http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/24/brussels-jewish-museum-attack-three-dead
:(
QuoteJewish museum attack leaves three dead in Brussels
Fears of a resurgence in violent antisemitism after gunman opens fire killing three and injuring one on eve of elections
Fears of a resurgence in violent antisemitism were raised after an attack at a Jewish museum in the centre of Brussels on Saturday left three people dead and one badly injured.
The attack, on the eve of federal, regional and European parliamentary elections, prompted Belgium to heighten its terror alert level and increase protection at Jewish buildings and the Israeli embassy.
Speaking at the scene of the attack, Joëlle Milquet, the Belgian interior minister, said it was too early to say whether it was an antisemitic attack but the target suggested "there are strong grounds for presuming so". Belgium's prime minister, Elio Di Rupo, made an announcement expressing support for the Jewish community. "All Belgians are united," he said. Police arrested one suspect and were looking for a second.
Witnesses said two people were seen getting out of car parked near the museum. A gunman then opened fire, shooting indiscriminately before getting away.
A bystander, Alain Sobotik, said he saw the corpses of a woman and a man just inside the doors of the museum.
Didier Reynders, Belgium's foreign minister, was at the scene shortly after the shooting. He said he saw people fleeing and heard shots. He then saw "bodies on the ground in pools of blood" and called emergency services.
"It seems that a car was double-parked and that a person went in and came out of the museum after shots were fired," Reynders said. "You can't help thinking, when you see a Jewish museum, to think about an antisemitic act, but the investigation will tell more."
One witness managed to see the licence plate of the vehicle used in the attack, according to Reynders.
The minister later wrote on Twitter: "I am shocked by the murders committed at the Jewish museum, I am thinking of the victims I saw there and their families."
About 40,000 Jews live in Belgium, half of whom reside in Brussels. According to Viviane Teitelbaum, a member of the Brussels legislature, antisemitic attacks reached a peak in the early 1980s but dropped off before a recent rise in anti-Jewish sentiment. "It has been a very difficult place to live" for Jews, she said, adding that many young people are leaving the country.
Belgian Jewish community leader Joel Rubinfeld said the attack was clearly "a terrorist act" and the result of "a climate of hate".
He said the museum had received no recent threats and that its staff "are in shock".The Jewish Museum of Belgium is located in the fashionable Sablon district in the centre of Brussels, a popular haunt for shoppers and tourists. Police closed off the area around the museum and ambulances and police vans were at the scene.
Nobody cares anymore.
Strange that the article appears so uninterested in who the perps might be.
I care Siege :(
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 07:24:06 PM
Strange that the article appears so uninterested in who the perps might be.
I care Siege :(
Okay, so one person cares. Siege doesn't. He said so himself.
[mongerssuperioritycomplex]
Unbalanced man in a country with a known history of rampant antisemitism; how is it even news anymore?
[/mongerssuperioritycomplex]
Quote from: grumbler on May 25, 2014, 07:29:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 07:24:06 PM
Strange that the article appears so uninterested in who the perps might be.
I care Siege :(
Okay, so one person cares. Siege doesn't. He said so himself.
Hey, Le Grodnard, stop putting words in my mouth that I have not said.
I was expressing my frustration with the quiet indifference for anti-Semitism.
The moment people don't care anymore, is the moment it happens again.
So... were the attackers Muslim or not? Really, that's what everyone wants to know.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 25, 2014, 07:38:53 PM
So... were the attackers Muslim or not? Really, that's what everyone wants to know.
Yeah are these nationalist Flems or other sorts of Euros? Native born Muslims or foreign jihadists or what?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 25, 2014, 07:31:08 PM
[mongerssuperioritycomplex]
Unbalanced man in a country with a known history of rampant antisemitism; how is it even news anymore?
[/mongerssuperioritycomplex]
I was going to do something similar. :D
Quote from: Ideologue on May 25, 2014, 07:43:27 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 25, 2014, 07:31:08 PM
[mongerssuperioritycomplex]
Unbalanced man in a country with a known history of rampant antisemitism; how is it even news anymore?
[/mongerssuperioritycomplex]
I was going to do something similar. :D
He's such a moralizing shit sometimes, isn't he?
You need to add the extra space at the end of the sentence before the question mark for the full Mongers effect.
Like this ?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 25, 2014, 07:44:30 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on May 25, 2014, 07:43:27 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 25, 2014, 07:31:08 PM
[mongerssuperioritycomplex]
Unbalanced man in a country with a known history of rampant antisemitism; how is it even news anymore?
[/mongerssuperioritycomplex]
I was going to do something similar. :D
He's such a moralising shit sometimes, isn't he ?
:lol:
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2014, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on May 25, 2014, 07:38:53 PM
So... were the attackers Muslim or not? Really, that's what everyone wants to know.
Yeah are these nationalist Flems or other sorts of Euros? Native born Muslims or foreign jihadists or what?
nationalist flemish in don't attack jewish museums or their visitors. We go to the ballotbox and vote.
that said: it's Belgium, where the justice-system barely works anymore. No one will be found, and if someone is found no conviction will probably be managed for some reason (probably blunders)
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 25, 2014, 07:47:50 PM
You need to add the extra space at the end of the sentence before the question mark for the full Mongers effect.
How French of him... :hmm:
how is the coverage of this comparing with the two boys caught on camera getting shot at the prison in the west bank?
Quote from: Viking on May 26, 2014, 07:17:48 AM
how is the coverage of this comparing with the two boys caught on camera getting shot at the prison in the west bank?
Here it has been infinitely more covered.
Quote from: Viking on May 26, 2014, 07:17:48 AM
how is the coverage of this comparing with the two boys caught on camera getting shot at the prison in the west bank?
Is going to a museum in Belgum now about as dangerous as going to a riot in the West Bank? :hmm:
Quote from: Malthus on May 26, 2014, 08:54:06 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 26, 2014, 07:17:48 AM
how is the coverage of this comparing with the two boys caught on camera getting shot at the prison in the west bank?
Is going to a museum in Belgum now about as dangerous as going to a riot in the West Bank? :hmm:
I was almost hit by a car going way past the speed limit when I was in that area of Brussels. Turns out the the Secret Service can do whatever they want when there's a president coming to visit.
Thanks Obama.
Quote from: Malthus on May 26, 2014, 08:54:06 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 26, 2014, 07:17:48 AM
how is the coverage of this comparing with the two boys caught on camera getting shot at the prison in the west bank?
Is going to a museum in Belgum now about as dangerous as going to a riot in the West Bank? :hmm:
dunno, how many people go to museums in belgium vs rioting on the west bank?
Quote from: Siege on May 25, 2014, 07:34:17 PM
Hey, Le Grodnard, stop putting words in my mouth that I have not said.
You said
Quote from: Siege on May 25, 2014, 06:53:08 PM
Nobody cares anymore.
if you actually did care, that would make your claim that no one cared a lie.
Yeah, I know, you were engaging in emo hyperbole, but we don't let Timmy get away with that, so why should we let you?
QuoteI was expressing my frustration with the quiet indifference for anti-Semitism.
The moment people don't care anymore, is the moment it happens again.
Actually, it happens all the time, even when people care. It's just like any other form of racism.
think it's four people dead.
That's what my paper is saying
Quote from: Josephus on May 26, 2014, 09:46:28 AM
think it's four people dead.
That's what my paper is saying
Yeah the 4th is now dead. :(
Quote from: Malthus on May 26, 2014, 08:54:06 AM
Quote from: Viking on May 26, 2014, 07:17:48 AM
how is the coverage of this comparing with the two boys caught on camera getting shot at the prison in the west bank?
Is going to a museum in Belgum now about as dangerous as going to a riot in the West Bank? :hmm:
hardly, though if I was a jew I'd not go to significant parts of Brussels, or Marrakech-on-the-Zenne as it is sometimes called.
Back in 2007, some parts of Brussels did look like Barbès-Rochechouart in Paris or the 10. Bezirk in Vienna.
well look at that: seems they actually managed to capture a suspect.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 27, 2014, 11:45:37 AM
well look at that: seems they actually managed to capture a suspect.
Is there any info available on him?
Quote from: derspiess on May 27, 2014, 11:56:48 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 27, 2014, 11:45:37 AM
well look at that: seems they actually managed to capture a suspect.
Is there any info available on him?
Perhaps his father has been an assistant director on a popular film....
:D
Via Jeffrey Goldberg, 'Amir Oren is trying to tell us something, within the confines of censorship rules, about the victims in Brussels':
QuoteThe Brussels mystery: Was shooting anti-Semitism or part of spy games?
Considering how professional the shooter looked on footage, and the fact two of those killed were former Israeli civil servants, maybe the attack was actually a battle in the covert war.
By Amir Oren | May 27, 2014 | 2:00 AM | 13
There was no practical reason for a hostile state like Iran or an enemy organization like Hezbollah to try and harm either Emanuel or Mira Riva – both former civil servants – at the Jewish Museum in Brussels. Both were accountants who were employed separately by government bodies. They had no substantive connection to the core issues of either Iran or Hezbollah; their tools were numbers and computers, not cloaks and daggers.
Emanuel Riva came to Nativ, the liaison office for Jews from the former Soviet Union, from the Finance Ministry, where he met members of the security and intelligence community and the foreign service, and was in contact with senior government officials. Afterward, Mira was also hired by a government agency. There, and also when she was stationed at one of the agency's missions in Europe, her post was solely administrative.
She wasn't Mata Hari, or Sylvia Raphael, or Cindy of the Mordechai Vanunu affair. Even in Golani, after all, there is a crucial difference between the commander of the reconnaissance force and the unit's paymaster.
Still, it's possible that the murder in Brussels was not a hate crime or an anti-Semitic attack, but a targeted assault. This possibility is strengthened by the video of the killer's actions. He was caught by the cameras looking like a professional, as if this was a settling of scores. Not the assassination of accountants, but a battle in a covert war, though perhaps there was a misidentification of the intended victims.
After all, such things have happened to organizations far more sophisticated than Iran and Hezbollah – like the Mossad, for instance, in its mistaken killing of Moroccan waiter Ahmed Bushiki in Lillehammer, Norway in 1973. Bushiki apparently looked to those tracking him like the double of Black September leader Ali Hassan Salameh. At the time, Brussels was one of the way stations in the Mossad's bloody campaign against the various PLO factions throughout Europe. Tzadok Ofir, who controlled several agents, was seriously wounded there in an ambush by an Arab source who betrayed him.
Israel has double representation in Brussels – its embassy for Belgium, and its embassy to the European Union and NATO. In recent years, Brussels has been one of the most important postings in the foreign service, second only to Washington, and some of Israel's top diplomats – including Ephraim Halevy (before he was appointed Mossad head) – were posted there.
Senior Israeli representatives are closely guarded by the Belgian authorities. Even a short trip with them to the local Foreign Ministry is a whole security operation.
Brussels is both a very international city and a very Muslim one. The headquarters of NATO, with its 28 member states and more than a dozen partners and observers, is located in one of its suburbs.
In the downtown area lies one of the centers of the European Union (which migrates periodically to Strasbourg). Bus No. 12 from the airport, which passes the NATO command center, full of officials from Europe and North America, continues downtown to the EU offices through neighborhoods that are clearly dominated by North Africans and others, with veiled women seen in the streets, stores and restaurants.
It's easy to hide in this Arabic-European capital with diplomatic mail and passports from various countries and its supportive environment, which conceals and whisks you away.
Databases compromised in recent years (see Edward Snowden) – both those that have been published and those that have not – included tens of thousands of names, some with similar and erroneous spellings. They are liable to help evildoers track targets, correct or mistaken, and attack them, either as part of a plan or on an improvised basis, because the victims met acquaintances or colleagues who were in the trackers' sights.
There's been a bit more open reporting outside Israel that the woman was, reportedly, an accountant for Mossad in Europe based in Berlin. As he hints this could be a Hezbollah hit.
I only recently saw the video the Belgian police released (here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duNN200AMq0 ) and to my untrained eye you can see why people are saying it looks professional.
He certainly didn't dilly-dally. Does look coldly professional, but if he hit the person/people he was planning to hit, he must have had some damn good intel & preparation. He was in and out in no time.
The killer could also have been a robot sent from the future to kill the parents of enemies of the cybernetic rule.
Quote from: derspiess on May 27, 2014, 11:56:48 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on May 27, 2014, 11:45:37 AM
well look at that: seems they actually managed to capture a suspect.
Is there any info available on him?
according to eyewitnesses: not white.
from what I read they were looking for someone with an algerian(?) background.
Re: Shelfs conspiracy theory (and that's not a derogatory term in this case, it might be real conspiracy)
the most similar case to this I know of is the murder of Anne Orderud Paust who was a senior civil servant in norways foreign ministry. A car bomb that failed to detonate was found in her car and later she and her parents were found murdered in their home. The BBC did speculate that it was something spy related too.
It turns out it was over a dispute about a land inheritance.
the suspect they had has been released according to the news. Didn't hear why as my kid was making a lot of noise
Guy was caught. French Muslim.
Who'd fought with jihadis in Syria. Which is interesting.
There's been a couple of arrests in the UK now of people either returning from or going to Syria.
Some American blew himself up in Syria last week. Maybe we should start selling nerve gas to Assad.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 01, 2014, 11:22:10 AM
Who'd fought with jihadis in Syria. Which is interesting.
which is not really unexpected.
if one allows an intolerant religion/ideology like this to exist in one's society, one shouldn't be surpised one will get hit eventually
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 01, 2014, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 01, 2014, 11:22:10 AM
Who'd fought with jihadis in Syria. Which is interesting.
which is not really unexpected.
if one allows an intolerant religion/ideology like this to exist in one's society, one shouldn't be surpised one will get hit eventually
:huh: I don't think Assad was exactly surprised.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 01, 2014, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 01, 2014, 11:22:10 AM
Who'd fought with jihadis in Syria. Which is interesting.
which is not really unexpected.
if one allows an intolerant religion/ideology like this to exist in one's society, one shouldn't be surpised one will get hit eventually
I don't think he was a member of the Front National
Well if this guy did go on Jihad to Syria, I guess he picked up the requisite ethnic killing/cleansing skills that made him look 'professional' ?
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 01, 2014, 11:36:40 AM
if one allows an intolerant religion/ideology like this to exist in one's society, one shouldn't be surprised one will get hit eventually
And now they're getting free training abroad, in any one of the various jihad battlegrounds one can find in that region, before returning in the West where they can put their skills to good use - that is against us.
I read last week the UN is asking western countries to take many more of the Syrian refugees - imagine that: more battle hardened jihadis in our midst. <_<
G.
Quote from: Grallon on June 01, 2014, 05:26:38 PM
I read last week the UN is asking western countries to take many more of the Syrian refugees - imagine that: more battle hardened jihadis in our midst. <_<
Any particular reason why Western Countries have to take them? Why can't China or Japan or India or South Africa or something? Or is everybody taking tons of these guys and the West needs to take their fair share?
We should.
There's over two million in the region which is a huge strain on Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan especially. So far the US has offered to take up to 2000 and the UK's volunteered for 500 (Nigel Farage suggested accepting all Syrian Christian refugees :lol:). I remember seeing stats on the West in general and at that point only Sweden and Germany had actually done anything.
QuoteWhy can't China or Japan or India or South Africa or something?
Well India's dirt poor - on last estimates poorer than Syria before the war - South Africa and China are richer, but still very poor. Japan should do something
So the guy got caught in a routine check in Marseille after coming by bus from Amsterdam. Buses coming from there are the most checked, for drug reasons. Not so professional after all. Buses are even monitored in general than trains (Eurostar being the exception), not just for Amsterdam.
Quote from: Valmy on June 01, 2014, 06:22:01 PM
Quote from: Grallon on June 01, 2014, 05:26:38 PM
I read last week the UN is asking western countries to take many more of the Syrian refugees - imagine that: more battle hardened jihadis in our midst. <_<
Any particular reason why Western Countries have to take them? Why can't China or Japan or India or South Africa or something? Or is everybody taking tons of these guys and the West needs to take their fair share?
I'm not seeing why we should be taking refugees either.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 01, 2014, 06:28:24 PM
So far the US has offered to take up to 2000
That should only cover about 130 convenience stores and 22 Dunkin' Donuts franchises.
There are 40000+ Somali's in Ohio. Normally, as the king of tolerance, I wouldn't mind. But these fuckers are gonna shoot up a mall.
Somalis are some icky-pooh stank ass motherfuckers, even when they've been here a while.
They also have weird misshapen heads.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 01, 2014, 08:43:39 PM
There are 40000+ Somali's in Ohio. Normally, as the king of tolerance, I wouldn't mind. But these fuckers are gonna shoot up a mall.
That is a lot.
For one mall, yeah.
I thought it was illegal to transport Africans to the United States.
:lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 01, 2014, 06:28:24 PM
Well India's dirt poor - on last estimates poorer than Syria before the war - South Africa and China are richer, but still very poor. Japan should do something
Any particular reason refugees have to be given the opportunity to be rich? It is not like China, South Africa, and India lack plenty of opportunity for anybody with ambition and talent. I would sure the hell prefer to live in one of those places than Syria.
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2014, 08:46:20 AM
Any particular reason refugees have to be given the opportunity to be rich? It is not like China, South Africa, and India lack plenty of opportunity for anybody with ambition and talent. I would sure the hell prefer to live in one of those places than Syria.
Sheilbh, like many brits, appears to be afflicted with an accute case of White Man's guilt syndrome - where the crimes of the West have to be atoned for in perpetuity. Hence Third World strays should always be allowed to come here and bring us ever closer to the shithole status of the countries these refugees originate from.
And it goes without saying Muslims are the worst possible candidates.
G.
Quote from: Grallon on June 02, 2014, 08:58:08 AM
Sheilbh, like many brits, appears to be afflicted with an accute case of White Man's guilt syndrome - where the crimes of the West have to be atoned for in perpetuity.
But that has nothing to do with this. My question was why the UN was specifically asking Western Countries. That makes no sense to me, there is nothing about Western Nations that make them particularly well suited to take Syrian refugees. In fact, our cultural values seem particularly poorly suited to take them unless these are particularly Godless Syrians
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2014, 09:08:35 AM
Quote from: Grallon on June 02, 2014, 08:58:08 AM
Sheilbh, like many brits, appears to be afflicted with an accute case of White Man's guilt syndrome - where the crimes of the West have to be atoned for in perpetuity.
But that has nothing to do with this. My question was why the UN was specifically asking Western Countries. That makes no sense to me, there is nothing about Western Nations that make them particularly well suited to take Syrian refugees. In fact, our cultural values seem particularly poorly suited to take them unless these are particularly Godless Syrians
Largely economic, it's quiet expensive to look after or settle refugees.
Now that Lebanon and Jordan are full to bursting, the next places are further afield and flying them out is a costly endeavor in itself.
However it's financed, moving refugees to China, India or Latin America will be rather expensive, so to some extend it's easier to 'badger' Western governments, especially if they have tradition ties to the region or have existing small immigrant communities of the country themselves.
Well they could just put them on a train or a bus and send them to China or India.
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2014, 09:08:35 AM
But that has nothing to do with this. My question was why the UN was specifically asking Western Countries. That makes no sense to me, there is nothing about Western Nations that make them particularly well suited to take Syrian refugees. In fact, our cultural values seem particularly poorly suited to take them unless these are particularly Godless Syrians
Because we're generous and caring. And also easily exploited.
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2014, 09:42:51 AM
Well they could just put them on a train or a bus and send them to China or India.
Those would be the bus and train services traveling through Iraq, Iran and then Pakistan etc ? :hmm:
Quote from: mongers on June 02, 2014, 09:51:25 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2014, 09:42:51 AM
Well they could just put them on a train or a bus and send them to China or India.
Those would be the bus and train services traveling through Iraq, Iran and then Pakistan etc ? :hmm:
Would there not be? I mean those people all need to move around between cities and I doubt car ownership is very high.
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2014, 08:46:20 AM
Any particular reason refugees have to be given the opportunity to be rich? It is not like China, South Africa, and India lack plenty of opportunity for anybody with ambition and talent. I would sure the hell prefer to live in one of those places than Syria.
It's not about the opportunity for them to be rich but the cost to the state.
Practically refugees are a burden on accepting states. Some will have the luck to get opportunities, some will have talent (some very few will have both) many will just be traumatised and afraid. Is there a Syrian community in any of those countries? How likely is it they'd already know or easily be able to learn Mandarin or Hindi, far less get a job? It's difficult to see them easily or quickly becoming economically self-supporting in the short-run (I'm not sure whether that would come before or after an end to the Syrian civil war).
Also I don't know about those countries but many places make it difficult for refugees, so that it's not a backdoor for economic migration. In the UK for example refugees legally aren't allowed to work and basically have to live where they can, unless they get a council house in which case they'll live where they're told. If they're trying to get rich they're breaking the conditions of their asylum and could be deported.
So it's not an issue of whether they should have the opportunity to get rich but that they're a burden on the state and it seems perverse to put that burden on government's that aren't rich enough to provide education or healthcare for their citizens. Which is actually what happens; most refugees settle in their immediate neighbourhood and war, civil conflict, famine and drought tend to happen in poorer parts of the world - the largest refugee populations are in places like Congo, Lebanon, Chad etc. Which is why Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon (with some monetary aid from the rest of the world) are having to deal with the majority of the 2.5 million refugees from the war.
A lot of the calls for the West to do more come from those governments because, understandably, they've got a basic humanitarian duty to look after these people but it's expensive and very unpopular at home. The UN has basically said that these countries' capacity to accept more refugees is at breaking point and given that this isn't a short-term humanitarian crisis, but ongoing for the foreseeable future other UN members need to accept more. My view is that's right. We should accept more especially the US and the UK: France have accepted 3500, Germany 5000, Sweden 14000. So far the UK and the US have accepted around 100 each and said they'd be willing to accept 500 and 2000 respectively.