70 Years Ago This Week Operation Market Garden

[Razgovory]

It was pretty decisive in ending the the immediate threat to East Prussia from Russian Armies.  Did it win the war?  But anytime you destroy a whole field army, I'd say it's pretty decisive.

[Martim Silva]

Finally got around to watching Theirs Is The Glory and agree that it has it moments.  It is very poorly paced, though, and the narration sounds like it was written by somebody who wrote soap commercials for a living.   Production values are about zero, which is what you'd expect for a film shot that year of scarcity.  It also just covers the battle for Arheim, and doesn't really explain why the defeat occurred, just that the Brits were heroes, every chap amongst 'em.  It has some nice visuals, though, for all the lack of camera and sound quality.  I'd say that A Bridge Too Far does a much better job both as history and as entertainment.

Sorry, I should have explained something about the movie: it was done with the full imput of the survivors of the 1st Para Division. It, therefore, focus on their actions at Arnhem, and not on the US Airborne divisions nor on the moves of the XXX Corps. And it doesn't explain why it happened because it is seen from their perspective and because the officers in charge (especially Montgomery) were still very much in charge at the time. Can't ruffle feathers like that.

The 'Poor pacing' and 'seems to have been written by somebody' who doesn't know well hot to write a story was because the troops insisted vehemently on taking an active part on writing the scenes, in order to make sure they were faithful to what happened, and not changed to make 'a nice story'.

As a result, instead of all the nice battle scenes, you have lots of time spent on what, well, a WW2 battle was spent: waiting in positions, exchanging thoughts, jokes, expectation... followed by periods of action and positioning who then subside.

And THAT is the main interest of the movie: instead of giving you the idea Hollywood gave you of what WW2 combat was, it gives you the real experience of WW2 soldiers in those battles. Sorry if the reality doesn't fit your idea of 'history'.

As for 'entertainment'... well, the men of the 1st Para were more interested in showing what they underwent,  not in 'amusing the masses', so to say. Unlike Hollywood, who will pop up 'exciting' scenes and make up stuff that never happened just to keep the story 'interesting'.

It was pretty decisive in ending the the immediate threat to East Prussia from Russian Armies.  Did it win the war?  But anytime you destroy a whole field army, I'd say it's pretty decisive

Not really. Dunkirk destroyed several French armies, not to mention the Belgian one. Did it decide WW2? The East Roman Army was pulverized at Adrianople in 378 AD, yet no massive changes came about from the battle.

Likewise, Verdun and the Somme each cost to each of the participating sides the same amount of losses as the Battle of Stalingrad inflicted on the Germans. Were they decisive?

In the same vein, Tannenberg and the Mazurian Lakes staved off the Russians, but did they decide WWI?

The key for a decisive battle is the strategic impact it had on the conflict. And by destroying the German plans to win the war quickly, the First Battle of the Marne pretty much insured that WWI would turn out the way it did. Had Germany won at the Marne, things would have been quite different indeed.

[Warspite]

Martim, you have a very naive view of what kind of 'realism' would have been permitted on screen by the British army and society in 1947, and indeed what special effects could show. Does anyone bleed out? Is anyone blown apart? Are there any criticisms of the operation?

Theirs is the Glory is a very interesting film but it is not a definitive account, whether for the story or the action.

[derspiess]

Also today marks 152 years since the Emancipation Proclamation.

[grumbler]

And THAT is the main interest of the movie: instead of giving you the idea Hollywood gave you of what WW2 combat was, it gives you the real experience of WW2 soldiers in those battles. Sorry if the reality doesn't fit your idea of 'history'.

No, it actually doesn't give you the real experience of WW2 soldiers at all.  Real combat involves far more terror, blunders, uncertainty, and cowardice than this movie is going to show, given that the actual participants are able to influence how the movie is going to present their own actions.  Sorry if this doesn't fit with your idea of "history."

Also, these guys are terrible, terrible actors, for the most part.  There never is any suspension of disbelief; they behave exactly as you would expect people to behave in a nice, safe, well-controlled re-enactment to behave and, believe it or not, battle is not at all like that.

As for 'entertainment'... well, the men of the 1st Para were more interested in showing what they underwent,  not in 'amusing the masses', so to say. Unlike Hollywood, who will pop up 'exciting' scenes and make up stuff that never happened just to keep the story 'interesting'.

Actually, the men of 1st Para were interested in establishing the history they wished to become the "official" history, before pesky outsiders with no interest in furthering the interests of the men of 1st para got around to telling a less partial version of the story. It's human enough, and I don't blame them, but you are naive if you think that they were interested in showing the unvarnished truth.  they are as likely to "pop up 'exciting' scenes and make up stuff that never happened" as Hollywood, just for different reasons.

The movie is worth seeing for some of the visuals, but anyone who thinks it contains "the real experience of WW2 soldiers" needs to learn a little bit more about both history and human nature.

[derspiess]

The first WWII movie I'm aware of that attempts to realistically depict the horrors of war was Battleground (1949).  Plus it has Ricardo Friggin' Montalban in it.

[KRonn]

I was there 20 years ago when I lived in Nijmegen.
It was the first time there was a large scale remembrance, the veterans were driven along the route in their old vehicles.
Nijmegen was the first major city, and they evidently were not expecting the tens of thousands of people lining the road applauding them.
There wasn't a dry eye to be seen. 

Great story, and it had to be awesome being there! Nice tribute to the soldiers by the people.   

[grumbler]

The first WWII movie I'm aware of that attempts to realistically depict the horrors of war was Battleground (1949).  Plus it has Ricardo Friggin' Montalban in it.

True enough, but any attempt (by Hollywood or the 1st Para) to realistically depict the horrors of war will fall far short of the mark.  There's simply no way to really understand the horrors without experiencing them first-hand.  Think of the PTSD epidemic we would have if Martim was right and movies really could show what life in combat was like!

[mongers]

The first WWII movie I'm aware of that attempts to realistically depict the horrors of war was Battleground (1949).  Plus it has Ricardo Friggin' Montalban in it.

True enough, but any attempt (by Hollywood or the 1st Para) to realistically depict the horrors of war will fall far short of the mark.  There's simply no way to really understand the horrors without experiencing them first-hand.  Think of the PTSD epidemic we would have if Martim was right and movies really could show what life in combat was like!

Indeed. A friend of mine who was involved in various 'retreat from empire' operations, has mentioned a few times that when he was in Libya a training explosives exercise when wrong and six soldiers lost their lives, nearly decapitated because of the incompetence of an officer.
He was involved in clearing up the incidence, which must have been very grim and it appears it's the one thing thats most deeply affected him from his service. Perhaps because it happened in peacetime too, rather than being shot at in Aden or Northern Ireland.

On one level you can appreciate the impact it might have had, but unless you were there and living in that institution and seeing friends/fellow soldiers killed, a civilian can't fully or even partly empathies.

[Valmy]

It was pretty decisive in ending the the immediate threat to East Prussia from Russian Armies.  Did it win the war?  But anytime you destroy a whole field army, I'd say it's pretty decisive.

And the Marne ended any German threat to knock out France by outflanking and surrounding her armies.  Germany knocking out France would have basically won the war right there.  Russia taking East Prussia would have been a bother but nothing serious...well unless you lived in East Prussia.

[CountDeMoney]

I like how grumbler's variable-geometry posts sweep back when he goes grumblersonic.

What's the most important battle of Languish, I wonder...

The Rose Bowl is more important than the National Championship.  Because of tradition and shit.

[grumbler]

And the Marne ended any German threat to knock out France by outflanking and surrounding her armies. 

There was no German threat to knock out France by the time the Battle of the Marne started.  By that time, the French out-flanked the Germans.

[Eddie Teach]

Also today marks 152 years since the Emancipation Proclamation.

Being the kind of forward thinking man he is, grumbler had freed his twenty years prior.

[grumbler]

Also today marks 152 years since the Emancipation Proclamation.

Being the kind of forward thinking man he is, grumbler had freed his twenty years prior.

Yep.  Told you to do the same, but did you listen?  Noooo, you knew better.

[Ed Anger]

I like how grumbler's variable-geometry posts sweep back when he goes grumblersonic.

What's the most important battle of Languish, I wonder...

The Rose Bowl is more important than the National Championship.  Because of tradition and shit.

Yes.