Seventy years ago this week Operation Market Garden took place.
This anniversary seems to have gotten lost amongst the coverage of the Scottish independence referendum.
I haven't found any interesting anniversary pieces on news websites, but in tribute to the failed heroic efforts of those involved, I shall watch 'A Bridge Too Far' sometime this week*. :bowler:
*The operations started 70 years ago, this Wednesday gone and 'ended' on the 25th (this Thursday)
QuoteI said we'd like to take your surrender, but we haven't the proper facilities.
:bowler:
I grew up watching A Bridge Too Far time and time again. My dad would watch the movie at least once a month on VHS.
Watching it on tv, can't be there in person unfortunately. :(
Most of the airborne stuff had to be cancelled because of dense fog this morning.
I was there 20 years ago when I lived in Nijmegen.
It was the first time there was a large scale remembrance, the veterans were driven along the route in their old vehicles.
Nijmegen was the first major city, and they evidently were not expecting the tens of thousands of people lining the road applauding them.
There wasn't a dry eye to be seen. :bowler:
Quote from: Maladict on September 20, 2014, 09:17:11 AM
I was there 20 years ago when I lived in Nijmegen.
It was the first time there was a large scale remembrance, the veterans were driven along the route in their old vehicles.
Nijmegen was the first major city, and they evidently were not expecting the tens of thousands of people lining the road applauding them.
There wasn't a dry eye to be seen. :bowler:
Must have been very moving, nice first hand story.
Quote from: Syt on September 20, 2014, 08:28:39 AM
I grew up watching A Bridge Too Far time and time again. My dad would watch the movie at least once a month on VHS.
Didn't trigger his PTSD?
He was born in '39.
He was a big war buff fanboi. He liked war movies (esp. WW2), read war novels, e.g. early Konsalik or books by veterans, like one from a former Stuka pilot that was constantly in our bathroom (the book, not the pilot), plus Der Landser (monthly pulp adventure stuff).
I don't recall that he watched documentaries or read non-fiction books much.
Quote from: Maladict on September 20, 2014, 09:17:11 AM
I was there 20 years ago when I lived in Nijmegen.
It was the first time there was a large scale remembrance, the veterans were driven along the route in their old vehicles.
Nijmegen was the first major city, and they evidently were not expecting the tens of thousands of people lining the road applauding them.
There wasn't a dry eye to be seen. :bowler:
Did the veterans: immediately halt just past Nijmegen?
Quote from: Syt on September 20, 2014, 02:07:34 PM
He was born in '39.
He was a big war buff fanboi. He liked war movies (esp. WW2), read war novels, e.g. early Konsalik or books by veterans, like one from a former Stuka pilot that was constantly in our bathroom (the book, not the pilot), plus Der Landser (monthly pulp adventure stuff).
I don't recall that he watched documentaries or read non-fiction books much.
'39? Respect!
He died in '97, so it was not such a great run. :D
Oh, he wasn't in the fighting? Sorry I misunderstood. :Embarrass:
Quote from: mongers on September 20, 2014, 07:32:01 AM
Seventy years ago this week Operation Market Garden took place.
This anniversary seems to have gotten lost amongst the coverage of the Scottish independence referendum.
I sometimes don't get the priorities for battle anniversaries on Languish :hmm:
Early this month it was the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Marne, THE most decisive battle of WWI, with many armies and millions of participants, and yet seemed to have been totally forgotten here.
Yet, on the 70th anniversary of an operation that just involved some divisions, you have a thread. Honestly.
Quote from: mongers
I haven't found any interesting anniversary pieces on news websites, but in tribute to the failed heroic efforts of those involved, I shall watch 'A Bridge Too Far' sometime this week*. :bowler:
If it's Market Garden you're interested, forget 'A Bridge Too Far' and see instead 'Theirs Is the Glory' (aka Men of Arnhem).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3e6S8rg9_c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3e6S8rg9_c)
This movie about the battle at Arnhem was made less than year and a half after the battle, and the most important part is that all participants (military and civilian) are actually playing themselves.
Yes, they are all doing and saying what they themselves did in the battle. No actors, just the real soldiers and civilians of the conflict.
You will also find that, since this movie stars the ACTUAL people involved in it, which made a point of it being as accurate as possible to what they did and undewent, that the scenes are... less spectacular than those of the Hollywood drivel that was made decades later.
I didn't know the Marne was the most decisive battle of WWI.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2014, 04:08:58 PM
I didn't know the Marne was the most decisive battle of WWI.
It made it possible for the soldiers to get home before the leaves fell.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2014, 04:08:58 PM
I didn't know the Marne was the most decisive battle of WWI.
I didn't know there was one.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 20, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
I sometimes don't get the priorities for battle anniversaries on Languish :hmm:
Early this month it was the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Marne, THE most decisive battle of WWI, with many armies and millions of participants, and yet seemed to have been totally forgotten here.
Yet, on the 70th anniversary of an operation that just involved some divisions, you have a thread. Honestly.
I think that the one poster on Languish who cared so much about the battle of the Marne was busy getting catfished by someone pretending to the the Russian ambassador. Honestly.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 20, 2014, 04:31:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2014, 04:08:58 PM
I didn't know the Marne was the most decisive battle of WWI.
I didn't know there was one.
There were a few decisive battles. The Tannenburg and Masurian Lakes was pretty decisive. Amiens and the the Hundred Days offensive did sort of win the war.
Time to check if Close Combat 2 runs on XP on compatibility mode. Mac OS X has forsaken Classic for a while so it's only pre 10.7.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 20, 2014, 05:09:14 PM
Time to check if Close Combat 2 runs on XP on compatibility mode. Mac OS X has forsaken Classic for a while so it's only pre 10.7.
CC2. :mmm:
Matrix keeps cranking those things back out. Christmas sale in December should knock their retard price down 30% or so.
Battlefront has a market Garden game, or rather a module. They maintain similar retarded pricing as Matrix does.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 20, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
I sometimes don't get the priorities for battle anniversaries on Languish :hmm:
Market-Garden has a fantastic narrative arc, with desperately outgunned paras clinging to a toehold while scanning the horizon for salvation as the clock ticks down and ammo runs out. Individual acts of bravery, a colorful mish-mash of nationalities, a variety of unit types.
The Marne, in contrast, is not much more than a mathematical equation.
Really it's more of a body of water then anything else.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 20, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
Quote from: mongers on September 20, 2014, 07:32:01 AM
Seventy years ago this week Operation Market Garden took place.
This anniversary seems to have gotten lost amongst the coverage of the Scottish independence referendum.
Early this month it was the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Marne, THE most decisive battle of WWI, with many armies and millions of participants, and yet seemed to have been totally forgotten here.
Yawn
Yeah, Market Garden had the better soundtrack.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 20, 2014, 06:56:59 PM
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 20, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
I sometimes don't get the priorities for battle anniversaries on Languish :hmm:
Market-Garden has a fantastic narrative arc, with desperately outgunned paras clinging to a toehold while scanning the horizon for salvation as the clock ticks down and ammo runs out. Individual acts of bravery, a colorful mish-mash of nationalities, a variety of unit types.
The Marne, in contrast, is not much more than a mathematical equation.
Market Garden also had an absolutely fantastic cast - Dirk Bogarde, Edward Fox, Elliott Gould, Robert Redford, Gene Hackman, Sean Connery, Michael Caine, Laurence Olivier, Maximillian Schell, James Caan...
You'd never get all this first-rate talent into a modern battle.
Battle of New York? Chock full of A-listers. ;)
I liked the German movie from the 30s where Douaumont veterans played themselves.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 20, 2014, 06:56:59 PM
The Marne, in contrast, is not much more than a mathematical equation.
Er, no.
The First Battle of the Marne occurred during the time when armies were fully on the move, and it was one of the most fluid battles of WWI.
It was also full of acts of courage by units and whole armies; the tactics of attrition would not come to being until 1916.
One of the biggest symbols of the battle is be the message sent by the French general Ferdinand Foch, leading 9th Army, to the GHQ:
Quote from: Foch, at the First Battle of the Marne
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
It was the battle the stopped the Germans from conquering France and threw all the war plans into disarray. It was the battle that pretty much ultimately ensured Allied victory and made WWI into what it would become.
Quote from: The Brain
I liked the German movie from the 30s where Douaumont veterans played themselves.
Indeed, movies where the veterans are the actors are far more realistic.
Which is why I recommend the movie I linked above - all the protagonists are the real ones, and it was filmed on location. The rubble is still the one of the battle, which was yet to be fully cleared.
You can't get more faithful than that, and it is a much truer tale than seeing some actors doing scenes 'embellished' to be more attractive.
Want Market Garden? Then go see the REAL soldiers of Market Garden in the REAL streets of war-torn Arnhem, not some Hollywood posers in a set.
Actually, the Marne simply decided where the trenches would be dug. The myth that it saved France is easily disproven by the fact that the Germans had already swung short of Paris before the battle had begun.
I'd say the Paris taxi shuttle is a much bigger symbol of the battle than the nonsensical Foch quote that no one remembers.
Finally got around to watching Theirs Is The Glory and agree that it has it moments. It is very poorly paced, though, and the narration sounds like it was written by somebody who wrote soap commercials for a living. Production values are about zero, which is what you'd expect for a film shot that year of scarcity. It also just covers the battle for Arheim, and doesn't really explain why the defeat occurred, just that the Brits were heroes, every chap amongst 'em. It has some nice visuals, though, for all the lack of camera and sound quality. I'd say that A Bridge Too Far does a much better job both as history and as entertainment.
Quote from: grumbler on September 21, 2014, 06:05:49 PM
Actually, the Marne simply decided where the trenches would be dug.
1. What is this historical determinism hour? Trench warfare had not started yet.
2. The trenches were not dug on the Marne, many other battles would decide where they were to be dug.
QuoteThe myth that it saved France is easily disproven by the fact that the Germans had already swung short of Paris before the battle had begun.
1. The goal of the Schlieffen plan was not to capture Paris it was to destroy the French Army. Von Kluck's turn was in service of that goal, in addition to keeping the armies together. It just so happened Joffre had formed two more armies and stripped his southern flank and managed to fight it off. I am not sure how tight the battle really was since I am not sure how closely, in fact, the Germans were to breaking through the 9th Army.
2. There is no evidence that I can see that France was prepared to surrender even if they had conquered Paris anyway.
QuoteI'd say the Paris taxi shuttle is a much bigger symbol of the battle than the nonsensical Foch quote that no one remembers.
Huh? Anybody who knows jack about that battle knows that quote. It took place at the decisive moment when the Germans were trying to force the front of the 9th army.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2014, 04:08:58 PM
I didn't know the Marne was the most decisive battle of WWI.
Well there are not many to choose from :P
What is your candidate?
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 20, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
I sometimes don't get the priorities for battle anniversaries on Languish :hmm:
The priority is whatever Mongers or Tim decide they want to start a thread about.
Quote from: Valmy on September 21, 2014, 06:19:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2014, 04:08:58 PM
I didn't know the Marne was the most decisive battle of WWI.
Well there are not many to choose from :P
What is your candidate?
Belleau Wood, dammit. :mad: USA USA USA
Quote from: Valmy on September 21, 2014, 06:18:03 PM
Huh? Anybody who knows jack about that battle knows that quote. It took place at the decisive moment when the Germans were trying to force the front of the 9th army.
I don't know shit about WWI but I know that quote.
Quote from: Valmy on September 21, 2014, 06:18:03 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 21, 2014, 06:05:49 PM
Actually, the Marne simply decided where the trenches would be dug.
1. What is this historical determinism hour? Trench warfare had not started yet.
What is this, lack of reading comprehension hour? I said "
would be dug." That's future.
Quote2. The trenches were not dug on the Marne, many other battles would decide where they were to be dug.
Many battles, none of them as large and significant as the Marne.
Quote1. The goal of the Schlieffen plan was not to capture Paris it was to destroy the French Army. Von Kluck's turn was in service of that goal, in addition to keeping the armies together. It just so happened Joffre had formed two more armies and stripped his southern flank and managed to fight it off. I am not sure how tight the battle really was since I am not sure how closely, in fact, the Germans were to breaking through the 9th Army.
The Germans abandoned the Schlieffen Plan when they turned in front of Paris. The Schlieffen Plan included the capture of the city. The Battle of the Marne came about because the Germans were improvising in the face of the (probably inevitable) breakdown of their logistics.
Quote2. There is no evidence that I can see that France was prepared to surrender even if they had conquered Paris anyway.
A moot point when discussing the Battle of the Marne.
QuoteHuh? Anybody who knows jack about that battle knows that quote.
The purest form of argument by assertion. Thanks. I haven't seen such a specimen in years.
I like how grumbler's variable-geometry posts sweep back when he goes grumblersonic.
"A radish will never stand in the way of victory' - Marshall Foch.".
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2014, 08:03:30 PM
I like how grumbler's variable-geometry posts sweep back when he goes grumblersonic.
Launch the Alert 5. Martim-28's coming in fast!
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2014, 08:03:30 PM
I like how grumbler's variable-geometry posts sweep back when he goes grumblersonic.
What's the most important battle of Languish, I wonder...
Quote from: Jacob on September 21, 2014, 11:10:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2014, 08:03:30 PM
I like how grumbler's variable-geometry posts sweep back when he goes grumblersonic.
What's the most important battle of Languish, I wonder...
2003 battle of EUOT. We made a short tactical retreat. Once we shore up our numbers we'll bring the fight back to them.
Quote from: Valmy on September 21, 2014, 06:19:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2014, 04:08:58 PM
I didn't know the Marne was the most decisive battle of WWI.
Well there are not many to choose from :P
What is your candidate?
I posted a couple.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 22, 2014, 12:02:17 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 21, 2014, 06:19:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2014, 04:08:58 PM
I didn't know the Marne was the most decisive battle of WWI.
Well there are not many to choose from :P
What is your candidate?
I posted a couple.
Ah I missed that. I mean obviously Amien and the Hundred Days offensive was decisive in the sense that they ended the war. But I am not sure if I follow that Tannenberg and the Masurian Lakes would be more decisive than the Marne. The Russians still could have won in the Carpathians.
It was pretty decisive in ending the the immediate threat to East Prussia from Russian Armies. Did it win the war? But anytime you destroy a whole field army, I'd say it's pretty decisive.
Quote from: grumbler on September 21, 2014, 06:14:38 PM
Finally got around to watching Theirs Is The Glory and agree that it has it moments. It is very poorly paced, though, and the narration sounds like it was written by somebody who wrote soap commercials for a living. Production values are about zero, which is what you'd expect for a film shot that year of scarcity. It also just covers the battle for Arheim, and doesn't really explain why the defeat occurred, just that the Brits were heroes, every chap amongst 'em. It has some nice visuals, though, for all the lack of camera and sound quality. I'd say that A Bridge Too Far does a much better job both as history and as entertainment.
Sorry, I should have explained something about the movie: it was done with the full imput of the survivors of the 1st Para Division. It, therefore, focus on their actions at Arnhem, and not on the US Airborne divisions nor on the moves of the XXX Corps. And it doesn't explain why it happened because it is seen from their perspective and because the officers in charge (especially Montgomery) were still very much in charge at the time. Can't ruffle feathers like that.
The 'Poor pacing' and 'seems to have been written by somebody' who doesn't know well hot to write a story was because the troops insisted vehemently on taking an active part on writing the scenes, in order to make sure they were faithful to what happened, and not changed to make 'a nice story'.
As a result, instead of all the nice battle scenes, you have lots of time spent on what, well, a WW2 battle was spent: waiting in positions, exchanging thoughts, jokes, expectation... followed by periods of action and positioning who then subside.
And THAT is the main interest of the movie: instead of giving you the idea Hollywood gave you of what WW2 combat was, it gives you the real experience of WW2 soldiers in those battles. Sorry if the reality doesn't fit your idea of 'history'.
As for 'entertainment'... well, the men of the 1st Para were more interested in showing what they underwent, not in 'amusing the masses', so to say. Unlike Hollywood, who will pop up 'exciting' scenes and make up stuff that never happened just to keep the story 'interesting'.
Quote from: Raz
It was pretty decisive in ending the the immediate threat to East Prussia from Russian Armies. Did it win the war? But anytime you destroy a whole field army, I'd say it's pretty decisive
Not really. Dunkirk destroyed several French armies, not to mention the Belgian one. Did it decide WW2? The East Roman Army was pulverized at Adrianople in 378 AD, yet no massive changes came about from the battle.
Likewise, Verdun and the Somme each cost to each of the participating sides the same amount of losses as the Battle of Stalingrad inflicted on the Germans. Were they decisive?
In the same vein, Tannenberg and the Mazurian Lakes staved off the Russians, but did they decide WWI?
The key for a decisive battle is the strategic impact it had on the conflict. And by destroying the German plans to win the war quickly, the First Battle of the Marne pretty much insured that WWI would turn out the way it did. Had Germany won at the Marne, things would have been quite different indeed.
Martim, you have a very naive view of what kind of 'realism' would have been permitted on screen by the British army and society in 1947, and indeed what special effects could show. Does anyone bleed out? Is anyone blown apart? Are there any criticisms of the operation?
Theirs is the Glory is a very interesting film but it is not a definitive account, whether for the story or the action.
Also today marks 152 years since the Emancipation Proclamation.
Quote from: Martim Silva on September 22, 2014, 08:29:04 AM
And THAT is the main interest of the movie: instead of giving you the idea Hollywood gave you of what WW2 combat was, it gives you the real experience of WW2 soldiers in those battles. Sorry if the reality doesn't fit your idea of 'history'.
No, it actually doesn't give you the real experience of WW2 soldiers at all. Real combat involves far more terror, blunders, uncertainty, and cowardice than this movie is going to show, given that the actual participants are able to influence how the movie is going to present their own actions. Sorry if this doesn't fit with your idea of "history."
Also, these guys are terrible, terrible actors, for the most part. There never is any suspension of disbelief; they behave exactly as you would expect people to behave in a nice, safe, well-controlled re-enactment to behave and, believe it or not, battle is not at all like that.
QuoteAs for 'entertainment'... well, the men of the 1st Para were more interested in showing what they underwent, not in 'amusing the masses', so to say. Unlike Hollywood, who will pop up 'exciting' scenes and make up stuff that never happened just to keep the story 'interesting'.
Actually, the men of 1st Para were interested in establishing the history they wished to become the "official" history, before pesky outsiders with no interest in furthering the interests of the men of 1st para got around to telling a less partial version of the story. It's human enough, and I don't blame them, but you are naive if you think that they were interested in showing the unvarnished truth. they are as likely to "pop up 'exciting' scenes and make up stuff that never happened" as Hollywood, just for different reasons.
The movie is worth seeing for some of the visuals, but anyone who thinks it contains "the real experience of WW2 soldiers" needs to learn a little bit more about both history and human nature.
The first WWII movie I'm aware of that attempts to realistically depict the horrors of war was Battleground (1949). Plus it has Ricardo Friggin' Montalban in it.
Quote from: Maladict on September 20, 2014, 09:17:11 AM
I was there 20 years ago when I lived in Nijmegen.
It was the first time there was a large scale remembrance, the veterans were driven along the route in their old vehicles.
Nijmegen was the first major city, and they evidently were not expecting the tens of thousands of people lining the road applauding them.
There wasn't a dry eye to be seen. :bowler:
Great story, and it had to be awesome being there! Nice tribute to the soldiers by the people. :)
Quote from: derspiess on September 22, 2014, 10:08:13 AM
The first WWII movie I'm aware of that attempts to realistically depict the horrors of war was Battleground (1949). Plus it has Ricardo Friggin' Montalban in it.
True enough, but any attempt (by Hollywood or the 1st Para) to realistically depict the horrors of war will fall far short of the mark. There's simply no way to really understand the horrors without experiencing them first-hand. Think of the PTSD epidemic we would have if Martim
was right and movies really
could show what life in combat was like!
Quote from: grumbler on September 22, 2014, 10:20:50 AM
Quote from: derspiess on September 22, 2014, 10:08:13 AM
The first WWII movie I'm aware of that attempts to realistically depict the horrors of war was Battleground (1949). Plus it has Ricardo Friggin' Montalban in it.
True enough, but any attempt (by Hollywood or the 1st Para) to realistically depict the horrors of war will fall far short of the mark. There's simply no way to really understand the horrors without experiencing them first-hand. Think of the PTSD epidemic we would have if Martim was right and movies really could show what life in combat was like!
Indeed. A friend of mine who was involved in various 'retreat from empire' operations, has mentioned a few times that when he was in Libya a training explosives exercise when wrong and six soldiers lost their lives, nearly decapitated because of the incompetence of an officer.
He was involved in clearing up the incidence, which must have been very grim and it appears it's the one thing thats most deeply affected him from his service. Perhaps because it happened in peacetime too, rather than being shot at in Aden or Northern Ireland.
On one level you can appreciate the impact it might have had, but unless you were there and living in that institution and seeing friends/fellow soldiers killed, a civilian can't fully or even partly empathies.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 22, 2014, 04:45:25 AM
It was pretty decisive in ending the the immediate threat to East Prussia from Russian Armies. Did it win the war? But anytime you destroy a whole field army, I'd say it's pretty decisive.
And the Marne ended any German threat to knock out France by outflanking and surrounding her armies. Germany knocking out France would have basically won the war right there. Russia taking East Prussia would have been a bother but nothing serious...well unless you lived in East Prussia.
Quote from: Jacob on September 21, 2014, 11:10:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2014, 08:03:30 PM
I like how grumbler's variable-geometry posts sweep back when he goes grumblersonic.
What's the most important battle of Languish, I wonder...
The Rose Bowl is more important than the National Championship. Because of tradition and shit.
Quote from: Valmy on September 22, 2014, 11:22:50 AM
And the Marne ended any German threat to knock out France by outflanking and surrounding her armies.
There was no German threat to knock out France by the time the Battle of the Marne started. By that time, the French out-flanked the Germans.
Quote from: derspiess on September 22, 2014, 09:59:04 AM
Also today marks 152 years since the Emancipation Proclamation.
Being the kind of forward thinking man he is, grumbler had freed his twenty years prior.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 22, 2014, 12:56:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 22, 2014, 09:59:04 AM
Also today marks 152 years since the Emancipation Proclamation.
Being the kind of forward thinking man he is, grumbler had freed his twenty years prior.
Yep. Told you to do the same, but did you listen? Noooo, you knew better.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 22, 2014, 12:30:18 PM
Quote from: Jacob on September 21, 2014, 11:10:34 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2014, 08:03:30 PM
I like how grumbler's variable-geometry posts sweep back when he goes grumblersonic.
What's the most important battle of Languish, I wonder...
The Rose Bowl is more important than the National Championship. Because of tradition and shit.
Yes.
I missed the anniversary of Chickamagua. :(