants, and they don't routinely strip-search everyone.
Quote from: Malthus on September 29, 2014, 01:31:28 PM
Doesn't strike me as making any sense. The head covering is just a bit of cloth. Sure, you could smuggle stuff in that, as long as it wasn't metal; but so could you smuggle stuff down your pants, and they don't routinely strip-search everyone.
Exactly.